Wikileaks Cable, most cartell guns come from Central America


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Spec ops Grunt
March 31, 2011, 02:12 PM
http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=14976

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TexasRifleman
March 31, 2011, 03:25 PM
NRA gives permission to reproduce articles as long as it's not for a commercial purpose so...

The most fearsome weapons wielded by Mexico's drug cartels enter the country from Central America, not the United States, according to U.S. diplomatic cables disseminated by WikiLeaks and published here Tuesday by La Jornada newspaper. Items such as grenades and rocket-launchers are stolen from Central American armies and smuggled into Mexico via neighboring Guatemala, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City reported to Washington.

Very interesting information. No surprise to most of us I'm sure.

TX1911fan
March 31, 2011, 04:53 PM
Also not surprising is that this information is from US diplomatic cables, despite Obama and his administration claiming something entirely different. As we all KNEW, the Mexico thing was just a ruse to get law abiding Americans to disarm.

Old Fuff
March 31, 2011, 04:59 PM
Apparently this administration's left hand doesn't know what the other one is doing. Are we to believe the State Department withheld this information from the White House? :rolleyes:

RS14
March 31, 2011, 05:00 PM
Very interesting if true. Unfortunately, the NRA summary just parrots the Fox summary which just parrots the La Jornada article (http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2011/03/29/index.php?section=politica&article=002n1pol) which doesn't seem to be available at the moment. None of them actually cites the cable in question, which is the whole point of having access to leaked cables, yes?

Borderland Beat (http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/03/mexican-cartels-get-heavy-weapons-from.html) cites a cable (1), which doesn't actually seem to say what anyone is reporting, except that to note that the southern Mexican border is almost completely porous, from which one can deduce that yes, people can probably bring guns cross it. For instance, in paragraph 7, we read that people regularly cross this southern border illegally and in clear view of a legal border crossing. They do claim precise figures, but I can't find the actual cable using cablesearch.org. If anyone can find this, please post a link.


(1): http://213.251.145.96/cable/2010/01/10MEXICO77.html
Confidential, do not view if prohibited (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/world/05restrict.html)

essayons21
March 31, 2011, 05:05 PM
Apparently this administration's left hand doesn't know what the other one is doing. Are we to believe the State Department withheld this information from the White House?

Don't forget that Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State was one of the primary mouthpieces parroting the "90% of mexican guns come from the US" meme, long after it was disproven.

This wasn't a matter of not knowing, or as Obama said too many "moving parts" to the government. This is an example of a coordinated effort by the Executive branch to LIE to the American people to further an anti-2A agenda.

Old Fuff
March 31, 2011, 05:38 PM
This wasn't a matter of not knowing, or as Obama said too many "moving parts" to the government. This is an example of a coordinated effort by the Executive branch to LIE to the American people to further an anti-2A agenda.

Very likely. That why I ended my post with... :rolleyes:

One-Time
March 31, 2011, 05:42 PM
yup, as I recall, only some 8 or 10% of the guns are easily traced, of those 90% were from America. I loved all the libs acting like we can buy grenades, and rocket launchers in mom n pops gun shop

Shear_stress
March 31, 2011, 05:46 PM
The Fox News article doesn't say "most" cartel guns come from Central America, mainly heavier weapons like RPGs. Let's not make the same mistake that the other side makes when looking at the available information.

General Geoff
March 31, 2011, 05:47 PM
I loved all the libs acting like we can buy grenades, and rocket launchers in mom n pops gun shop

I wish we could :(

Patriotme
March 31, 2011, 05:50 PM
Are you saying that the grenades, rockets and belt fed machineguns that we buy at the gunshows, local gun stores and from private sales aren't really going south to Mexico?

THE DARK KNIGHT
March 31, 2011, 06:43 PM
As with any story with two sides, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

It's obvious to any of us that are familiar with US gun laws that the grenades, rocket launchers, etc. are obviously coming from Central American and who knows where else. It's foolish for anyone to think grenades com from anywhere in the USA.

However, it's also foolish to try and pretend that a lot of guns turning up in Mexico don't come from the USA as well. With three mostly rural, gun-friendly states right next door you would have to be pretty naive to think Mexican gangsters never sent anyone up north to pick up some guns.

essayons21
March 31, 2011, 06:51 PM
However, it's also foolish to try and pretend that a lot of guns turning up in Mexico don't come from the USA as well. With three mostly rural, gun-friendly states right next door you would have to be pretty naive to think Mexican gangsters never sent anyone up north to pick up some guns.

We know they did. The gunshops called the ATF, were instructed to proceed with the sales against their better judgement, and ATF let the guns walk into Mexico and disappear. Google Project Gunrunner

Oh and that 90% statistic (which was really 17%) came from 2007-2008 trace data of about 6000 guns.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/

We now know that at least 1700-2500 guns were intentionally allowed into Mexico by the ATF during a similar time period. And that is a conservative estimate which comes from only the guns that individual field agents were personally aware of.

Do the math.

Claymore1500
March 31, 2011, 06:55 PM
I don't think they have to send anyone up north, Haven't you heard the new A.T.F. motto,

"We deliver"

THE DARK KNIGHT
March 31, 2011, 06:57 PM
We know they did. The gunshops called the ATF, were instructed to proceed with the sales against their better judgement, and ATF let the guns walk into Mexico and disappear. Google Project Gunrunner

Yes, I know. But, prior to that bombshell, groups like the NRA and other various conservative outlets were claiming that the guns in Mexico "simply don't come from the US" despite the appearance of weapons like MAK-90s with thumbholes and Barrett .50s that clearly came from the USA. Now they got lucky because they have a new distraction thanks to the gunrunner scandal, but it's not a case of them having ever been right, just lucky.

RS14
March 31, 2011, 07:03 PM
My previous reply was a bit harsh; La Jornada (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jornada.unam.mx%2F2011%2F03%2F29%2Findex.php%3Fsection%3Dpolitica%26article%3D002n1pol&act=url) is much better about citing its sources. Unfortunately, the cable they cite for these figures (09MEXICO880) doesn't seem to be available anywhere.

essayons21
March 31, 2011, 07:08 PM
I haven't seen anyone here claim that no guns come from the US to Mexico. Haven't seen anyone from the NRA make that claim either. Fox News didn't make that claim... they were the ones that broke the myth and more accurately pegged the number at 17%.

So who then? Perhaps you have links? Or maybe the Straw Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)?

However, many people have claimed that the flow of guns south is a minor problem being blown out of proportion by an administration seeking political gain. And now the fact that that same administration has been found to be complicit in running guns south, it gains overtones of the Reichstag fire.

I'd be curious to see if the net flow of guns across the border is even biased in favor of the US. Drug smugglers bring weapons with them and I'm sure US gangs with ties to the Mexican cartels would love to have access to the heavy weaponry that has been taken from the Mexican military inventory, or moved up from Central America.

BLB68
March 31, 2011, 07:21 PM
Anyone have a link to the actual cable? I can't find it, but then again, I'm recovering from surgery and the old brain pan isn't working at 100%.

essayons21
March 31, 2011, 07:27 PM
RS14 posted it in post #5.

http://213.251.145.96/cable/2010/01/10MEXICO77.html

harrygunner
March 31, 2011, 07:27 PM
The set traced to the U.S were preselected from a large set of guns in Mexico.

Imagine someone selecting gumballs that might be 'red' from a huge bag. Any gumball that's close to being red is segregated for testing. Of those, 90% were in fact red.

Then the news is "Ninety percent of all gumballs are red!" :cuss:

Shear_stress
March 31, 2011, 08:07 PM
I haven't seen anyone here claim that no guns come from the US to Mexico.
And no one's arguing the opposite. This thread is titled "Wikileaks Cable, most cartell [sic] guns come from Central America." That is not what the article says.

texas bulldog
March 31, 2011, 08:08 PM
With three mostly rural, gun-friendly states right next door

Would you call California "mostly rural"? 'Cause we just passed them in electoral votes. Yes, there are rural areas, but I don't think this qualifies as "mostly rural"

http://www.statemapsonline.com/images/maps/texas/Texas-State-Population-Density-Map.jpg

Keep in mind that the couple of white counties are also going to be mighty short on gun stores...

THE DARK KNIGHT
March 31, 2011, 08:58 PM
Would you call California "mostly rural"? 'Cause we just passed them in electoral votes. Yes, there are rural areas, but I don't think this qualifies as "mostly rural"

Coming from New Jersey, Texas is most certainly rural by our standards. And we would consider New Mexico and Arizona pretty much a barren wasteland.

So yeah, you're rural to us. For example Bergen-Essex-Hudson has more people than all of New Mexico.

http://www.statemapsonline.com/images/maps/new-jersey/New-Jersey-State-Population-Density-Map.jpg

BLB68
March 31, 2011, 09:05 PM
Thanks essayons, can't believe I even managed to miss it in the thread, I must be really out of it today.

medalguy
March 31, 2011, 11:44 PM
Bergen-Essex-Hudson has more people than all of New Mexico.

And those of us in New Mexico really, really hope it stays that way!! :neener:

Old Fuff
April 1, 2011, 12:05 AM
With three mostly rural, gun-friendly states right next door you would have to be pretty naive to think Mexican gangsters never sent anyone up north to pick up some guns.

While it is true that some of the guns that "go south" end up in criminal hands, those of us that live along the border know that a lot (and maybe most) arms purchased from retailers, private individuals, and at gun shows are purchased by local Mexican-Americans who are often U.S. citizens; and intended for extended family members and friends in the "Old Country." Others are obtained by professional gun runners that are only interested in money - from anybody.

Place yourself in the open warfare going on in Northern Mexico. While even the armed forces of that country cannot suppress the violence, Mexican laws for all practical purposes deny the people any means of self defense. :banghead:

medalguy
April 1, 2011, 02:02 AM
The cable cited is readily available if you google "09mexico880" but most links I found were in spanish and you will need to translate the page if your spanish is as bad as mine.

Neverwinter
April 1, 2011, 09:16 AM
This is an example of a coordinated effort by the Executive branch to LIE to the American people to further an anti-2A agenda.
Wouldn't be the first time(eg. Iraq), and certainly won't be the last.

Place yourself in the open warfare going on in Northern Mexico. While even the armed forces of that country cannot suppress the violence, Mexican laws for all practical purposes deny the people any means of self defense.
Our War on Some Drugs has been complicit in enabling the warfare of the Mexican drug cartels. The drug law enforcement causes the risk of selling to be very high, resulting in a black market with very high prices from the cartels willing to take that risk. With the enormous markup from their drug sales compared to the cost of production and distribution, the cartels have become very well funded. The Mexican people would still not have rights analogous to our 2nd amendment, but at least they would be safer.

texas bulldog
April 1, 2011, 11:39 AM
Coming from New Jersey, Texas is most certainly rural by our standards. And we would consider New Mexico and Arizona pretty much a barren wasteland.

So yeah, you're rural to us. For example Bergen-Essex-Hudson has more people than all of New Mexico.

Well I wasn't really talking about New Mexico. But since we're comparing population, the DFW and Houston metro areas alone dwarf the New Jersey population. (12.5 mil compared to 8.7 mil). That's not counting Austin, San Antonio, and the rest of the I-35 corridor.

Sorry...I get a little tired of Northeasterners viewing us as flyover country. I mean, we're the most populated State in the Union. How much bigger do we have to be before people stop thinking it's all cattle and oil derricks?

essayons21
April 1, 2011, 12:49 PM
Shear_stress, I was responding to post #15, not yours.


groups like the NRA and other various conservative outlets were claiming that the guns in Mexico "simply don't come from the US"

That is a false statement.

And yes, the title of the OP is misleading, but I believe its too late for the OP to edit it.

Rshooter
April 1, 2011, 02:14 PM
The sad state of this affair is that some people really do believe that Mexicans are getting automatic weapons, grenades, and other heavy weapons from gunshows and gun dealers down south.

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