Is J & G sales a distributor or retailer?


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TheGewehrGuy
April 1, 2011, 05:47 AM
I have always believed that J & G sales is a distributor, if you want something, the deals go down just like gunbroker, but I have never actually bought a gun online.

So my local preferred gun dealer told me today that they were a distributor and actually got grumpy with me and told me that the price for a VZ-2008 was $525, and that I was looking at dealer cost on J & G's website, which I find hard to believe.

I normally like that gun shop because the main guy running the show is really fair and actually gave me a couple of free surplus magazines for my AR. Got a guy I never meet today give me a more than rude welcome, not to mention I waited 20 minutes to get a quote that took 5 minutes.

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Davek1977
April 1, 2011, 06:50 AM
J&G sales is a retailer, but keep in mind that any guns purchased through them will go through an FFl, which typically means a transfer fee, shipping costs, and possibly state tax depending on how your dealer chooses to handle it. Thus, guns APPEAR considerably cheaper in the online stores, but oftentimes, the real-world cost is quite similar. While JG Sales is indeed a retailer, YOU won't be paying their "retail price" because the listed price doesn't include the "hidden costs" I mentioned. Just because a gun is $399.99 on www.JgSales.com doesn't mean that price is anywhere near the total price after transfers, shipping, and the like. One nice thing about Budsgunshop.com is that shipping on many guns is FREE, eliminating one additional charge.....

Gato MontÚs
April 1, 2011, 06:54 AM
You buy the gun online for the advertised price and have it sent to your chosen FFL dealer for transfer. There isn't a dealer price and a customer price, it's all the same. What the guy wants to do is purchase the gun and turn around and sell it to you for an inflated markup.

Don't shop there.

Davek1977
April 1, 2011, 06:58 AM
Nasser, keep in mind the "list' price shown on the website is BEFORE shipping and any applicable taxes. it is also common for FFLs to charge a fee (usually around 20 bucks, but can be as litte as nothing to as much as $50) to handle your order. Therefore, the 'inflated price" the ffl wants to sell the gun at may actually be close to the final sale price when all is said and done. Just becasue you see an VZ-2008 for "$350" (example...no clue as to the current price listed) doesn't mean that $350 will get that rifle out the door of the shop......its a base price before any additional fees are added in, fees that are oftentimes quite legitimate

Gato MontÚs
April 1, 2011, 07:13 AM
Understood, but this guy isn't talking transfer fees, he's talking buying the gun and turning around and charging the customer an inflated rate. The gun shop does not set the price for J&G's firearms. The customer pays upfront for the gun on J&G's website and, upon transfer, pays the FFL a fee for his services.

Again, unless there was some sort of mis-communication, don't shop there.

earlthegoat2
April 1, 2011, 07:22 AM
I have bought through J&G as a dealer and they will give an FFL discount sometimes. So if they have something that no one else has I could still buy it at a small discount and then turn around and sell it to the customer at J&Gs price plus a few bucks that could be interpreted as a transfer fee.

CDNN is the same way.

mnrivrat
April 1, 2011, 07:33 AM
And here, in this question, is the significant change that has taken place in marketing as a result of the internet.

Want to open up a retail gun shop ? Good luck !!!!

J&G used to be a distributor for all those who didn't live around Prescott. AZ. Due to the internet, and C&R license, they are now a nation wide retailer.

Midway and Brownells used to be distributors serving the retail gun/sporting goods stores. Now, all a person has to do is get a cheap C&R license and they ship to you at the distributor price.

The gun shows took in Beany Baby's and beef jerky to try to stay alive on the dwindling amount of small dealers that used to do the shows. Perhaps the small gun stores will have to include ice cream parlors or burgers and fries, to stay alive.

Times are a changing.

ultradoc
April 1, 2011, 07:38 AM
I don't believe I have dealt with them but I get their flyer and it looks like they have some neat things.

Davek1977
April 1, 2011, 07:39 AM
Understood, but this guy isn't talking transfer fees, he's talking buying the gun and turning around and charging the customer an inflated rate. You're operating on assumption here. We have no idea what the dealer was actually thinking, or what he meant. he could have just as easy meant that that, after all is said and done, transfers, taxes, and shipping included, thats what the final total cost would be to the consumer if he chose to utilize his shop. Some dealers charge high ffl fees for guns they can normally acquire pretty easily, because they want to encourage the customer to shop with them instead.....In the end, its best to prioce the same item many places, both onl;ine and locally, if possible, and see who can ultimately give you the best deal. Oftentimes, taxes, shipping, and transfer fees can vary the price of a given firearm significantly. "Don't shop there" is poor advice given the lack of information provided. Maybe its the ONLY FFL in the area.....maybe others charge higher transfer fees.....the list of varibales involved is endless, and a blanket "don't shop there" given a complete lack of background on the person's situation and location isn't necessarily good advice IMO.

Animal Mother
April 1, 2011, 07:50 AM
You buy the gun online for the advertised price and have it sent to your chosen FFL dealer for transfer. There isn't a dealer price and a customer price, it's all the same. What the guy wants to do is purchase the gun and turn around and sell it to you for an inflated markup.

Don't shop there.


This.

There will be additional fees, this is true, but what you need to find out from the FFL of your choice is what they charge to transfer the gun, and if the price is agreeable (and it should be $25 or less, much more than that is gouging), then ask them to fax a copy of their FFL to J&G Sales, after this is done, go home and order your gun through J&G and pay them for the gun and shipping (usually around $20 or less) and have them ship your rifle to your FFL of choice. Then wait until the rifle arrives at your dealer, then pay them the transfer fee, and then take possession of the rifle. The only thing the dealer gets is the transfer fee, and you'll have to pay extra to J&G for shipping (and sales tax if you live in AZ or a crappy state like NY). So you could be looking at $360+25+20= $405. I've done this lots of times and that's it and that's all.

Gato MontÚs
April 1, 2011, 07:53 AM
So my local preferred gun dealer told me today that they were a distributor and actually got grumpy with me and told me that the price for a VZ-2008 was $525, and that I was looking at dealer cost on J & G's website, which I find hard to believe.

To me that sounds a lot like...

Understood, but this guy isn't talking transfer fees, he's talking buying the gun and turning around and charging the customer an inflated rate.

Hey TheGewehrGuy, the only thing you need to pay to that gun shop is the agreed fee for transfer, which as Davek has said can be anywhere from ten bucks to a hundred. If he is asking YOU to pay HIM for the gun, don't shop there!

TheGewehrGuy
April 1, 2011, 07:59 AM
Yeah, I normally like going there for anything I need because they have treated ME right in the past. Actually, my Uncle recently bought a Zastava PAP for $404 from them, well actually they told him $404, then when he went to pick it up they charged him $424, plus tax.

Its funny too because my uncle used to be an FFL and still gets magazines sent to his house, so I get to gawk :what: at the ridiculous mark ups some dealers charge. $300 for a dealer to order a VZ-2008. And I even told this dealer that I was going to just order it through J & G, but hey its his lose, not only is he losing a $100 profit he could have made by being reasonable, he is losing the transfer fee too.

When I get my FFL license someday, I will sell guns for just a transfer fee above cost, just to piss these guys off. Not like I would need the money when that happens anyway lol.

Good riddens to that shaddy dealer.

Davek1977
April 1, 2011, 08:05 AM
I guess what I gathered reading it was that he WOULDN'T accept the gun for transfer, but would order it for the quoted price, which allows him to make his profit on the sale, which is entirely within his rights as a ffl. I may be wrong, but after reading it, I gathered that if the OP was going to get a VZ-2008 at that shop, that would be the price. Now, knowing that, its up to the OP to see if he can beat that price or not. You can argue whether its a good practice or not, but at the end of the day, we're not running his shop. If its truly a profitless business model, he will go under. if he knows how to play his margins, he may do well. It all comes down to a free market...he can run his shop how he sees fit under the law, and you can either utilize his services ...or not. if you can get the gun elsewhere and be happy with the experience, go for it.

TheGewehrGuy
April 1, 2011, 08:16 AM
I agree Davek1977,

I think its a really shady deal, especially since he lied straight to my face in saying that J & G is a distributor and that the $360 price was not for customers like me (Then why don't they have a log in...)

I am from now on staying far away from that shop, I had good experiences in the past, but this has ruined it for me. Nothing I hate more than price gouging and lying.

Sebastian the Ibis
April 1, 2011, 09:00 AM
I normally like that gun shop because the main guy running the show is really fair and actually gave me a couple of free surplus magazines for my AR. Got a guy I never meet today give me a more than rude welcome, not to mention I waited 20 minutes to get a quote that took 5 minutes.

Have you spoken to your buddy there as opposed to the "New Guy?" It's often hard to find good help these days, even with 10% unemployment.

hirundo82
April 1, 2011, 10:09 AM
Understood, but this guy isn't talking transfer fees, he's talking buying the gun and turning around and charging the customer an inflated rate.

You're operating on assumption here. We have no idea what the dealer was actually thinking, or what he meant. he could have just as easy meant that that, after all is said and done, transfers, taxes, and shipping included, thats what the final total cost would be to the consumer if he chose to utilize his shop.

If this FFL is saying that a gun that sells for $360 online (http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/vz2008-sporter-7-62x39-w-fixed-synthetic-stock-milled-receiver%2C-by-cai-backordered-/products_id/4624) would be $525 if purchased through his shop, he is either gouging you on FFL fees or on markup in-shop. Either way, I'd find another FFL.

cheygriz
April 2, 2011, 01:04 PM
A new trend is coming.

I know of several "dealers" who carry no inventory, but make their money from a $20 transfer fee. IMHO, this is the wave of the future. :p

Little or no overhead costs for the local FFL, and dealer cost + transfer fee for the buyer.

This is a win-win situation! :D

mgmorden
April 2, 2011, 02:01 PM
A new trend is coming.

I know of several "dealers" who carry no inventory, but make their money from a $20 transfer fee. IMHO, this is the wave of the future.

Little or no overhead costs for the local FFL, and dealer cost + transfer fee for the buyer.

This is a win-win situation!

This is what I've seen too. I have used 3 such guys in my local area recently, but I've seen more than that advertise. The guy I use only charges $15 (and I've seen him advertise "sales" on transfers for as little as $10).

Always shop around for everything - that includes the gun, the shipping, and the transfer. If J&G is too high, look at AIM. If UPS is too high look at Fedex. If one FFL charges too much look for another.

All that aside though, J&G will most certainly sell to you. They don't have "dealer pricing" that you can't get.

TheGewehrGuy
April 2, 2011, 02:03 PM
I don't see the point of a gun shop only carrying a few guns anyway, unless they have a used rack like Cabelas. And most of the time the people that walk into a shop are just lookie-loos, not ready to buy anything.

The only place where we don't order guns to buy them in my family, is Cabelas because of the used rack. Why pay MSRP for something, when you can get it used, which is perfectly fine.

dogtown tom
April 2, 2011, 08:50 PM
Be aware that if your dealer places the order for you.....he will most likely be required to charge you state sales tax.

Here in Texas, if I order a firearm from J&G (or any other seller) on behalf of a customer I am required to collect 8.25% Texas sales tax. As I don't work for free, I charge a $30 minimum to order the gun: Example $500 gun + $30 + sales tax= $575.05

If my customer orders & pays directly to J&G all my customer would pay me is the transfer fee. In this case his total expense would be $500 + a $20 transfer fee.

newfalguy101
April 3, 2011, 01:19 AM
The correct answer is BOTH, they are a distributor and also a retailor

chevyman097
April 3, 2011, 03:55 PM
Dogtown Tom
Be aware that if your dealer places the order for you.....he will most likely be required to charge you state sales tax.

Here in Texas, if I order a firearm from J&G (or any other seller) on behalf of a customer I am required to collect 8.25% Texas sales tax. As I don't work for free, I charge a $30 minimum to order the gun: Example $500 gun + $30 + sales tax= $575.05

If my customer orders & pays directly to J&G all my customer would pay me is the transfer fee. In this case his total expense would be $500 + a $20 transfer fee.


Who requires that? I have ordered many firearms through j &g and other vendors and never been charged sales tax.

If you require sales tax that is different from being required to charge sales tax. Just imo, it sounds misleading as if Texas requires you to charge this. I dont know of any requirement.

Anyways aside from that I understand you are tryint to run a business and make money.

As for the original post. I have to agree with most here, sounds shady. I have found that some dealers(IMO) seem to feel cheated or taken advantage of if you dont buy straight from them. Some even are very rude. Well its a big market and there is plenty of other guys down the road. I would shop around for a cheaper transfer fee.

I understand a business wants to make money. But I likely wont be back to buy other items(as I usually do if a dealer treats me good) if I feel like attitude is poor or im being gouged.

The dealer I have been using for years charges 10 bucks(I usually give them 25 just because they are so good to me). They have always been very nice and have made a lot of money off me from other firearms and things I have purchased from them directly. Some dealers around here charge as high as 50 bucks or more for a transfer. I dont see how you can help yourself in making money when there is one down the road charging 10.

newfalguy101
April 3, 2011, 05:34 PM
Who requires that? I have ordered many firearms through j &g and other vendors and never been charged sales tax.




The STATE requires that dealers collect sales tax, which is precisely what Tom posted.

If I, as a dealer, ORDER the gun for MY customer, then when I sell it to MY customer, I am required to collect sales tax on the sale.

chevyman097
April 3, 2011, 05:49 PM
Hrm, just trying to clear that up because I have never been charged sales tax on any firearms ordered by me or my dealer(I do always pay up front so maybe he is acting as if I ordered it). Maybe I should just lay low before I get dealer in trouble :o lol jk

Just was confused though, was wondering.

mgmorden
April 3, 2011, 07:53 PM
Hrm, just trying to clear that up because I have never been charged sales tax on any firearms ordered by me or my dealer(I do always pay up front so maybe he is acting as if I ordered it). Maybe I should just lay low before I get dealer in trouble lol jk

Just was confused though, was wondering.

In most (not all) states you're supposed to pay the tax at the end of the year on all your Internet purchases anyways. It's reported as a "Use Tax", typically on your income tax filing, and is to be paid on any items on which you did not pay sales tax.

Most states typically don't check on this too closely and very few people seem to report anything, but if going by the law you usually aren't getting out of sales tax by ordering online.

Still, you pay it locally anyways so it's certainly not being saved by buying locally, and most of my gun purchases are cheaper bought online even after shipping + transfer - usually by a significant margin. Just like almost everything else, I buy guns almost exclusively online now. The only things I buy locally anymore is food/groceries and small knicknacks that are too cheap to ship (ie, if I randomly need a turkey baster I'll just go to a local store, but any large items is usually online).

Heck for music and video games I'm getting them through iTunes and Steam, respectively, and they are completely digitally delivered - no shipping cost because there's no physical item. Internet shopping rocks :).

Guns and more
April 3, 2011, 08:31 PM
If you're ever in Prescott, AZ, you can visit the store.
I suspect they do a larger internet sale, though.

dogtown tom
April 4, 2011, 12:59 AM
Dogtown Tom

Quote:
Be aware that if your dealer places the order for you.....he will most likely be required to charge you state sales tax.

Here in Texas, if I order a firearm from J&G (or any other seller) on behalf of a customer I am required to collect 8.25% Texas sales tax. As I don't work for free, I charge a $30 minimum to order the gun: Example $500 gun + $30 + sales tax= $575.05

If my customer orders & pays directly to J&G all my customer would pay me is the transfer fee. In this case his total expense would be $500 + a $20 transfer fee.

chevyman097: Who requires that? I have ordered many firearms through j &g and other vendors and never been charged sales tax.
Who? The state of Texas. Again, if YOU order directly from J&G and YOU pay them directly you would not pay Texas sales tax. If your dealer does anything other than the transfer he is required under Texas law to charge you Texas sales tax. The amount varies depending on where in Texas you reside.

If you require sales tax that is different from being required to charge sales tax. Just imo, it sounds misleading as if Texas requires you to charge this. I dont know of any requirement.
It's not misleading, it's plainly stated on the state comptrollers website. Your dealer had better be fully aware of what is or is not taxable in the state of Texas.

Anyways aside from that I understand you are tryint to run a business and make money.
Sorry, I don't "make money" from sales tax. I have to remit the tax collected to the state each quarter.

Everything you ever want to know about Texas sales & use taxes:
http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/sales/

Bluehawk
April 4, 2011, 01:29 AM
In most (not all) states you're supposed to pay the tax at the end of the year on all your Internet purchases anyways. It's reported as a "Use Tax", typically on your income tax filing, and is to be paid on any items on which you did not pay sales tax.


Kindly list those states for us as I'm sure we are all interested.

johnthomas
April 4, 2011, 01:31 AM
I have been dealing with JG sales for years. I think they are retail. They are in AZ.
I have always been treated well by them. They have a store front, from the guys that have been, they say it is a small shop with very helpful workers. I have a c&r license so if they have something in c&r long guns, I just order it. I'm in California so if I want c&r handguns, I either have it shipped to a ffl or I could drive there, pick them up and register them in California no more than 10 days of getting back. The fee for that is 19 bucks.

chevyman097
April 4, 2011, 01:39 AM
You dont have to apologize for anything dogtown. I am simply having a conversation and trying to understand the circumstances. I have never been charged sales tax is all, this is why it seemed odd to me when I read it.

blindhari
April 4, 2011, 01:54 AM
I live 20 minutes from J&G. Have purchased firearms from them, mostly milsurp and ammunition. All goods as advertised and fairly priced. They generally have at least four counter employees, I have seen as many as eight on weekends, and if they can't give a definitive answer on a firearm they always get the answer from another counter man who is knowledgeable about specifics. Worth the trip from a lot further away. When buying milsurp they have always presented three run of the box samples and given me my choice. If I ask to look at more than three, thier policy is to add $10 for custom pick. I looked at 9 once and found one I liked, when I pulled out cash they just charged me advertised price. When I asked why no extra $10 the guy told me I was a repeat customer and I was paying CASH.
If I am intrested in milsurp I go to J$G. 11 store front gun retailers within 1/2 hour of where I live and Davidsons Wholesale is also within that 1/2 hr circle.

I think I retired and went to heaven,

blindhari

johnthomas
April 4, 2011, 06:52 AM
How in the world do you get anything done with that many gun shops around you? lol
My mouth would be dry because of all the drooling on guns I would do. I live in California, there is one shop here in salinas, mostly hunter's supply. 24 miles away is another, in Watsonville. Because of the lack of competition, were at these guy's mercy when it comes to price and choice. What is sad, the best gun store around these parts is a big5 and their nothing to be happy about.

blindhari
April 4, 2011, 12:04 PM
Hello Johnthomas,
I had an early retirement chance for both my wife and myself come up a few years back and jumped on it. We left California, Solano county, and ran away from from home. The fact that I was getting older and slower prompted me to take a look at Az. We live 5000' in the air on high desert plateau about an hour away from Sedona. I do photography and write a little. PM me an address and I will send along a picture or two. Legal hunts here, Bighorn/Dahl sheep, buffallo,elk, white tail, javalina, turkey, grouse, quail, bear, jack rabbit, and all the coyotes you can call in. Only thing I hunt anymore are tincans, and the occasional coyote.

blindhari

Sgt.Murtaugh
April 4, 2011, 12:20 PM
Dealers usually don't like these online gun-stores because they undercut their prices and threaten their business. Think Bud's Gun Shop. They have such low prices because they are drop-shipping straight from a distributor and many times they don't even touch a gun that you buy from them. Dealers do not like this (according to my local FFL). He says he uses GunsAmerica and GunsInternational to sell his guns online and in fact prefers to sell on those sites because he gets a fair retail price for his gun and gets the online presence.

If you want to buy online, use GunsAmerica, GunBroker, or GunsInternational because those are the sites our Local Gun Dealers use to help them sell and stay in business. Let the distributor serve their function of supplying the dealers and let the dealers serve their function of supplying the end-user.

just my $.02

yeti
April 4, 2011, 01:41 PM
Kindly list those states for us as I'm sure we are all interested.


Alabama Yes
Alaska No
Arizona Yes
Arkansas Yes
California Yes
Connecticut Yes
Colorado Yes
Delaware No
Florida Yes
Georgia Yes
Hawaii Yes
Idaho Yes
Illinios Yes
Indiana Yes
Iowa Yes
Kansas Yes
Kentucky Yes
Louisiana Yes
Maine Yes
Maryland Yes
Massachusetts Yes
Michigan Yes
Minnesota Yes
Mississippi Yes
Missouri Yes
Montana No
Nebraska Yes
Nevada Yes
New Hampshire No
New Jersey Yes
New Mexico Yes
New York Yes
North Carolina Yes
North Dakota Yes
Ohio Yes
Oklahoma Yes
Oregon No
Pennsylvania Yes
Rhode Island Yes
South Carolina Yes
South Dakota Yes
Tennessee Yes
Texas Yes
Utah Yes
Vermont Yes
Virginia Yes
Washington Yes
West Virginia Yes
Wisconsin Yes
Wyoming Yes
DC Yes


http://www.ecommerce-blog.org/archives/the-myth-of-tax-free-internet-sales/

OK?

mgmorden
April 4, 2011, 04:25 PM
Dealers usually don't like these online gun-stores because they undercut their prices and threaten their business. Think Bud's Gun Shop. They have such low prices because they are drop-shipping straight from a distributor and many times they don't even touch a gun that you buy from them. Dealers do not like this (according to my local FFL). He says he uses GunsAmerica and GunsInternational to sell his guns online and in fact prefers to sell on those sites because he gets a fair retail price for his gun and gets the online presence.

If you want to buy online, use GunsAmerica, GunBroker, or GunsInternational because those are the sites our Local Gun Dealers use to help them sell and stay in business. Let the distributor serve their function of supplying the dealers and let the dealers serve their function of supplying the end-user.

just my $.02

Summarized version of your post: "You should voluntarily pay more than you have to in order to prop up certain businesses instead of supporting people who are better managing their businesses."

Yes, Buds does a lot of drop shipping. Once upon a time those arrangements didn't exist. They saw an opportunity, negotiated those agreements, and as a result can offer lower prices. HOW a business manages to gain a competitive edge isn't important. That's for the businesses themselves to worry about. As a customer, I only care about the end result.

If Buds can give me the same item for a lower price then I'm happy to support them. It's up to the other shops to beat that price (the how is up to them) in order to earn back my business. Alternatively, they can offer a value added service as well. Free 6 months of range time with a purchase? That might be worth something. Perhaps free accessory installation on guns you sell. Overall though, being able to "handle" the gun or "bring it back if there's an issue" usually isn't worth a whole lot to me, as the (vast) majority of guns I buy online have no issues whatsoever. Will I get a lemon eventually? Probably. But unless I get lemons at a rate such that the cost of fixing the situation exceeds the savings I gain by shopping online, then it's still economically wise to shop online. If you think about it as a risk analysis (which is exactly how insurance companies make money), then you can make a more financially sound decision.

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