Interesting news item here today


PDA






tom11235
March 30, 2011, 02:42 AM
On the news tonight here in New Zealand, a story about kindergartens here issuing "Gun licenses" to children, who were not allowed to pretend to shoot things with toy guns or even point their fingers and yell bang unless they had one, and they were not allow to pretend to shoot each other. I found a news website with info about it.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/4824535/Kindy-kids-get-gun-licences

"The licences were introduced at Te Atatu Village Kindergarten last month, after a group of rowdy boys pretended to shoot all the other children with their fingers."

I thought is seems a bit silly, opinions?

If you enjoyed reading about "Interesting news item here today" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
SWAT1911
March 30, 2011, 03:08 AM
Nice to see the world is still slipping into a politcal correctness coma...
Definatly not saying teaching firearm safety for kids isint important but
Boys will be boys, we all know playing "cops an robbers" or "war" as kids makes up grow up to be mass killers right?

RS14
March 30, 2011, 03:11 AM
Central North Island Kindergarten Association general manager Jan Ballantyne said labelling gun play as "bad" and banning it sent a mixed message to children whose fathers were hunters, farmers or in the armed services.

"For us to be making value judgments like that is quite wrong, but children need to know that there are rules. It's important for children to know, yes, there are guns, they can kill, and there are rules around that."

...

"Children will always make guns, whether it's in front of you or behind your back, so we thought it was better to teach them about safety."

They are so sensible I had to check to make sure this wasn't a joke.

Ok, perhaps it's a bit silly to prohibit children from playing war, but it does seem like a good way to emphasize the importance of gun safety from an early age. Teach them muzzle discipline with everything even resembling a gun, and perhaps they'll grow up to take it seriously.

Thanks for sharing.

Nice to see the world is still slipping into a politcal correctness coma...
Boys will be boys, we all know playing "cops an robbers" or "war" as kids makes up grow up to be mass killers right?

No, I don't think that's what they're asserting. It has always seemed slightly odd to me that we let kids shoot one another with all sorts of toy guns, when this is totally at odds with the rules we then impose for real guns. It's a division in parenting style that has come up before (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144463). So while yes, it may be impossible to prohibit them from playing war, having to follow the rules around adults, at least, may drill them into them effectively at an early age, which I hold to be a good thing.

tom11235
March 30, 2011, 03:23 AM
"Boys will be boys, we all know playing "cops an robbers" or "war" as kids makes up grow up to be mass killers right?"

That certainly seems to be the reasoning here, I mean I understand teaching kids about gun safety is of vital importance, especially in countries that do no require a (real) license to own a firearm, but I think Pre-school is a little too early to start

ATBackPackin
March 30, 2011, 03:50 AM
If you don't let kids be kids they will never be well adjusted adults. Millions upon millions of kids have played war or cowboys and indians and have never committed an act of violence. Period.

Gromky
March 30, 2011, 03:52 AM
That certainly seems to be the reasoning here, I mean I understand teaching kids about gun safety is of vital importance, especially in countries that do no require a (real) license to own a firearm, but I think Pre-school is a little too early to start

If they're shooting anything, even an air rifle, it makes sense as a parent. I don't have any specific plans on when my daughter will shoot, but it certainly isn't going to start when she repeats things like "I kill you!" she picks up at daycare (she's 3).

It's a case of political correctness gone mad. But kids today generally just see firearms glorified in movies, on TV, and in video games. Most of them have no exposure to the reality that they're incredibly dangerous tools. In elementary school I had a classmate accidentally shot by a friend while hunting, before age limits were raised. That's a horror I do not wish upon anyone. Let them play, but that had better stop when they pick up even a Daisy pellet gun.

So let them play and have fun, but teach them properly as well.

ATBackPackin
March 30, 2011, 04:22 AM
Let them play, but that had better stop when they pick up even a Daisy pellet gun.


Agreed.

Gromky
March 30, 2011, 04:36 AM
ATBackPackin the key is that most of the kids probably aren't around firearms, so it doesn't matter. But it seems to be getting harder to have proper education...the media is clueless, movies are utter lies, books are often terrible. Heck, the shooting shows like Top Shot are flat out wrong about details. I wouldn't trust my kid to go shoot with another parent, unless I knew he or she was entirely responsible.

Life is now complicated and ugly. Perhaps it was always so, and we pretended it wasn't.

Old Shooter
March 30, 2011, 08:41 AM
Teaching children at an early age that you do not point guns at people or shoot other people is not a bad idea.

The kids whose parents have guns in the house and use them, such as the farmers and hunters, should be getting this information from their parents, kids who don't live in that sort of environment only get to see the TV and video game side of it but probably not much in the way of instructions. The parents of some kids probably don't pay any atention to what their kids are doing anyway.

Hopefully, if these kids find a gun or happen to be with another who has a gun with them they will know how to behave safely around it and not become a victim of an "accidental" shooting.

And I'll bet that after school these boys and girls will still go outside and play army, it's just that in real life and at school they now know to be careful with guns.

strmday
March 30, 2011, 08:50 AM
I don't buy into this crap that today's kids are any dumber than we were as children.
Most of us played some form of cowboys/indians, cops/robbers, or war when we were kids. We shot at one another with fingers, sticks, and some pretty realistic toy guns. Yet most of us managed to make the transition to real firearms without shooting one another or breaking the rules of firearm safety.
My kids still shoot one another with Nerf guns but would never point a real gun at something they don't want to destroy. They UNDERSTAND the difference between imagination and reality just like we did.

ATBackPackin
March 30, 2011, 09:20 AM
We teach our children that movies and TV shows are different from reality. So why is it so hard for some people to understand that kids can differentiate between play guns and real guns if they are taught. People and kids will only live up to the standards that we set for them. In my opinion a lot of people are so afraid of guns that they never teach their kids about them, mostly because they themselves do not know. So all they tell them is that if you ever see a gun don't touch it, if they tell them that. I'm not saying there should be Gun Shooting 101 in elementary school, but I do believe that children should be taught at least the four golden rules of guns. It is also our responsibility as parents that our children do not have access to real guns without our supervision.

Sam1911
March 30, 2011, 09:33 AM
I see it as fairly positive. Actually, reading Mr. Ballantyne's words about guns being an important and appropriate part of their lives, I think it's VERY positive.

Kids will be kids, of course, but mine are carefully instructed not to 'shoot' each other with toy guns. They have enough exposure to the real thing, that I'd much rather go overboard on safety-consciousness than have to un-learn sloppy gun-handling on the firing line.

Owen Sparks
March 30, 2011, 12:50 PM
What is a toy gun for?

Sam1911
March 30, 2011, 01:23 PM
What is a toy gun for? Wow, good question!

Toys are mock-ups of real tools and every-day items which lack the value or danger associated with their real counterpart, and which allow children and neophytes to obtain familiarity with the principles of use associated with that item and practice the basics of the associated skills without risk of loss or damage to the real item, or danger from mistakes in its use. A toy kitchen set lets kids play at making dinner without risk of hurting themselves, wasting food, or burning down the house -- if they should, through ignorance or carelessness, not follow the correct procedures. A toy gun lets kids enjoy practicing handling a weapon without endangering anyone if they should -- through ignorance or carelessness -- forget the safety rules associated with a gun.

TexasRifleman
March 30, 2011, 01:40 PM
A toy gun lets kids enjoy practicing handling a weapon without endangering anyone if they should -- through ignorance or carelessness -- forget the safety rules associated with a gun.

I'm torn on this one. How many of us played with toy guns and didn't pretend to shoot each other? "Cowboys and Indians", "War", etc.

These kinds of things are part of play. It's part of learning to play in ways that might not be appropriate as adults, that's how children learn to tell the difference and then grow into know what not to do as much as what TO do.

I shot my friends a thousand times with my cardboard Tommy Gun after watching Rat Patrol. I have yet to shoot anyone in real life with a Tommy Gun.

Like I say, I'm torn on this one. Also the subtle brainwash here that you have to get "permission" to touch a gun makes it seem natural. Kids grow up believing that having to get permission to own a gun is "business as usual".

So much for "Shall not be infringed" if it were to come to the US.

Many things about this bother me.

Sam1911
March 30, 2011, 02:02 PM
I see where you are coming from, but I'm more comfortable with a kid understanding that they must ask permission to use a gun -- as a kid -- with the understanding that with adulthood comes greater freedom, than I am with kids having to unlearn physical bad habits.

This sums up my own philosophy exactly:
but children need to know that there are rules. It's important for children to know, yes, there are guns, they can kill, and there are rules around that."
...

"Children will always make guns, whether it's in front of you or behind your back, so we thought it was better to teach them about safety."

When I was a kid, we did lots of "bang-you're dead!" play. No harm done, that I can see, but I'd rather use the toys as teaching tools than more mindless objects of entertainment.

Now my situation may be strange. All but one of my kids had shot real guns before they owned any toy ones -- or even made their own. That probably colors my view.

TexasRifleman
March 30, 2011, 02:17 PM
All but one of my kids had shot real guns before they owned any toy ones -- or even made their own. That probably colors my view.


Ahh now we are getting somewhere. YOU did that, the parent. Not a mandatory government program applied to everyone equally.

I think maybe that's my problem with this. Government doing what parents should.

Sam1911
March 30, 2011, 02:29 PM
Oh. Oh, yes. I see where you're coming from. No, I'm not in favor of the bureacracy handing this down from on high.

Though I am quite happy to hear the government official make a statement which would give Rebecca Peters and IANSA so much heartburn. :)

Rail Driver
March 30, 2011, 02:37 PM
Ahh now we are getting somewhere. YOU did that, the parent. Not a mandatory government program applied to everyone equally.

I think maybe that's my problem with this. Government doing what parents should.

This!

Whatever happened to parents teaching their kids the proper way to speak, act, live and (how to) think for themselves (not what to think)? I try hard every day to show my kids by example, and to explain things to them as clearly as I can so that they understand. I want my kids to be brought up better than I was, and I'm the only one that can (or should) do that.

Claude Clay
March 30, 2011, 03:26 PM
news travels faster in the direction of the International Date Line.

its already April, 1st by their watch

USAF_Vet
March 30, 2011, 03:27 PM
My kids, my step son in particular, really enjoy their play guns. But they also know the difference between what is a toy and what is real. They know they don't touch a real gun without permission, and that if they come across someone doing something dangerous, or found a real gun left unattended, they know to leave and get an adult. Now I hope in reality they would actually do that. They don't touch my guns without permission, but all they have to do is ask if they want to hold them or shoot them. Guns aren't taboo, and never will be in my house.

When it comes to toy guns, yes, kids point them at other kids, trigger discipline is awful, and pretty much every one of the rules flies out the window. I'm not going to be such a jerk that I'm going to enforce firearms safety rules on toy guns. Let them have fun and use their imagination with their toys. But make sure they know the difference.

mokin
March 30, 2011, 04:02 PM
For me, this thread is timely and interesting. Just last night I was reading my four year old daughter a story about friendship that had a lot of safety as sort of a secondary story line. One of the cautions along the safety story was "don't touch guns". When I asked her what to do if she finds a gun she said "Tell a grown up". I was proud of her. It isn't a long stretch of the imagination for her and some playmates to find a gun around here. I hope, if that situation occurs, she will do the right thing. I've let her handle some of my guns and we've talked about guns. I think I'm doing what I can to satisfy her curiosity about firearms. I'm not sure what other parents are doing. It seems like I read on this forum that gun safety was something that should be taught in school. Maybe, here it is.

Anyway, to make a short response long, depending on what this "permiting" process might entail, I think it is a good move. Although I don't agree with it, in many parts of this country, permits are a fact of life for gun owners.

ATBackPackin
March 30, 2011, 04:50 PM
Of course children should be taught the proper way to handle firearms. I also think that this should start at home when the parents think that their child is mature enough. At that point they will also understand the difference between a toy gun and a firearm.

But come on, a boy can't point his finger at his buddy and say "bang bang, your dead". What's next, girls can't play with dolls because it promotes having sex and getting pregnant so they can have a real baby???

preachnhunt
March 30, 2011, 05:30 PM
Should we make them use turn signals on their toy cars?

Manco
March 30, 2011, 06:43 PM
Eh, I don't like it. Aside from the licensing aspects, in some ways it puts pretend guns on the same level as real guns, and denies the real purpose of guns, which is killing living things, including people, when used for that purpose by people. That's almost as bad as the long-running fallacy that guns somehow kill all by themselves.

Pretend guns don't actually kill anything, so it's OK to use them to pretend to kill other people as a part of playing. Real guns can kill for real, so they're only to be used when you really need to kill a person or an animal. That's not so hard to comprehend by those--including children--who understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and that killing people is bad unless you have a mighty powerful justification for it.

As for children being dumber today than they were in the past, if there is any truth to that, it would not be because of anything inherent to children, but rather the fact that we treat and teach them as though they were dumber than we were--sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy right there. :rolleyes:

Gordon_Freeman
March 30, 2011, 07:51 PM
I plan on letting my kids play with toy guns all they want. They can learn gun safety with real guns.

bhk
March 31, 2011, 08:43 AM
I am in my 60s now. My mother was on the high school rifle team and my dad an occassional shooter. My parents allowed toy guns in the house, but we were strickly told not to point them at anyone. I grew up playing cowboys and indians and missing everything I shot at (!) because I always aimed an inch or two off target. I did claim they were hits, though. Kind of weird, I guess, but I sure have had good muzzle control my entire life.

As I grew older, I have had real problems with the nerf games and (especially) the paintball games. They make me feel extremely uncomfortable! Just a hang up due to my upbringing. I was not so strict with my own kids and allowed paintball, so I am not endorsing the way my parents taught me. It is a part of who I am, though. No need to worry about where my guns are pointed!! I also feel it a little strange that I have no problems with self-defense training and my participation in games like IDPA. I guess my brain does not process a 'bad guy' as an off limit target.

If you enjoyed reading about "Interesting news item here today" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!