[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

the point of the "commercial' designation is to EXCLUDE MILITARY-DERIVED DESIGNS.

That means no FAL's, AK's, M-14's, G-3's, AR's, Garand's, etc. In short, anything built for the military first, and the civilian market afterwards.

That doesn't leave very many choices, AFAIK. The Browning BAR. The Remington 7400 series. Things of that nature.

Here in the PRK, our draconian 'assault weapon' ban pretty much cuts off access from most of the commonly available military actions. That leaves people who didn't have one already somewhat SOL if they want to own what many regard as the "best" of the autoloaders for general-purpose use.

So I ask, knowing that "Best" is a very subjective term open to the influence of many variables, which self-loader you would consider the most desireable, and why?

BTW, my personal favorite is the Remington Model 8/81 Woodsmaster, because it is a John Browning design that was in production for about 40 years before going out because of WW II, and being too expensive to produce to resume production afterwards. 40 years is pretty good for a first-generation design, which speaks well of J.B.'s engineering. It's a long-recoil design that does not rely on gas impingement to operate, a design element I find appealing from a practical reliability standpoint. The guns themselves are beautifully made, with all-machined parts who's workmanship reflects the ideals of craftsmanship from an earlier time, as the guns were initially marketed in 1906. They're well-balanced, much like a Winchester levergun, and their 22" barrels make them quite handy for woods-bumming or what-have-you, while their beefy construction makes for enough weight to have them settle nicely on target when takeing a quick sight on something off-hand. The action absorbs recoil very well, they come chambered for a variety of useful (And a few useless. ;) ) rounds like the .35 Remington and the .300 Savage, and their solid heft means they're BUILT, like a Ruger revolver.

I've got two. I like 'em better than my 7400 and my BAR. And as an added bonus, my two M-81's together cost less than HALF of the going rate for a BAR. I've never even seen an M-8/81 for more than $400, although there aren't that many around.

I'm also wondering about any commercial auto designs I may have left out of this post. I know there's a few more, I just can't think of 'em right now, so I'm wishing for people to fill in the blanks.

So which one do you like, and why, when forced to be "satisfied with less" without the choice of the military-derived actions? It might really matter to the PRK in the immediate future with the way our idiotic legislature is so enamored with banning the "scary-looking" guns.

[Stephen Ewing]

I assume the 10/22 is out?

Are the non-G3 HKs "civilian" enough for you? I forget what they're calling their latest effort, but it's got to be better than the other currently available designs.

Even including that, I'll take a good bolt over any of them. I'll shoot faster than somebody clearing jams on the Remington or Browning, too.

Steve

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

ONE reply, defering in the end to bolt guns no less, is insufficeint. G-3's in civilian trim is still a G-3, with military ergonomics. One of the reasons I don't have a pistol-grip gun is that I REALLY dislike the stock fit. they 'feel' wrong to me, really awkward.

Not that bolts are bad in any way, but they're not the question. And they don't have pistol grips.

Surely at least a few of you people have opinions on the non-military self-loaders, even if they're in the realm of "Not this one because..."

The PRK BANNED the pistol-grip guns. ALL of 'em.

Garands an M-1A 's COST. They're kind of heavy, too. And the action's the same, to all intents and purposes. One choice is no choice.

Just fishing for opinions, here. Subjective and personal is OK by me, as I'm after thinking that's not just mine.

A little help, please?

[Stephen Ewing]

Hand_Rifle_Guy, that's NON-G3 HKs. Finally figured out the name of the darn thing: The SLB 2000. http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/civilian/slb2kframeset.html Don't ask me what they called the generation before that in the 80s. If I HAD to have a "civilian" semi-auto centerfire of current manufacture, that would be my choice.

Incidentally, Garands aren't that expensive if you do the DCM route.

Steve

[Sactown]

How about the old HK SL-6 in .223 and the SL-7 in .308 (or is it the other way around).

http://www.hkpro.com/sl6.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/sl6pose1.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/sl6ad.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/sl6_7.jpg

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Well, what are THOSE???^^^

The HK's are sufficeintly non-military to qualify. Never laid eyes on one before, but vaguely remember them. Roller-locked action, I think, but I'm not sure.

Rhetorical questions. I shall research. And I call myself a gun collector. :o

Thanks, just what I'm searching for. The more the merrier.

[Handy]

The SL series was a slightly militarized version of earlier sporter designs. The .308 770 is even more civilian looking.

They were all roller guns. Machined receivers, claw mounts, floating barrels. VERY accurate. Perhaps tougher than its military counterpart, the G3 (and that's saying something).

The new HK SLB 2000 is gas operated. No opinion.

The BAR is a tough design (similar in many ways to the BAR MG). It also seems to be very accurate, especially in BOSS trim. They are pricey, but well finished, which is a factor. They probably could make a cheapo version for $600.

[cheygriz]

To me, the BAR MKll is the ultimate civvie semi-auto. Actually, IMHO it's the untimate North American hunting rifle. Excellent ergonomics, more accurate than most bolt actions and utterly reliable.

[Marshall]

Ditto!

The Browning BAR wins this deal hands down as long as it fits you. I went thru this same research and ended up buying the BAR Safari in 300WSM with BOSS.
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/031001111m.jpg

HK 2000 was my second choice. But pick up both rifles and you will want the Browning.

I am rather unimpressed with the 7400 Rem. Nice Gun, just not in the same league, IMO.

[Kahr carrier]

Browning Bar:)

[fal308]

Steve
There are actually two different BARs.
The first was the BAR from just around the end of WWI up to beyond Korea. There werfe military and civilian versions. The military version was called the BAR and the civilian version (produced by Colt) was called the Monitor. One of these is probably the one you're thinking of. It was used to devestating effect by Bonnie and Clyde. This is also the firearm that Steve McQueen used in The Sand Pebbles.
The other BAR is the sporting rifle put out by Browning. It started production in 1967 and variations and descendants are still in production.

[Gewehr98]

For the commercial semiauto sporting rifle known as the Browning BAR. Preferably a Belgian-made one, like this 1969 .30-06:

http://mauser98.com/barbenchsmall.jpg

[rjk2475]

anyone know why there is no browning BAR in .223 with a hi cap mag?

[BusMaster007]

The 7400 & BAR are really different animals.

My .30-06 Carbine 7400 has been reconfigured a couple of different ways. It is STILL under construction and testing in the next incarnation! I've been a little slow with it.

My 7mm Rem.Mag. BAR has had the standard (very nicely figured) wood stock stored away in lieu of the Bell&Carlson stock.
Both guns have their place for me.
http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=6454
http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=6453
Fun Guns~!:D

[Handy]

anyone know why there is no browning BAR in .223 with a hi cap mag?


I would assume because it would be in terrible taste.

[Gewehr98]

anyone know why there is no browning BAR in .223 with a hi cap mag?


Why booger up a fine sporting arm of classic lines and dimensions by basically making an AR-15 or Mini-14 out of it?:scrutiny:

[BusMaster007]

I think Browning offered the Safari MkII in .22-250 w/BOSS a few years back.
That'd be quite a varmint gun.

[Nightcrawler]

I don't know about "high cap" mags, but I wish some of these sporter rifles would introduce models with 10 round mags for the range and more intuitive manuals of arms. The Remington 7400 has a particularly frustrating manual of arms. The bolt locks back on the last round, but you can't drop the mag out with the bolt locked back. The way you reload is to drop a round into the chamber, close the bolt, THEN change the mag. Yech. Give me the change the mag, hit the bolt release method any day.

Anyway, the 10 round range mags would just be for convenience when target shooting. You likely won't ever need that many rounds for hunting.

I also wish sporter rifles (and this includes bolt guns) would take a hint and start coming with decent sights. I don't mind crude semibuckhorn sights on a $230 lever rifle or a carbine; but on a long ranged, 400 yard gun, a peep sight would be preferable.

Benelli is now making a very slick, futuristic, yet still classy looking hunting rifle in .30-06 and .300WM. Don't know if it'll have 10 round mags. But get this; the version being imported to the US doesn't have any iron sights at all.

I guess the idea of using the irons is dead to the typical American shooter. :(

As for the idea of a Browning BAR in .223...I don't think many would go for it. It's pretty big for a .223, and there isn't much you can hunt with the little Remington cartrdige (and in many states it's not even legal to hunt deer with it).

[Blain]

Ok, I was just wondering....what is the difference between the Browning BAR and the Military WWII/Full Auto BAR? They are both called "BARs" are they basiclly the same rifle or totally different from each other? How much would a semi only WWII bar cost?

[podwich]

Garands an M-1A 's COST. They're kind of heavy, too. And the action's the same, to all intents and purposes. One choice is no choice.

I don't know what you consider cost. A Danish issue service grade M1 Garand is $400 (rack grade $375). That doesn't seem like all that much to pay.

[Destructo6]

Handy, no claw mount on the HK SL-6 and SL-7. They used the HK 05 scope mount, which I've never seen.

I used to own a SL6 and liked it quite a bit. It was accurate and reliable.

[Stephen Ewing]

Blain, big difference between the two in price, feed, operating system, whatever. I confess I'm much more impressed with the original, and consider its namesake to be amusing at best.

There's an outfit in Ohio doing semi-auto BARs for what ISTR as just under $2k.

Steve

[Jack T.]

My wife bought a .270 BAR w/BOSS last year for dear season. The BAR replaced the 7400 she had had for several years. No comparison. The BAR is exceptionally accurate ( well under an inch at 100 yards w/ handloads) and the recoil is negligible. They don't give them away, but for a semi-auto, they are an excellent choice. . .

[Handy]

6,

The 05 mount IS a claw mount. It is not the same claw mount as the military rifles, but is classified as the same type of system.

[Destructo6]

I've never heard the 05 mount referred to as "claw mount". The receiver cover had no nubbins like the the four you'd find on HK military rifles. Rather, is had two square holes, fore and aft, to insert the mount.

My SL6 appeared to have been drilled and tapped for a picatinny rail at some point, though that was no longer present.

Do you have any pictures of the "feet" of the 05 mount? I'd like to see them.

[Handy]

Hey 6,

I have been told before that it was another type of "claw" mount. I guess this begs the question "what is a claw mount?". I don't have an answer, so I may well be wrong. I'll keep checking, but couldn't find anything on HKPRO. I'll do a search.

It's a good, repeatable and tight mount, either way. (Which is all I was getting at.)

[greg531mi]

I have a Winchester Model 10,in 401 Winchester. they also made it in 25, 35, and 351 winchester. They were good rifles in their time. Also the Winchester Model 100 was a good rifle. I had a Remington Model 8 once, they were interesting rifles, the barrel recoiled. I have H&K Model's 630 in 223 and SL-7 in 308. Nice rifles, accurate as a bolt action, too bad they are not imported any more. The mags are hard to find at a decent price, but I guess H&K still support them. I like rifles that don't have a military look, but with a change to 10 round mags, they can be very effective battle rifles. If you go to deer camp with a 91, even with a 5 round mag, you are going to get a interesting nickname. Bar's are nice too, very good guns, but I never did like the Remington's. Don't know why, but I think they look cheap. Not much choice in this kind of semi's, it seems like the major players are not adding any new ones. Would like to see Winchester come out with a new Model 100. I guess they are worried about liability issues...Too bad...

[9mmepiphany]

i don't know if you'd call it (the 05) a "claw mount", but i think that was the way it was marketed. it differs from the more common HK "claw" in that rather than clamping "around" the receiver, it's claws clamp inside the receiver cutouts.

the claws at the bottom of the mount are retracted, toward each other, so they can fit inside the cutouts. tension is released and the claws expand to lock into the receiver. might not be as strong as the military mount, but much sleeker looking.

the SL-6 (.223) i handled was very accurate and the scope held zero when removed and replaced on the gun. the odd thing was the humpback stock...i understand it, it just looks funny.

i''m surprised no one has yet mentioned the winchester m-100. i think they were available in .243 and .308. looked sorta like a grown up 10/22

[Triad]

IIRC the type of mount on the SL6 and 7 is the original "claw" mount and it predates the G3 type mount by several decades. I think it fell out of favor because it requires a fair amount of time and skill to do it properly and if it isn't done right the mount will fail.

[Byron Quick]

I'm gonna have to check out that JMB design mentioned earlier.


But I've hunted with a Browning BAR Safari II in .300 Win Mag with the BOSS for several years now. Killed about 30 deer with it and a couple of pigs. It hasn't been pampered. It's hunted in downpours, ice storms and even snow a couple of times (don't get much down here). It's been underwater a few times (I've a talent for finding the deepest spots in the swamp:rolleyes: ) Its next jam will be its first jam.