Name This Revolver


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jeadams
April 1, 2011, 02:14 PM
This is a photo of my GG Grandfather around 1862 after he had joined the Confederacy. I posted this on another forum and some started debating what type of revolver it is that he is holding. I had never put much thought into it until now. Below is the information from his pension records from the state of Texas.


Joined - Co. C 1st Texas Partisan Rangers Cavalry in Wood County Texas July 17th 1862. He Served until the end of the war & surrendered at Marlin, Texas on April 1865. It states that he was transferred to post duty in April 1863 in Shreveport Louisiana. (According to our family stories it has been said the he had survived the “Yellow Fever or Small Pox” and was posted to a military hospital in Shreveport Louisiana.
http://txgenes.com/TxRains/photos/Wafer/WaferMabryWFront.jpg

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451 Detonics
April 1, 2011, 02:28 PM
Appears to be a Walker to me...basing this on cylinder length and loading lever

and look at where he has his finger....lol...

Noz
April 1, 2011, 02:29 PM
I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn but that looks like a Dragoon to me.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
April 1, 2011, 02:31 PM
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/Untitled49_filtered-1.jpg

Texas Moon
April 1, 2011, 02:35 PM
I'd say a Dragoon. 1st or 2nd Model.

Looks like the tip of the loading lever is a bit too close to the muzzle to be a Walker. Picture isn't clear enough to make out a lever latch.
Those old timers used a lot of prop guns in those studio type photos so it could be a Dragoon without a latch. Maybe thats why the gun is sitting on his arm(to hold the lever in place?)

Another clue is the lack of a ball loading port on the barrel below the wedge.
On a Walker the loading port is is on the same side as the wedge screw. On a Dragoon the port is on the side opposite the wedge screw.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
April 1, 2011, 02:48 PM
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/RightSide.jpg

makos_goods
April 1, 2011, 03:14 PM
Appears to be a Walker to me...basing this on cylinder length and loading lever

and look at where he has his finger....lol...
Nope, not a Walker... Barrel is too short, cylinder is too short, wrong bolt notches and there is a loading lever catch there if you look.

Noz and Texas Moon are correct. I'd say a 2nd model. If you blow the cylinder up it appears the bolt notches are rectangular with a small lead-in It has the square trigger guard so it smells like a 2nd model.

Texas moon is also correct about the picture being reversed, not only is the pistol backwards (wedge and cap loading port) but his coat buttons and overlap are backwards.

I don't think it is Confederate copy, it's definitely not a Dance and most of the Sherrards (which were the most faithful in appearance) had the rounded trigger guard, most but not all. I have seen Sherrards with square trigger guards, but they had a very odd lowered hammer spur and the barrel block was different. Most probably a Colt's 2nd Model Dragoon.

Regards,
Mako

jeadams
April 1, 2011, 03:52 PM
Thanks guys!

Remo223
April 1, 2011, 04:02 PM
Appears to be a Walker to me...basing this on cylinder length and loading lever

and look at where he has his finger....lol...
That's a single action. It's not cocked.

...and "his"?

Looks like a middle aged woman to me.

Curator
April 1, 2011, 07:18 PM
Keep in mind that the photographers who set up these photo sessions often had "props" with which their customers were posed. The pistol is a first model Dragoon or 1848 Colt Army revolver. In the early days of the War between the Stated this was a bit more common than the 1860 Army Colt.

Curator
April 1, 2011, 07:20 PM
Small point overlooked--these pictures are also a "mirror image" due to the way they were produced so the pistol is showing the left side.

Fingers McGee
April 1, 2011, 07:42 PM
To my untrained eye, the bolt stop cuts look oval with no lead in to me. That would make it a first model. But, I could be wrong, in which case Makos would be right.

FM

72coupe
April 1, 2011, 07:42 PM
Cool photo. 2nd Dragoon.

makos_goods
April 1, 2011, 08:05 PM
Keep in mind that the photographers who set up these photo sessions often had "props" with which their customers were posed. The pistol is a first model Dragoon or 1848 Colt Army revolver. In the early days of the War between the Stated this was a bit more common than the 1860 Army Colt.
Curator,
About the Model...
1. All Dragoon models from 1st to 3rd are 1848s. The Model preceding it is sometimes called the Colt Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon or the Colt Walker Transition Dragoon. They were produced in 1847.
2. It is not a 1st model, from the features we have identified it as a second model (there is a remote chance it is a Confederate copy, but in this case we will apply Occam's Razor). Read the posts before yours.

Small point overlooked--these pictures are also a "mirror image" due to the way they were produced so the pistol is showing the left side.

That was not overlooked, once again read the posts before yours. I believe Texas Moon may have edited out his comment this afternoon.

So yep… it is most probably a studio gun, but it is most probably a 2nd Model Colt Dragoon which is what the original poster asked about. And yes the print is a laterally reversed daguerreotype, because to get one in the correct orientation required copying the image a second time, that was an additional cost and most people didn’t get it done.

Regards,
Mako

makos_goods
April 1, 2011, 08:26 PM
To my untrained eye, the bolt stop cuts look oval with no lead in to me. That would make it a first model. But, I could be wrong, in which case Makos would be right.

FM
FIngers,

Look at this image. I know it's very blurry but it looks way too wide for a 1st model. Remember the picture is reversed and the lead-in will be on the top edge instead of the bottom. Now look at the bottom circle, do you notice how you can see into the slot and you see the back wall f the slot? You could only do that if there was a lead-in. I could be wrong, but it is my best guess based on the photo.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/Mod.jpg

Your friend,
Mako

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
April 1, 2011, 11:20 PM
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/RightSide.jpg

Fingers McGee
April 1, 2011, 11:45 PM
Makos,

The picture is so blurry it's hard to tell. The blow up in post 4 looked like ovals to me; but the blowup in your post 15 they look more square. So, you're probably right in it being a 2nd Model. If the photo was taken in 1862, it couldn't be a T&S or a Dance since they weren't made til 1863-64.

Captain*kirk
April 2, 2011, 12:58 AM
Could it be a Leech & Rigdon?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://civilwarhandgun.com/leech%26rigdon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://civilwarhandgun.com/obscure.htm&usg=__yG_nX0174QHXe7t79qs51EVYISQ=&h=208&w=532&sz=15&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=0CLAikfYnTjLSM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=290&ei=qqyWTfTSCs2_tgeH9ezuCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dleech%2B%2526%2BRigdon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D800%26bih%3D381%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=400&vpy=110&dur=4726&hovh=140&hovw=359&tx=156&ty=97&oei=qqyWTfTSCs2_tgeH9ezuCw&page=1&ndsp=5&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

StrawHat
April 2, 2011, 07:06 AM
I am going to go with a Dragoon of some sort. What can be seen of the guard looks like it is squared off so that makes it a ?? Model.

jeadams

You have the photo, is the revolver still with the family?

makos_goods
April 2, 2011, 10:03 AM
Could it be a Leech & Rigdon?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://civilwarhandgun.com/leech%26rigdon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://civilwarhandgun.com/obscure.htm&usg=__yG_nX0174QHXe7t79qs51EVYISQ=&h=208&w=532&sz=15&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=0CLAikfYnTjLSM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=290&ei=qqyWTfTSCs2_tgeH9ezuCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dleech%2B%2526%2BRigdon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D800%26bih%3D381%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=400&vpy=110&dur=4726&hovh=140&hovw=359&tx=156&ty=97&oei=qqyWTfTSCs2_tgeH9ezuCw&page=1&ndsp=5&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0
Captain,
Leech and Rigdon didn't make a Dragoon size pistol. Their pistols were all more or less Navy size frames and from all reports they were all in .36 caliber.

Dragoons were popular in Texas, there was a mind set there that was epitomized by Capt. Walker when he was working with Colt designing the pistol we now call the Walker. He wanted a pistol "that could kill a Comanche, or a horse."

And Fingers caught something I should have based on the date. The 1862 time frame pretty much relegates the pistol to being a Colt Dragoon. The Confederate copies weren't in production yet.

Regards,
Mako

makos_goods
April 2, 2011, 10:21 AM
I am going to go with a Dragoon of some sort. What can be seen of the guard looks like it is squared off so that makes it a ?? Model.

jeadams

You have the photo, is the revolver still with the family?
Strawhat,
Basically 4 Colt Dragoon sized pistols were sold with the squared trigger guards.
1. The Walker
2. the Colt Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon or the Colt Walker Transition Dragoon
3. 1848 Dragoon Model 1
4. 1848 Dragoon Model 2

Unfortunately for Jeadams I'd bet Yankee paper money that the pistol was a studio pistol. Sibley's command was short on everything includiung uniforms and weapons. Most of the men provided their own. Unless he owned that Dragoon before the war he probably carried a Shotgun or rifle. Secondly if that was a family heirloom he probably would have offered that information in his first post.

Regards,
Mako

ClemBert
April 2, 2011, 06:19 PM
Yup, 1st or 2nd Dragoon.

72coupe
April 2, 2011, 07:45 PM
In the 1840s and 1850s Texas was in full scale war with the Commanches. Every Texan that was West of the 98th meridian needed a pistol capable of outranging a group of Commanches on horse back.

The Texas Rangers and citizens on the frontier were aquiring Dragoons as quickly as they could.

kBob
April 3, 2011, 09:31 AM
I was looking at those leather straps and wondering if he is wearing something like a Sam Brown rig to allow him to use that 2nd Model Dragoon as a belt pistol rather than hanging it over the sadle pommel. I tried to look under his right hand between his leg and the table to see if there was a holster there but things got to blurry and blocked.

Mybe it is a saber belt but how many of Selby's guys had sabers?

I am jjealous in that there are no pictures of my great to the nth in 1861 with 1st FL CAV. I understand it was unusual to be armed with anything but a single shot shotgun brought from home among those guys. BTW he did not choose to go home and be a Cracker COwboy after his one year commitmrnt but stayed thhhough Bentonville with one Infantry Regiment or another and then "lived" at Ft. Mc Henry untl after the war. His/our family in more southern FLorida did not know he survived the war until 1964. You see a dying budy ask him to drop by and see the widow just on the florida side of the georgia border on the way home and.....she stopped being a widow. He just never got around to writing.his folks.

-kBob

madcratebuilder
April 3, 2011, 09:48 AM
The pronounced forcing cone and distance between cylinder and barrel lug=Dragoon.

Captain*kirk
April 3, 2011, 04:17 PM
Yeah, I can see that now. Can't get a clear enough view of the cylinder notches to see if they're oval or rectangular, though.
I'm gonna go with 1st Dragoon as my choice.

jeadams
April 3, 2011, 04:55 PM
Thanks guys for all the information! The pistol is not in the family, I sure wish it was.

45-70 Ranger
April 3, 2011, 07:03 PM
Funny thing was that the man surrendered in Marlin, TX. Now I lived there for 14 years, but never knew of any soldiers that were ever posted, residing, or surrendering there from the South. I studied the history of that area, but I was impressed to hear that we had at least one trooper there! Thanks for that bit of information! Ain't history grand? Thanks for sharing it with us....

Wade

BHP FAN
April 3, 2011, 08:21 PM
''Name This Revolver..''
OK, I'm going to call it ''Bill''.

mykeal
April 3, 2011, 10:44 PM
I was going to ask how you know it's a male revolver, but on second thought I think I'll just let that one lay there.

StrawHat
April 4, 2011, 05:53 AM
makos_goods

...Strawhat,
Basically 4 Colt Dragoon sized pistols were sold with the squared trigger guards.
1. The Walker
2. the Colt Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon or the Colt Walker Transition Dragoon
3. 1848 Dragoon Model 1
4. 1848 Dragoon Model 2

Regards,
Mako

Thank you Mako, I knew of the Walker and the Transitional revolver and the 1st Model but after that I got a bit foggy. I appreciate the refresher course.

StrawHat

twaits
April 4, 2011, 09:40 AM
At first glance I thought 1st model Dragoon as the burriness of the pic made the stops look oval. But with the blown up pics my vote is for 2nd model.

I just looked again...i think the pics are too blurry to be sure. If I squint my eyes on the blown up pic they look like ovals...:)
What looks like it could be the lead in before the notch could also just be the light reflecting off the back side of the oval notch.
Maybe I'm just over analyzing...

makos_goods
April 4, 2011, 10:49 AM
Okay....... Last time.

Jeadams Great Great Grandfather

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/Mod-1.jpg


An oval bolt stop notch 1848 1st Model

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/1stModelcropped.jpg



A rectangular bolt stop notch 1848 2nd Model

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/2ndModelCropped.jpg

jeadams
April 4, 2011, 03:58 PM
I like that name BHP Fan!

ElvinWarrior
April 5, 2011, 05:03 AM
Terrific posting !!! Thanks for sharing !!!

I learned TONS by reading all the stuff posted here !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

Oyeboten
April 5, 2011, 09:34 AM
Could it be a 'Tucker, Sherrard'?

http://www.american-firearms.com/american-firearms/z-html/company-T/Tucker,%20Sherrard%20&%20Company/Tucker,%20Sherrard%20&%20Company.html


http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=2072646

madcratebuilder
April 5, 2011, 10:14 AM
Could it be a 'Tucker, Sherrard'?

http://www.american-firearms.com/american-firearms/z-html/company-T/Tucker,%20Sherrard%20&%20Company/Tucker,%20Sherrard%20&%20Company.html


http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=2072646
Very few were actually made. TS delivered very few revolvers in relation to money appropriated by the CSA. This is the case with most all the small revolver makers during the Civil War. If you worked in the munitions industry you were exempt from the draft. These workers "paid" to get these jobs. Crony capitalism, corruption, greed, nothing new.

Fingers McGee
April 5, 2011, 12:18 PM
Could it be a 'Tucker, Sherrard'?

No, T&S revolvers weren't made til well after the picture was taken. This question was answered in posts 17 and 20. The date of the inception of the company has very little relationship to when or how many of the product was completed.

FM

makos_goods
April 5, 2011, 01:12 PM
Could it be a 'Tucker, Sherrard'?

http://www.american-firearms.com/american-firearms/z-html/company-T/Tucker,%20Sherrard%20&%20Company/Tucker,%20Sherrard%20&%20Company.html


http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=2072646
Oyerboten,
Fingers already addressed this issue.

The time frame limits what pistol it could be. Because the photo was taken in 1862, it pretty much means the pistol had to be a Colt's 1848 2nd Model.

I have done some light research on the Sherrards and all of the pistols built in Texas. The earlier "Sherrard" models had the lowered hammer profile and the square trigger guard. The later models when Clark became the money man were of the 3rd model Colt's trigger guard pattern. Those where much more faithful to the Colt's design and the best examples were assembled after the war.

Even though the contract from the State of Texas was signed on April 9, 1862 the first pistols weren't delivered until 1863 according to information in the Sanders-Metzger Collection at Texas A&M (There may have been some prototypes or pilot production samples around, but it is doubtful they would have made their way to a photo studio as a prop.). They have an example of a Tucker, Sherrard & Co. dragoon on display there. There is also a Dance revolver there, Colt's Dragoons and a couple of nice Walkers.

The Museum used to be online until about three years ago and was a great research tool. Now you have to visit in person or be a registered "researcher" with permission form the university to access the archives that have the photos.

Regards,
Mako

Oyeboten
April 6, 2011, 01:59 AM
Ahhhhh...( TS Dragoons being too late for this image )...


But, far as the Draft or Dreft deferment is concerned...I was not aware that the Confederacy had enacted any 'draft'.


Too bad about Texas A&M having stopped their on-line access to info on collections...I sure would have liked to have seen images of some of their Treasures, for sure.

makos_goods
April 6, 2011, 03:03 AM
Ahhhhh...( TS Dragoons being too late for this image )...


But, far as the Draft or Dreft deferment is concerned...I was not aware that the Confederacy had enacted any 'draft'...

Yep, 1st national draft in America. Happened in March of '62. The union followed suit exactly one year later. Before that the Federal government didn't have the right to conscript. There had been compulsory requirements for enlistment in the militia as far back as colonial times, but no national conscription. That was colony, city or local and then leading to state authority, but no national authority to do so.

It's actually a violation of state sovereignty (both U.S. and C.S.A.) and showed the creeping usurping of power by the Federal Governments. In the South when Jefferson Davis did it almost by decree there was almost an insurrection. The Confederate congress rubber stamped his proposed act and there was violent resistance in some cases. People forget the reason the Confederacy seceded was due to an encroachment and dilution of State's rights, this was salt in an open wound.

The actual number of true conscripts for the North was extremely low, probably as low as 2% for the Union, there were actually more men (probably 6%) who were paid substitutes than men that were drafted in the Northern Armies. In the Confederate Armies the number of conscripts were probably somewhere between 25 and 33 % after the Spring of '64 in the Armies East of the Mississippi. There were huge numbers of exemptions and you could buy your way out on both sides. The Southern conscription originally specified men between the ages of 18 and 35 and was changed to 17 to 50 in early '64.

C.S.A. enlistments were changed as well with the original being one year and then changed to 3 then changed to the "duration." Each time the enlistment was changed it was right before there there would have been a mass exodus of enlistees from a particular raised Army.

~Mako

joelvca
April 20, 2011, 05:06 PM
Okay....... Last time.

Jeadams Great Great Grandfather

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/Mod-1.jpg


An oval bolt stop notch 1848 1st Model

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/1stModelcropped.jpg



A rectangular bolt stop notch 1848 2nd Model

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/2ndModelCropped.jpg
Is it just camera angle, or do the position of the hammer and the nipple recesses in the original photo suggest that the hammer is resting between the nipples? Did the Dragoons (of whichever model) have the safety pins, whatever they are properly called?

Regards,
Joel

Busyhands94
April 20, 2011, 05:38 PM
looks like a Dragoon to me.

twaits
April 20, 2011, 07:36 PM
Is it just camera angle, or do the position of the hammer and the nipple recesses in the original photo suggest that the hammer is resting between the nipples? Did the Dragoons (of whichever model) have the safety pins, whatever they are properly called?

That is exactly the case. That's why I still think they could be oval notches with the light reflecting on the back of the notch. The notch is lower on the gun in the original photo because it is probably loaded and the hammer is resting on one of the pins between the nipples for safe carry.

I now am convinced it's a First Model Dragoon.

col.lemat
May 1, 2011, 02:49 PM
my vote is a second model dragoon

BHP FAN
May 2, 2011, 10:44 AM
''Name This Revolver''...
OK, it's ''Bob''...LOL! Sorry, could not resist...I'll be quiet, now.

Skinny 1950
May 5, 2011, 02:55 AM
If it could be authenticated as a Walker the photo then becomes one of very few that exist. There were not that many made and are the holy grail for some Colt collectors.

makos_goods
May 5, 2011, 12:51 PM
If it could be authenticated as a Walker the photo then becomes one of very few that exist. There were not that many made and are the holy grail for some Colt collectors.
Skinny,
It's already been established that it is not a Walker (US 1847 Model Holster Pistol). The barrel is too short, and the lever is wrong. The only way it could be a Walker is if someone went to great pains to shorten the barrel, replace the sight in exactly the same position as the 1848 Dragoon series and trim the loading ever and square it to match the profile of a Dragoon (US 1848 Model Holster Pistol). Ohhh, and I forgot... the wedge is on the wrong side for a Walker and the cylinder is too short. So unless they remade the entire frame and shortened the cylinder as it couldn't be Walker.

The only mystery is whether it is a 1st or 2nd Model Dragoon. That is why we have been looking at the cylinder stop shapes. Oh I guess there is a One in a Billion chance it could be a "Whitneyville Dragoon" That would be even rarer than a Walker, but I'd bet my life it wasn't. I'm pretty sure it is a 2nd Model US 1848 Holster Pistol (2nd Model Dragoon), but I can see why others might think it was a 1st model.

Have a nice day,
Mako

twaits
May 6, 2011, 09:59 AM
Skinny 1950 does bring up a good question though. I wonder if there is ANY known photograph from the 1800s of a person holding a Walker? If so I would love to see it!

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