Why do gun dealers like to jack up the prices?


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TheGewehrGuy
April 1, 2011, 08:12 AM
I find it ridiculous that you can actually order a gun from an online website like J & G that makes a profit off it, pay shipping, pay tax (WA state :barf:), and pay the transfer fee, and still pay significantly less than what they quote you on.

As an example:
Dealer told me $525 for Vz-2008

$360 at J & G,
$16 shipping
$28.80 tax :barf:
$30 transfer fee

And yet it all comes out to about $434, almost $100 below what I have been quoted.

Anyone who does their homework would surely not fall for paying over what the gun is worth. The way I see it, I have hardly any money, and if I am going to buy a gun, I am not going to instantly lose $100 on it in value, simply because I paid far from what its worth.

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lizziedog1
April 1, 2011, 08:18 AM
I find it ridiculous that you can actually order a gun from an online website like J & G that makes a profit off it,

Yes, how unamerican can you get! Someone should let our current administration know about this. Maybe a government gun subsidy program should be lobbied for.:confused:

Davek1977
April 1, 2011, 08:22 AM
Because, above transfer fees, many dealers need make a 10-15% profit margin to remain in business. A dealer whose only profit on a deal is a transfer fee isn't making much money. The reason gun dealers "jack up" prices is the same reason wholesale prices are ALWAYS lower than retail. At the retail level, items are sold at low volume for maximum profit. The same reason the dealer marks a "$300" dollar gun at $400 is the same reason your local grocery store buys candy bars for $0.50 a piece and sells them for $1.25. Even if i "KNOW" the candy bars are only "worth" .50 cents.....Unless I'm buying in bulk just like the store....theres no way I'm going to see that price when the store has to make their profit as well. Comparatively, even at the "inflated" prices you seem to believe guns are sold at...the profit margins on firearms are much lower than they are with many other goods.

Canazes9
April 1, 2011, 08:32 AM
I can't help wonder if you are going into your local gunshop and handling the firearms in question. Most people don't want to buy an item like a gun without handling it first. It costs money to maintain a store front and to pay salaries for employees - much more expensive than maintaining a warehouse and a website.

Also, if I have a problem w/ a firearm I purchase I can walk right back to my local gunshop, discuss the problem with them and they make it right - that service costs money.

David

Lex Luthier
April 1, 2011, 08:45 AM
I don't know about you, but I make friends at my favorite gun spots. Then you get nice surprises, like great service, free pizza, and even a little discount on bulk purchases, because they know you keep coming back. My last two acquisitions from my local supplier were within $50.00 of a quick online search. That little bit of profit for them keeps food on their table.

Preferring an anonymous, bottom line transaction for anything is fine on rare (tight) occasions, but if I prefer to have a relationship with the moms and pops who are doing right by their customers. Money isn't supposed to steer the wheel every time.

Good luck.

stonecutter2
April 1, 2011, 08:51 AM
In the example you showed above, yeah maybe you should save $100 and get it online. I'd also recommend that when picking up the firearm, buy some ammo. You wouldn't have the option of buying online and getting it transferred to a store near you if that store doesn't stay in business. Transfer fees are a little extra dough, but support the shop that let you have a convenient option of buying online and picking up locally.

It's important to support your local businesses, in my opinion.

Mt Shooter
April 1, 2011, 09:54 AM
Davek, good explanation, however answer me this one. I was in a shop looking at pistols there where two exactly the same, I don't recall what they where, I mean exactly caliber, grips everything. the only difference was the serial numbers...oh and 100 dollars. When I asked about it, they brought them out looked and looked, called over the manager. He looked, only excuse given, must have bought them from two different sources, and put them back into the case.

kingpin008
April 1, 2011, 09:54 AM
As mentioned, they "jack up" the prices because they have to.

An online retailer has many advantages and less overhead than a brick and mortar store does. This allows them to offer a lower price to their customers, since they have less overhead to pay for.

Ian
April 1, 2011, 09:59 AM
FWIW, J&G does have a retail shop here in Arizona. I expect their price advantage comes from volume, not from a lack of overhead.

tinygnat219
April 1, 2011, 10:03 AM
I find it ridiculous that you can actually order a gun from an online website like J & G that makes a profit off it, pay shipping, pay tax (WA state ), and pay the transfer fee, and still pay significantly less than what they quote you on.

As an example:
Dealer told me $525 for Vz-2008

$360 at J & G,
$16 shipping
$28.80 tax
$30 transfer fee

And yet it all comes out to about $434, almost $100 below what I have been quoted.

Anyone who does their homework would surely not fall for paying over what the gun is worth. The way I see it, I have hardly any money, and if I am going to buy a gun, I am not going to instantly lose $100 on it in value, simply because I paid far from what its worth.

That's because J&G Sales is part distributor / part retail store. That price you see is typically what dealers will pay for that firearm. Several LGS in my area won't allow transfers from places like J&G, SOG, or AimSurplus primarily because they are showing dealer prices. You want the gun, you have to order it from them and yes, there is a markup because like all good businesses, LGS have to show a profit. There's the rent to pay, employees to pay, and a margin that ensures food gets on the table. I also know some LGS that charge 25 dollars for a transfer for something like a Gunbroker.com auction, and then 125 dollars for a transfer from Buds Gun Shop because all Buds does for something like 90% of their sales is drop ship it from a distributor to the receiving FFL. They don't even SEE the gun. So they price it at 30 bucks above dealer cost and they kill the local gun store who oftentimes cannot compete with that.

Specs
April 1, 2011, 10:16 AM
In a free market (so called) society the sale price is actually determined by the buyer. If I can't get X dollars for something I will sell it for X-? when I need the money. As buyers we have the great freedom of going elsewhere. One of my favorite LGS recently called me regarding a scarce new item I had asked about (LC9), but his price was $440 (true) more than I was looking to spend. I knew that eventually the price will settle at around $340.00 or so. He was looking to get MSRP, a level I will not buy at. So, I defer my purchase until I find it at my price or I do without. The spirit of competition is your friend. I will always shop my favorite stores within 80 miles or so, and buy at the lowest price I can find, never will buy online.

This same store once sold me a new 9mm pistol, and when I got it home I discovered that the decocker lever was gouging the frame. I drove back and received a refund and bought another pistol for more $, not so easy with an online dealer.This is a prime example of the customer service you are paying for at a real store.

Safetychain
April 1, 2011, 10:41 AM
I would expect the local brick and mortar to be more expensive, to pay for their extra overhead, and it is capitalism; charge what the market will bear and all of that. I'm all for al businesses trying to make as much profit as possible. Everybody wants to make the big bucks. I would too.

BUT: There seems to be some crazy business model some places adhere to that "If I can't make a profit by charging $$" then charge $$$ which causes volume to fall and less profit. So then they charge $$$$ and then go out of business claiming that Walmart put them out of business instead of at least trying to lure more customers with a lower profit margin and be a 2 car family instead of a 4 car one. That apparently is how the shop out of county is looking at it (see below).

Then there's my local shop who's practice on new guns is to list on the sale's tag 'dealers cost', 'MSRP', and 'Your cost'. One county away and dealing with the same gun, different SN, the 'your cost' is less than the others 'dealers cost'. And we are not talking 5% type numbers but closer to 30% difference. To me that is lying to the customer and that isn't the type store that I want to make shooting friends in or trust them in even working on a gun for me.

mljdeckard
April 1, 2011, 10:53 AM
Any commodity on this planet is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it. Every salesman in the world wants to charge as much as he thinks people will pay. If he is charging too much, he will either not sell it, or change his mind and sell it for less. OR, MAYBE he knows something you don't.

Things I might guess, that he has sold his last several for that price, and so there is no reason to believe that he won't do it again. See, even with smaller price differences, it is a calculated risk. Let's say I want to buy an item for $120 in my hometown sporting goods store, but I know that the warehouse store in the next county has the same item for $100. Now before I jump for joy, I need to ask myself; "Is it worth the drive and the time?" It's an hour away. And an hour back. Plus gas. I probably won't want to JUST go there to get the item, plan on some other items and lunch too. Oh, the kids will want to go. NOW how much does it cost? My time is certainly worth more than the $20 I would save for two hours of driving. This is why my hometown store is still in business.

I'm going to guess that the store you are looking in has people come in every day complaining about internet deals they have had go bad. Wrong item. Bad service. Wasn't what I thought it would be when I actually handled it in real life. BATFE hassled the dealer about the transfer. Fraud. Any of a dozen reasons that they will do anything they can to not have to use the internet for a gun purchase ever again. To THESE people, $90 seems like a reasonable price to pay for dealing face to face. (And in my experience, the difference isn't usually that much.)

Davek1977
April 1, 2011, 10:53 AM
"Davek, good explanation, however answer me this one. I was in a shop looking at pistols there where two exactly the same, I don't recall what they where, I mean exactly caliber, grips everything. the only difference was the serial numbers...oh and 100 dollars. When I asked about it, they brought them out looked and looked, called over the manager. He looked, only excuse given, must have bought them from two different sources, and put them back into the case."

:uhoh: Ummmmm....I was simply lying out the basic premise, not attempting to describe every idiosyncrasy you may see in any random gun shop..... :banghead:
__________________

teumessian_fox
April 1, 2011, 10:58 AM
It's all about volume. J&G will pay less for their inventory because they buy more. They buy more than the local stores because they will sell 10 guns to the local stores 1.

Even though both stores have fixed and variable costs, J&G will charge less per gun because they sell more of them.

Ever wonder how Walmart can sell so cheaply as to literally drive the mom and pop stores out? It's because they buy inventory by the trainload and get huge volume discounts. Then they can charge less. It's all about volume.

cskny
April 1, 2011, 11:29 AM
Ever wonder how Walmart can sell so cheaply as to literally drive the mom and pop stores out? It's because they buy inventory by the trainload and get huge volume discounts. Then they can charge less. It's all about volume.


That's part of it. The other part is, consumers are price driven and don't care. If we all wanted walmart to fail, all we would have to do is not shop there (no matter what price they set). But, we do anyway...

Local dealers set the price at a level that they think they can be profitable at. I think it's odd that so many people jump to the local gun shop's defense (as if there's some inherent "goodness") when it's clear that some are pricing fairly ridiculously. There are about 3 shops by me, one is priced fairly, the other 2 are crazy. I won't support the other 2. That's how I get to "voice" my opinion.

The point is, there is a level at which consumers will not buy from a local shop anymore. Just like there's a price level where you'll stop buying lumber at the local lumber yard and start going to home depot. Or, you'll stop buying candy at the corner shop and start buying it at Walmart. Stop buying meat at the local butcher and start buying it at the huge national grocery chains (or, again, at Walmart). We are a price driven consumer society.

The local gun shops are no different. If they price high and can still sell enough to stay in business, good for them I guess. But....they leave themselves vulnerable.

Oddly, something I learned about the MOST EXPENSIVE gun shop here locally, they are selling the same guns in ONLINE AUCTIONS (under a "non-obvious" name) at those lower prices to ramp up volume!?! So...if you win their auction, they will take the $350. If you go into the shop, they won't take a dime less then retail (or over). I suppose it's your choice.

RimfireChris
April 1, 2011, 11:33 AM
I don't seem to notice a huge price difference either. In fact the one LGS I frequent is a small but nice place, friendly people, willing to put up with window shopping and question asking, and is usually a little better than the MSRP listed at Davidsons. 'Course this is probably while they're still in business through these tough times. I bought a pistol from Cabelas in Jan, pretty much only because I had a gift card for there. I'd rather deal with my local guys who see me as more than a number.

22-rimfire
April 1, 2011, 12:03 PM
TheGewehrGuy: I think you should do what makes the most sense for you and not complain about it. It sounds to me like the LGS's price is a little high. At a $100 spread, I might go with the J&G price if I were in the market for the gun. If you have a relationship with the LGS, then I would ask them if they could do better on pricing. If not, I would find a dealer who will do the transfer and discuss the future transaction. If the LGS drops their price to make the sale, you have to actually buy the gun immediately, not put it in layaway or think about it for another couple of weeks.

How are the LGS's prices on things in general?

Retail is retail. People charge prices that they feel they can make a profit to stay in business. Pricing also reflects the clientel of the gunshop. Most people do not drive 100 miles to visit a gunshop on a regular basis. If everyone only purchased online, you would end up with "dealers" who essentially have three or four guns in stock and order everything. There would be no "handling" beforehand. You would look at a picture and order your gun. In general, you are paying for service. You want service or not? If not, buy your gun from J&G or whomever and when you have a problem, don't talk to your LGS.

ET
April 1, 2011, 12:15 PM
They "jack up" prices (commonly called profit) because the government is taking a significant amount of the profits, they have high overhead, their insurance costs more than a donut shop & they have to stand behind the gun when you bring it back because you don't understand how to put it back together & you screwed it up. I'm sure I missed a few things but you get the picture.

The younger generation only knows a world where the internet is an integral part of the market place. They know that they can get it cheaper on the internet because the "shop" has no bricks & morter, no sales people, heck they don't even have to charge out of sate taxes. They don't have to carry insurance on all of that, pay for health care, business permit. The list goes on & on. Don't confuse the two. The local shop has all of those expenses. The internet shop doesn't in a lot of cases. Plus they know that you won't be walking back in tomorrow demanding your money back because they were "sold the wrong gun for them". Or demand you fix what they just broke & then get mad because they can't get a free mag for "their trouble".


There is a simple fix for this. The government can do it better & cheaper. They always do. I propose we let the feds take over the gun shops. They can buy in the biggest bulk there is. Every gun sent to or made in America would be bought by the feds. Now since they are saving sooo much money then they would certainly pass that on to us, wouldn't they? They wouldn't collect the records and keep track of every gun we bought would they? They certainly wouldn't use this information later to take them away, would they? Why of course not. Let's let the government stop these charlatans from stealing our hard earned money and calling it profit.

"We work for the government, we are here to help!" ...RUN!!!!

Mecanik
April 1, 2011, 12:16 PM
The gun dealers are not the enemy guys. They serve a purpose. They are sometimes gunsmiths that can repair you firearm when it breaks. If the gunsmiths you rely on so dearly couldn't sell a gun or two and make a profit once in a while he would have to charge you a lot more to do the work you wanted. Guns are cheap anyway. Think about what your getting for your money and compare that to the other crap you buy that depreciates in value the instant it leaves the store till it's worth nothing. I wouldn't begrudge a gunsmith a 100 dollar profit on a 500 dollar rifle if I knew I could go back to him and ask questions or get a part replaced if needed. These guys work like dogs as it is to eek out a living doing something they really love to do. Give the dealers a break here.

cskny
April 1, 2011, 12:29 PM
The gun dealers are not the enemy guys. They serve a purpose. They are sometimes gunsmiths that can repair you firearm when it breaks. If the gunsmiths you rely on so dearly couldn't sell a gun or two and make a profit once in a while he would have to charge you a lot more to do the work you wanted. Guns are cheap anyway. Think about what your getting for your money and compare that to the other crap you buy that depreciates in value the instant it leaves the store till it's worth nothing. I wouldn't begrudge a gunsmith a 100 dollar profit on a 500 dollar rifle if I knew I could go back to him and ask questions or get a part replaced if needed. These guys work like dogs as it is to eek out a living doing something they really love to do. Give the dealers a break here.



But the OP is seemingly pointing out over a $170 profit on a $360 gun, no?

22-rimfire
April 1, 2011, 12:30 PM
You could take this argument further and include used firearms. All of a sudden, you expect the local gunshop to match the price that Joe down the street is willing to sell their gun for because they need the cash NOW. Things are not always only about price. You have to look at the whole picture regardless of your personal financial condition.

Kinnison342
April 1, 2011, 12:32 PM
I've found at my LGS, that they are within $50 of some of the brands, while others <coughSmith&Wessoncough> they are over $150 higher. I intend to purchase a Springfield XDm .45 and a CZ 452 Ultra Lux through them this summer because of this. Just an observation I thought interesting.

bartman06
April 1, 2011, 12:37 PM
I don't want to be disrespectful or seem like a smarty pants but I think it is called making a profit.

When you compare local markets with someone who competes with another company that distributes on a national market the larger distributor will usually have lower prices.

IE Walmart vs anyone.

There is also the difference between companies who have to take the give price and companies who have the power to demand goods at a lower price.

IE Walmart and their suppliers

Hanzo581
April 1, 2011, 12:40 PM
If a local gun shop can come within $50 of what I can get a gun for online I will buy from them, if they can't, I won't. I am absolutely price driven as I do all the research I need to do online and walk in the door to buy, not talk to the salesman about what he wants to sell me.

The best thing small guns shops can do is embrace online retailers, several near me have become "preferred dealers" with Buds for instance. They know more than likely when I come to get my transfer I am going to buy other stuff while I am there.

yeti
April 1, 2011, 12:59 PM
Why do gun dealers like to jack up the prices?

Why do I like getting paid $25 an hour instead of $12.50?

Remo223
April 1, 2011, 12:59 PM
Because, above transfer fees, many dealers need make a 10-15% profit margin to remain in business. A dealer whose only profit on a deal is a transfer fee isn't making much money. The reason gun dealers "jack up" prices is the same reason wholesale prices are ALWAYS lower than retail. At the retail level, items are sold at low volume for maximum profit. The same reason the dealer marks a "$300" dollar gun at $400 is the same reason your local grocery store buys candy bars for $0.50 a piece and sells them for $1.25. Even if i "KNOW" the candy bars are only "worth" .50 cents.....Unless I'm buying in bulk just like the store....theres no way I'm going to see that price when the store has to make their profit as well. Comparatively, even at the "inflated" prices you seem to believe guns are sold at...the profit margins on firearms are much lower than they are with many other goods.
Oversimplified

Gun dealers buy guns at lower prices than you can buy them on the internet

I bet they need more than a 15% markup!

Usually its a tie between buying in a gunshop and buying on the internet once shipping and transfer fees are added. Normally the only thing you save is sales tax. But the internet is a really big place and if you look hard enough you can find some unusual deals that won't be available in a gun shop.

The advantage to a gun shop though, is service. If you have a problem with a new gun, you don't have to do anything. You just tell your gunshop and they take over from there and make everything good.

I can buy motorcycle parts on the internet for my harley much cheaper than from a mom&pop parts store near by. But I prefer to do business with the mom&pop shop because I know they are working for me to make me happy. I don't have to take any risks on unknown companies on the internet. They take that risk for me. They also know from experience what kind of hassles I will have with what kind parts and what kind of compatibility issues could come up.

Basically, it's worth it to use the mom&pop shop.

mom&pop gun shops are the same way imo. I use a gunshop where the entire family(3 generations worth) live above the shop. I really don't care if they cost a little more. They are worth it. Older guns no longer made and hard to find are a different story though. I buy those over the internet

mgmorden
April 1, 2011, 01:09 PM
It's simply capitalism at work. They are free to charge what prices they like. You are free to look elsewhere. I personally have found that usually "looking elsewhere" (ie, online) is the way to the cheapest price. Those that adapt can stay in business. Those that don't, will go out of business.

The reality is the competition drives prices lower. I think that's where a lot of people make the mistake in understanding capitalism. Nobody is "owed" profit in a market economy. As a matter of fact that idea that everyone along the line is owed their "fair share" is the direct antithesis to capitalism (communism). In capitalism you must EARN your profits through beating your competition. That can be in quality, price, service, etc, but realistically, the market has shown time and again that price typically towers above all the rest. If you can't beat your competition, for whatever reason, you need to shift to another market segment.

With that in mind, I don't really MIND that my local shops have what I consider to be ridiculous prices, but I also am not going to pay them. If they want my business, they're free to work for it.

If they get their prices to within $25-30 of what I can get it for online + shipping + transfer, then I'll consider it. Otherwise, "handling" the gun in person just isn't worth that much to me.

Lou McGopher
April 1, 2011, 01:12 PM
I went to a store/range last night that I had never visited before, to rent a lane. When checking-out afterward, I asked about FFL transfer fees. They said $40 for something they don't have and can't readily get through their primary sources, $100 for something they have or can get. Okay, that's fine. I can understand not wanting to simply help out the competition.
I asked if they sold online, or listed inventory & prices on line. Nope, they don't do that.
It's odd to me that so many stores don't do this by now. Even if you're not going to sell online, at least let people know what you have or can readily get. I don't have time to call every store and ask about stock and prices on the multitude of things I'm looking for, in the various configurations these things come in. And I doubt the store can afford to have someone spend that much time on the phone. Put it online, let people know what you have. Sure, maybe you can't price things as low, but I do recognize there are benefits to being able to drive out to a store right away and deal with someone face-to-face, and that may justify the additional cost to me. But if I can't readily see what you have, I'm a lot more inclined to buy from someone who does make their inventory available, and I will find an FFL to do the transfer for less than you will. I'm going to get the gun I want either way.
As more people buy more guns and such online, I expect that those stores who can't compete on prices will have to shift the focus of their business away from gun and ammo sales, and toward gun rentals, range rental, training, and gun smithing. And if this is what serves consumers best, good. No sense crying for the buggy whip makers.

mgmorden
April 1, 2011, 01:12 PM
Why do I like getting paid $25 an hour instead of $12.50?

If that's the case lets just make it $50/hour! Reality doesn't work that way. Your time is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If an employer is only willing to pay you $12.50 an hour for your time then you can LIKE getting paid $25/hour all day long and it isn't going to change the market value of your time.

I think too many gun dealers are trying to price on what profit they WANT to make on a sale versus what they CAN make on a sale.

medalguy
April 1, 2011, 01:19 PM
To add another point of view, consider this. We are all (I assume) fairly sophisticated in the ins and outs of buying guns on the internet, shopping safely and all that. Consider that there are lots of people out there who don't even own a computer, and that there are lots of people who even today don't "want their credit card information floating around out there" and would not even consider buying anything online, then add in all those who would NEVER buy anything they couldn't hold in their hands first, and you have just one more reason why brick and mortar stores can charge more than an on-line dealer. Now add in the convenience of examining that firearm before you make the purchase, and the after-sale service a local shop can provide, and you arrive at the bottom line.

It's called VALUE. You really can't look at just the price paid and arrive at a figure for value received. That, I propose, constitutes a good reason for local dealers to charge more.

22-rimfire
April 1, 2011, 01:25 PM
The "more" is the issue. One poster said if it is more than $25 above the online price, they go with online. Others say... $50. $100? $100 seems a little high to me with all things being equal. They usually aren't however. Me, I do support my LGS when I can and I do pay more at times. I don't worrry about it. If a few boxes of ammo cover the spread, it is no big deal one way or the other to me; just shoot it half as much for a while. At one time, I would have jumped at the chance to save myself sales tax, but I have come to the conclusion that sales taxes are necessary for the government to provide their functions. I like less government, but people sure kick when it snows and their street never gets plowed.

ET
April 1, 2011, 01:40 PM
If that's the case lets just make it $50/hour! Reality doesn't work that way. Your time is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If an employer is only willing to pay you $12.50 an hour for your time then you can LIKE getting paid $25/hour all day long and it isn't going to change the market value of your time.

I think too many gun dealers are trying to price on what profit they WANT to make on a sale versus what they CAN make on a sale.

There in lies the problem for brick & mortar shops. The profit they "can" make doesn't necessarily pay all their expenses. They go bankrupt. Employees lose their jobs. The landlord loses a tennant. The city loses taxes. Your garbage doesn't get picked up next week and you call up & complain about the lousy service you are getting from the city. All the while your neighbor, (you know the one who worked at the gun store?) goes on unemployment & quits using the product that you sell. Then next month you can't quite understand why your sales declined last month.:uhoh: Whoa! what happened?

Remo223
April 1, 2011, 01:43 PM
The "more" is the issue. One poster said if it is more than $25 above the online price, they go with online. Others say... $50. $100? $100 seems a little high to me with all things being equal. They usually aren't however. Me, I do support my LGS when I can and I do pay more at times. I don't worrry about it. If a few boxes of ammo cover the spread, it is no big deal one way or the other to me; just shoot it half as much for a while. At one time, I would have jumped at the chance to save myself sales tax, but I have come to the conclusion that sales taxes are necessary for the government to provide their functions. I like less government, but people sure kick when it snows and their street never gets plowed.
I'm glad there are people like you that want to pay sales tax. That way when I don't pay sales tax the roads still get serviced. :)

Nushif
April 1, 2011, 01:49 PM
Preferring an anonymous, bottom line transaction for anything is fine on rare (tight) occasions, but if I prefer to have a relationship with the moms and pops who are doing right by their customers. Money isn't supposed to steer the wheel every time.

This.

I buy exclusively local because I like going in, drooling, being greeted and getting to see some of the cool new toys coming in first. That is a service and it costs money.
There is a lot of hidden benefits to spending money in the same place repeatedly. It bought me a perfect anniversary gift, let me play with silencers, has gotten me free repairs from our (awesome) local 'smith, has gotten me invited to shoots and all kinds of things.

Lou McGopher
April 1, 2011, 01:50 PM
I prefer to have a relationship with the moms and pops who are doing right by their customers. Money isn't supposed to steer the wheel every time. Online sellers have to do right by their customers, too, if they want to stay in business.

At one time, I would have jumped at the chance to save myself sales tax, but I have come to the conclusion that sales taxes are necessary for the government to provide their functions. I like less government, but people sure kick when it snows and their street never gets plowed.This is way beyond the scope of this topic. :)

Lou McGopher
April 1, 2011, 01:52 PM
Then next month you can't quite understand why your sales declined last month.:uhoh: Whoa! what happened?Then the following month everyone finds a job that provides a service that consumers actually want, and everything goes back to normal. C'est la vie capitalisme.

mgmorden
April 1, 2011, 02:11 PM
There in lies the problem for brick & mortar shops. The profit they "can" make doesn't necessarily pay all their expenses. They go bankrupt. Employees lose their jobs. The landlord loses a tennant. The city loses taxes. Your garbage doesn't get picked up next week and you call up & complain about the lousy service you are getting from the city. All the while your neighbor, (you know the one who worked at the gun store?) goes on unemployment & quits using the product that you sell. Then next month you can't quite understand why your sales declined last month. Whoa! what happened?

OR, instead of going out of business, the shop owner figures out that rather than selling guns, he can do better as a range. Or perhaps he can make more money selling skateboards. However it works out, it's up to the market to decide.

Nobody is owed a thing. Communism isn't a label we just decided to stick on China and Cuba. It's the idea that everything should be equally divided and "fair". "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". The problem with is it does nothing to promote hard work and ingenuity. The capitalistic model corrects that. Those that are not able to compete go out of business. Those that do, flourish. It's survival of the fittest, and it keeps our economy from stagnating as it would if everybody was getting "their fair share".

Hanzo581
April 1, 2011, 02:21 PM
Businesses in general must adapt to the era they exist in, the internet isn't going anywhere.

22-rimfire
April 1, 2011, 03:21 PM
I'm glad there are people like you that want to pay sales tax. That way when I don't pay sales tax the roads still get serviced.

Sales tax is one of the considerations when buying online whether it be firearms, ammunition, accessories, or the new computer. If nothing else, the differential pays for the shipping cost or you hope it does. Remo, you DO know that you are required in most cases to pay state and local sales tax on all mail order purchases (in most cases under state law) whether you agree with that or not. It just so happens that only the big dollar items are captured such as vehicles and so forth. WA is now requiring FFL dealers to charge a tax on transfers. With the changes in shopping habits, mail order purchases are becoming signficant and most states are searching for a practical way to collect these taxes from the merchant because chasing down every genius trying to save a few dollars isn't worth the time. This would increase the mail order merchant's cost to do business... more government forms to complete and maybe another employee or two to keep track of such things. What happens? The price of that firearm from J&G or Buds suddenly goes up a few percent to cover their cost to do business. Enjoy it while you can.

Businesses do have to adapt to the environment they work in. The LGS in Washington may have their shop in a good part of town, they have higher operating costs, or their typical clientele wants and is willing to pay for service. There are always blue light shoppers around. I'm glad that blue light FFL dealers exist. There is a niche for just about everything. If you are a blue light shopper, don't get upset when you can't find someone willing to assist you when you need the service. Then we'll see a thread about how FFL dealers are not standing behind their service and want to charge for something that seems to blue light shoppers should be "free". Nothing, absolutely nothing is free these days whether it is at your local place of worship or the the Porsche dealer. One way or the other, you pay for it. I liken the blue light shoppers to "friends" who just "happen" to drop by your place at meal time or never contribute anything such as food or drink watching your favorite movie or sporting event on TV. It gets old. Eventually it changes or it stops.

browneu
April 1, 2011, 03:21 PM
Most of the LGS in my area are higher than internet dealers on their posted prices. However, the internet store's price ends up being higher after you add in shipping, transfer fees, and my time.

I would rather support the LGS since that keeps my money in my community. The LGS is an employer which pumps the local economy. This is a benefit that can be missed from buying online.

Bubbles
April 1, 2011, 03:22 PM
One poster said if it is more than $25 above the online price, they go with online. Others say... $50. $100? $100 seems a little high to me with all things being equal.
It depends on how much you are willing to pay for convenience and customer service. Some folks want to handle a firearm and walk away from the store with it that day.

Other buyers are willing to take on more risk. For example, if the gun is lost or broken during shipping, or the buyer decides that a used gun isn't "as advertised", then the buyer has to work with the seller to make it right - the transfer dealer isn't going to help resolve those problems because his money isn't on the line.

Remo223
April 1, 2011, 03:42 PM
"Remo, you DO know that you are required in most cases to pay state and local sales tax on all mail order purchases (in most cases under state law) whether you agree with that or not."



internet sales were purposefully exempted from sales tax by design. The purpose for the exemption was to promote the internet. Some states are hurting financially and are trying to get more tax revenue from internet sales. Some states only collect tax from internet sales if the seller is located in the same state as the buyer. Some states collect tax if the seller owns an office or store location in the same state as the buyer. some states collect tax regardless.

It all depends on which communist state you live in and how fascist they are in extorting their taxes.

22-rimfire
April 1, 2011, 03:52 PM
What you say is mostly true. But what is not generally true is that these sales are not exempted. Collection of the individual tax for the merchant was I suspect too difficult as they would technically have to determine not just the state sales tax rate, but local cities and counties rates. So the responsibility generally fell to the consumer/buyer. In my state, you see a range of sales tax rates depending on where you are shopping.

In my state, there is no personal income tax and sales tax is the dominant revenue stream that pays for state services. Not sure about the break down on property tax and so forth but I suspect a portion goes to the state and a portion to the county or city.

This is a topic I find distasteful since I certainly don't want to pay any more taxes than what are required of me and volunteering to pay a sales tax for a purchase at Cabelas or whatever I find troubling. I'm simply trying to provide that larger picture regardless of whether or not I totally agree with it.

Remo223
April 1, 2011, 04:48 PM
I didn't want to get too much into taxes either, but since we are well down that road, here's how they work AFAIK


wheel tax and fuel tax pays all road costs
county property tax pays all public school costs
use taxes on phones, water, sewer, etc pay for things related to those things which are taxed
municipalities levy sales taxes(only within their jurisdictions) to pay for various municipal costs

State sales taxes should not exist
state property taxes should not exist
state income taxes should be extremely minimal to non-existent

and to keep on topic, nowhere in the above descriptions is there a place to fit an internet sales tax...not on firearms or any other merchandise. I'm not shortchanging roads and road maintenance by buying internet guns tax free.

22-rimfire
April 1, 2011, 04:52 PM
I agree with you. I think I'm going to drop this topic as well.... except for the last statement. Tax is tax and it gets used for whatever need that falls within the public jurisdiction (Federal, State, County/parish, Township if applicable, and municipality).

mgregg85
April 1, 2011, 04:58 PM
Hmm, why would they jack up prices?

Is that a serious question? I'm guessing they do it to make money, pay the bills and so on. If you don't like their prices then try to haggle with them, you might use JG sales as a bargaining chip but if they refuse to work with you then walk away, it'll be their loss not yours.

Rembrandt
April 1, 2011, 05:00 PM
Sadly for many their knowledge of economics came from the public education system.....far better had they gotten a degree from the school of hard knocks and owning a business.

rtroha
April 1, 2011, 05:10 PM
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

Guncite says this quote is bogus.

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html

gym
April 1, 2011, 06:53 PM
I never bought a gun online. I have been buying selling and trading guns for over 40 years. and I just would feel funny not being able to see and touch the weapon prior to paying my money. There are always things that go wrong in life, I found that when you leave things to chance stuff just seems to happen. The only time I did a transaction was with a fellow who actually sent me his gun, "without me asking", having never met the guy, or spoken to him. He said that knowing I was a businessman and a trader for so many years he felt he could trust me to do the right thing. Weird right. So he sent me a pistol with instructions that said, if you don't want it for any reason, just send it back, otherwise send me a check. Franklly I couldn't believe it myself.
I had seen his ad on another well known site, and asked him some questions about it, and asked if he would be interested in a trade or a cash deal and put in a price I felt was fair. Go figure, most folks would never be as trusting as this fellow.
By the way I kept it.

AlexanderA
April 1, 2011, 07:04 PM
Back in the days (as recently as the mid-1980's) when we had hundreds of thousands more "kitchen table" FFL dealers, the cost of transfers (and gun markups generally) wasn't so high. The fact is, today, local FFL's have semi-monopolies, and therefore, lacking competition from those with no overhead, can charge whatever the traffic will bear. I'm convinced that making FFL's more difficult to obtain, and more expensive, was part of a plan to drive up gun prices and squash the market.

Hanzo581
April 1, 2011, 07:07 PM
I never buy anything without holding it either, I go to gun shows\stores and hold the firearms I want, make sure I like it, then order the exact model online. I can completely understand not buying used firearms online sight unseen.

LensWork
April 1, 2011, 09:20 PM
Recently I was looking to purchase an American Classic Commander. I did a price search on Gallery of Guns, and found that a local retailer had the item in-stock. Their price on Gallery of Guns was $40 more than an another FFL holder that is not a stocking dealer, but I was willing to pay this difference to buy an in-stock item that I could handle before buying. I went to the local dealer to purchase the pistol only to be told that their price on GoG only applied if I ordered the weapon through GoG. Their in-store price was $125 more! This I cannot understand as obviously they got their in-stock pistol from the same distributor, so why would they not sell me the in-stock item for the same price they offer online? If I wanted to order it, since they were already $40 more than ordering through another FFL, I would order it at the lower price. The dealer's price on the in-stock pistol was $75 ABOVE MSRP.

BigN
April 1, 2011, 10:16 PM
If I could just waltz into a gun shop and pick up something I really wanted for $35/40 more than online, I'd grab it. I take it home that very day, no fuss no muss. $50 or more is borderline thought...

22-rimfire
April 1, 2011, 10:30 PM
Almost always guns priced through Davidson's (GOG) are ordered and shipped to the dealer. It doesn't take more than a week, but you have to wait. The deal there is that the dealer simply makes their profit and it never really affects their overhead (total cost of instock items).

orionengnr
April 1, 2011, 10:34 PM
My local gun dealer is a small shop, but they do not try to make the whole week's profit off of one sale.
They will gladly do a transfer for $20, and they have done many for me. Almost every time I visit, there is someone there taking possession of a transfer or a new gun--their business model is working.

But I only ask them to do transfers on used guns, usually a non-current model (think pre-lock S&W revolvers). If I want to buy something new I will ask what their price is. It is generally within 10% of Buds, etc, and I will pay that 10% premium to help keep them in business.

They strike the right balance between profit and volume, and have very good customer service. As a result, they have some very loyal customers.

sig220mw
April 1, 2011, 10:43 PM
It's all about over head. The store, unless it is huge, doesn't have a brisk enough turnover in it's inventory. They have probably more employees and more bills to pay so they must charge more. On the other hand you can walk in and handle the merchandise before buying and can also bring it back in if there is a problem.

Also as someone else already said, the mark up on firearms isn't that high.
They are fairly expensive at wholesale.

Sunray
April 1, 2011, 10:49 PM
"...maintaining a warehouse and a website..." No warehouse in some cases.
"...gun dealers like to jack up the prices..." They don't, but they like to eat and live inside just like you do. As mentioned, every dealer has different costs. A small guy doesn't get the same wholesale price or in some cases credit terms from their distributors.

Remo223
April 1, 2011, 10:55 PM
Before internet gun sales became popular, I used to buy guns from an old guy that was almost as good as the internet. He never carried new firearms unless it was something unusual. He had a very impressive inventory of used firearms.

You could walk into his shop and tell him you saw a guy with such and such a gun, then describe it to him, and this guy would tell you exactly what it was. Then he would ask you, "do you want me to locate one for ya?" If you said yes he would locate one and call you when he had it in his shop.

he did this WITHOUT the internet. he was out of town on gun buying trips more often than he was in town. he was amazing!

Then he died.

nosmr2
April 1, 2011, 11:08 PM
They are free to jack up prices and I'm free to shop around.

neededausername
April 1, 2011, 11:32 PM
I think many dealers also build in some wiggle room to the price they quote you. In a high dollar transaction you should always negotiate. The worst the seller can do is say no. In the OPs situation I would just tell the local guy here is the price plus transfer, shipping, etc I can pay if I buy it from J&G. Let the dealer know that you understand he has higher overhead and lower volume so you are willing to pay a little more, but not $100 and ask what he can do. He wants to make the sale.

When I bought my house and was shopping for appliances the store I wanted to buy from didn't offer free next day delivery, but their competition did. I found a manager and told him I wanted to buy a few thousand dollars worth of merchandise, and I wanted to buy it from his store. But if I couldn't get free next day delivery I was going across town. Not surprisingly the merchandise showed up at my door the next at no charge. If you don't ask you wont receive.

Lex Luthier
April 2, 2011, 01:33 AM
Another good reason to get to know the nice folks at your mom and pop gun store.

I ordered expensive Crimson Trace grips for my SIG P229, and the quote seemed a little high, but the vet promised to install them and dial them in. I got a call they had arrived, and were $75.00 LESS than the quote. They did not have to lose that $, but they knew how to treat this customer.

FROGO207
April 2, 2011, 08:14 AM
Profit

wep45
April 2, 2011, 10:55 AM
guns, cabbage, underwear.....................you got to shop around and get the best price.

dont spread this around................its a secret!!

Mike Sr.
April 2, 2011, 11:06 AM
I've yet to find a deal on the 'net' that my local FFL -Guns Unlimited in Omaha- will not beat or match...during the last 5 yr's !

kk0g
April 2, 2011, 11:11 AM
They are free to jack up prices and I'm free to shop around.

Bingo!! We have a winner!

This is the way a free market works. Notice the key word in that sentence; you're free to either pay the price the dealer is asking or not and you're free to buy from someone else if you don't like his price.

22-rimfire
April 2, 2011, 11:56 AM
And more importantly, you are FREE to not buy at all.... as they say, just say "No". This is actually a pretty nice position to be in. Basically they give you a fair price or you keep your money. However, I am a firm believer in utilizing the services of the LGS even if you pay a little more. I like them to continue be in business.

Hanzo581
April 2, 2011, 12:04 PM
I've yet to find a deal on the 'net' that my local FFL -Guns Unlimited in Omaha- will not beat or match...during the last 5 yr's !

Consider yourself lucky, 9 out of 10 items in gun shops near me are 20-30% higher than online at least.

22-rimfire
April 2, 2011, 12:19 PM
Stuff costs more around Baltimore/DC area. But you could almost say that this recession didn't even happen in your area either. Count your blessings.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
April 2, 2011, 12:32 PM
It could be the actual cost they need to get to stay in business and/or it could be a simple matter of GREED.

Greed can drive some people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do.:evil:

leadcounsel
April 2, 2011, 04:03 PM
One of my LGSs will never get my business again. I spent a lot of money there on buying stock guns (knowing I was overpaying by 10-15%), having guns sent there and FFL transfers, ammo, and accessories.

I even sent my girlfriend there to buy a speical order gun, which they overcharged her on, while I was deployed.

While I was deployed I asked if they would hold a few FFL transfered guns for me if I ordered them and I would pick them up when I came home.

Nope. NOPE???!!! Really?? Well I guess the 'hassel' of FFL transfers was too much for them and they no longer do them.

So long LGS... There are plenty others. I hate to see one go, but never really cared for them anyway as they always seemed put out, rude and condescending ...

JohnBT
April 2, 2011, 04:44 PM
"a world where the internet is an integral part of the market place."

...and then they send you a NIB gun with a gritty heavy trigger, loose sights, scratched finish, knotholes in the grips and tool marks all over, but you saved $100, right?


"I asked if they would hold a few FFL transfered guns"

My guess is there's a shortage of shelf space in the vault or safe.

mgmorden
April 2, 2011, 05:41 PM
...and then they send you a NIB gun with a gritty heavy trigger, loose sights, scratched finish, knotholes in the grips and tool marks all over, but you saved $100, right?


Except that hasn't been my experience, and certainly can't be the norm based on the popularity of internet sales. As a matter of fact, out of close to 20 guns bought online, the only one that I've had ANY issue with is a CZ-75 shooting a bit low. A set of adjustable sights (less than the difference between local and mail order to get those) fixed that.

The simple reality is that for the most part, my guns ordered online have been problem free. Any suggestion that you should expect some horror story if you order online is simple fear-mongering.

Limeyfellow
April 2, 2011, 05:46 PM
If anything prices have been dropping in the stores steadily for the past couple of years after they realised that the Government wasn't going to come and take everyone's guns away and stick them in concentration camps. Those were good times indeed for gauging on the price. Give it a little more time and prices should be back down to normal.

Hanzo581
April 2, 2011, 05:54 PM
...and then they send you a NIB gun with a gritty heavy trigger, loose sights, scratched finish, knotholes in the grips and tool marks all over, but you saved $100, right?

You do know if you are not satisfied with what you are sent you are not required to accept it, right? If you deal with a reputable online dealer they will make it right.

(This only applies to new firearms, can't speak on used as I would never buy a used gun online)

danprkr
April 2, 2011, 07:56 PM
TO PUT FOOD ON THEIR FAMILY'S TABLE! No other. You call it profit the LGS owner calls it paycheck.

rstull85
April 2, 2011, 08:35 PM
I would feel a little awkward asking about transfer fees and having stuff shipped to them (unless I am buying used or a collectible). Your basically saying, I don't want to buy this off you but can I have it shipped here. And what are you going to do about actually handling it. I have looked at guns online and read great reviews of them. Picked one up and as soon as I got it home realized that I had made a mistake because it didn't feel right. I would rather deal with a LGS where I can actually get customer service and can inspect the gun before I pay for it.
Hanzo581, thats a pretty crappy thing to do to a LGS. Part of the extra cost is picking the gun up and looking at it. I think that you should either buy the gun without handling it or buy it from the LGS.

rscalzo
April 2, 2011, 09:35 PM
When the shops are gone, then were does one get a box or two of ammo? Parts, cleaning gear and all the other items. going to buy everything through the internet? Shipping costs are going up too.

Saving some money through the online stores is great. what happens when there's an issue? The savings are eaten up in return shipping costs. At the very least the days of walking into a shop and holding the item you have an interest in will be over. Everything will be ordered from a catalog and shipping in after the sale is made.

I saw this with the scuba industry. For years internet sales were not the norm. Then that changed and shops closed. No one thought to think about were the participants in the sport were going to get tanks filled or equipment repairs.

There has to be a happy medium between the two areas of sales sources. A vastly different price and the brick and motor outlet will fail. As the OP stated, get close and they will get customer's business.

22-rimfire
April 2, 2011, 11:07 PM
You do know if you are not satisfied with what you are sent you are not required to accept it, right? If you deal with a reputable online dealer they will make it right.

The package is opened, it's accepted. Let's see... you order from Buds and Sports South ships the gun to your transferring dealer. Buds only ordered the gun from Sports South and Sports South is a distributor. Hence your place to express your dissatisfaction is the manufacturer. Dealer had nothing to do with the sale. Buds had little to do with the sale. Sports South just sent it out. You think they actually look at it other than to confirm it is the correct model and caliber perhaps?

JerryM
April 2, 2011, 11:28 PM
Strangely enough, gun dealers are in business to make money. Failure to do so will result in their going out of business. That is Capitalism. I don't object to a dealer making a fair profit. If I don't think it is fair, I will go elsewhere.

Regards,
Jerry

c1ogden
April 3, 2011, 12:06 AM
Most don't "jack up" prices. There is always that supply/demand influence on prices but, as somebody else pointed out, places like J&G buy in volume directly from the manufacturers. Most gunshops don't do enough volume to get the lower prices.

A friend of mine owns a gun shop and I have helped him in his store when he needed it. I can tell you from experience that his cost on many products is more than what places like WalMart sells them for at retail. His cost for Federal American Eagle 9mm 124gr FMJ was $10.87 per box of 50. The local WalMart was selling them at retail for $9.99! That's the difference between his buying about 10 cases a year when WalMart is buying it by the train load every month.

It works the same with guns. If you buy 5 Glocks a year you get them for a certain price. If you buy 5 a week you get them for a much better price.

I don't like it either but that's the way it is.

AKElroy
April 3, 2011, 12:43 AM
It is sad to see what is happeing to the local shops, but the market is constantly changing. The internet is going to put severe price pressure on any retailers selling items that are avaialble from many sources in identical form at a lower cost. It will force them to diversify services; CCW classes, advanced SD classes, competitions, indoor ranges, gunsmithing, custom builds, accessories, etc..

It may also force them to get online and sell direct. Many sellers on GB have storefront shops; GB affordes them the ability to pre-sell guns that do not even get ordered from the wholesale source until you place your order. They can avoid inventory costs that way.

Technology is changing how we buy everything. Mom & pop will have to adjust accordingly. That is just the way the cookie crumbles.

22-rimfire
April 3, 2011, 01:31 AM
The internet has accomplished some amazing things really. My experience started with listings in Shotgun News and GunList which I subscribed to. Things have changed again.

There are benefits on both ends of the sale. Used guns through the online auction sites (classified ads in forums, and GunsAmerica type listings) all of a sudden allow a regular gun owner access to a national market rather than being limited to the few people they know when they need/want to sell a firearm. The end result is a nationwide leveling of prices in non-communist states. It is great for the seller because he can frequently sell at a higher price. It is great for the buyer because he has access to many more firearms and stuff he might only dream about from a collector standpoint. The entity that suffers is the local gun store because he is now competing with internet sales on both the new and used side of the equation. I fully expect transfer fees to increase.

I don't know where all this is headed, but the price you pay for the LGS service may actually be going up, if the LGS is going to stay in business. Folks that live in a rural area (aka no zoning) can operate a business out of their garage on the side and make a fair amount of money just doing transfers. As long as their paperwork is in order and they have their FFL of course, things work. But the LGS who actually depends on customer service to make things work is in trouble.

It is like the hardware store business.... Lowes and Home Depot move into town and the local stores get pushed out of buisness. In their case, not so much because of price, but inventory. Few gunshops can carry the inventory because their local market can not support it, so they become a "Buds" type business. The whole USA is turning into a big Walmart where you have to beg for service! Sometimes you can't even get it if you are willing to pay for it. Looking at a picture in a catalog to buy a firearm is not so far fetched. It's back to the days of Sears and Mongomery Wards catalogs as their main source of goods that are frequently not carried locally.

Lex Luthier
April 3, 2011, 02:34 AM
And here's another reason to shop at your local favorite place.

Same P229, same Crimson Trace grips: More experienced man on duty took a closer look and suggested strongly that adding the Crimson Trace would be a BAD idea based in the special LEO grips it came with, and then in a calm, honest tone explained why. We both agreed that diminishing this fine firearm's value was not the point. They do not like to return special orders, but put it in the case with the other stock. My wife ended up with her first pistol, a Ruger LC9, for a little more $ than the CT.

blackspyder
April 3, 2011, 02:49 AM
I know my LGS's have a x% markup, no big deal on items under $1000. After $1k I'm gonna haggle with you. Most of my local shops can hang with Buds. My Taurus PT-111 was $333 on Bud's my OTD cost at one LGS $380 and they opened on New Years Eve for me to get it. My RIA 4" 1911 I found online for $414 and I'm paying another LGS $489 OTD (Overnighting it was $50). Only reason I didn't go back to the first dealer was because his distributor was out of stock.

danprkr
April 3, 2011, 07:48 AM
If that's the case lets just make it $50/hour! Reality doesn't work that way. Your time is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If an employer is only willing to pay you $12.50 an hour for your time then you can LIKE getting paid $25/hour all day long and it isn't going to change the market value of your time.

On the other hand, if I think that the next employer is going to pay me 50 I am free to hold out for that, and it's none of your business what he does or does not pay me. If I don't meet the market price for my labor eventually I starve. The value of anything gun, labor, or widgets is what the 2 people making the transaction decide it is at that moment in time. No one else matters.

Sadly for many their knowledge of economics came from the public education system.....far better had they gotten a degree from the school of hard knocks and owning a business.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!

It could be the actual cost they need to get to stay in business and/or it could be a simple matter of GREED.

Greed can drive some people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do!!

You say that like greed is a bad thing in a capitalist system. It's not, it's what drives all innovation, the greed for more comfort, more freedom, more time, more whatever is the desire that spurs the ideas that become the new products that revolutionize a society.

It's actually a beautiful thing in America. We are all FREE, not only to carry and own arms, but to choose from whom and under what terms we buy AND sell them. Those that get bent out of shape when they think a price is to high are showing an immaturity that is silly.

I was working a gun show a couple of weeks ago for a buddy. A very rude customer was trying to beat him down on a price. This guy was insulting the gun, and my friend who'd built the gun, and his selection, just everything, and then throwing low ball offers out that were less than the costs of the gun to my buddy. The rude customer finally straight out asked, "Why do you think you can get so much?"

He replied, "Because I've been getting that much." Which was true, he was right dead on the average price for that particular gun in that show. Not his tagged price, but his taking price.

The rude customer left in a huff, but without saying anything. I watched him leave the show empty handed. When asked about it later my buddy just said, "If I took every @$$&@(% seriously who didn't want to meet my price I'd never be able to sell anything at these shows because I'd be in jail for assault. So I just let it go."

No matter what you think something is worth, that someone else thinks it's worth more OR less is not an insult, it's just a difference of opinion so don't get your panties in a bunch. Either pay, haggle, or say no, and MOVE ON!

THAT'S FREEDOM!

merlinfire
April 3, 2011, 10:28 AM
A pick any of the following:

Suppliers/Importers raised their prices

Anticipation of importers raising prices (they have to sell them for more than they will have to pay to replace, not for how much they paid for it. People complain about gas prices the same way, it has nothing to do with whats in the tanks, but how much the supplier is charging for the next load)

And of course, there is profit opportunity, that some call greed. But then, that would be sort of like calling the fact that I'm asking for a promotion next month greed. How dare I? Now if you wanna talk about greed, I've got a CEO of GE I'd like to introduce you to, GE paid no taxes in 2010 despite making 14.2 billion in profits, his pay doubled, and they're cutting pay and benefits for 15,000 workers.

merlinfire
April 3, 2011, 10:30 AM
You say that like greed is a bad thing in a capitalist system. It's not, it's what drives all innovation, the greed for more comfort, more freedom, more time, more whatever is the desire that spurs the ideas that become the new products that revolutionize a society.


Sometimes the innovation it creates is just raising his own pay, and cutting the pay of workers. At the highest levels, I don't believe that greed produces innovation. Now, for the mid-level engineer that will get a raise for great ideas, or the small business owner who will be able to pay for his kid's college with the revenue from this new product (even a gun store owner!), then yes. But we've seen in the last couple of years, huge yacht-sailing bonuses and pay raises for the highest echelons of major companies, balanced on the backs of layoffs and paycuts for the people that get stuff done.

mgmorden
April 3, 2011, 08:03 PM
On the other hand, if I think that the next employer is going to pay me 50 I am free to hold out for that, and it's none of your business what he does or does not pay me. If I don't meet the market price for my labor eventually I starve. The value of anything gun, labor, or widgets is what the 2 people making the transaction decide it is at that moment in time. No one else matters.

Indeed you are correct. However, as is indicated by a growing number of local gun shops going under, it seems that they're holding out for that "next employer" that never comes along. While waiting for that $50/hour opportunity that will never get there, they were passing up that $12.50 an hour job that they could have had.

As always, the market sets the price. You're free to sell or not sell at whatever price you choose, but if you set your asking prices above what the market will pay then it's very unlikely that you're going to move your inventory. Then the less intelligent amongst the business community start thinking "Man, I'm not selling much. I need to raise my prices so that I can make more money on the few guns I DO sell . . .". Their sales drop even lower and they wonder why.

As has been said by everyone in the thread who understands a market economy - a shop can charge whatever they like - it's their inventory. On the flip side, the customer can choose to shop elsewhere if they think the prices are too high. Whatever reason they can come up with - can't buy at the same discounts as the big guys, don't do enough volume, rent/power is too high, etc, is generally not the concern of the customer. The customer wants what the customer wants and it's up to the business owner to gain enough sales or go under.

If my local gunshop doesn't do the volume of Buds, then I REALLY JUST DON'T CARE. Buds once didn't do the volume they did either. They managed their business well enough to get to that point and if the LGS would step up their game they could get to that point too.

Lead Head
April 3, 2011, 08:14 PM
That's an easy question...to make money.

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