[guns'ahoy]

:eek:

http://www.viperalley.com/gallery/data/509/224Helicopter_Kills.mpg


right click to save as .. .

[Texasbagman]

OH MY!

OUCH!

[Pappy John]

Yikes!

[El Tejon]

Note the "FLIR". According to the FBI, these were only 'sunspots.":uhoh:

[Med 10]

War is ugly aint it? I really dont know what to think about that footage, but I'm glad it was them and not us!
Thanks for the link.

[guns'ahoy]

Note the "FLIR". According to the FBI, these were only 'sunspots."

im not up on my jargon :o ... what is FLIR and what does the FBI have to do with it ?

[El Tejon]

Forward Looking Infra-Red--FLIR.

On the final assault on the Branch Davidians in Tejas, Delta and the HRT shooters (and long gunners) were killing church members as they fled the structure. The FBI and the U.S. government said that the FLIR video was showing reflections from the sun on the muzzles of the M4s and HK54s.

[guns'ahoy]

Forward Looking Infra-Red--FLIR.

On the final assault on the Branch Davidians in Tejas, Delta and the HRT shooters (and long gunners) were killing church members as they fled the structure. The FBI and the U.S. government said that the FLIR video was showing reflections from the sun on the muzzles of the M4s and HK54s.



ah ok... as in to cover up them gunning down the people.



and is it just me, or is there no quote button on this forum?

[c_yeager]

They really dont have ANY concept of our nightfighting capabilities over there do they? You can clearly see several "hiding" in plain sight. Im going to save this clip and show it to the next guy that thinks a new revolution is on its way headed by mall ninjas in pickups. I sure wouldnt want to be "fighting" those guys.

[rayjay]

Thats gonna leave a mark come morning:what:

[Chupacabra]

:what:

Ouch! I almost feel sorry for those guys.

[Kobun]

It seems like the sights are a bit off, and the rounds are hitting a couple of feet to the left. :confused:

Anyone know why?

[Nathanael_Greene]

Nice shooting.

[geekWithA.45]

It seems like the sights are a bit off, and the rounds are hitting a couple of feet to the left. Anyone know why?

Wind?

[M99M12]

Fill your hands, you :cuss:

[Ky Larry]

I've seen what quad .50's and 20mm Vulcans can do. I'm not surprised. You should see the after effects of a couple of passes by an AC-130 gunship.:what: Or ask the Iraqi's about "Steel Rain."

[Beav]

It seems like the sights are a bit off, and the rounds are hitting a couple of feet to the left.

I would guess that the camera and the actually gun aren't exactly inline?

[fourdeuce82d]

It's Spankalicious!

[JoeWang]

If you noticed the vehicle on the far left was a tractor, the tiller was attached and there were visible tiller marks behind it. As the one guy leaves the tractor and walks right, the other guy is adjusting his headdress so he can work on the tractor. You can see the furrows in the video.

The guy on the far right jumps under the truck when he sees his buddy explode for no reason. Why he came out I don't know.The guy working on the tractor didn't see a thing.

Without knowing the full story behind this assault it is very troubling.

They say farming is the most dangerous occupation in the U.S., same goes for Iraq I guess.

[moa]

Maybe those "farmers" were harvesting cucumbers of mass destruction.

Plinking farmers. Didn't they do that in Vietnam?.

[Drjones]

Site is down.

[fish2xs]

did anyone save the mpg file? (please?)

[fatboyclone]

i did, anyone want me to mail it to them?

[Drjones]

How big is the file?

[JoeWang]

4.5MB

I've got it.

I can send out a few in the next five minutes before going home.

[schadenfreude]

Please email it to ryan@lunitixx.com

Thanks

[Bravo11]

Can u post it here for us to get?

[fatboyclone]

4.64 mb, it would be awesome if one of our members could host it for a little while. anyone?

[schadenfreude]

I can host it yes

[JoeWang]

I just e mailed you.

[fatboyclone]

schadenfreude- mail sent

[schadenfreude]

Right click and choose save as


http://www.lunitixx.com/sharefoo/224Helicopter_Kills.mpeg

[fish2xs]

joewang & fatboyclone, I just PM'd my email.

I will be in your debt if you can forward that file to me.

Thanks!

[fatboyclone]

check your box fish!

[schadenfreude]

They do look like farmers.

I like this AC 130 vid better

Right click save as

http://www.lunitixx.com/sharefoo/AC130_GunshipMed.wmv

[fish2xs]

I guys those guys on the ground picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue...

many thanks!
-phil

[Bigjake]

whoa. impressive

[Grey54956]

Impressive, maybe. Disturbing, definitely...

I don't know why these guys were fired upon, as they do seem to be using a bit of farm equipment. Yes, I know they might just be sneaky gits disguised as farmers.

However, I find it unsettling that the gunner executes an obviously wounded man, i.e. the third target. I am not sure, but would this qualify as a war crime? The man is obvisously wounded. He doesn't seem to pose a direct threat to the attacking chopper crew. And, with the recent poor quality of U.S. Military Intel, I am curious whether these are actually civilians plowing the fields at night.

Last time I checked, executing civilians was a war crime.

[thumbtack]

wow

:what:
:what:
:what:

[MAKOwner]

Good lord, that is disheartening. Think of that firepower being brought to bear against us... You're crap outta luck like those suckers.

They certainly look like farmers or unarmed innocents but I can only assume since we don't know why they were targeted that they could easily have been terrorists or soldiers up to no good.

[Hkmp5sd]

ABC news is showing this clip, harping on the "Rules of Engagement". According to them, it is "disturbing." Since the BGs had weapons, the only thing they could complain about was the Apache's 30mm cannon was more firepower than was needed to kill them.

[TheeBadOne]

"Air Superiority"

[JoeWang]

I'm from Illinois, and I've been out in the fields *late* at night getting the job done before the time is up. Getting wasted by an AH from a mile and half out with a 30mm cannon would suck just because I was the wrong stiff in the wrong place.

I didn't see them armed or returning fire, but that's what video clips are all about. I wasn't there, I don't know.

Maybe they were opium/hash farmers or terrorists covering up and deserved their lot, maybe not. I hope they deserved it. No innocent man should die like that.

It definately is not good PR for the US Armed Forces.

[Ryder]

The clip I saw on ABS news showed the pickup driver tossing an RPG in the field. His actions were quite deceptive in nature and criminal in appearance. Permission to fire was granted based on the assumption these weapons would later be used against our troops. The guy with the plow was there to bury the weapon, they were not planting crops in the middle of the night.

[MAKOwner]

Anyone have the extended footage??

[Drjones]

It's been said above and it bears repeating: you weren't there and you don't know.

If you want to think of our men as a bunch of murderous, bloodthirsty thugs, I say that you have big problems.

This clip doesn't tell us anything. It doesn't tell us who, what, when, where, or why.

[JoeWang]

So I didn't get the full picture, and that is why video is always suspect. These guys took a couple of pages from the hezbo and Palestinian play books, and I bought it. Apologies to the men and women in green.

Still, it isn't good PR for us.

[jwmoore]

Ryder has it... I saw the entended clip on ABC world news. The middle guy definitely ran into the field and tossed a weapon. The crew requested and received permission to fire. Good shoot, as far as I'm concerned.

~W

[Sean Smith]

Funny how the immediate impulse of some folks is to say, "oh, the U.S. military is being a bunch of baby killers again!" :rolleyes:

One of the, if not the, biggest threats to helicopters over there is RPG and SA-7 fire. They would have been justified greasing those folks instantly. Oh, and Apache helicopters don't have anything smaller than 30mm.

[mattd]

I want to full video, not the highly edited one.

[JoeWang]

Please post or email to someone who can host it. It will be a a good lesson for me and everyone else. Again, no hard feelings. I did not insinuate that the troops were killers. I just questioned their actions, which is allowed in a democracy. It turned out I was wrong. Mea culpa.

[gundam007]

Right after they look at the tractor, one of the men to the left had his arms spaced in a way that looked like he was holding a rifle (not aiming, just across his chest).

[makarov1]

I saw the unedited footage, and it showed the RPG tossed into the field. What made me so mad was the fact that Peter Jennings gave ample warning that the footage was very disturbing. HAD I NOT SEEN THE RPG TOSSED INTO THE FIELD, yes, the footage may have been disturbing. However, given the circumstances, the footage wasn't disturbing at all. The PC crowd will contend that we should detain these guys and give them a fair trial, as if that's a deterrant. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that these jihadists/Baath loyalists got what they deserved.

[schadenfreude]

HAD I NOT SEEN THE RPG TOSSED INTO THE FIELD, yes, the footage may have been disturbing. However, given the circumstances, the footage wasn't disturbing at all.


Exactly, the media completely removes the context then sets it up for their agenda.

Sickening on their part not the pilots.

[DorGunR]

Plinking farmers. Didn't they do that in Vietnam?.

moa........I believe you've been watching too many of Mr. Stone's movies.

But Hollywood never did let the truth get in the way of a "good" movie.:rolleyes:

[mete]

The last time I watched Peter Jennings was the time of the 50th anniversity of the dropping of the atom bomb. Jennings never mentioned we were at war at the time, never mentioned Japan had started it . He made it appear that America ,just out of meaness , dropped the bomb on innocent Japan.

[UnknownSailor]

Regarding the 30mm and accuracy, my dad used to work on the Apache program, back when it still was Hughes Helicopters, and it would appear that due to the designed in flexibility of the mount (collapses upwards in a crash, between the pilots), the gun POA wanders vertically during strings of fire, due to the recoil. It's been a constant issue since the aircraft was adopted. It's been tweaked, so it's not as bad as it used to be, but it still does it. The Army has learned to live with it.

Or at least that's what I got while listening to a conversation between my dad and an Apache pilot at an airshow.

Any Apache maintainers want to chime in here?

[NorthernExtreme]

I've been on military missions that if a small portion of the mission was put on film would have looked real bad. I suspect these people were followed to their present location and were fired upon due to something they had done earlier. This happens often when Spotters of Surveillance units follow enemy soldiers until Air support arrives to strike the unit, people, or equipment.

I'm not saying this is the case, but does explain how important it is to get all the facts. Emotion is a strong response to overcome and logic and fact often takes a back seat to the emotional response of watching people die. It also illustrates why we need to support our troops. I can guarantee the weapons officer who fired those rounds will live with that the rest of his life. Even though it was necessary, People still lost their life. War is He11, and those who fight it suffer wounds other than physical.

May God watch over them!

[schadenfreude]

He made it appear that America ,just out of meaness , dropped the bomb on innocent Japan.


That guy is a bung trout. They always miss the fine print like.....No Pearl Harbor=No Hiroshima

:rolleyes:

[makarov1]

I hope that the weapons officer sleeps like a log, and he should. The targets were attempting to revive a torturing, murderous, despotic regime, and the fact that they died a violent death, as violent as it was, makes Iraq that much better off. I'm sure the mothers of the Iraqi's that were gunned down have cried in anguish for many days and nights at the loss of their own flesh and blood. They have no one else to blame but their sons. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Telperion]

Sounds like it was a good shoot. Still, the clip makes me glad civilian control of the military is the rule of law in this country, not the other way around.

[P95Carry]

Have they taken that file off now? No joy trying to access the URL or even ''save target'' ..... anyone?

[Hkmp5sd]

Use the link from schadenfreude. He is hosting a copy.

[Nightfall]

ABC news is showing this clip, harping on the "Rules of Engagement". According to them, it is "disturbing."

*** should they do? Shoot "Let's make up" cards at them and hope they decide not to shoot that RPG? Oh, and I must be some sort of sicko, because I wasn't disturbed at all by American service men shooting armed Iraqi fighters working to reinstall a dictatorial gov't that's done things that would make this look like a nice day at the park.

On a happier note, could I get one of these if the MG ban went away? :D

[artherd]

Scary as hell, but appears justified.

The RPG they had could have blown the helicopter, and both our guys in it, clean to next week. Hell, it was close to justified even if we weren't at war (all they'd have to do was point it at the Apache, or otherwise prepare to fire, and it would be clean self-defence.)

Only thing that concerned me was the first burst that went off-camera (improperly ranged for co-axial bore-sight?)

[ZekeLuvs1911]

If they were armed or getting rid of weapons that was going to be used against our troops, then good riddance! As many have said, you weren't there and you didn't see the whole thing so keep your judgements to yourself until you get the full facts.

[c_yeager]

He doesn't seem to pose a direct threat to the attacking chopper crew.

Even if this were true (it has become apparent that it may not be) the fact is that in WAR the whole shooting only in self defense idea doesnt make any sense. You kill the enemy because he will eventually kill you. If we operated only on an imediate self defense method then the entire IDEA of artillery would be absurd.

As far as finishing off the wounded man i cant BELIEVE that anyone would have an issue with that. Did you see how the guy was flopping around? He just got tagged by a 30mm antitank round. Do you really think he was going to make it? Thank god it wasnt a daylight color film. You could have seen that guy flopping around with various pieces hanging by a thread. When i saw him wounded on the clip i was saying to myself (oh God, please have the decency to finish him off now). Judging by the urgency with which the pilot instructed the gunner to shoot him i imagine he was thinking the very same thing. Its a concept of honor that is maybe going out of fashion but, in my book if you have a terminally wounded enemy suffering in the field you at least do him the decency of ending his suffering.

Considering that it is obviously a nighttime thermal image it never even occured to me that these guys were out conducting routine farm maintinence. Leave it to the media to butcher the relevant part of the clip.

[Pylon]

My God, talk about being at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'll bet those guys didn't even know that was coming for them.

And i just thought of something. If only that last guy didn't start coming out of the truck, i think they might have left him alone since the instructor seemed to be looking for movement?

Regardless, damn man, just damn....


-Pylon

[OEF_VET]

That video reminds me of another piece of Apache gun camera footage I saw first hand.

Place: Kandahar, Afghanistan
Time: early March, 2002
A local Afghan military force patrol hit an AT (anti-tank) mine while on routine patrol on a route that was regularly driven on, including earlier that very day, with no previous minestrikes. We sent an Apache out to investigate and called for a Predator UAV to be diverted to our AO. We also attempted to gain 'eyes-on' with our perimeter forces. The Apache crew found two men walking thru a field, one carrying a shovel, the other carrying what is unmistakebly an AT mine. The crew watched as these two yahoos buried the mine in a corner of a garden plot. My guess is that they were sucessful with one mine, so they intended to keep the second one for future use. Watching the footage, you can see that whenever the Afghanis thought the Apache was nearby, they'd hide (or so they thought). We also had our Canadian comrades watching from the perimeter, and they sent an Infantry squad out to intercept these guys. It was going to take some time, and the sun was beginning to come up. The Canadian commander authorized his gunners to fire near the Afghanis, in order to pin them down, which it did. Unfortunately, the gunfire brought the civilians outside to investigate, and the two mine-layers got away with the crowd.

The important lesson is that we never shot these two guys, even though we had ample suspicion of their nefarious deeds. I'm certain the pilots in this footage had plenty of cause to engage the Iraqis.

The above mission in Afghanistan was also my one opportunity to fire a mortar mission in combat, when I called for several 81mm Illumination rounds to be fired towards the mine-layers' position.

[Grey54956]

I'm not shouting baby-killer or anything like that...

I didn't see the whole clip, so I was not aware that they were armed. If they were armed, then engagement would be justified.

However, my gripe is with the final volley of fire directed at the man crawling out from beneath the damaged and burning truck. This man appears rather wounded/shocked. Firing on him again constitutes an execution of a wounded combatant, which as best I can tell is in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.

We are outraged when we hear about US soldiers being wounded and executed or captured and executed. When it happens, we immediately cry 'war crime'. Well, guess what, it works both ways.

[kernal_panic]

you're right the smallest weapon the apache carries is the 30mm. incedently it fires the same 30 mm cannon round that GAU/8 avenger cannon on the A-10 attack plane. it just has one barrel though. they could have used even more firepower like the 2.75 inch folding fin areial rockets.

[c_yeager]

So your suggestion is that its all fun until someone gets hurt? This is war you know, its not some kind of game where you call uncle and then go home. Shooting an enemy soldier in the field is most certainly not a war crime despite what the liberal media may tell you. Now if the fellow had thrown up his arms and said "i surrender" then yeah they dont shoot him. What you see here is the reality of war. If you find it distastefull (i do) then your normal. This is why people dont LIKE war. Its a bad bad thing. The whole idea behind it is to kill them before they kill you. The fact is that these guys DECIDED to fight. Running away is not surrendering. Hiding, is not surrendering. Being wounded, is not surrendering. This guy had his chance to surrender when we conquered his country. He could have laid down his weapons at ANY TIME after that point and been just fine but, he didnt. And even up till his last minutes of life he NEVER put up his hands and gave up. Is it our fault that we are simply better at this than they are? Should we have all our soldiers trade in their body armor and fight with one hand tied behind their back? Would that make things fair?

[Sean Smith]

However, my gripe is with the final volley of fire directed at the man crawling out from beneath the damaged and burning truck. This man appears rather wounded/shocked. Firing on him again constitutes an execution of a wounded combatant, which as best I can tell is in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Best as I can tell you never read the Geneva Conventions. Or have any grasp what combat is like. Or understand how stunningly stupid it is for some sissy behind a keyboard to second-guess people fighting a damn war.

:rolleyes:

[Marko Kloos]

incedently it fires the same 30 mm cannon round that GAU/8 avenger cannon on the A-10 attack plane.

That is incorrect.

The Apache's 30mm McDonnell Douglas M230 chain gun fires M789 High-Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP), cross-compatible with French DEFA and British ADEN 30mm ammo. The caliber of the Apache's chain gun is 30x113mm.

The A-10's General Electric GAU-8/A gun fires 30mm PGU-13/B High-Explosive Incendiary (HEI), or PGU-14/B Armor-Piercing Incendiary (API) ammunition. The caliber of the GAU-8/A is 30x173mm.

[OF]

It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

There's a handful of scumbags who won't get a chance to cheer while people get stuffed feet first into wood chippers ever again.

Ba'athist slimes with half a brain got to live when we rolled into town. Darwin is taking the rest of these morons out with a little help from the US.

- Gabe

[Hkmp5sd]

Actually, there are 4 parts to the Geneva Convention.

The first is The Red Cross movement written at the first convention in 1864 to protect wounded soldiers and medics during war.

In 1907, the second convention extended the protection to armed forces at sea and to all shipwreck victims.

Part three in 1929 covered the handling of prisoners of war.

In 1949, they added a portion on the rights of civilians during a war. These were expanded and the other parts were amended in 1977.

The US signed and ratified all parts of the Geneva Convention except for Protocol 1: Additional to the Geneva Conventions, 1977 (http://www.deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm) . This means the US does not have to follow the "current" version of the convention. We abide by the 1949 version.

[Kobun]

One can't pass judgement by only seeing a video.
What if the men had assulted some other forces earlier, that didn't have video capabilities, and called inn for close air support?
So the Apache comes in and takes them out.
That is the whole point of comunication in the military. When you need help you call for it from others, even those that arn't there to begin with.

As for the last volley hitting the "wounded".
To me it looks like the last string of fire is directed at disabeling the pickup truck that is there.

[P95Carry]

Thx for the link Hkmp5sd ... I hadn't seen that info on what was my second page.

Kobun ... as others have commented, that last burst was not just the pickup - but included a wounded guy who had crawled out of the truck after previous burst. Almost inevitably severely wounded.

A sad fact but ... warfare is all about attrition .... and that in the end means taking out the enemy. This could easily have been a small independent group operating shoulder launched AA equipment - it is pretty certain this was carried out following good intelligence.

Brutal but effective.

[Grey54956]

Very true, Hk. However, I would like to point out that convention one prohibits the killing of wounded combatants. Since our signature is on said convention, we should abide by it.

Hmmm... Sean, Sean, Sean. Why are you so hostile and ignorant.

Best as I can tell you never read the Geneva Conventions. Or have any grasp what combat is like. Or understand how stunningly stupid it is for some sissy behind a keyboard to second-guess people fighting a damn war.

I am no sissy, and I am rather insulted. It's easy to try and smear me when you sit behind your own computer, isn't it. Something tells me that if we were to be discussing this in person, you would be more civil about it. Of course, you could be trying to compensate for your own mental/physical inadequacies by verbally attacking me, knowing full well you'll never have to walk the walk... ( Why is it that the phrase "Sir, I demand satisfaction" keeps rolling around in my head? :confused: )

I second guess the war, because it is my right to do so, and my right to voice my opinion. I second guess those people fighting a war because I am not certain of the reasons for that war, nor am I certain that I appreciate the manner in which it is being fought. I worry that one day, our country will descend into civil war once again, and that the lack of respect for enemy combatants currently shown to Iraqi insurgents shall one day be shown to our countrymen. The rules of war are there to keep us from turning to mindless violence and barbarism in times of conflict.

The US has always prided itself as being better than its adversaries, but I lose faith when I see video like this. Is it wrong to be disgusted to find that we treat people no better than those we fight? I think not. Is it wrong to hope that we can still be gallant, merciful, compassionate, or human? I hope not. Is it wrong to think that we should sometimes question the reason for killing our fellow man? I pray not. Otherwise, we are well and truly lost.

I don't care if the man crawling out from under the truck didn't put his hands up. I don't care if he never formally surrendered. He was shot, wounded, and then executed. The gunner watched as the man crawled out into the open, and then fired. The man was plainly and clearly executed.

I just hope that one day we are not on the wrong side of that 30mm chain gun.

Edit: It might be brutal but effective, but we would be outraged if we had been on the receiving end... It is true that war, by its nature, leads to casualties. However, it does not necesarily justify foul play.

[schadenfreude]

To the Complete Jerk that posted the link to the video hosted on my server on
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1055088/posts
- http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html
- http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php
- http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1055088/posts
- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php
- http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php
- http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp
- http://sigforum.com/6/ubb.x
- http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/wwwboard/index.cgi
- http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/showthread.php
- http://www.full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php
- http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
- http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php
- http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php
- http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi
- http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php
- http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp
- http://www.itshappening.com/showthread.php
- http://www.theisonews.com/forums/showthread.php
- http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php
- http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php


You cost me a ton of money in the 37 GIG's of bandwidth you spread around. I get charged for that.

I made decision to host a video for the people on this site and you made sure 20,000 people 20 different forums that I do not frequent, downloaded it.

Thanks a ton. :rolleyes:

[P95Carry]

schadenfreude - oh the wonders of the web!:rolleyes:

Hey ... how much are you outa pocket? I'll happily help you out ... seeing as a good many of us here benefitted from your generosity initially.

If you can take something thru PayPal ... PM me your info.

[schadenfreude]

Here are some of the exact posts and the offenders. I have an email in to the host to see what they can do for me. :( :( :(

I've been hosting videos on websites with 10X's this many users and no one has ever done this to me. I was really suprised it would happen someplace where everyone is so big on respect. I guess some still don't know how the internet and bandwidth work.

http://www.itshappening.com/showthread.php?threadid=25300&highlight=apache

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=88163&highlight=apache

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=426773&highlight=apache

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=89028&SearchTerms=apache

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212934&highlight=apache

http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127269&highlight=apache

http://sigforum.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=320601935&m=77160424&r=72460424#72460424

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=222905

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1055088/posts

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7185&highlight=apache

http://www.full-auto.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=001519#000016

[P95Carry]

schadenfreude .. I'd guess this has been an ''explosive'' chain reaction .... hard to know I guess whether anyone here ''took the link'' over to another board ...... coulda been a lurker and non-member too. The nature of the clip must have had quite a bit to do with that .. and then ... 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 512, 1024, etc ....... it mushrommed.

Sympathies ... seems a pity your altruism is repayed this way.

My offer still stands.

[Sportcat]

Next time you post something maybe you should add something like:

"Please do not pass this around - I pay for this"?

[BryanP]

It's only 4.5MB. We can email the file around to each other. Speaking of which, maybe someone could send it my way?

bporter ... @ ... runbox ... com

[MAKOwner]

It's up on www.movie-host.net as helicopter_kills.mpeg too... You can only stream it from there though unfortunately.

[schadenfreude]

coulda been a lurker and non-member too. The nature of the clip must have had quite a bit to do with that .. and then ... 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 512, 1024, etc ....... it mushrommed.

Sympathies ... seems a pity your altruism is repayed this way.

My offer still stands.


Yeah I wasn't trying to say it was only one person on this forum. Obviously it was several people from all over. I even found some websites featuring it on their site but hotlinking off my server.

In the end, I'm to blame. Shoulda put up a warning or not hosted it.

Live and learn

[JoeWang]

Sorry Shraden, next time in your link set up a code page that only retrieves the img for a given request link URL, ie only respond to requests from THR links. It will at least keep the noobs out of your bandwidth.

[cool45auto]

The media sucks. In the full length version one of the guys runs out into the field and throws an RPG down then another guy runs out and throws down a small weapon, pistol maybe, and they run back and act like everything's okay. The chopper guys confer back and forth with their superiors about what they're seeing before being told what to do about it.

As for me: Get some!

[444]

That is a real shame.
Especially since I never got to see it.
I agree, if you don't want someone to link to your site please make that known. I didn't have anything to do with this particular incident, but when I see something good I usually send the link to my friends (who I am sure send it to their friends.........) and have posted links on other boards. It never occured to me that there would be a problem since I am not all that computer savvy.
If anybody wants to send it to me, I would appreciate it.

[Sean Smith]

Of course, you could be trying to compensate for your own mental/physical inadequacies by verbally attacking me, knowing full well you'll never have to walk the walk...

If it makes you feel better to think so. Maybe you can come over and shine my old medals for me and we can talk about my "inadequacies"? ;)

schadenfreude: Sorry to hear you got hosed like that. :(

[schadenfreude]

So IS it against the rules to finish off a wounded combatant? Isn't that like a mercy killing?

[George Hill]

I don't think so. Especially given the aircrews view - How do they know he was wounded?

This is the bitter reality of war. There is nothing new here save the tools. Makes me wonder what these guys were doing. (Not having read all 5 pages of this thead) Looks like the vehilcle off to the left that got hit first was a gun. That thermal image shows a hot tube. Morter? Small cannon? Regardless... That was hot... the were shooting something. They got countered hard.
Lesson learned - Don't screw around with the USA.
That clip should be shown to every Taliban and every Terrorist. It should be aired on Iraq tv.
"THIS IS WHAT YOU WILL REAP!"

That said....
This video is chilling.

[Nightfall]

Grey, would it have been more humane to leave a man who has just been ripped up by 30mm rounds and who knows what shrapnel from the vehicle to lay there in immense pain to bleed out in the middle of some field? It's not like attack helicopters carry around medical personnel and equipment to baby every injured combatant they shoot.
I worry that one day, our country will descend into civil war once again, and that the lack of respect for enemy combatants currently shown to Iraqi insurgents shall one day be shown to our countrymen.
Do you honestly think that if there were a civil war in the US over the RKBA, it would be governed by the same rules of war as something like DW2? Do you seriously think a nation that would have reached the point where it is bringing the full might of it's military down on it's own citizens would still have your concerns in mind when they're hosing down rebellious civilians?

[Pheonix]

Is this video still available anywhere?

[OF]

That 'hot tube' appears to be the exhaust stack of a tractor they were using to help bury the cache.

- Gabe

[Grey54956]

Sorry to hear about your problems, Schadenfreude. I would be happy to make a small donation to your plight if you need it.

Well, I don't know if RKBA will be the lynch pin for a civil war. My guess is that if it happens, it will be after a long period of unrest with increasing inroads made against all civil rights (RKBA, Free speech, etc.). And I hope it never comes to that, so it is important that we write our congresspersons, vote, and strive for a society we can all live with.

In regards to whether it is against the rules to finish of a wounded combatant, you tell me how you interpret this:

<Geneva Convention I, Chapter I,> Article 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions: (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) taking of hostages; (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. (2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

"Hors de combat" is further clarified in Protocol I, Section III:

<Article> 2. A person is hors de combat if: (a) he is in the power of an adverse Party; (b) he clearly expresses an intention to surrender; or (c) he has been rendered unconscious or is otherwise incapacitated by wounds or sickness, and therefore is incapable of defending himself; provided that in any of these cases he abstains from any hostile act and does not attempt to escape.

Nowhere does it say in the convention that you may mercifully kill the grievously wounded. Everything I have read seems to point in the direction of collecting the wounded and providing them with medical attention. While the US may not have signed Protocol I, there is enough material in the three conventions that the meaning of "hors de combat" doesn't need to be clarified, but I guess people keep forgetting, so Protocol I makes specific mention...

There are some loopholes through which one could argue that shooting the wounded third man was justified, but this would require very loose interpretation of the rules, or, very detailed and immediate intel, namely an eye on the ground in close proximity to the three men. essentially, you would need someone to be there to visually confirm that they were spies/saboteurs, had no distinguising marks or identification as soldiers, or were luring the Apache into an ambush under perfidy (false surrender).

In addition, by throwing their weapons down (it is mentioned that they were discarded) it could be argued that these men may have been somewhat aware of their situation, and discarded their weaponry expecting the opportunity to surrender. Before you jump down my throat, I am not saying that this is what they were doing, merely that it could possibly be argued. Afterall, one of the first things you do when surrendering to someone whose got the drop on you is throw down your and move away from your weapon.

Sean, maybe you should dust off your medals and think about what they stand for. You fought for a great country with great ideas. It would be a shame to see our honorable heritage recklessly squandered, which is exactly what I worry we are doing when I see things like this. While I have been fortunate never to have been thrust into combat, it is not because I am unwilling to do so. If called upon, I will fight for my country, as others in my family have done in the past. Likewise, if called upon to defend integrity and honor of our country, I will do that as well. I see the willful execution of what may be a crime of war as an attack against our honor and integrity.

[JoeWang]

The video that was originally posted either displays murder to the quick-to-judge or draws reserved judgement from those who understand the nature of the media. It is in no way a positive video for the US armed forces to have released since so much may be taken out of context. The Palestinians, and recently the Iraqi insurgency thanks to the Hezbos are becoming masters of media manipulation. This is mostly thanks to the insatiable appetite of american broadcast networks for salacious primetime footage.

Also, please no macho-man Randy Savage lets take it out back crap. This is the high road, not your barracks in South Bend. Grow up, get laid, take it easy. Threats are just that.

[Sean Smith]

Sean, maybe you should dust off your medals and think about what they stand for.

Maybe you shouldn't presume to lecture me on the meaning of things you have NO experience with. ;)

Actually, anybody familiar with the Army's awards system knows that medals per se don't mean so much. People who deserve them don't get them, people who don't deserve them get them for just showing up, etc.

Also, please no macho-man Randy Savage lets take it out back crap. This is the high road, not your barracks in South Bend. Grow up, get laid, take it easy. Threats are just that.

I don't see any threats here. I certainly haven't made any, and don't intend to. I mean, why bother? If this stuff seems threatening, you need to get out more. :D

As for the "grow up"... :rolleyes:

I think I'll bow out from this discussion, since it seems rather pointless.

[Grey54956]

I don't see any threats here. I certainly haven't made any, and don't intend to. I mean, why bother?

I agree. There have'nt been any threats, simply a few rmarks about the difference between a discussion forum and face-to-face conversation, and an invitation to shine some medals. I see no threats. I agree with Sean on that.

The US networks should never get this type of footage, as they will invariably screw it up. That doesn't mean that there may not be some wrong-doing on the tape, but rather that they will edit and present it in the worst possible fashion. This in turn becomes prime propaganda footage for enemy sympathizers.

Whether the tape shows a possible violation of Geneva Convention may not be all that important in the long run. Winners seldom get charged with war crimes.

[NorthernExtreme]

Until an enemy combatant surrenders or clearly poses no threat to friendly forces they are a legal target.

The enemy soldier on the ground was making no (clear visible) effort to surrender, and could in no way be proven to be "no threat". He’s a legal target.

I totally agree the media screwed this up. And why did only part of the video make it to the internet? How come the part of them throwing weapons wasn't on the internet version?

[Grey54956]

While the third man wasn't obviously making any attempt to surrender, I doubt that he any further danger seeing as how he rolled out from under the wrecked truck and can be seen to collapse on the ground and lay motionless for several seconds before being hit by another volley of fire.

So, what you are saying, NorthernExtreme, is that if a man is wounded so badly that he cannot stand up due to being unconcious and so cannot blatantly surrender, he is still an immediate threat and must be neutralized. Or, perhaps if a man has his arms blown off, and can't use them to wave a white flag anymore, he is an obvious danger.

Disgusting.

[zahc]

So, you think they should have sent a crew out to pick the guy up in case he wasn't dead by the time they got there?

[Correia]

Closed for a decline in civility. i.e. this ain't going no where.