Is the Kel-Tek RFB Bullpup a reasonable survival rifle?

There's an excellent article on charlie6.org (http://charlie6.org/c6forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=52l) regarding the Kel-Tek RFB Bulllpup :what: and a poll on it as a survival rifle. Looks like an awesome weapon. What do you think - functional as a long term survival rifle?

Poll is here: http://charlie6.org/c6forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=52

Thanks for your input in advance.

No, it might break a part, and you will never be able to find one after SHTF.
I would reccomend an M1A, AR-15, or a Remington 700 in .308 or 30-06 with a good 1-4 scope that is accurate to 600 yards.
But get real. SHTF is mainly a fantasy that takes the fun out of buying guns.

*** is a survival rifle?

...survive what? Russians? Zombies? Government death squads?
No offense to the OP, but why do people always assume that IF there was some sort of shtf situation, it would mean that you need to have a gun to survive because of some kind of governmental collapse/every man for himself scenario?

Take your pick. Maybe it's a truck gun and your in the outback and break down. The actual senerio isn't as important as whether or not this is a functional fire arm to either defend yourself with, or provide sustenance with. Maybe you know how to fight your zombies with a sharpened stick - great! ... but for the person that has a choice in firearms is who I'm directing the question/poll towards. If you don't like it then fill the poll out accordingly. Fair enough? No skin off my teeth either way.

Thanks! (No offence taken.)

THR is very anti SHTF discussion, if you want to talk about SHTF i would go over to AR15.com, thats what I do when im in the mood for some SHTF talk

The question was designed with the impetus of a survival situation - no where in the original post was SHTF mentioned - this is the assumption of subsequent posters. If this is an inappropriate post, then let's msg a moderator and have it deleted. OK-fine by me.

Observation - geesh, ask a SIMPLE question and have some tensions mount. Good thing it wasn't about politics, religion, or sex.

The Kel-Tec RFB has not been available long enough to accurately gauge it's long term durability. It's still in "beta test" mode.
In addition, it is not readily avilable due to Kel-Tec's slow production scehdule.

In 7.62x51mm/.308 semi-auto rifle, you would be far better off with a...
semi-auto M14 variant
semi-auto FAL variant
semi-auto G3 variant
semi-auto AK variant
semi-auto AR10 variant
FN SCAR-17S

I'm sure it's a fine battle rifle, but terrible as a survival rifle. The main problem is that it's not chambered in 22LR. Any reasonable survival rifle will be in 22LR, IMO, or it's really a SHTF discussion. That may be what the other posters were thinking, but I can't speak for them.

If I were ever in the situation to need a survival rifle, I'd probably grab my Remington Nylon 66. YMMV
RT

Interesting. You don't elaborate other than to imply a 22LR is superior ... so the discussions regarding the 44Mag, AR15/10, and Remington 700 are likewise not worthy of consideration?

I agree with Red Tornado,,, unless you run into an angry polar bear on the alaskan slope. I carry a sidearm and a .22 rifle, that covers me well. Actually, if I'm gonna be out in the woods outside of hunting season, I don't really need the 22 ;)

What caliber and model pistol?

Survival implies feeding oneself. Anything over 22 is going to be too much for squirrels, rabbits, birds, snakes, rats(hey, it's survival) etc. One could make a good argument for a shotgun, but I'd still go 22LR for versatility as well as capacity of ammo that can be easily carried. YMMV

Hopefully it's all academic anyway. ;)
RT

I don't really care to have a survival rifle from a company that claims there barrels are only good for 6,000 rounds.

There are a lot better choices out there, but kel-tec does make some pretty neat stuff.

chemcat, whatever I have with me that day. In my case, in the woods, probably my XD 45, but I've inhearited a kel-tec P3AT that I can carry in my pocket so that one will probably be tagging along too. Not the best choice for a "survival" gun, I know, but I'm not out of cell phone coverage too often these days.

The inherent flaw with the RFB as a survival rifle is its forward-ejecting design. If a case splits and becomes lodged in the pipe, it can jam up the action, forcing you to disassemble the rifle and knock it out with a long rod which you may or may not have handy. Basically, spent cases inherently go places you cannot physically reach without tearing down the whole gun. The last thing I want to have to deal with in an emergency is a constipated rifle. :evil:

If you are talking about a case hanging up in the ejection chute then you are wrong about need any tools at all to clear it. the point of a bullet is enough to take down the rifle and the ejection chute is open then it is easily accesible to a finger to clear it.
A case seperation in any rifle barrel will be equally as bad in the field but that doesn't seem to be what you were talking about.

Survival: continuing to exist in a mobile and upright state during times when the individual is beyond the normally accepted reach of human infrastructure.

I.E., living out in the environment too far to reach civilization, whether by choice or circumstance. Nothing TEOTWAWKI at all, you break down crossing North Dakota in a blizzard, run off the road in the Ouachita Forest, or have your pack animals eaten by a herd of grizzlies who break your elk rifle.

All you have left is Rifle X and you have to keep living for a few weeks/months until the CAP/Sheriff/local drug growers stumble across your living carcass.

Big Hint: GI survival rifles for pilots were .410/22 over unders.

What you can shoot in abundance is small game - birds, rodents, squirrels, rabbits, woodchuck, duck, muskrat, etc. Much larger actually is a waste - it spoils faster than you can eat it, attracts aggressive predators, and can be difficult to process by hand.

A .22 gets the job done in a survival state, you can carry lots of ammo and it's not heavy. Single shots don't have cycling issues or jam, and conserve ammo. A small shotgun is equal, and for a nonproficient or injured shooter, a more sure shot.

A .308 bullpup battle rifle? Not. Consider the source, and then treat it appropriately. Again, what professionals have devised and preferred for decades longer has been a .22 or small gauge shotgun - and a 4" knife, an ax, and a container that can hold water. One serious consideration is that the individual may have a broken arm or leg - and shooting would be greatly impaired. A light .22 would be a far better choice than a 10 pound magazine fed bullpup. It's a one way range out there, the environment is the biggest enemy.

If we're getting away from SHTF and into basic living-off-the-land survival, here's my choice: Marlin Papoose (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/selfloading/70pss.asp)

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/images/zoom_70PSS.jpg

Mine's the old blued model with the red case, but there's nothing wrong with the current stainless model. It's discreet and non-threatening but still effective. With hypervelocity loads it can do plenty of damage up close, but you can also hand-feed and cycle low-power load right down to CBs for quiet hunting.

It's also more than adequate against two-legged predators, though perhaps not against zombies. ;-)

Eh I think its a cool looking rifle but I wasn't much for it when I read a review that said depending on how it was oriented (ie up down etc) it may immedately kick the brass out of the tube or it may be 2-3 shots before any come out and them multiple pieces may come out at one time. Thats the kinda thing that would give me the uneasy feelings. That and the barrel supposedly only being good for 6000 rounds.

Nah I'd go with something else in .308 or .30-06 if I wanted a higher power level.

hmm in that article on charlie6 it says the Kel-Tec RFB might be available in other calibers... Anyone know anything more about that?

Some of these posts make me laugh. I especially like the ones from the experts that never seen or fired one, but they know the weak points of the RFB. You don't need to worry about the chute...it ejects the brass fine...the RFB is a reloaders dream. It does not ding up brass.

For the guy that says "oh you won't find one after SHTF" I take it you are one of those guys that must have X parts to rebuild "1 mililon" of your guns??? If you need to use your weapon and you run out of ammo/mags and you break your rifle...I'm sure you can find a replacement ;) if you are still around.

ETA: I actually own an RFB, not like most of the people that have replied in this thread. OP I went with the RFB over other platforms...I've owned them all...HK91 (real not some clone), FALs, AR15s, AK47s, M1A, DPMS ("AR10"), Cetme...while all of them function, I wanted something compact with more power than say .223...I don't have a ton of rounds down the barrel...right now I'm at 230rds, but once I have 500+ rounds through the RFB, I will be using it as my primary.

I understand why some posted that they would want a 22LR...which is great for food gathering...I think the OP was talking more about using the RFB as a defensive weapon. There is no argument that the 22LR will probably be the only caliber you "need", but I'd rather have more than one tool in my tool box if I needed it in an emergency.

Yes, they are planning on a 5.56 version, it should be out around 2025.

I'd rather have an NEF handi-rifle in .22lr with a rugged 4x scope, a sling, and 500 rounds of ammo if we are talking about a real world survival rifle.
I don't see a military-style autoloader in .308 doing anything better in a realistic survival scenario. It and its ammo will be needlessly heavy. The round is overpowered and too destructive for the taking of small game which, as mentioned above, is your primary target. It has nothing to offer me, basically. I think I'd prefer the weight of the thing, its ammo, magazines, etc. in other equipment and no gun at all, if it really came down to it.

Nutnfancy has a couple of new vids with the RFB on YouTube. They're ok if you have a lot of time to watch guys BS for 10 minutes before shooting for 90 seconds.

+1 on a rifle chambered in the lowly 22LR as a survival rifle (note: NOT SHFT). Survival rifle means to me something one can gather food with and also defend oneself from two legged predators with. I personally would pick a 10/22 or a 60 with a brick of ammo in Ziplock bags. For large 4 legged predators, there's always bear spray.

The RFB is a battle rifle and an unproven one at that. I'd take an AK that rattles over a RFB any day as a battle rifle and this is coming from a Kel-Tec fanboy.

I'm sure it's a fine battle rifle, but terrible as a survival rifle. The main problem is that it's not chambered in 22LR. Any reasonable survival rifle will be in 22LR, IMO, or it's really a SHTF discussion.That's very true, and I'd be willing to swap my Glenfield 60 to anyone for their RFB just to prove that out. All in the interest of education.

Oh come on. What the heck is with everyone and .22LR "survival rifles"? If you want to survive, you want something that can bring down big game as well as small. You want to be able to take whatever you can get. And .308 is ideal for that. It's almost the perfect caliber. Some may go for .223, but really, .308 is excellent.

Have you ever shot a squirrel with a .308?

What squirrel? :evil:

Yeah, exactly. What squirrel? It's cute, for certain really narrow definitions of cute, to blow up a squirrel when you are going to go home for dinner. When that squirrel means the difference between eating or going hungry, not so much. Small game is more plentiful than large game. Full stop. The time you spend trying to bag a deer is time that could be spent_after you already shot a couple smaller critters_improving your situation in other ways. It was mentioned upthread, and it is true, that bringing down that elk is counter-productive in some ways. Most of it will rot before you can eat it. It will draw predators (i.e. Br'er Bear). It is labor intensive.
I'd rather have some fishing gear, some snares, a really good knife, fire starting materials, some signalling devices, etc. than that .308 bullpup if the situation is keeping myself fed and alive 'til I am found or hike my way out. Push comes to shove, you can feed yourself on creepie crawlies (which are easier to gag down when cooked BTW). If we are going to insist on spinning out into SHTF wankery, that is the best choice. Shots draw unwanted attention.
If you want an RFB just because, that's enough reason right there. You don't need to justify it as something it isn't.

Lots of good reply's. My original thought is if you needed a gun that is all round suitable - does the Kel-Tec fill the bill? While I like the idea of a 22LR, granted it would increase the odds when going after small game, I would think that a sling shot would fit that bill reasonably well when taking small game also. After all, a person shouldn't run out of rocks.

The 22LR, while it's capable of being a deer/man killer, isn't going to do so effectively when shooting center of mass. Maybe I should have had the gun rated 1 to 5 based on compactness, weight, amount of ammo that can be reasonably carried, lethality, etc.

Thanks again for the input!

At least with the .308 the squirrel would skin itself.

As for the RFB, what I said earlier sums up my views: due to its unique ejection system, if a casing splits and gets hung up in the tube you're screwed because you have to disassemble the rifle and force it out with a dowel of some sort. You'll literally have a constipated rifle.

If you want a semi-auto .308, go with something more traditional such as a FAL, CETME, AR-10, or Saiga .308. Things designed to be battle rifles where you can clear stoppages in the field. A converted Saiga .308 would honestly be ideal, as long as you have enough magazines for it. It's lightweight, compact, reliable, and handy. It's also easily scoped with a quick-detachable mount.

Have you ever shot a squirrel with a .308?
No. But when I was a kid, I shot a rabbit with a .30-06.:eek: A .22 would have been much more suitable.

As for the RFB, what I said earlier sums up my views: due to its unique ejection system, if a casing splits and gets hung up in the tube you're screwed because you have to disassemble the rifle and force it out with a dowel of some sort. You'll literally have a constipated rifle.

I still disagree with this statement; if the case ectracts from the chamber it should go through the chute because it is larger than the chamber. Why would it hang up? I own an RFB and I just don't see this happening, I think it is a make believe senario that just isn't going to happen in reality. The RFB has no track record of an issue like this.

While I wouldn't really choose my RFB as my survival rifle this would not be a reasonable excuse for it. You could make up any reason for any rifle like I would not choose an AR because if the gas block came loose it wouldn't cycle. Maybe we could say I wouldn't choose my 1022 because the firing pin could break and it wouldn't shoot anymore.

I have an RFB but as stated before, there is not enough experience with them yet to determine long term reliability. If I were in a survival situation that required a .308 power cartridge, I would take the M1A instead because of it's excellent track record.

That said, the RFB is a game changer. Pick one up and handle it and you'll be wanting one.

I've yet to see any information about how the RFBs hold up to high round counts and rough handling.

Perhaps if there were some serious shooters running them through carbine courses or at some of the bigger 3 gun matches, there would be more information on how the guns actually hold up.

Well, I wouldn't choose a 10/22 because the darn things are inaccurate and it costs more to accurize them than the rifle is worth in the first place. And yes, I own a scoped 10/22, and haven't shot it in years for this reason. I just can't justify spending more money than I just did on my fine Mauser to totally rework a .22. Though from a pure survival rifle standpoint, if you've spent this money, it's a fine rifle. If I had to choose a .22, though, I'd choose a Savage bolt gun.

For the survival stand-point, some one pointed out that a 22/410 was a great choice. I did some googling and came back to a thread here that mentioned a 22/20. Its the Savage 24c. I can't imagine anything in NA short of bear or buffalo that a 20ga slug at range couldn't kill. Also, you have shot for birds, and a 22 for varmints & small game. Gunbroker lists them for about $600.

If were talking SHTF, I'd suggest a black-powder rifle, pistol, & shotgun. The raw materials for blackpowder can be made from human urine & the fire used to boil the urine. Not the best stuff in the world, but if the CSA was able to make BP for its army that way, not a bad choice in a limited supply situation. If you happen to run across a salt peter deposit, even better. Lead can be easily smelted from its ore and cast into round balls or conicals in crude sand molds with little effort. Shot for the shotgun can be anything you pack into the barrel.

In a SHTF scenairo, I'd relocate to the Ozarks. Lead ore & salt peter are abundant if you know where to look. Theres plenty of game, springs, & cover to make life bearable. And my guns would be something out the Old West with emphasis given to portability & reliability:

Bow & Arrow (can be made from anything), 1862 Richmond-Sharps Carbine, double barrel 8ga, and a Colt SAA. Take the fat from animals you slaughter and use it to grease you guns. Not the best, but effective.

great topic for a sticky. Be it meteor or terrorist electromagnetic pulse the short time MONTHS the shelves are clear if your worried about it you prob. have all you need. If your reading this site your good. My 2 cents 12 ga. that can shoot -slug- buck -bird shot will cover it all but long range big game

For the survival stand-point, some one pointed out that a 22/410 was a great choice. I did some googling and came back to a thread here that mentioned a 22/20. Its the Savage 24c. I can't imagine anything in NA short of bear or buffalo that a 20ga slug at range couldn't kill. Also, you have shot for birds, and a 22 for varmints & small game. Gunbroker lists them for about $600.

If were talking SHTF, I'd suggest a black-powder rifle, pistol, & shotgun. The raw materials for blackpowder can be made from human urine & the fire used to boil the urine. Not the best stuff in the world, but if the CSA was able to make BP for its army that way, not a bad choice in a limited supply situation. If you happen to run across a salt peter deposit, even better. Lead can be easily smelted from its ore and cast into round balls or conicals in crude sand molds with little effort. Shot for the shotgun can be anything you pack into the barrel.

In a SHTF scenairo, I'd relocate to the Ozarks. Lead ore & salt peter are abundant if you know where to look. Theres plenty of game, springs, & cover to make life bearable. And my guns would be something out the Old West with emphasis given to portability & reliability:

Bow & Arrow (can be made from anything), 1862 Richmond-Sharps Carbine, double barrel 8ga, and a Colt SAA. Take the fat from animals you slaughter and use it to grease you guns. Not the best, but effective.


The problem with that point of view is that it takes far more effort and capacity to transport, manufacture, and utilize large amounts of these components than cartridges. You could have so many more cartridges in lieu of doing it this way that it's not even funny. And the supplies for black powder are not nearly as common these days as cartridges. You're also federally limited to 50 pounds of black powder without an explosives license and special storage requirements, so stockpiling is out of the question. Also, black powder firearms are DIRTY and require constant cleaning so as not to rust (black powder is corrosive), far more so than smokeless powder. The cleaning supplies will also consume resources. You're basically looking at nightmare logistics required to acquire, transport, and maintain the resources for a black powder firearm in comparison to a cartridge-based firearm.

Basically, large amounts of ready-made cartridges, and even reloading components, make far more sense than a black powder firearm. A bow and arrow also makes good sense.

Fact of the matter is, any such situation is not going to last long enough to completely devolve society back to the Old West days. There will always be foreign importers even if local manufacturing is completely wiped out. Sooner or later the conflict will be over and supplies will be available once again, and if you have plenty of ammo and other supplies you can outlast the shortage. Just don't bring a musket to an assault rifle or hunting rifle fight. You have one shot. He has many.

The RFB has no track record...

I think this is the problem with most here. I've handled the RFB and am in love with it. I still want to wait to see how it pans out on the range and in the field, but if you like a bullpup, this is a very good option.

Like many, if I was concerned about two-leg or larger four-leg threats, the .30-cal would be a top choice. Honestly though, I really like the .223 as a "survival" cartridge in the lower 48. It really can do just about everything in realistic combat ranges and most hunting scenarios minus the larger black/brown bear, elk or moose.

A decent .308 matched with an accurate .22LR pistol would be a good combo for small/large game, but you're also forgetting a good shotgun (20/12 gauge) for even a larger range of options...

ROCK6

Fact of the matter is, any such situation is not going to last long enough to completely devolve society back to the Old West days. There will always be foreign importers even if local manufacturing is completely wiped out. Sooner or later the conflict will be over and supplies will be available once again, and if you have plenty of ammo and other supplies you can outlast the shortage. Just don't bring a musket to an assault rifle or hunting rifle fight. You have one shot. He has many.

Good point Warden, I hadn't quite thought of it that way. Also, I have no illusions of getting into a running gun fight with a single shot or 4 shot rifle when facing off against a guy wielding an assault rifle. Range & accuracy do count for something, but not as much as the fire superiority of an assault rifle.

I also agree on using a more proven design. There are enough 7.62x51 versions of military rifles around that there is no need to rely on an experimental civilian rifle.

I think we can all agree that a black powder firearm is far less a viable option than simply stockpiling large amounts of cartridges. In the extreme longterm, yes, a black powder firearm may be barely usable by materials you gather yourself, but without commercial supplies you're not even going to be able to sustain yourself through hunting with it. And any commercial suppliers will be more interested in cartridges.

I love the RFB, I'd love to have one. I just dunno about the .308 recoil...hmmm :-\

I love the RFB, I'd love to have one. I just dunno about the .308 recoil...hmmm :-\
The recoil on the RFB is mild compared to other 308 semi autos...and this is with the supplied A2 FH...get something better like the PWS FSC30 or the BattleComp and you won't have any issues.

If you ever shot an FAL...the RFB is much different. The RFB is easy to shoot.

Wow and while your shooting at all the birds and squirrels with your 22 you will ruin any chance you had at getting anything bigger like a deer. Guess it all depends on the situation and location. Killing the deer would indeed be pretty pointless without a way to preserve it and transport it if you must remain mobile. Surviving plane bailout/ejection in the woods a 22/410 survival gun should be just fine. Pack a variety of ammo for the shotgun barrel.

Come to think of it i'd just as soon have a small 410 shotgun and a variety of ammo if I wanted something highly versatile and light weight to pack around.

Other combo's come to mind for shotgun/rifle combo guns. a .308/12gauge seems like it could pack a bigger punch if thats what you really needed.

As far as a combatish survival rifle, I'd have to own and shoot the Kel-Tek RFB a while before I decided.

On a final note I must say I have never shot a squirrel with a .308 or even a 22, always used the shotgun. But something akin to shooting one with a .308 would be removing the tree rats from my walnut trees with 3 inch mag 00 buckshot loads. Hiding behind the limb isn't much of an option for a squirrel in that situation.

Survival in a military/special police operation?...maybe.
Everything else? No.
...if you were Robinson Crusoe would probably want a Mossberg or Remington pump with lots of bird, buck shot and slug loads. That will give you the best balance between reliability, durability, susteanibility, protection and secure food from small birds to big game.
Think!!!
http://www.survival-gear-guide.com/Survival-Rifles.html

There IS a Valmet over / under 12 gauge / .308. If I had to choose 1 long gun, that would probably be it. That's really the finest combination you could ever ask for.

it is a great rifle, but .308 is heavy to lug around.

Plus, there are no iron sights. So just in case your scope fails, you may have a problem.

Not like you can't get rail-mounted iron sights for it. Yeah, it'd be a short sight picture, but it'd certainly work fine.

With the talk about the ban on Saiga 12 ga. Wouldn't be surprised if this tactical bullpup shotgun is next.
JT

re: Surviving a Military/Special Police situation - I'm gonna go closer to "no". Two words - Trained Snipers. Two more: Well Practiced.
Does the name Michael Alan Silka ring a bell?

As for the RFB - a very innovative SPORTING rifle. It's tacticool, but it's inherent design lends itself to higher maintenance, and risks on a battlefield/survival situation you would otherwise not want. The ejection shoot is not powered. If you get a dud in combat, you want that dud OUT of your gun. If you're shooting uphill, the unpowered ejection chute may not be able to get a slow-burn round out before it goes off, inside your chute.
Secondly, it's a heavy gun. Granted, it's pretty, I like the bullpup, and with appropriate funding, I'd own one. However, I'd take a lightweight combination gun, a Ruger MK II/Single Six, or a rifle of same caliber out for a survival situation. Also, the RFB has many exposed metal parts, as it's made in a machine-shop that doesn't boast the all-weather coatings Steyr or MSAR, as examples, can put on.
Opening up a .308 vs .22LR for a survival CALIBER has been done, 100's of times, and about 70% of the time gets shut down due to circular arguments, or the usual reasons any "survival" oriented thread gets shut down on here - if you want a post-apoc situation, move to Siberia. ;)

I would reccomend an M1A, AR-15, or a Remington 700

you would be far better off with a...
semi-auto M14 variant
semi-auto FAL variant
semi-auto G3 variant
semi-auto AK variant
semi-auto AR10 variant
FN SCAR-17S

Yea... because everyone buys and stockpiles spare parts for their guns, that they will be willing to barter with strangers, and SCAR parts practically litter the streets these days. :rolleyes:

Some of you are kidding yourselves - spare parts for ANY gun are hard to find outside of official company channels even NOW.

Any gun at all will be acceptable, because when it breaks you are probably going to have to find a new gun anyway. The only real way around that is to buy multiple identical guns yourself, so when one breaks you can turn it into a parts gun.

Much larger actually is a waste - it spoils faster than you can eat it, attracts aggressive predators, and can be difficult to process by hand.

No joke!

Funny how nobody ever includes things like food containers, processing utensils, or cookware in their B.O.B or car kit.... yet they think 1,000 rounds of 308 and an M14 are ESSENTIALS. :banghead:

What happens after you shoot a deer with your 308 and gorge yourself? 80% of your kill goes to waste and attracts scavengers...

What happens when you have to take a monster dump from all that meat you scarfed down? You are going to need to wipe your butt somehow hot-shot. What kinds of toiletries have you packed in your "go bag", and how do you plan to keep clean after your roll of Charmin is gone? ;)

The complete systemic lack of answers to these simple life-sustaining questions are why I consider SHTF and "bug out" scenarios to be nothing more than masturbatory fantasies.

Here's an interesting fact to add to the 'pot'. In the villages up here where people depend on hunting and fishing to feed themselves day to day the most common hunting caliber is the .223 and the most common gun is the Ruger Mini 14. There's a joke that goes "The animals get bigger and tougher the closer you get to Anchorage, so you need a bigger gun".

The truth is that the Native people don't have a "one shot-one kill" ethic, they have a "whatever is best for survival" ethic. So, if you need to put five rounds into a caribou the holes are small and not much meat is destroyed. And yes, they also use .223 on big bear.

With the talk about the ban on Saiga 12 ga. Wouldn't be surprised if this tactical bullpup shotgun is next.
JT
1. There is little CONFIRMED talk of the saiga being banned. It seems highly unlikely.
2. The Saiga is an imported shotgun. The Kel-Tec is made in the US.
3. The Saiga is a Semi-automatic magazine fed shotgun capable of accepting high-cap drums. The Kel-Tec is a pump action fed from two tubes.

They are not alike at all really.

A saiga .308 converted with a red star trigger will land you 1 moa, with AK reliability how can you go wrong?

Also if your concerned about spare parts, the saiga .308 converted shares a whole lot of parts with the other AK clones. Which we all know are getting progressively more common.

The price is going to land you around $200-$500 less than the kel tec RFB and you'll have a gun system that has been battle proven for over 60 years.

However for survival, I would choose a .22. Carry 1000 rounds and still not weigh as much a 200 .308. Which means more other neccessities such as the TP.


Or for a little heavier a 7.62x39 or 5.56x45. Both in ak's.

I love AR platforms, but for SHTF guns they have a tendency to need heavy maitenance. Last thing I need

re: Surviving a Military/Special Police situation - I'm gonna go closer to "no". Two words - Trained Snipers. Two more: Well Practiced.
Does the name Michael Alan Silka ring a bell?

As for the RFB - a very innovative SPORTING rifle. It's tacticool, but it's inherent design lends itself to higher maintenance, and risks on a battlefield/survival situation you would otherwise not want. The ejection shoot is not powered. If you get a dud in combat, you want that dud OUT of your gun. If you're shooting uphill, the unpowered ejection chute may not be able to get a slow-burn round out before it goes off, inside your chute.
Secondly, it's a heavy gun. Granted, it's pretty, I like the bullpup, and with appropriate funding, I'd own one. However, I'd take a lightweight combination gun, a Ruger MK II/Single Six, or a rifle of same caliber out for a survival situation. Also, the RFB has many exposed metal parts, as it's made in a machine-shop that doesn't boast the all-weather coatings Steyr or MSAR, as examples, can put on.
Opening up a .308 vs .22LR for a survival CALIBER has been done, 100's of times, and about 70% of the time gets shut down due to circular arguments, or the usual reasons any "survival" oriented thread gets shut down on here - if you want a post-apoc situation, move to Siberia. ;)
Ok, you are wrong on a few points...the RFB isn't light, but it's not as heavy as the DPMS 308LR, M1A, HK91s that I have owned...it has great balance compared to the other 308 rifles.

The brass that ejects spits out the brass through the chute.

The finish in the RFB is parkerized...not many better factory finishes being offered, but keep on passing along false information if you would like, since you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to the RFB.

Since it's getting circular, has anybody actually tested the RFB with a failure to fire? Either with a dud round or even a snap cap to see if a loaded shell ejects with no problem? I've seen arguments for and against, but not even anecdotal evidence. Anyone?
RT

The complete systemic lack of answers to these simple life-sustaining questions are why I consider SHTF and "bug out" scenarios to be nothing more than masturbatory fantasies.

I love it!!! Tell us how you really feel!:D

Since it's getting circular, has anybody actually tested the RFB with a failure to fire? Either with a dud round or even a snap cap to see if a loaded shell ejects with no problem? I've seen arguments for and against, but not even anecdotal evidence. Anyone?
RT

Yes they fall right on out with no problem. RFB owner and have tried it!

Generally, a thread should stay with one subject--or in the case of survival, one scenario. The big problem with all these threads is that there is no "One size fits all" to them. Survival for food is not the same as survival of civil strife or survival against some group of bad guys in a wilderness situation.

Give a little thought to all this before jumping into the next such thread. This one is done.