Who Has To Eat The Cost Of A Lost/Stolen Gun


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Animal Mother
March 30, 2011, 07:53 PM
I've got a hypothetical situation that I'm curious about. In this scenario a gun is put up for online auction by an FFL dealer and is purchased by an individual. This individual purchases the firearm using a credit card, and the FFL dealer ships the gun to the buyer's FFL dealer of choice without insurance using UPS or FedEx. However, while the gun is in transit, it is lost/stolen. I understand that UPS or FedEx will reimburse uninsured packages for up to $100, but who has to eat the remaining cost of the gun? Is the dealer responsible for the gun until it is transfered to the buyer, or is the buyer responsible for the gun once they have paid for it?

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Zundfolge
March 30, 2011, 07:54 PM
Until the gun is received by the buyer its the responsibility of the seller.

This is why we insure shipped guns.

If I bought a gun from you and it got lost during shipment and you refused to refund my money I'd accuse you of mail fraud and involve the FBI.

ants
March 30, 2011, 08:04 PM
There is no federal law on who ultimately eats the cost of lost freight.
Their are rules on who files the claim. But not on who takes the loss.
That's between buyer & seller. You best make it clear in the purchase agreement.

Don't forget that insurance does NOT include the shipping cost.

Carriers (Fedex, UPS, who ever) only honor claims for the value of the merchandise, not the shipping cost.
They get their money, even if they lose the freight completely.

Don't forget that your credit card issuer may help you recover part or all of your loss.

tazbigdog
March 30, 2011, 09:44 PM
Wow, that sucks. You as the seller would eat the loss. ALWAYS ship the item with insurance!

EddieNFL
March 30, 2011, 09:48 PM
This is why I rarely buy from sellers that don't accept CCs (never big tix items). If it doesn't arrive, I'm contacting my CC company for a refund.

DoubleTapDrew
March 30, 2011, 10:50 PM
I understand that UPS or FedEx will reimburse uninsured packages for up to $100, but who has to eat the remaining cost of the gun?
They automatically insure the first $100. More insurance can be purchased for about 50 cents per $100 (although most sellers charge $1 per $100). When I worked in the shipping dept. we always insured things over $100 automatically. Saving $5 on shipping isn't worth risking being out $900 on a $1k part that was "lost" in transit. The seller is responsible until it's in the buyer's hands.

wep45
March 30, 2011, 10:52 PM
ship a firearm uninsured????????????:neener:

Alberforth
March 30, 2011, 11:00 PM
I don't know what the conventions are in the gun world, but in other online auctions it's common for sellers to state explicitly that insurance is the buyer's choice, and if you don't buy insurance and the package disappears you are out of luck.

However, if I remember right, in cases where there is no explicit policy the seller is out of luck if they can't prove that the package arrived and the buyer calls foul.

But all this is hearsay. Check the shipper's and courier's policies about guns specifically. Don't UPS and FedEx have special rules about guns?

crankyoldlady
March 30, 2011, 11:40 PM
Insurance protects the seller, not the buyer. Until the transfer takes place it is the seller's property. Why should the buyer take the loss?

Remo223
March 30, 2011, 11:57 PM
If you can prove it was lost while in the possession of a dealer, then they are responsible...and possibly criminally liable. I think. In the very least you could take them to civil court.

Bubbles
March 31, 2011, 09:12 AM
We ship everything insured with signature required, no exceptions. It's stated in the ads that those costs are including in the price we've listed for shipping.

woad_yurt
March 31, 2011, 12:57 PM
The seller is the one who hires a shipper and is thus the only one allowed to make a claim for lost goods. The buyer's part of a deal is to provide an accurate ship-to address and to pay the agreed-upon purchase price, no more. The seller must then deliver the item. If the seller ships it and it goes AWOL, the seller needs to refund the buyer and then go after the shipper with a claim.

If a seller ships uninsured and it doesn't get to the buyer, the seller is still responsible because they didn't do what they were supposed to do, namely, get the item to the one who paid for it. They can say what they want but they're still responsible. Now, collecting from them may be a supreme hassle but, yes, they are responsible.

Have you ever gone into a dry cleaner's and seen the sign that says "not responsible for lost or damged merchandise?" Well, despite the sign, they are responsible.

Anyone can say what for what they they will or won't be responsible but it won't change the reality. I can hang a blinking, 4'X8' neon sign in my living room saying that I am not to be held responsible for any unprovoked aggravated batteries that I may commit on my guests but I could still be held responsible nevertheless. It's the same with any seller-shipper who says that they are not responsible for delivery. They are.

ants
March 31, 2011, 01:36 PM
I see some misinformation regarding freight claims in several of the posts above.
I don't think anyone is trying to misinform, just a matter of misguidance.
Rather than argue with anyone, I'll repeat the most important advice:

Make the terms clear in your purchase agreement BEFORE the money changes hands.

As we can see from various opinions above, gross disagreement and gross unhappiness are the greatest likelihood in the case of loss or damage of a gun in transit. Guarantee your own happiness by making the terms clear in your purchase agreement.

neededausername
April 1, 2011, 02:45 AM
I'm a corporate accountant and can tell you how it works between two businesses. It depends on when the sale occurs and when ownership iss considered to be passed. If the sale is thought to happen at your shipping dock and I am paying for shipping, called FOB(freight on board) Shipping then I own the item as soon as it is shipped. If the sale doesn't occur until I receive the item and you are paying for the shipping, called FOB Destination, then you own the item until I receive it. So it boils down to who pays for the shipping. If I pay for the shipping I am considered to own the item and vice versa. Not sure how it works for individuals because corporate and individual accounting can vary greatly.

NavyLCDR
April 1, 2011, 03:00 AM
The most correct answer would be whoever the judge in small claims court decides would eat the cost.....

GoingQuiet
April 1, 2011, 03:15 AM
The other issue at hand here is that the SHIPPER is the one entitled to insurance funds.

If I'm buying a gun - and I email you a tag billed on my account, if the carrier damages or loses it - I file the claim, I get the money.

In traditional - seller pays shipping arrangements - the seller would file the claim and get funds.

In any case - NOT insuring a firearm is just foolish. Unless it was an oversight, I would expect the seller to make the buyer whole as it would be their responsibility to get the package to the dealer.

Now how I run my business.....

Everything is insured. Everything. If it's a BOOK it is insured.

If the gun going out is rare/hard to come by commercially/ONE OF A KIND - USPS Registered mail, most secure way to send it. I send machineguns this way as do many other dealers.

If it's commercially available - I just use ground service of priority mail. On the off chance that the carrier destroys it - and I can't replace the item with off the shelf product, I have to make the buyer whole with cash and thats why I plan accordingly. YMMV.

Canazes9
April 1, 2011, 08:23 AM
The seller is the one who hires a shipper and is thus the only one allowed to make a claim for lost goods. The buyer's part of a deal is to provide an accurate ship-to address and to pay the agreed-upon purchase price, no more. The seller must then deliver the item. If the seller ships it and it goes AWOL, the seller needs to refund the buyer and then go after the shipper with a claim.

If a seller ships uninsured and it doesn't get to the buyer, the seller is still responsible because they didn't do what they were supposed to do, namely, get the item to the one who paid for it. They can say what they want but they're still responsible. Now, collecting from them may be a supreme hassle but, yes, they are responsible.

Have you ever gone into a dry cleaner's and seen the sign that says "not responsible for lost or damged merchandise?" Well, despite the sign, they are responsible.

Anyone can say what for what they they will or won't be responsible but it won't change the reality. I can hang a blinking, 4'X8' neon sign in my living room saying that I am not to be held responsible for any unprovoked aggravated batteries that I may commit on my guests but I could still be held responsible nevertheless. It's the same with any seller-shipper who says that they are not responsible for delivery. They are.
That's correct - doesn't matter if it was discussed/agreed to beforehand. Doesn't matter if the buyer said he wouldn't pay for insurance so the seller shipped without. The seller is liable. A CC company will reverse charges on that transaction every time.

The only way the seller can protect himself is to purchase insurance on every item shipped and build that cost in to the cost of the item for sell.

David

woad_yurt
April 1, 2011, 11:21 AM
The only way the seller can protect himself is to purchase insurance on every item shipped and build that cost in to the cost of the item for sell.

Thank you, Canazes9.

The person or company that handled the shipping is responsible for safe delivery and is liable for any loss in shipping, no matter what they say. Period.

Think about it for a moment. If all of the shipping details are handled by the seller, how could the would-be recipient be held responsible for any screw-up when the carrier has no business with them? The one who shipped is the only one who can make a claim against the carrier. The carrier doesn't know the recipient from a hole in the wall so why would they even discuss it with them?

ants
April 1, 2011, 12:40 PM
There continues to be misinformation among these posts.
Be careful to make the terms clear at the beginning of a transaction.

brickeyee
April 1, 2011, 02:22 PM
As noted above it depends on the agreement between the parties.

We ship things FOB us or the destination depending on the agreement between us and the buyer.

For the most part items sold by businesses to individuals remain the sellers responsibility until received by the buyer.

Canazes9
April 1, 2011, 05:17 PM
Folks,

In the original scenario stated by the OP it does NOT depend on any discussion that took place before hand - that's wrong and ignorant of the law. If you are the seller and ship the firearm (or any other item) to an FFL (as described by the OP) without insurance and the firearm is lost in shipping you are liable. The credit card company will reverse the charges on that transaction every time. The buyer doesn't have to take the seller to court if he used a credit card (as described by the OP), he simply calls the credit card company, says he never received the item and the charges are reversed.

The only one pursuing court action at that point would be the seller trying to recover funds from the buyer for an item that the buyer never received - a court case that the seller will absolutely lose he if he is foolish enough to pursue it (the seller should be pursuing his losses with the shipping company, his only legal claim). The credit card companies will stand 100% firm on this.

This isn't a theory on my part, been there, done that, have the T-shirt (I was the buyer). I would highly advise anyone that is selling an item to ship it insured because you do NOT have any recourse with the buyer - even if the buyer says he refuses to pay for insurance. You can try and BS the buyer and you might get a sucker, but if the buyer calls his credit card company you will lose every time.

I would suggest that all the folks that think that it matters what the buyer agreed to or didn't agree to stop before they post and call their credit card company. Tell them you are thinking of purchasing an expensive item with your credit card and are concerned that if you don't receive the item you won't be able to be refunded. Ask them "what if the seller says it's my fault because I didn't purchase insurance for the shipping?"

Please post what they tell you :D!

David


David

gym
April 1, 2011, 06:38 PM
I insure everything I sell, even if the buyer doesn't wantto pay for it. It's just not worth the aggravation. If I have to lay out an extra $20 dollars, so be it. Most times the buyer will split it with you but sometimes not. It's just not worth not insuring a $500-5000.00 item, Camera, Guns,guitars, etc. So far I have had 3 losses in 3 years. So it more than paid for itself. Fedex made me wait 2 months to get paid, even though they insured a moniter for the "real value", they tried to tell me that I could buy it for less. I refused their offer and they eventually paid the full price. It sucks, but people steal a lot of stuff in the shipping business. And they know boxes labeled "machine parts" may actually not be machine parts.
My local Pak and ship guy was a gun person, and he made me aware that this was pretty often done with firearms. But it's just stupid because if it does get stolen, you are screwed. Also if it get's recovered, you will probablly be in big trouble. "I am not saying anyone here would do that", but it's good to think ahead. When shipping anything as a few guys already mentioned, don't scrimp on the packing and shipping. A damaged firearm is going to cause you headaches also. If it is shipped properlly you can sleep easier. Nothing worse than losing something of value over a couple of dollars.

saltydog452
April 1, 2011, 08:31 PM
I have bought stolen mdse. Didn't intend to and the serial number was checked by the Dls Sheriff Dept. Green flag. So I bought it. Oops.

Later the serial number showed to be ' hot'.

Even with occasional access to the DPS/Nat'l webite, there is some 'lag time' involved.

'My' pistol was stolen. Since Insurance payment for relief to the insured was involved, the property is now owned by an insurance carrier.

The carrier isn't in the business or warehousing/marketing stolen, but recovered property. The previous owner may, or may not, have moved on.

This isn't the Hope Diamond or a MonaLisa painting by Leonardo.

My only option seems to 'part' it out, give it to a PD with some explanition, toss it into the river, or?

The best preventive against thievry, is for potential buyers not to do that. I tried

salty

c1ogden
April 3, 2011, 12:56 AM
"We ship everything insured with signature required, no exceptions. It's stated in the ads that those costs are including in the price we've listed for shipping. "

You may ship it that way but that doesn't mean its being done that way.

I recently shipped four revolvers to a gunsmith in another state. The work was completed and the guns were returned last week by UPS "overnight" delivery with "adult signature required".

I had to go out to run an errand. When I returned I saw the UPS truck parked at the end of my driveway and the driver was at my neighbor's house across the street. The driver looked right at me as I got out of my car and headed into the house via the back door. I expected him to knock on my door within the next few minutes. He never did. When I checked my front door I found his little sticker telling me of the attempted delivery. Apparently he had come to my house just before going to my neighbor's house and then decided that it wasn't worth the effort to walk back up my driveway. His sticker also had a note that an adult signature was required for the package.

The next day I hear the doorbell and by the time I get there (less than 15 seconds) I see the UPS truck driving away. I thought I'd missed him again but there was my package (containing four guns) left sitting on the front doorstep, not 30 feet from a very busy main street.

gatorjames85
April 3, 2011, 01:06 AM
FOB(freight on board) Shipping then I own the item as soon as it is shipped. If the sale doesn't occur until I receive the item and you are paying for the shipping, called FOB Destination, then you own the item until I receive it

This is the best answer thus far. Assumption of risk can pass between the parties at different points in time, depending on the contract. The link is a wikipedia article that explains the terms a little more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOB_(shipping)

denton
April 3, 2011, 01:54 AM
It depends some on whether the transaction is between businesses, individuals or some combination of those. The Uniform Commercial Code protects individual buyers who buy from businesses.

The Uniform Commercial Code has been adopted by all 50 states. The joke is that the UCC assumes that individuals are incompetent to look after themselves. It provides that unless the purchase agreement states otherwise, the seller is responsible for the item until it lands on the buyer's doorstep.

Now, in practice, it doesn't always work out that way. Regardless of what the UCC says, getting a judgement and collecting on the judgement when the seller is in a different state is seldom worth the cost.

It's always best to insist on insurance.

The shipper has to file for the insurance, so the carrier owes the seller and the seller owes you.

Here in Utah there is no reason to buy an out of state firearm. KSL.com usually has about 1,500 firearms listed for sale at any given time. Most of them are private sales, so one state resident can buy from another without any government participation and still have quite a large selection.

Cosmoline
April 3, 2011, 02:16 AM
For firearms, custom and practice are that the seller has control over shipping and the seller has the risk of loss until tender to the buyer or (I would think) the buyer's chosen FFL. Whether that would hold up in court I do not know, but in many transactions I've done that seems to be the standard practice. It makes good common sense. The seller gets to choose insurance while it's the buyer who picks the dealer and bears the risk not only of theft after that point but of a failure of the background check.

UCC would likely control if it did go to court. Best to make it clear by agreement if you're dealing with a high-value firearm. And absolutely ESSENTIAL you have enough insurance.

Canazes9
April 3, 2011, 09:39 AM
This is the best answer thus far. Assumption of risk can pass between the parties at different points in time, depending on the contract. The link is a wikipedia article that explains the terms a little more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOB_(shipping) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOB_%28shipping%29)
Sorry, this is the wrong answer - FOB is for commercial shipping w/ contractual arranged shipping terms. It has almost no applicability for an end use consumer and without a contractual agreement it's not applicable. Seems like a lot of folks confuse their work experiences w/ being an end use consumer.

As stated many times to the OP's question, the credit card company will reverse the charges every time. Credit card companies are not in the business of committing or aiding/abetting mail fraud - if it was illegal they could not and would not do it. If you are charged for an item that you never received then the credit card company can reverse the charges, they will reverse the charges, they do reverse the charges - EVERYDAY!

This isn't an opinion - call your credit card company and ask them! Please post :D!

David

EddieNFL
April 3, 2011, 10:16 AM
If you are charged for an item that you never received then the credit card company can reverse the charges, they will reverse the charges, they do reverse the charges - EVERYDAY!

Yep. Haven't lost one, yet. Including an item I received, but was not what I ordered (shipper admitted mistake).

Shipper insisted I return the item at my expense. I refused, contacted my CC company and received a UPS return label a few days after my CC was credited.

I've passed on more than one deal because the seller did not accept CCs.

tazbigdog
April 3, 2011, 11:26 AM
I thought of another thing, when I sell on fleabay, I routinely ask the buyer is they want insurance on the item won. It is stated in the terms, as well as the shipping/handling cost. If the buyer wants insurance, they pay for it. If they don't, it's on them if lost or stolen. Only had one item lost or stolen, lucky for him he paid for insurance. It was a Cold Steel Master Tanto.

denton
April 3, 2011, 11:43 AM
I've passed on more than one deal because the seller did not accept CCs.

A wise precaution. If a seller says he won't accept CC because he has "had trouble with them" it means that he has been charged back for fraud or non-delivery.

It's also easy enough to Google an individual seller to see if he has a real address and a real phone number. It's worth spending a few minutes with him on the phone, just to check it all out. If someone is working out of a PO box, won't give you a physical address, and doesn't have a phone number, I'm a lot less interested in dealing with him.

Some SOB in the midwest still has my money and gave me a BS story about how he shipped my rifle, but it must have gotten lost in transit. Funny how he stopped responding when I pressed for a receipt. It would have been completely impractical to go after him. And Gumbroker was no help either. They completely refused to honor the insurance they offered at the time.

gatorjames85
April 3, 2011, 02:44 PM
Credit card companies are not in the business of committing or aiding/abetting mail fraud

Explain to me how someone has the necessary intent to commit mail fraud when something they shipped gets lost in the mail through no fault of their own? Just because the credit card companies have a broad policy to this effect doesn't mean that it always reflects the governing law.

without a contractual agreement it's not applicable
My point, if you read my post, is that risk can be contractually assigned.

Cosmoline
April 3, 2011, 05:02 PM
Wait a minute. There's a big difference between the seller's fraud or nonperformance and the OP's question about who bears the risk of loss. Being taken for a ride by a seller or rejecting tender of nonconforming goods are not part of the risk of loss. Risk of loss arises when the shipper loses the goods or they're stolen en route.

Also what the credit card companies do or do not do does not govern risk of loss.

Bottom line, if you have a high value transaction you should allocate risk of loss by agreement, insure the goods and so on. Do not just assume that you can reverse charges in the event of a loss and that will be the end of it.

EddieNFL
April 3, 2011, 05:17 PM
Do not just assume that you can reverse charges in the event of a loss and that will be the end of it.

Unless the seller/shipper can prove it was delivered (to the correct party) where will it end?

About 10 years ago I ordered parts from Hornady that I never received. Hornady insisted UPS had delivered to my door. UPS contacted me asking if I received, could someone else have picked it up and forgotten to tell me, etc. Hornady stood fast and I contacted my CC company. Got my money back.

Cosmoline
April 3, 2011, 06:34 PM
where will it end?

If the dollar value is sufficient, it could end up in a law suit. It typically isn't worth while because few firearms cost more than $1,500. The credit card companies do not sit in judgment of anything. If you reverse charges and the seller can show the item was duly shipped and that someone signed for it at the address you gave them, they most certainly can win a judgment against you.

For small orders they are unlikely to bother with it. Though they may decide not to ship to you again. Don't make the mistake of applying these practices to serious purchases. Get it in writing, and make sure everyone knows the FOB terms.

EddieNFL
April 3, 2011, 08:52 PM
If you reverse charges and the seller can show the item was duly shipped and that someone signed for it at the address you gave them, they most certainly can win a judgment against you.

Pretty sure I said something about proving item was received.

Though they may decide not to ship to you again.

If I reversed charges, they didn't get it to me the first time, so no loss there.

woad_yurt
April 4, 2011, 09:13 AM
I thought of another thing, when I sell on fleabay, I routinely ask the buyer is they want insurance on the item won. It is stated in the terms, as well as the shipping/handling cost. If the buyer wants insurance, they pay for it. If they don't, it's on them if lost or stolen.

In effect, you're saying that even though you are the one who arranged shipping with the carrier, it's someone else who must eat it if it goes wrong. We're talking about legalities and what is, not what you'd like it to be. Just because you say something doesn't make it so. I could say that a screwdriver is a tree but it would still be a screwdriver.

Over the years, as a sometimes frequent eBay buyer, I've had two item-not-received episodes and I got my money back both times. I called up my CC company; both times, they charged back the sale to the seller.

CC companies make their living by your wracking up a balance and paying interest so it's against their financial interest to charge back (negate) a transaction. So, why do they shoot themselves in the financial foot that way? Because, if they side with a seller who doesn't deliver as promised, they'd be profiting from a breached contract. They don't want to be seen as facilitating or being complicit in a fraudulent sale.

Explain to me how someone has the necessary intent to commit mail fraud when something they shipped gets lost in the mail through no fault of their own?

If something accidentally goes astray in shipping and, after being informed of the situation, the seller then refuses to make it right by a giving a refund or sending another item, then it becomes the seller's fault because the seller has then knowingly taken money for something he/she has not delivered.

Ever have an auto repair in which parts and labor are guaranteed for a length of time? If the mechanic has provided the water pump, for example, and it goes bad within the warantee period, the mechanic must replace it free of charge and then must go back to wherever he got the failed water pump to haggle with them for a refund. The car owner (buyer) deals with the mechanic (seller) and the mechanic deals with the parts source (shipper.) How'd you react if the mechanic said "yeah, the part is under warrantee but you have to take it back to NAPA, not me." You folks that say the buyer, rather than the shipper, has to eat a shipping loss are saying the same thing.

The seller names figure, charging for the item and the shipping and he/she has to provide both once he/she accepts the money. Even if the seller says "free shipping," the seller still has to refund or deliver another if the original is lost in transit.

For those of you who say otherwise, how about posting some proof? This is the age of Google; it should be easy and simple to find if it exists. Copy and paste away!

Think: You're saying that the shipper is not responsible for the shipping. It makes no sense and I would love to see any bona fide citation that says so. I challenge any and all to find and post one! Look down; the gauntlet has been thrown! ¡Venga, Sancho, montamos a caballo!

Cosmoline
April 4, 2011, 01:40 PM
If you want to know the law, the UCC governs.

§ 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier
(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation (Section 2-505); but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-509.html

I would say that implicit in most firearm sales is a promise to deliver to the buyer's FFL. That makes them a bit different from other transactions. But once there, the risk passes to the buyer. And all of this is subject to change by agreement. And as I said earlier, if you have a high dollar value item it's deeply stupid not to get the risk of loss and insurance issues taken care of in advance. DEEPLY stupid.

You have to remember though that the UCC does not cover services, only goods. An auto mechanic working on your car would probably not fall under the code.

woad_yurt
April 4, 2011, 02:10 PM
(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

Like when the seller says "Pay me $385, $350 for the gun and $35 S/H" followed with the buyer giving the seller $385.00?

He who ships* is responsible for shipping and he who buys is responsible for paying.

* Often referred to as a "shipper."

Rail Driver
April 4, 2011, 03:01 PM
The Uniform Commercial Code has been adopted by all 50 states.

This is not entirely true. The UCC has been adopted in some form by all 50 states. This means that there ARE differences, however minute, from state to state. These differences may not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but in some situations (such as the one being discussed in this thread) the differences could mean a great deal to a buyer, especially when buying across state lines.

I don't claim to know all of those differences, however it's something to consider.

milefile
April 4, 2011, 04:26 PM
I have a gun in transit right now and they sent it ground. Very nervous about it getting here... Wednesday can't come fast enough. I don't know if it's isnsured. Hopefully the fact that it's a rifle will make it too hard to steal.

dogtown tom
April 4, 2011, 07:25 PM
tazbigdog I thought of another thing, when I sell on fleabay, I routinely ask the buyer is they want insurance on the item won. It is stated in the terms, as well as the shipping/handling cost. If the buyer wants insurance, they pay for it. If they don't, it's on them if lost or stolen. Only had one item lost or stolen, lucky for him he paid for insurance. It was a Cold Steel Master Tanto.
It doesn't matter if the buyer bought insurance. If that item never arrived or if it arrived damaged.........you the seller are responsible.

Ebay policies are very clear, the item must arrive in the same condition as when it was sold. If it doesn't the buyer can file a claim with Ebay and WILL WIN. Ebay will refund their purchase price including shipping fees and reverse any payments they may have sent to you.

Insurance protects the shipper, not recepient.

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