MBC Quality


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blarby
March 31, 2011, 10:21 PM
So, I got my 500 165gr whitetails from MBC today !

Ended up with 504, bonus :D

Expertly sized to .311- they all passed...exactly.

Weight breakdown :

168 gr : 99

167 gr : 47

166 gr : 187

165 gr : 167

164 gr : 3

163 gr : 1

I didn't split hairs on tenth grains, and just lumped em into a whole grain weight category. If we exclude the 4 bonus bullets from the group- we'd end up with only four weight categories.

Lubing on the bullets was of great quality and uniformly applied....what the USPS knocked askew, I was able to roll back into the grooves easily- the lube was in the box, so i do blame USPS/ normal transit. I've seen a lot of thin/thick lube jobs from competitors at friends benches....these don't suffer that malady.

The bullet lengths are extremely uniform divided amongst the weight gradients: 0.934 inches for the heaviest, down to 0.925 for the lightest. There were very few exceptions to the weight/length correlation within the measured 1 grain intervals.

Concentric measurement was also VERY good, I'm sure no doubt due to the sizing process, but the measurement along the bullet ogive was very regular and consistent.

Very good casting technique evident solely based on uniformity of finished shape, and weight spread deviation.


Very high marks from me, you folks do an excellent job over there.

As soon as I can, I look forward to ordering more in all the calibers I shoot.

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ljnowell
March 31, 2011, 10:57 PM
You have discovered the magic that is MoBullet. They somehow manage to provide that quality without giving you year long delays like other bullet casters who wont be named. They also come through with thier promises. You wont see long threads about people not getting what they paid for like with others.

You are now hooked, like many of us.

blarby
March 31, 2011, 11:08 PM
Indeed I have.

gacajun
March 31, 2011, 11:56 PM
+1 on MBC quality. I've ordered from them 3 times in the last 2 months and they have been prompt and the bullets weighed uniformly. They even let us know that a price increase was coming so we could order before price increases.

blarby
April 1, 2011, 02:20 AM
And, they have allowed me to produce these first 50 beauties.

First lead from MBC, looks good to me !

capreppy
April 1, 2011, 02:27 AM
Every order has shipped within 24 hours of order (even those placed late at night on a Friday). The quality of the bullets is great. I won't go anywhere else.

ArchAngelCD
April 1, 2011, 05:12 AM
I was also very happy at how well those 165gr 30-30 bullets shot. They are extremely accurate.

blarby,
What powder and charge weight did you settle on? My first batch was with 21.0gr H4895. The velocity from a Marlin Carbine was 1340 which is a little low.

blarby
April 1, 2011, 05:36 AM
I pressed 50 of the 7.2 gr uniques.

Gonna try those out @ the range this weekend, see how they do.

Hopefully I'll have a little more brass after that trip :D for experimenting, as that was the last 50 I had !

I'm going to start at 22 or 23 grains h4895, and see what shakes loose on the next batch. I know in regards to pressure I'm good clear up to the low 30 mark, its just going to be an accuracy and leading issue at that point.

If the 7.2 gr load Jech cooked up works as well in my rifle as It did in his, I may just leave well enough alone..... they only cost me about 14 cents a piece that way :)

One thing I was impressed with : (weird, but bear with me) I tumble after assembly, and usually I'm a shiny guy. The smooth,flat lead on that shiny shiny brass just looks monolithic- and lethally cool. They look accurate standing still !

Lead Head
April 1, 2011, 10:23 AM
What are you guys doing about the barrel leading? This can also be a reason for bullet weight variations since the leading is different from box to box meaning the alloys are varying which would have an influence on bullet weight. I go from bullets that lead up the barrel to the point that it take the better part of an hour to clean it to ones that lead noticeably less. Those kinds of inconsistencies are hard to swallow for me, doesn't it affect you or don't you pay attention to leading?

I went back to Penn Bullets and ALL my leading problems went away. As far as weight I can buy my .45's guaranteed to withing 7 tents of a grain from Bob with no leading. I don't have time to scrape lead out. Once your barrel gets laded up, your accuracy goes out the window it gets so bad with MB's.

Jech
April 1, 2011, 10:30 AM
What are you guys doing about the barrel leading?

Leading? What leading? xD

This load/charge combo doesn't lead up at all in my Marlin 336. Now, if I pushed it a lot hotter to the 10gr range well beyond the pressure/velocity recommendations for a bevel based rifle bullet...well that's another story!

I stick to RanchDog's gas checked 165gr flat point for my full power stuff.

Lead Head
April 1, 2011, 10:47 AM
Leading? What leading? xD

If I had any more to shoot I'd say stop by and I'll show you what leading looks like. My new 9MM leaded up so bad you almost couldn't see the rifling in places, I exaggerate not, just about an hour and many different devices to get it out. The lead they are casting is inconsistent, maybe you've been lucky so far.

I experience extreme leading in more than 50 under 100 rounds. There's no way I could use those bullets for my steel target shooting. I wouldn't make it to the end of the shoot and as I said, accuracy goes out the window as the barrel gets blocked. One time it was actually so bad I feared barrel failure as you are warned not to fire lead through a Glock.

Now I bought some .38's to get me through a tough time and they aren't as bad but we're still talking needing to make 100 passes with a metal bore brush verses 20 passes with Penn Bullets (I do 20 passes cleaning up after a jacketed shoot). I just found I couldn't trust the alloy they are casting.

I'll add: and these I had leading problems with are target loads, very light loads some under recommended minimum.

jerkface11
April 1, 2011, 10:59 AM
Blarby have you tried trailboss yet?

blarby
April 1, 2011, 12:32 PM
Nay, I haven't yet.

If I hadn't justed stocked up on unique and h4895, I might be inclined to try it :)

Maybe after the move !

Sin City Shootist
April 1, 2011, 04:25 PM
What are you guys doing about the barrel leading?

A strip of Chore Boy wrapped around an old brush makes quick work on a leaded barrel. Any chance you're using a Lee FCD? My barrels used to lead really bad till I quit using the FCD. I'm assuming it was shaving the bullets on the way out and leaving deposits for the next round to embed deeper in the barrel.

Lead Head
April 1, 2011, 04:39 PM
A strip of Chore Boy wrapped around an old brush makes quick work on a leaded barrel. Any chance you're using a Lee FCD? My barrels used to lead really bad till I quit using the FCD. I'm assuming it was shaving the bullets on the way out and leaving deposits for the next round to embed deeper in the barrel.

To get it cleaned I would use a metal bore brush, Lewis Lead Remover, Led Away wrapped round an old .45 brush. But until the heavy deposits that are so thick they blur the rifling, Lead Away doesn't hardly tough it; that's more for getting the last traces of it out. Do that for about an hour and it's finally clean.

I use a FCD and with Penn Bullets have no problem with lead in any of my guns. The FC die doesn't "shave lead off", it final sizes the cartridge.

blarby
April 1, 2011, 04:59 PM
Hoppes elite before.....

Hoppes elite after.......



Comes off "like butta"

Lead Head
April 1, 2011, 05:23 PM
No it doesn't...common.

You're telling me I need 50 or more strokes with a Lewis Lead Remover to get the bulk out so I can get it better with a hundred or so strokes with a old .45 brush in a 9 mm then with Lead Away patch wrapped around it for another 25 to 50 strokes and all I have to do is run a patch of Hoppies and I'm done? LMAO

If I had more of those bullets to fire I'd love to have you come over and show me this magic trick.

Look if you don't like/want the bad press quit telling me I'm wrong so I don't feel I need to respond. I'm not here with any bone to pick with anybody nor do I have a beef with MB personally; I'm just tellin it like it is for the bullets I had. Don't forget I had some MB .38's which weren't nearly as bad as the 9's but I'll still stick with my dependable Penn Bullets and NO leading. I know what I experienced and it wasn't fun. First tie in over 30 years of loading I ever had a problem that bad.

Travis Two
April 1, 2011, 05:45 PM
I never had a lube issue with lube coming off the bullets with Penn despite the rough handling some of the boxes had undergone. Despite the fact that some of the interior boxes broke; the bullets were still intact with the lube in place. The exterior of the box was heavily reinforced so I never lost any bullets despite some of the gorillas the USPS has working for them.
Most of my boxes come intact with no damage.

MissouriBullet
April 1, 2011, 07:10 PM
Hey Travis, what took you so long? :-)

GLOOB
April 1, 2011, 07:53 PM
I'll add: and these I had leading problems with are target loads, very light loads some under recommended minimum.
You can't load high BH bullets under minimum starting loads and not expect leading. If you need light target loads, buy the appropriate bullets. Sounds like Penn does better for your load.

Hard bullets need more pressure to seal. Your leading probably came from gas cutting from that long Glock throat with a bullet that was not obturated. You were melting your bullets.

I haven't tried mine, yet, but I expect MBC luger "small ball" BH18 bullets to work best at or near max lead load info.

wcavasos
April 1, 2011, 08:21 PM
About what Gloob said. Iv'e read exactly that in what i think was my speer reloading manual. There might be something to that, gotta have enough pressure to create that concave shape on the aft end of the bullet to create a good bullet to barrel seal. Anyhow my experiance has been great with mbc loading within the speer recommendations for lrn and swc bullets, COL doesn't match cause the bullet crimp groove must be positioned differently on speer bullets than on the mbc type. But no matter I started at the min and worked my way up until my accuracy was consistant w/o signs of pressure on the cases. NO LEADING at all...none. I have been expecting it but I think I found the right recipe. It's a beautiful thing when everything just works out perfect. I wish you luck with Penn, but I will stick with mbc until I get results that are unacceptable. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Travis Two
April 1, 2011, 09:37 PM
Hey Travis, what took you so long? :-)

Range day. weathers breaking and its time to start tuning up for the matches.

Travis Two
April 1, 2011, 09:47 PM
About what Gloob said. Iv'e read exactly that in what i think was my speer reloading manual. There might be something to that, gotta have enough pressure to create that concave shape on the aft end of the bullet to create a good bullet to barrel seal. Anyhow my experiance has been great with mbc loading within the speer recommendations for lrn and swc bullets, COL doesn't match cause the bullet crimp groove must be positioned differently on speer bullets than on the mbc type. But no matter I started at the min and worked my way up until my accuracy was consistant w/o signs of pressure on the cases. NO LEADING at all...none. I have been expecting it but I think I found the right recipe. It's a beautiful thing when everything just works out perfect. I wish you luck with Penn, but I will stick with mbc until I get results that are unacceptable. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Obturation isn't needed if the bullets fit right as they seal from the get go. As long as the alloy and lube are up to the demands of what you are doing then it all works. My experiance is the same as LH with a a wide range of loadings and no leading issues to deal with.
The weight deviations on the bullets are the lowest I found and the accuracy is the best I found to date with Penn.
Use what works best for you. I know what works for me.:)

Hondo 60
April 1, 2011, 09:54 PM
I've seen a tiny, tiny bit of leading.
Curable just by brushing 20 strokes or so with Hoppe's #9.

MBC are some GREAT folks to deal with.
if they make a mistake, they jump on it immediately.

I've ordered 5 or 6 times & will be ordering again soon.
Currently have 3 boxes of CB #11 & 2 #4s.

Will probably be a month or so til I order again.

bds
April 1, 2011, 10:41 PM
Hmmmm.... interesting how the thread went from the OP "MBC Quality" to this ... :rolleyes:

I got my various 9mm/40S&W/40ACP loads running from start to mid-high range load data with no leading or very little leading (essentially fouling/lead smear at the chamber/leade end of the barrel) that comes clean with Hoppe's #9 and copper scrubber wrapped bore brush (back and forth several times is all that's required for shiny clean barrels).

As to leading in general and discussion specific to Missouri Bullets in relation to 10/12/15/18 BHN bullets they offer, here's the thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=575244


Here are some excerpts:

A Few Comments on Cast Bullet Alloys (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCommentsCBAlloys.htm) by Glen E. Fryxell
Cast bullet hardness, specifically the hardness of the various alloys used to make cast bullets, has raised a lot of questions and confusion lately. A very common misconception is that leading is caused by the bullet being too soft and the lead gets stripped off or abraded away from the bullet's bearing surface as it passes down the bore. This misguided belief leads many new bullet casters to turn to expensive alloys like linotype, and/or elaborate heat treating methods to harden their bullets, thinking that this is the only way to prevent leading.

There are very, very few revolver applications that require a BHN of over 20. In my experience, revolver leading can almost always be traced to some other factor (inadequate lubrication, improper sizing, barrel/frame constriction, etc.). Only very rarely is barrel leading caused by the bullet being too soft. In support of this claim, let me point out that many muzzle loaders prefer bullets cast from 30-to-1 alloy (which is quite soft, BHN of about 9) and these smokepole slugs are routinely driven to 1300-1400 fps. In addition, high-velocity .22 Long Rifle ammo uses an even softer bullet at over 1200 fps (and if a .22 leads, it's a gun problem, not an ammo problem). Elmer Keith's favorite cast bullet alloy was 16-to-1 lead/tin, which has a BHN of only 11. This is the alloy that gave a roaring birth to the .44 Magnum using plain-based cast bullets loaded to 1400+ fps. Properly loaded and lubed, Elmer's alloy will leave a magnum revolver barrel shiny and clean after a long day shooting.

Cast Bullet Alloys and Obturation - http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

Cast Bullets Articles of Glen E. Fryxell - http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

LASC Cast Bullet Notes Page (lead bullet compositions and hardness testing) - http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

wcavasos
April 1, 2011, 11:03 PM
Well now BDS. That was an interesting read about the Brinell Hardness Number of modern manufactured cast bullets. I was totally unaware. I will have to look up and see what chamber pressure my reloads will generate to see if I'm getting what I'm paying for. Of course... I also think that it's time to pick up a chronograph to test them against other cast bullets. Then again... im accurate and im not getting any leading of the cylinder throat or barrel so I guess im good. Hmmmmmm.

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 12:29 AM
You can't load high BH bullets under minimum starting loads and not expect leading. If you need light target loads, buy the appropriate bullets. Sounds like Penn does better for your load.

WHAT???? I know you're not serious, this is April fools right? Lets see, lead, if soft enough melts when exposed to heat. You say if I load a light load (less heat) it would be expected to create a leading problem but if you put a LOT of powder in the load (mush more heat) there wont be leading. April fools.

You guys keep making me say these things by making such ridiculous theories. Penn Bullets don't lead any of the barrels of any of my guns with hot or extremely light loads, and Penn Bullets has the exact same Brinell label as Missouri Bullets bullets. SO that being said, either Satan enters my gun barrels when I fore a MB through it or the Brinell of MB's is not what the label says it is because what you're saying is flat out impossible to happen and is proven to be false with all my experiences.

Hard bullets need more pressure to seal. Your leading probably came from gas cutting from that long Glock throat with a bullet that was not obturated. You were melting your bullets.

First of all I don't own a Glock, if you go back and re read that post I said the leading in my 9 MM was so bad I started worrying that the same reason a Glock barrel can explode might happen to my gun. That didn't mean I own a Glock but that the rifling of my FN and CZ 9MM's were leading to a dangerous point.

Maybe your lead bullets need all the finessing you guys talk about but in more than 30 years of loading lead bullets for a variety of guns I have never had any kind of problem with leading as I did with the Missouri Bullets; light loads, max loads more than max way under minimum load nothing did what I experienced with MB's bullets.

I might add that I spend a lot of time reading and investigating as I', not one to have more than 30 year experience under my belt and think I know it all so I seek to learn all the time. I have NEVER seen any text stating that these gyrations you guys say I should be going through to try and get these bullets to work without making a mess of my gun. I mean there's another thread here somewhere started by a guy that had the exact same problem I had and all but word for word experimented and had the same results I did. How you guys all shoot them with no leading is a mystery, maybe your barrels are Teflon coated or maybe you don't know what leading looks like but we're (myslef and the other guy/thread) worlds apart and that probably isnt true. I have to think that all these gyrations and try this, or your loading this wrong etc. is a bunch of stories (and it is in my experience) trying to cover up for a known problem; for whatever reason; I don't care. All I know is I had a serious problem as another guy did and you're not likely at all to convince me it's suddenly, after decades of successful loading, my fault. So I'll say it again, rather than to keep posting these desperate attempts to make this look like I did something wrong or don't know what I'm doing to cover this up, quit posting these excuses and I'll quit posting the damning information that you seem to be making excuses for or covering for. Really I have no beef with anyone and I'm not making this up and I'm not nuts. OK? I just found the alloys to be very inconsistent especially when one bullet leads dangerously and another just leads more than I've ever seen but manageable. That tells even a novice there's an alloy recipe issue.

bds
April 2, 2011, 01:13 AM
Penn Bullets has the exact same Brinell label as Missouri Bullets bullets.
Ummm ... I don't think so.

Missouri Bullets come in 18, 15, 12, and 10 BHN.

Some bullets come in more than one BHN, like 45ACP 200 gr SWC in 18 and 12, so you can select the hardness based on the particular application (powder/charge). Some bullets come in only one hardness (like 15 BHN 9mm 147 gr).

I have shot 21-24 hardness bullets before and had to push them high to near max load data to bump the base enough to minimize leading in MY pistols/barrels. With 18 BHN Missouri Bullets, I can shoot mid to high range load data in MY pistols/barrels and get minimal to no leading. With 12 BHN bullets, I can shoot even lighter target loads with no leading.

My loads vary from light/mild loads to near max loads. I like having options. :D

GLOOB
April 2, 2011, 02:53 AM
WHAT???? I know you're not serious, this is April fools right? Lets see, lead, if soft enough melts when exposed to heat.

Not exactly. Lead, if hard enough, melts when exposed to heat. The harder the lead, the more it is alloyed with other metals. This brings the melting point down. But there is more than one source of lead fouling. There's no "best" bullet. There are different alloys for different purposes, and it's not just about cost.

As for the consistency of the bullets, that's another matter. But the narrowmindedness and lack of consistency in your post doesn't do much for your credibility. I don't even see where Penn Bullets lists the BH of their bullets. If I emailed them, I wonder what they would say? Keeping in mind
Missouri Bullets come in 18, 15, 12, and 10 BHN.
And as you say, Penn Bullets has the exact same Brinell label as Missouri Bullets bullets.

"What is the Brinnel Hardness of your bullets? Are they 10, 12, 15, or 18 hardness?"
"They're the same as MBC bullets."
Ok, matter solved.

blarby
April 2, 2011, 03:48 AM
" Obturation isn't needed if the bullets fit right as they seal from the get go. "

Interesting blanket stetement...I think BDS kinda covered this'n, so I'll leave it at that.

As far as the uniformity and quality of the goods offered : I highly doubt (but sincerely hope) everyone goes to the lengths "I" do with my component prepping and measurement. I would certainly hope they did if they were in public bashin' my product.

With that said, if you do : GREAT, you are certifiable on certain days, just like me. Lets compare some notes with empiracal data like those above, and find out where we see differences in the products quality.

If you DON'T : Lets not jump on the chest thumpin bandwagon of how MBC lead bullets sullied your glock riflings' honor.

You might be right. In the interest of fairness, you might have gotten a horrible batch of bullets.

Lets check out your measurements of this product before you loaded it and turned it into your product.

Which bullets in the lot caused you leading ? At what powder weight and with what type of powder ? Was it the ones that were 2 grains heavier, or the ones that were 0.01 inches longer ? Was it the charge .2 grains hotter, or colder where you had the issue ?

Do you know ? Did you save all of your data from measuring your bullets and powder weights for the rounds, and fire them in quality controlled groups to determine where and when your leading was occurring ?

Or perhaps on the off chance did you : A) simply buy a box, blindly trust in fate that they were perfect and then B) jam 'em into your brass as fast as possible to go pop paper, and then C) say they stunk when you got half way through the box ? You mentioned you got leading after 50 or 100 of them. It could have been the third one you shot that started it all....did ya check ?


In this particular area of products a great amount of judgment on the quality of machined components/goods is passed on to the manufacturer which, in all honesty, rests with the end user.

Even a product made to great specifications and tolerances, when used improperly, will produce poor results. On that same note, not all products manufactured in bulk are identical...they just have to be similar. It's up to us to grade our components fairly- and if you see an issue, FOR GODS SAKE LET ALL OF US KNOW : Thats what forums are for :)

I do believe a lot of your issues can be answered here : http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=581781 by folks far more versed in the pistols than I.

Once I have evaluated the results of my firing(s), I will be able to compare it to the results of others who have likewise used these materials.

If I find my experience with this product differs from theirs, I will be able to locate the reasons for the differences- more often than not I find that "I", not the components are to blame. ( this happens to me in miniature modeling and woodworking as well as ammunition squishing :D) However, I have found faulty components in the past, and am assured that I will find them in the future.

Thats why I keep notes, and realize a good thing when I see it.


In closing, I apologize in advance if I have struck a harsh chord with you.

I, perhaps in ignorance or folly as you regard it seem to have found a product that to me -and by my evaluation and research- is outstanding in manufacture and deserves to be applauded.

To see my seemingly well reasoned pronouncement of such, in support of a vendor well recommended on this forum; hijacked with unsupported anecdotal, pithy disregard for that vendors current and most importantly in this regard potential customers has noticeably struck a chord with me- and I thought I would share that with you in a method consistent with our membership to The High Road.

blarby
April 2, 2011, 03:52 AM
Quote:
Hard bullets need more pressure to seal. Your leading probably came from gas cutting from that long Glock throat with a bullet that was not obturated. You were melting your bullets.
First of all I don't own a Glock, if you go back and re read that post I said the leading in my 9 MM was so bad I started worrying that the same reason a Glock barrel can explode might happen to my gun. That didn't mean I own a Glock but that the rifling of my FN and CZ 9MM's were leading to a dangerous point.

"I experience extreme leading in more than 50 under 100 rounds. There's no way I could use those bullets for my steel target shooting. I wouldn't make it to the end of the shoot and as I said, accuracy goes out the window as the barrel gets blocked. One time it was actually so bad I feared barrel failure as you are warned not to fire lead through a Glock.
"

This would lead a reasonable person to believe you were speaking of YOUR glock, btw.

Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets
April 2, 2011, 05:53 AM
As for the consistency of the bullets, that's another matter. I don't even see where Penn Bullets lists the BH of their bullets. If I emailed them, I wonder what they would say?

I'll jump in here just enough to save you the trouble of e-mailing me.
I don't list BHN numbers and I have extolled on this before and list this info on the site as well as to why I don't list those numbers.

First off I run 4 alloys for the lineup of bullets. I operate my own foundry to blend each alloy for its intended application.

The first is a 30 to 1 lead tin alloy used soley for blackpowder type bullets in some of the 45/70 bullets that I make for that type of application.

The next alloy which has become very popular and has been very dominant in Cowboy Action is a about a 12 bhn alloy suitable for lower velocity use and I rate this for about 1000 fps and I have had people push it to 1200 fps with good results but I don't rate it for that. I use this same alloy for those bullets listed as Target Grade and list it as the Cowboy Action Alloy for those bullets commonly used in that sport.

The next is our Premium Grade which measures around 20 but is very strong and ductile compared to other alloys that measure high but are far more brittle and more prone to lead fouling problems. This alloy is extremly versatile in that it does well in the broadest range of velocities form low to high. This alloy will hold up to 1800 fps and I have had some push it harder than that up to 2000fps. It is a superb alloy that I have been making for almost 30 years.

The final is our Casull Alloy that was developed for the very high pressures associated with the .454. It is over 22 BHN and features a 2% silver based additive to further increase the ductlity of the alloy and prevent fracturing of the alloy under pressures of 65,000 or more. It is velocity rated to 2100fps.
I use this on a select number of Speciality Bullets within the line up.
Each bullet listed telsl you which alloy I offer for that bullet. Some bullets I offer both the Target Grade or the Premium Grade alloy for those that may need a choice for their application.

I don't like BHN numbers simply because they are so limited in what they tell you about an alloy. BHN only tells you how hard something is period and is no way indicative of an alloys strength and ductility. Those factors are what I consider to be far more important.

The alloy is only one part of what can be a complex mix of variables when encountering lead fouling problems. I cover more of this in detail on the website www.pennbullets.com.

Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets
April 2, 2011, 06:01 AM
Lubrication plays a big factor in this as well. The reason Fryxell says you can push almost dead soft bullets to high velocities and the bullets that Elmer made for the 44s that were pushed so hard was due to the fact the the BP bullets and Elmers designs had a lot of capacity to carry large amounts of lube. Increase the lube and you can decrease the alloy strength. Veral Smith of LBT fame explains this more thourghly in his book Jacketed performance with cast bullets.

MissouriBullet
April 2, 2011, 08:46 AM
I'll jump in here just enough to save you the trouble of e-mailing me.
I don't list BHN numbers and I have extolled on this before and list this info on the site as well as to why I don't list those numbers.
.
But nearly every bullet listed on your page includes a BHN specification, Bob, indicating that you believe the hardness coefficient has at least some value, right?

Here's an example, from the description of your 200 grain .44-40 bullet page:
This bullet is made from our Cowboy Action Alloy which features a Brinell of around 12-14 and is perfectly suited for Cowboy Action shooting providing better sealing thru obturation (expansion) of the bullet bases at the lower pressures and velocities associated with this type of application. This alloy also offers the added advantage of less splatter and bounce back when engaging steel targets thus providing an added measure of safety to the shooter and other participants.

Here's the description for the H&G #68:
I also offer the H&G 68 in a Target Grade version which is less expensive than the Match Grade. The Target Grade features an alloy of around 14 BHN that is rated to 850-900 FPS as opposed to the Match Grade which features a BHN of 20+. This alloy is especially good on steel targets as it provides less splatter and bounce back to the shooter on these types of targets. The Target Grade weight variations are held under 1.5 grains maximum thus making the Target Grade a very consistent performer. In addition the Target Grade can be offered with discounts for large volume clubs, groups or individual shooters. Call for special large volume pricing.

Etc.

MissouriBullet
April 2, 2011, 08:52 AM
Well now BDS. That was an interesting read about the Brinell Hardness Number of modern manufactured cast bullets. I was totally unaware. I will have to look up and see what chamber pressure my reloads will generate to see if I'm getting what I'm paying for. Of course... I also think that it's time to pick up a chronograph to test them against other cast bullets. Then again... im accurate and im not getting any leading of the cylinder throat or barrel so I guess im good. Hmmmmmm.
Actually, there is an article on our website that I wrote up in an attempt to address the science of it all.

It's here: http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 10:53 AM
Quote:
WHAT???? I know you're not serious, this is April fools right? Lets see, lead, if soft enough melts when exposed to heat.

Not exactly. Lead, if hard enough, melts when exposed to heat. The harder the lead, the more it is alloyed with other metals. This brings the melting point down. But there is more than one source of lead fouling. There's no "best" bullet. There are different alloys for different purposes, and it's not just about cost.

As for the consistency of the bullets, that's another matter. But the narrowmindedness and lack of consistency in your post doesn't do much for your credibility. I don't even see where Penn Bullets lists the BH of their bullets. If I emailed them, I wonder what they would say? Keeping in mind

Quote:
Missouri Bullets come in 18, 15, 12, and 10 BHN.

And as you say,
Quote:
Penn Bullets has the exact same Brinell label as Missouri Bullets bullets.

"What is the Brinnel Hardness of your bullets? Are they 10, 12, 15, or 18 hardness?"
"They're the same as MBC bullets."
Ok, matter solved.

No that doesn't solve the matter at all, what you're leaving out is that when I buy a bullet with a BHN of "X" in the box is everything from "W" to "Z". That is the meat of what's being said here. SO the fact that I buy a box of bullets from MB with an 18 BHN and a box from Penn Bullets with an 18 BHN ad Penn Bullets are in FACT a 18 BHN and MS's bullet is whatever of a poor mix in the melting bucket BHN doesn't solve the problem, it is the problem. I find different leading within a box of MB bullets that pretty much can only mean the alloy isn't prepared properly and made into ingots that are melted into the depositing pot. SO when you quoted me as saying "Penn Bullets has the exact same Brinell label as Missouri Bullets bullets." that means the bullets actually have to have the same Brinell but they don't; that's what you're not getting but trying to explain away accusing me of being wrong. Either that of I have a lead deposit fairy in my gun that's trying to make MB look bad.

Not exactly. Lead, if hard enough, melts when exposed to heat. The harder the lead, the more it is alloyed with other metals. This brings the melting point down. But there is more than one source of lead fouling. There's no "best" bullet. There are different alloys for different purposes, and it's not just about cost.

So you're saying soft lead when exposed to heat doesn't melt? LOL This is April 2nd, April fools is over. I'm sure if you a dedicated MB fan as you seem to be with your bizarre stories to defend their product, but I buy 6 or 8 different caliber and Brinell combinations from Penn Bullets and none of them give me any leading problems. See to me THAT solves the issue not all these creative stories about powders, hot loads, light loads; I have never had to adjust a load in more than 30 years to curb leading but to MB customers that seems to be the norm which it shouldn't be but that's your problem and I quit making it mine.

Look it's clear throughout this forum that people will say what ever they can or think they have to to defend MB; there are a lot of very loyal customers here and that's your choice. But the other thread complaining about leading and my 2 month attempt to solve the problem making the same observations and having the same experiences as the other thread make a clear case for bullet/alloy inconsistency; stamping 18 BHN on the box doesnt make 18 BHN bullets. I had the experience I had for which there was no solution but to change suppliers which turned out to be 100% successful, and no hokey story about any failure on my part is going to change what I experienced having more than 44 years shooting experience. Really some of your excuses are insulting; it's a problem at least for me. I mean one guy even goes to the extent of switching the issue to his misunderstanding that I tried to insinuate that I had a Glock, what ever that has to do with leading but that I used the potential danger of a leaded Glock barrel exploding to describe my fear when I saw how bad the leading got with MB Bullets. You guys are losing credibility with such desperate stories that are flat out false or irrelevant.

I'll say if for the third time now, stop fighting against my real life experience if you want to help MB from losing more face; You're just making it worse by creating more bizarre excuses and false information, twisting my statements to try and cover up this issue. You've completely lost credibility with me, most of this is a bunch of hooey.

THE GLOCK ISSUE:
This is exactly what I said
One time it was actually so bad I feared barrel failure as you are warned not to fire lead through a Glock.

Let me take you through it and explain what it says; "One time it was actually so bad " meaning the leading in my barrel of an undetermined brand gun was so bad the rifling started disappearing..."I feared barrel failure as you are warned not to fire lead through a Glock " remembering that if you fire lead through a glock, it can result in barrel failure from leading because of how a Glock is rifled but I'm seeing such horrible leading I'm wondering if the Glock failure could happen to me with my FN or CZ.

Does that help people understand so you don't falsely use that against me because I had leading problems with MB Bullets? And please don't accuse me of narrow mindness and inconsistencies, that is an absolutely false statement. I have said the same thing over and over to the point that I'm probably just going to unsubscribe because you're making fools of yourselves with your excuses and bizarre statements.

blarby
April 2, 2011, 12:01 PM
" I have never had to adjust a load in more than 30 years to curb leading but to MB customers that seems to be the norm which it shouldn't be but that's your problem and I quit making it mine."

The fact that these bullets are indeed not IDENTICAL to this purported magic bullet you've been using for the last 30 years does not surprise me.

Any data showing us what bullet you are referring to, or any data on the bullets you fired however are conspicuously absent.

"Look it's clear throughout this forum that people will say what ever they can or think they have to to defend MB; there are a lot of very loyal customers here and that's your choice. But the other thread complaining about leading and my 2 month attempt to solve the problem making the same observations and having the same experiences as the other thread make a clear case for bullet/alloy inconsistency"

The expression anecdotal evidence has two distinct meanings.
(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.
(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.
In both cases the conclusion is unreliable; it may not be untrue, but it doesn't follow from the "evidence".

"stamping 18 BHN on the box doesnt make 18 BHN bullets"

According to the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd Edition, 1989), empiric is derived from the ancient Greek for experience, έμπειρία, which is ultimately derived from έυ in + πεἳρα trial, experiment. Therefore, empirical data is information that is derived from the trials and errors of experience. In this way, the empirical method is similar to the experimental method.

In this case, my LEE BH tester concurs that MBC bullets are indeed BH18.

The tool I use is listed here :http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Lead-Hardness-Tester/

Do you own a Brinell tester ? What do your readings show ?

As a surefire guard against witchery , I would happily offer up samples from my trove to assure anyone that they are indeed BHN 18.

"I'll say if for the third time now, stop fighting against my real life experience if you want to help MB from losing more face; You're just making it worse by creating more bizarre excuses and false information, twisting my statements to try and cover up this issue. You've completely lost credibility with me, most of this is a bunch of hooey."

Actually, I haven't seen anything other than hooey from your side of the fence. And no, just for clarification : your alleged 30 years of reloading experience in this instance does not to me generate any truly remarkable feelings of expertise as so demonstrated. If we were to take these numbers ( the only ones you've provided) at face value....you found the magic powder and bullet combination on day one 30 years ago without ever altering that recipe, except to deviate to MBC which performed miserably using your old recipe.

My direct experience, being shown above, is both repeatable and true as demonstrated. I would also like to note almost as an afterthought, that during my initial review i found it wanting in character to disparage another vendor by name and in the best and most fairest difference to our current economy felt correct in doing so.

You are however - in reference to the BHN issue - approaching something that you have both written, and is demonstrably untrue :

Definition of LIBEL

1
a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought
b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2
a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression
b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel

So I'd say watch your step. Not my company, my reputation, or my pocketbook you are dangerously slandering about there.

"I have said the same thing over and over to the point that I'm probably just going to unsubscribe because you're making fools of yourselves with your excuses and bizarre statements."


Yes, you have said and left unsaid the same thing over and over : Your "experience" allows you to completely abandon the collection and use of any necessary relevant data that would allow you to back up your potentially libelous claims.


Well......if thats how ya feel- knowing that we as members require some sort of proof before you blast one of the vendors that frequents this board....

I think gramma said it best :

Don't let the door hit ya, where the good lord split ya !


I will post my shooting results here from the range this weekend, once I have those results in hand.

I would also like to note that this thread ORIGINALLY had to do with the quality of the manufactured bullets I received, not as to the actual results of their use.....which was going to be a separate thread, but given that this one's been hijacked a-plenty into that direction I don't see a need for a second thread at this point.

blarby
April 2, 2011, 12:08 PM
Also, for what its worth :

@ Robert your bio says you've been making bullets since the 70's commercially. #$%!, thats a long time :)

I'm not trying to defame your company or product BTW, I've gone out of my way to just stick to my defense of what I received in the mail 2 days and got excited about.

I hope this thread is making both you and brad laugh so hard you snort coffee through your nose, sending instant messages back and forth about how loyal your customers are.

I have bought penn bullets before, for reloading for a 45/70 that belonged to my father. He still has a bunch of the cartridges, he said the bullets work great.

Way before my time here at THR....got caught coming here for pistol reloading info..... see what happens ?

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 12:17 PM
blarby you'd make a perfect candidate for a government office running on a democrat ticket. What a bunch of double talk.

Very impressive definition of Brinell but that has nothing to do with labeling bullets as 187 BHN when in fact they cant possible be because of sloppy casting mixing an alloy in the pot.

I'm not even going to bother going through your post of errors, exaggerations and twisted information but to say do your friends at MB a favor and stop posting in this thread so you don't draw even more attention to this problem.

Or you could answer how bullets I fire from MB with labeled specifications lead my barrels terrible while bullets from Penn Bullets with the same specifications don't led my barrels at all using identical guns and loads? I've said this all along and nobody can explain why but that I must change my load but I don't need to change loads with Penn Bullets. Face the tragic truth, there's a problem and the more you guys try and explain it away with the most ridiculous explanations and stories having nothing to do with the issue, the more guilty you all look.

I gave those bullets back to the guy I got them from so if you want to come to my range we'll fire them and fire Penn Bullets and then you can tell me MB's don't lead barrels with egg all over your face. You're done, you're making yourself look like a fool; it's time to stop it.

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 12:21 PM
Buy the way I'm done here. This is getting way beyond stupid and insulting to my intelligence. You guys shoot whatever you want I'll follow my experience and do what I want and we'll all be happy. I could really care less, while this is an obsession for you folks. Than speaks volumes in itself.

bds
April 2, 2011, 12:28 PM
But the other thread complaining about leading and my 2 month attempt to solve the problem making the same observations and having the same experiences as the other thread make a clear case for bullet/alloy inconsistency
Lead Head, that's why forums like THR exist - to share experience and knowledge/wisdom of others to address and solve problems so those new to reloading don't repeat the same problem or those having problems can have their problems solved. I don't want to be curt, but you don't sound like someone who is serious about getting to the true cause of your leading problem. But instead, just flatly making some blanket/generalize statements that are contradictory to the results of some experienced people.

I am guessing here but Missouri Bullets probably have over several tens of thousands of customer base and in the past several years they have been producing their bullets, I have seen numerous positive posts/comments based on personal experience and only "a few" complaints that were resolved. This is statistically, large enough sampling universe with highly consistent outcomes.

if a .22 leads, it's a gun problem, not an ammo problem
Here's a convincing example. .22 LR lead bullet is on the soft side (I believe around 10 BHN). So if thousands of shooters do not get leading in their barrels but a few get leading in their barrels, is it the fault of the bullet manufacturer? No.


THR forum allows posting of shooters'/reloaders' actual experience with particular equipment/products. Believe me, many are not shy about posting positive and/or negative experiences with even high-end equipment/products and how they resolved their problems and/or what the manufacturers' responses were (or lack there of). This is an awesome service THR provides to the shooting/reloading community (probably on a national/global scale) as those in the market for these particular equipment/products will get familiar with how their prospective equipment/products will perform and what kind of customer service they can expect if they have any problems. THR posters will continue to post their experiences with Missouri Bullets (after all, that's the primary objective of THR ;)). If their experience is positive, then they will post positive comments. If their experience is negative, then they will post negative comments and the response from Missouri Bullets. If overwhelming majority of posts are positive, perhaps it's just that Missouri Bullets simply provide great products with great service.

blarby
April 2, 2011, 12:58 PM
"I'm not even going to bother going through your post of errors, exaggerations and twisted information but to say do your friends at MB a favor and stop posting in this thread so you don't draw even more attention to this problem."

It would be a short list.

"Buy the way I'm done here. This is getting way beyond stupid and insulting to my intelligence. You guys shoot whatever you want I'll follow my experience and do what I want and we'll all be happy. I could really care less, while this is an obsession for you folks. Than speaks volumes in itself."

Sounds like a plan.

Go hijack someone elses thread :)

wcavasos
April 2, 2011, 02:48 PM
Haha, well not all is lost. I am now aware of the BHN and have something to research and learn about.Thanks MB, I will take a look at your article on BHN, sounds like a great place to start. Looking forward to reading the range results. My experiance has always been great. Weird thing is... I think I have been extremely lucky when it comes to lead fouling. I would have to look at all the boxes in my garage to see all the brands of bullets Iv'e used but I know my last three are from MBC and I have no fouling to date.

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 03:56 PM
Lead Head, that's why forums like THR exist - to share experience and knowledge/wisdom of others to address and solve problems so those new to reloading don't repeat the same problem or those having problems can have their problems solved. I don't want to be curt, but you don't sound like someone who is serious about getting to the true cause of your leading problem. But instead, just flatly making some blanket/generalize statements that are contradictory to the results of some experienced people.

Well the problem is established at least in my world. I have positively fixed the problem by changing to Penn Bullets and I am as assured as can be it's not my guns or my loads as I have posted countless times. So we're done.

As far as me being serious about solving the problem, how can you possible say such a thing except to be putting another defensive spin on my posts? I was serious and still am, I switched to Penn Bullets and the problem is absolute fixed and I don't have to experiment with loads to try and find one that doesn't lead up my barrels with a problemed alloy anymore, I can find loads that I can drive nails with. I cant be bothered chasing bullets that are problematic; my forte is exhibition shooting and steel targets. If you're having good results, good for you. I will keep an open invitation to anyone who wants to watch me shoot the MS's that are problematic since my buddy still has a thousand of them in a coffee can loaded. Then you can see that I'm not blowing smoke.

I am glad to have been able to bring this problem to light so the people who need to find the solution can work on it. Otherwise I would appreciate it if you would all quit spinning my posts blaming this one me and accusing me of being inconsistent and what ever else you've been using to spin my information.

Thank you all for your concern; problem solved.

blarby
April 2, 2011, 04:11 PM
"Buy the way I'm done here."

We should be so lucky.

:cuss:

Go start a pro-Penn bullet thread and bash MBC there !

There is nothing wrong with MBC alloy.

Its as hard as they state it is. They stated they proved it. I proved it to myself. None of these 3 FACTS is in dispute to me.

I'm glad you found a bullet that works for you from Penn.

The alloy contained in the bullet(s) you are using from Penn may either be softer, harder, or have different metals in its alloy for ductility such as silver( an interesting thing I'm going to have to look into shortly). You haven't even let us in on the big secret of which magic bullet specifically you are using.

However, your statement in regard to their ( MBC's) alloy not being the hardness they specify is false. Plain. Simple. Clear. Proven....over and over again.

The fact that you couldn't use them in the way you intended is a shame.

With that, I bid you good day sir !

Seedtick
April 2, 2011, 05:56 PM
There ain't no reason for anyone to get their panties all wadded up over this. It doesn't make MBC look bad that Lead Head didn't like the results he got when he shot their bullets. It does just the opposite actually.

I don't know how many customers MBC has. But, if all but the 3 or 4 we've seen on the forums are perfectly happy with their bullets....well, that seems like some awesome advertising to the QUALITY {the original topic of this thread} of Missouri Bullet Company (http://www.missouribullet.com/index.php)'s bullets. That is the message that this thread is speaking.

Am I wrong? I don't think so.

If those very few handloaders who weren't happy with their results with Brad's bullets (http://www.missouribullet.com/index.php) then they should try some of Bob's bullets (http://www.pennbullets.com/). (Penn Bullets INC (http://www.pennbullets.com/)) It worked for Lead Head maybe it will work for them. And, I hope it does. That's really what we're after here. Ain't it? The High Road (http://www.thehighroad.org/)

We are always saying that each individual gun will have unique 'wants' for what makes it shoot. Right? I have no reason to not believe what Lead Head has said based on what he has posted in this thread. I'm glad he has figured out how to make his INDIVIDUAL UNIQUE gun shoot to his satisfaction.

I will continue to shoot Missouri Bullet Company (http://www.missouribullet.com/index.php) bullets for as long as I am satisfied with my results. (absolutely no leading in 8 handguns 6 different calibers BTW) I seriously doubt I will ever need to try any one else's lead bullets because I am 100% satisfied with what I already have. I just can't see that changing but I was convinced that the last Presidential Election would have never turned out like it did. So......??

So what's all the fuss about? Huh?

Seedtick

:)

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 06:14 PM
So what's all the fuss about? Huh?

I think it's a simple case of not paying attention. My first post made it perfectly clear yet everybody wants to convince me I'm wrong; that's when things go wrong in the communications area. Brad and I had a wonderful exchange of PM's where I shared what I experienced while others seemed to take it personally and blame me for the leading problem I had with MB bullets. Seems they understand now though.

blarby
April 2, 2011, 07:13 PM
sigh.....

Travis Two
April 2, 2011, 07:52 PM
But nearly every bullet listed on your page includes a BHN specification, Bob, indicating that you believe the hardness coefficient has at least some value, right?

Here's an example, from the description of your 200 grain .44-40 bullet page:
This bullet is made from our Cowboy Action Alloy which features a Brinell of around 12-14 and is perfectly suited for Cowboy Action shooting providing better sealing thru obturation (expansion) of the bullet bases at the lower pressures and velocities associated with this type of application. This alloy also offers the added advantage of less splatter and bounce back when engaging steel targets thus providing an added measure of safety to the shooter and other participants.

Here's the description for the H&G #68:
I also offer the H&G 68 in a Target Grade version which is less expensive than the Match Grade. The Target Grade features an alloy of around 14 BHN that is rated to 850-900 FPS as opposed to the Match Grade which features a BHN of 20+. This alloy is especially good on steel targets as it provides less splatter and bounce back to the shooter on these types of targets. The Target Grade weight variations are held under 1.5 grains maximum thus making the Target Grade a very consistent performer. In addition the Target Grade can be offered with discounts for large volume clubs, groups or individual shooters. Call for special large volume pricing.

Etc.

Yes I believe he does consider it at some point at least in the conversations I have had about it.

Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets
April 2, 2011, 08:27 PM
But nearly every bullet listed on your page includes a BHN specification, Bob, indicating that you believe the hardness coefficient has at least some value, right?

Here's an example, from the description of your 200 grain .44-40 bullet page:
This bullet is made from our Cowboy Action Alloy which features a Brinell of around 12-14 and is perfectly suited for Cowboy Action shooting providing better sealing thru obturation (expansion) of the bullet bases at the lower pressures and velocities associated with this type of application. This alloy also offers the added advantage of less splatter and bounce back when engaging steel targets thus providing an added measure of safety to the shooter and other participants.

Here's the description for the H&G #68:
I also offer the H&G 68 in a Target Grade version which is less expensive than the Match Grade. The Target Grade features an alloy of around 14 BHN that is rated to 850-900 FPS as opposed to the Match Grade which features a BHN of 20+. This alloy is especially good on steel targets as it provides less splatter and bounce back to the shooter on these types of targets. The Target Grade weight variations are held under 1.5 grains maximum thus making the Target Grade a very consistent performer. In addition the Target Grade can be offered with discounts for large volume clubs, groups or individual shooters. Call for special large volume pricing.

Etc.

In the beggining I did not list BHN numbers on the site but basically after awhile I got tired of all the phone calls asking me for such. I would end up in long coversations about BHN and alloy strength and ductlity and obturation and proper fitment and realise I was spending way too much time on the phone so I gave in sort of and started posting some numbers. In the end of these long conversations the customer was thankful and placed orders but it still ate up a lot of time. So I gave in on this to some point as people wanted numbers to compare as if that would somehow quantify the differances among the various mfgs out there. It didn't then and still doesn't do it now. I put the rest of the info on the site under the reloading tips section for those that wanted to learn about it.
You will also note that I was sort of " ranging the numbers" by saying around and plus without being precise on exact set numbers trying to give them enough information without getting too hung up on the BHN thing. It has meaning/value but not as much as people think it has or want it to be. Its just one more piece of information in a range of variables. Its a guide not an absolute.


Fitment above all else is paramount. Everything else is second and third and so on down the line.

That is part of the reason I am doing so much custom sizing these days. Customers are checking their guns and getting bullets to fit and getting better results.
Gunsmiths and places like Cylinder Smith are doing a nice buisness in modifying undersized cylinders to make the guns shoot cast bullets well.
I am seeing a lot of oversized 9mm barrels as well and that is causing a lot of problems in accuracy and leading as well. Larger bullets that fit will usually solve the probelm.

I do sit back and take these exchanges witha grain of humor. It reminds me of the days of Chevy vs Ford when I was growing up. I was a diehard Chevy man in those days. Today I am all Ford.
Its nice to see passion on both sides as it were over brand perferance as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. Kinda like the Dillon vs Lee vs Hornaday threads we see pop up from time to time.

In the end it only drives Brad and me to work ever harder to please our customers and they are the ones who end up being the real winners in all of this. We all learn by doing.

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 08:34 PM
Kinda like the Dillon vs Lee vs Hornaday threads we see pop up from time to time.

Hornady Lock N Load's the only way to go LOL

bds
April 2, 2011, 09:34 PM
Hornady Lock N Load's the only way to go LOL
See, we can agree on some things ... :D

When we let the dust settle, I think what we will ultimately realize is that this is the product of free market place. Our consumer demands drive the manufacturing end to provide the products we want/need.

It used to be that bullet casters/manufacturers made their bullets and the customers could either take it or leave it. It was either jacketed or hard hard cast bullets. That's all we had to choose from. Now days, it's premium bonded jacketed, copper jacketed, brass jacketed, copper plated, hollow based copper plated, polymer coated, moly coated, baked on moly coated, and hard cast of various hardness/alloy mixtures.

Why is Missouri Bullets offering bullets in various BHN (18, 15, 12, 10)? Because the market demand is there. If reloading consumers only wanted 18 BHN bullets, Brad would be offering only one BHN bullets. But today is the world of countless pistols with varying degrees of sizes/differences in barrel bore diameters, barrel leade distances and rifling/chamber differences. One bullet hardness may not suit all these different variables. Just look at XD pistols. They require extremely short rounded bullet nose profile to feed and extract properly - And Brad offers short 45ACP 200 gr RNFP (typically loaded to 1.195" OAL) so XD owners can also enjoy shooting lead bullets. If XD pistols did not exist, Brad would not have the need to offer this particular bullet.

A reloading friend with an oversized Taurus PT145 barrel was having problem with 18 BHN bullets at lower start-mid charges. When we had better results with softer 12 BHN bullets, he was a happy camper! It was much better than, "I think you may need to push the charge to near max or a different pistol" :eek: If 12 BHN bullets weren't available, he probably would have gave up on lead bullets and gone to plated/jacketed bullets at higher prices (he's retired on fixed income). Now he gets to shoot about twice as much for the same price. Life is good!

For me, MBC quality goes beyond accurate lead bullets that produce tight shot groups. It's also about great customer service and greater BHN bullet choices I can custom tailor to my particular loads.

Furthermore, with the recent economic downturn and many people feeling the financial pinch (including me!), I have looked to shooting lead bullets to stretch my reloading/shooting dollars. Guns are cheap when compared to ammunition we fired them out of - really, do some math and you'll agree.

Robert Palermo /Penn Bullets
April 2, 2011, 09:46 PM
Your'e both wrong. Its Dillon.:evil:

Yarddog
April 2, 2011, 09:55 PM
Quote:
What are you guys doing about the barrel leading?

Getting the right size Boolits & load em to mt saticefaction ; )
Y/D PS MBC is top notch, Great service & Thousands of rounds of Small Ball NO LEADING!!

MissouriBullet
April 2, 2011, 10:08 PM
Your'e both wrong. Its Dillon.:evil:
Camdex has 'em all whipped.

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 10:34 PM
bds you're hilarious, I have to give you the most stars for being a salesman or do you own Missouri Bullet? or maybe paid per post for your sales pitches?

What you ought to do is buy a couple thousand Penn Bullets so you know what else is out there; you just might switch suppliers.

Now I know you're going to make sure this thread finishes with the text from your three minute commercial for MB since I mentioned Penn Bullets again because you know if someone comes to this thread later they will look at the last posts. LMAO

Who's taking bets?

blarby
April 2, 2011, 11:18 PM
I got $5 says you can't measure a load to save your life.

Any takers ?

Lead Head
April 2, 2011, 11:36 PM
I got $5 says you can't measure a load to save your life.

Any takers ?
I'm going to give Bob at Penn Bullets a chance to get in on that bet before I post pictures and post my SD on money shot loads.

bds
April 2, 2011, 11:57 PM
bds you're hilarious, I have to give you the most stars for being a salesman or do you own Missouri Bullet? or maybe paid per post for your sales pitches?
Thanks! You should read some of my posts defending the virtues of (or lack there of) Lee Pro 1000 while fending off those using blue, green and the other red progressive presses! :D I also happily endorse Montana Gold, Rainier, Berry's, PowerBond, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Hornady and most recently, X-Treme bullets. :D I endorse equipment/products I have used with positive experience and when requested, why I still use them.

What you ought to do is buy a couple thousand Penn Bullets so you know what else is out there; you just might switch suppliers.
Well, actually I thought about trying Penn bullets. But I have already used several different hard cast bullets with 21-24 hardness range the past 15 years.

Lead Head
April 3, 2011, 12:13 AM
Well, actually I thought about trying Penn bullets. But I have already used several different hard cast bullets with 21-24 hardness range the past 15 years.

Hey don't be posting stuff like that when you're trying to make people think you know what you're talking about, it makes you look bad, real bad.

blarby
April 3, 2011, 12:28 AM
"You should read some of my posts defending the virtues of (or lack there of) Lee Pro 1000 while fending off those using blue, green and the other red progressive presses!"

Thankfully, I don't fall in to that " progressive " nonsense. Progressive....pfft, its like liberalism :)

As to those other red presses..... I resemble that comment !

blarby
April 3, 2011, 02:06 AM
"You should read some of my posts defending the virtues of (or lack there of) Lee Pro 1000 while fending off those using blue, green and the other red progressive presses!"

Thankfully, I don't fall in to that " progressive " nonsense. Progressive....pfft, its like liberalism :)

As to those other red presses..... I resemble that comment !

bds
April 3, 2011, 03:51 AM
Thankfully, I don't fall in to that " progressive " nonsense. Progressive....pfft, its like liberalism
You know, it's complicated ...

For some of us, we kinda don't have a choice but to use a progressive press ... I mean, how else are we going to feed our hobby? *cough* habit *cough* ... :rolleyes: If I didn't use a progressive, I would never see my wife ... or worse, my dogs may not recognize me in the middle of the night as I emerge from the reloading room! :eek:

I spent the evening loading 100 .308 rounds for tomorrow's range trip ... it took hours!

Brad should run a slogan, "Shoot 'em all you want. We'll make more" :D

GLOOB
April 3, 2011, 08:21 AM
Some people get paid to endorse products. TIL that there are some people I'd pay to kindly never mention their preference for anything I'm selling.

Anyways, I will be trying my first loads of MBC 125 gr Small Ball tomorrow, using 3 different powders, 2 different primers, and 6 different loads, total. I'll be shooting them out of a G27 with a LW barrel, as well as my G19.

I'll also be trying the 357 Action! bullets, using Unique and Winchester Auto Comp.

I won't be doing any serious accuracy testing, but I'll post my impressions as far as accuracy, smokiness, and lead fouling.

Lead Head
April 3, 2011, 08:40 AM
I won't be doing any serious accuracy testing, but I'll post my impressions as far as accuracy, smokiness, and lead fouling.

Now the truth comes out. So when you report on accuracy, you wont be serious.

These are the standards of MB user reviews. Don't worry about leading, we already know there wont be any since I'm the only one in history that had a leading problem...well no me and the guy who authored the other thread with the exact same results I had. No wonder I don't hit the lottery. I'm just saying that reading everybody's claim that Missouri Bullets all but scrub your barrel clean when you shoot them, we can assume that even if your barrel fouls so bad it blows up, you'd say there was no leading.

See when you so over sell to the point that you're obviously blowing smoke up our butts, not only credibility, but simply the honesty of posters disappears or should I say goes up in that smoke you're blowing up our butts..

GLOOB
April 3, 2011, 09:17 AM
Lead, you seem to be confused. I have not uttered one good word about MBC bullets. I'm not blowing any smoke. You seem to be confusing my questions about your credibility (and possibly sanity?) as an endorsement of one bullet manufacturer over another. That is not the case. I would gladly try a different bullet if I encounter any issues. I have 1,557 posts. I've been a member here for 2 years before I even heard of MBC bullets, and I've yet to even shoot one.

As for "serious accuracy," I am not that kind of shooter. I've never shot a handgun from a bench or rested position. And I tend to pull the trigger faster than I can load 'em. Tomorrow, I'll be shooting at various stuff that explodes, rather than punching paper. So bullets will either be hitting stuff the way I expect it, or they won't. If they go bang, hit what I'm aiming at, and don't lead my barrel, then I will have gotten my money's worth. I guess I'll find out, tomorrow, one way or another.

To be honest, I really, really hope I don't get a single spot of leading. Because you make it very difficult for me to want to side with you. If I do "join the choir," it'll be in a different church. Nothing personal. :)

BTW, this "other person" who started a similar thread, that wouldn't be you, would it? I find it curious that someone with only 24 posts comes on here to rant and rave like a loon when everyone else is being civil.

Lead Head
April 3, 2011, 10:33 AM
Lead, you seem to be confused. I have not uttered one good word about MBC bullets. I'm not blowing any smoke. You seem to be confusing my questions about your credibility (and possibly sanity?) as an endorsement of one bullet manufacturer over another. That is not the case. I would gladly try a different bullet if I encounter any issues. I have 1,557 posts. I've been a member here for 2 years before I even heard of MBC bullets, and I've yet to even shoot one.

So hold on a second, you have now diagnosed me as insane for sharing my leading problem that had the very same facts as another poster. This rises to a whole new level of "what's in it for you to be so helpful to Missouri Bullets that you would say something so ridiculous?" If any body's insane it's the people who make every excuse under the sun as to why I have a leading problem with MB's. One even stated that light loads (with less heat) will cause lead to melt while hot loads (with a lot of heat) wont melt lead; now there's a screwed up mind. The only reason he posted that was likely he learned I loaded light target loads while having that problem till I corrected him that my loads were from the hottest to under the lightest all having leading problems. Go back and read the posts before you make some embarrassing post to challenge my facts.

To be honest, I really, really hope I don't get a single spot of leading. Because you make it very difficult for me to want to side with you. If I do "join the choir," it'll be in a different church. Nothing personal.

Here's what you need to do, go back and with a sound and unbiased mind (if that's possible, read all the posts and see if I ever changed my simple story of extreme leading with Missouri Bullets. The only reason You might think that I'm a "Choir" as you call me is that every time I posted the same information over and over, someone tries and twist my story or blame my loads and too many other gyrations of excuses for me to remember which causes me to restate my facts that never really got through to the people here marketing Missouri Bullets. I mean lets face the facts, do a search on Missouri Bullets on this entire Forum and if you can be the least bit honest with yourself as your read people salivating all over themselves over the Miraculous Missouri Bullets you'd have to conclude that either Missouri Bullets owns or has a strong financial interest in The High Road Forum or the posters are paid for their exaggerations and desperate defenses of the quality of Missouri Bullets. I'm sure you wont be able to see that but, like I've said before I have no beef with MB but for all the scrubbing I endured and no interest whatsoever in bashing them maliciously. I found and fire a great bullet that doesn't foul my barrel and I'm happy, that's all I care about. It's just kind of intriguing to see so many people trip over themselves pumping up Missouri Bullets so much that the excuse we like them doesnt even begin to rise to the level of defense and abusing people with a different story that goes on here.

BTW, this "other person" who started a similar thread, that wouldn't be you, would it? I find it curious that someone with only 24 posts comes on here to rant and rave like a loon when everyone else is being civil.

Ahhhh no I didn't start the post, you can visit it at the URL provided and see that that OP states the same issues I do. Strike out on that accusation.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=575244&highlight=myth

So common guys have some integrity and accept that Missouri Bullets just could have sold some barrel fowlers. And like I said, I'm sure my buddy has many of those loads left so come on over and I'll show you what it's like to scrape lead out of a barrel for an hour, cuz you're going to be able to experience that yourself so you know for sure.

I've said it several times before, if you want to do MB a favor, stop posting desperate attempts to defend this issue and I'll quit responding to them. That's called damage control, you see it in politics all the time, they just ignore the crimes they commit and people forget but you guys keep reminding them and in doing so dig yourselves deeper and deeper..

bds
April 3, 2011, 11:51 AM
Lead Head, I am drinking my morning coffee and went OMG at your 16 out of 25 dedicated posts (non-stop) on this thread.

The OP clearly stated this thread was about "MBC Quality" and what else did you expect? If I started a "W231/HP38 is Great!" or "Varget is Awesome!" threads, what would you expect the thread to be about?

THR and many other gun forums exist to share firearm/shooting/reloading related information and what makes any forum valuable is <drum roll please> the posting of personal experience of members! Ta-da! :D

It's kinda funny but you may actually be endorsing Missouri Bullets in an interesting way. Let's say someone who has not tried Missouri Bullets is reading this thread. The impression that could be made is a lot of posters were able to shoot Missouri Bullets with success but an isolated case of a relatively new poster with very low post number (25 total) is ranting and raving how Missouri Bullets leaded the barrel regardless of trying different things (I am curious exactly what things were tried. :rolleyes:).

I did post to share the "information" that if shooters have leading problem with softer .22LR commercial bullet, it's not the manufacturers' problem but the gun. Shooting a harder or different bullet would not be the answer (we've been shooting .22LR for quite a long time with no leading in our barrels) and most on THR would suggest that the cause of leading from .22LR lead bullet is probably other than the softness of the bullet.

blarby
April 3, 2011, 11:55 AM
Well, an oft used definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results....

Could apply to yammering, :evil:

Definitely applies to ammunition squishing.

If I got some leading in my shoot today, I would question the bullets- surely.

But I would know what questions to ask :

1. Were they the right size ? Well, gosh I hope so....I ordered 500 of them cut to a different size than their usual "standard" manufacture in an attempt to avoid leading in the first place. When I got them- I measured them...every single one... unless my calipers are broken, or my barrel mysteriously changed diameter over night- I know the answer to this question.

2. Seating depth correct ? Well, they chamber correctly, thats for sure. They don't smash into the rifling, and they are the same OAL as my pet loads in jacketed- so I'd say the bullet is in the starting block where I like it.

3. Primer : Same CCI LRP #200 as usual. Don't personally think that has the possibility of gumming my results up, but hey- stick with whats worked before....It gives me a baseline and one less variable to consider if something goes wong.

4. Powder : Ahh, here's where I expect to find some variance. Using a different powder than the pet load, and in a drastically different quantity. This would be the area in most need of adjustment to either heat the bullet up, or cool it down. I'm going off of someone elses' recipe, so I used the same gradient he did ( thanks for being the pioneer, Jech) in an efffort to duplicate his results. We have the same rifle, so hopefully thats meaningful but the rifles are similar, not identical- hence the range of loads. As a side note, the powder charge I'm using is rather small for this casing- there is a distinct possibility of double charging due to the volume of even a triple charge not exceeding the case dimensions....so after I measured and weighed 50 of them into the brass....I dumped em all one by one to remeasure....and you know what- I found a double ! No one is perfect, but I'm glad I checked. Twice.

5. Brass : Not a chance. Same .30-30 brass I always use, but in an effort to be extra careful to avoid variables under my control I used virgin brass :D cut to the same as I use in my pet loads.

6. BHN : Well, again, my tests on several of the bullets show in the 18 category .053 to .054 on my lee tester. I did not squish every one in this wicked device, for fear of warping them :rolleyes: however I tested ten- 5 from each box, and they were consistent. Unless brads' alloy mysteriously swirls at radically different densities between pocket to pocket as it settles in his molding machine, I think thats good enough proof for me. ( debatable- apparently its not good enough- as I'm lying through my teeth and this never occurred, or all of the ones I didn't check are BHN 9 due to brads witchery and alchemical terrorism in forming his magically shifty alloy :scrutiny: AND in using his equipment incorrectly- perhaps I'm both a liar AND doomed to failure before I even began)

7. Crimp. As a nifty note on crimping, it does take out the case expansion quite nicely that allows the bullets to be seated correctly without slicing them up. Handy. So yes, they are light crimped.

So, I'll know to question my charging totals ? Any other variables I'll be missing ? Just the bullets, right....ya....I know, But I don't have a lot of questions for those I haven't already answered.

I would question some step of my assembly or the powder charge first, as the bullets are unlikely to magically transform from " Excellent/acceptable quality" to "magically shifty/bore destroying rubbish" whilst already seated. But ya never know, brad and his witchery....:scrutiny:

And I will know this, because I did my homework BEFORE I ate my ice cream for dessert... Not ate my ice cream, got tired and fell asleep, and then told my teacher and class the dog ate it.

Mainly, because If I screwed up- I'll take the responsibility first, in knowledge that I possibly could have screwed up- not magically pointing the finger at anything other than myself as the culprit. I'll evaluate my process before I blame someone else for my screw up- not carpet bomb the blame anywhere else but my front porch. In that matter, yes I am quite different than your described political affiliation ( if calling me a democrat by my "lecture" means you are sitting on the other side of that fence)- still not a democrat though.

blarby
April 3, 2011, 12:07 PM
@ BDS There isn't much to wonder about, if you follow his explanation. Well, I stand corrected....there is a LOT to wonder about.

He had a formula for a " magic bullet" he found 30 years ago ( apparently the very same day he started reloading ) and has used ever since.

One day, out of the blue, he decides....hey, lets change the magic bullet after all this time by trying some MBC....goes home with a handful or boxful, changes just the bullet part of the equation and then loads somewhere between 50-100 of them up.( we still dont know the original magical bullet equation, or even the bullet type- or hell for that matter even the gun :scrutiny: as demonstrated)

He then goes to the range, and racks em all off.

He finds leading in his holiest of holiest- his virgin bore hole has been sullied.

Magically, MBC makes a horrible product. There could be no possible additional or correct answer- because his 30 years of magic bullet making expertise have made him into such a formidable press master that A) He never errs, EVER ( especially with the magic bullet equation, which he has just changed but apparently in his blind supremacy forgot to notice) and B) This experience makes him the arbiter of immediate and absolute failure of products he has used.

To me, it sounds an awful lot like an aging mall-ninja gloating over his awesome k-mart 12 gauge and its AUTHORITA !


P.S. :
Sorry Robert, I did not intend to confer that your product was a k-mart 12 ga used by a fat fictional paper cutout cartoon character. Although in reading it a few times, It comes out that way.

buck460XVR
April 3, 2011, 12:15 PM
I belong to several gun and reloading forums. Been a member here for over 4 years. Only lead bullets I load are those home cast by a friend. Never YET have ordered form either Penn or MB......but from the experience of the majority of those that have, I surely wouldn't hesitate to order from either or both. 99% of posts about either company on any forum I'm on is positive. Both owners are more than willing on many of these forums to explain their products and how to properly use them. The majority of problems I see others have when using them are generally from the user using the wrong hardness or the wrong size of bullet for their gun and the load they are using. Both companies give good tech support for those with problems. I'm sure there are instances where either companies bullets will just not work well in a certain gun or load. 'Ell, I have jacketed bullets from big name manufacturers that fall into that category. That doesn't mean I trash their whole line and their business. I consider it a learning experience and move on. If my experiences don't mirror others here with more experience, I also try to learn from them instead of calling them names and questioning their knowledge. Those who know me here, know all too well that I don't always agree with everyone on everything. But personal attacks and name calling are for third grade girls, not mature adults.

TexasRifleman
April 3, 2011, 12:27 PM
But personal attacks and name calling are for third grade girls, not mature adults.

buck460XVR gets the last word, this one is done.

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