Kel Tec pf9 vs Kahr cm9


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unknown88
April 3, 2011, 06:41 PM
HEY GUYS
i have been looking at these two pistols for Everyday carry and would like two know if anyone can give a reason why to get the Kahr over the Kel Tec thanks

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Joe Demko
April 3, 2011, 06:42 PM
My PF9 required a 14-week trip back to the factory.

okc-zee
April 3, 2011, 07:15 PM
I own and carried a PF9 for the past year...Last week at the range it started dropping the mags (again)....Right before that the slide locked open while firing...I had to unload and break the gun down to finally get it closed...Checked it out and had a range guy look at it as well...Next mag it locked open again,couldn't get it closed...I sent it back to KT 2 days later...I clean and strip my guns after each trip to the range...I have I'd say at least a thousand rounds thru it...I shoot a couple of mags thru it each trip to the range...When I first got it, it dropped the mags so KT sent a new mag catch and spring...gun was flawless after that..until now...KT customer service is second to none...However,long story short,when it comes back from KT it's going in the safe,for good...I won't sell someone a gun that has failed on me,so I'll eat it...I just bought a Kahr CM9 last week and will have it Tuesday...until then,I'm back to CC my LCP..After I break in the Kahr I will CC it...I understand anything can happen to any gun at any time...However,that being said,as much as I liked my PF9,no more Kel Tecs for me...just my .02

wally
April 3, 2011, 08:01 PM
Here is a thread with a lot of photos comparing the PF-9, CW9 and PM40:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=316342

The CM9 should be about the same size as the PM40.

gbelleh
April 3, 2011, 09:53 PM
I have a PF-9 and a PM9. I've shot and carried both of them pretty extensively. Neither one has had any problems. I really like all my Kel-Tecs, but I would say the Kahr has the edge in quality of materials and fit & finish, but they both make great carry guns. I also find the Kahr much easier to shoot well.

Sig88
April 4, 2011, 08:05 AM
I tried to give the KT PF9 two chances but each time I was disappointed. Each time I shot the PF9 the magazine would pop out. Tried two different guns, many different magazines and an assortment of grips with the same conclusion. I traded it in and put money down on another pistol. I have never shot a Kahr but would recommend looking for a different option than a PF9.

unknown88
April 4, 2011, 09:09 AM
thanks guys yes it would be a edc guy so the ability to conceal each is important for a ccw what might be better to carry?? thanks

hardluk1
April 4, 2011, 10:29 AM
You could buy either one and get a lemon. Most don't realize than KT builds and sells a very high number of pistols a year . They were 4th last year in sales. With those kind of number something bad will slip thru. Kahr also has had some problems with there production lines. I don't have a cm-p but reather a cw=9 and the kt pf-9. Both are good pistols but not as many rounds shot out of the kahr yet. The pf-9 of mine has been 100% and his many times the round count fired and is my everday go to pistol. Not as much fun to shoot but carry's better and for me that is in my front pocket. KT probably has the best CS of all but ruger if needed and if the pistol was new they will express it through CS. In todays market you can buy a 2000 dollar custom that will not run out of the box so does that make it junk too. Go over to KTOG forum for kt and ask around about them and try to do the same for kahr if there is a place for them. Oh you should be able to buy a KT for around 240 dollars at a decent dealer today.

camsdaddy
April 4, 2011, 11:07 AM
I bought a tan PF9 on Sat. I took it straight from the store to the range. I had a few failure to ejects and I was a little concerned. I also was shooting to the left. I figure it was my grip and trigger finger. I came home and cleaned the factory goo out and made sure everything was smooth. I also moved the rear sitr over a hair. Went and shot this morning ran two boxes and wow. There was no center to the target at 7yrds and 10 yrds was awesome. I shoot it better than my Glock 26 and it fits in my pocket

Sharkbait08
April 4, 2011, 01:05 PM
I personally shoot/carry the PF-9 in stainless with OD grip. I've put somewhere between 1.5-2k rounds through it in the last year. I have not had any malfunctions what-so-ever. When I first bought my Kel-Tec P3AT i heard alot of grumbles about Kel-Tec quality. While the gun may be a bit rough around the edges, I have not personally had any issues with either gun. One of my buddies had a first gen 3AT that went back to the factory. 3 weeks later he had a brand new 3AT fresh off the line and hasn't had any problems since. Gotta love that type of Customer Service...

I'm not saying anything against the Kahr. To me, it's all about which one feels better in your grip. Stangely, I will shoot my PF-9 better than my SIG P250 better 9 out of 10 days, even though recoil is less on the 250. Go figure...

psyshack
April 4, 2011, 09:46 PM
I have a PF-9 and like it a lot. Hoestly I've lost count on the rounds through it. Well over 7k. I have shot the ever loving crap out of mine.

I cracked the slide at the 5k round mark. I take all the blame. I shot a steady diet of my very stout reloads through it. I told KT about it and asked for the price of a slide. They were very nice and replaced it. I also had the frankin screw issue. Blue Loctite fixed that. Mine did wear out the mag followers. KT replaced those also. I have a mod to fix that issue. And it does not include the follower. Never had the mag drop issue. I did install the newest mag release, just cause they sent it to me.

You can find my PF-9 videos here.
http://www.youtube.com/user/psyshack1?feature=mhum

I like my PF-9. And it runs 100%!!!!!

mongo4567
April 5, 2011, 02:23 AM
I have a PF9 and a PM40. They have both been 100% and I trust them equally. I would give the Kahr the nod for fit, finish, and superior double action trigger....but it cost a lot more.

camsdaddy
August 1, 2011, 12:02 PM
I just thought I would reserect this thread. I late sold my PF9 for no reason. I am debating buying it back but if there is great reason to buy the CM9 now that they have been out a bit I may consider as well.

possum
August 1, 2011, 03:11 PM
I have owned Kahr and I still have my kel tec If that tells you anything. Kahr has gotten greedy with how much they want for their guns as of late. i can get a perfectly reliable, accurate, easy to carry gun, and actually easy to shoot accurately with the PF-9 that won't break the bank. So for me it is a value thing. It meets the requirements and is less than a Kahr, why not go with the PF-9.

Scimmia
August 1, 2011, 03:27 PM
but if there is great reason to buy the CM9 now that they have been out a bit I may consider as well.

The price difference is about $150, for that you get a smaller gun that's tighter, has better materials, and a much better trigger. You have to decide if it's worth the extra money for you. Don't worry about the CM9 needing to be out a while, everything that matters is identical to the PM9, which has been out for a long time.

possum
August 1, 2011, 05:15 PM
tighter, has better materials, and a much better trigger.

what does "tighter" matter on a fighting handgun? especially one that is the size and in the "niche" of the above mentioned handguns? This is not a debate on the tightness vs reliability of 1911's here that are going to be used for defense vs competition and or both. I think in the context of both of these handguns mentioned by the op "tighter/ tightness" should be of little concern. If anything you would want a fighting tool to be "looser" would you not? unless of course you are going to do bullseye shooting at 25-50yds. then again who would be using a kahr or kel tec of any kind for that?

better materials? what better materials? how are they better?

Much better trigger? How much better and in what way is it better? Trigger pull weight, reset, etc? Funny how Kahr doesn't list the trigger pull on their website......


The kahr is smaller height and lenght wise, however it is heavier than the PF-9, and it is 6+1 as compared to 7+1 of the PF-9.
After looking over the manufacturers websites, I can not see anywhere where a layman like myself can see a difference in "materials". maybe I am not looking in the right place? Since I can not find the information on the homepage for the company that makes the guns, maybe we can have some light shed on the topic by someone that knows. any takers?

R.W.Dale
August 1, 2011, 05:27 PM
I just want to add that for me in a carry handgun I want the absolute heaviest and longest trigger pull I can get.

Dont get me wrong i do appreciate a good trigger however If I pay attention I can overcome a bad trigger for range play and shoot groups of a more than adequate size for a CC piece, and IMO there are more than a few potential situations where that "bad" trigger may help prevent you from putting a hole in something you DON'T want a hole in.


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

possum
August 1, 2011, 05:35 PM
After much looking I have only been able to find info from kel-tec on "materials". they can be found on page 5 of the PDF that I have posted the link for.
http://www.keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/resources/f_40e0390a11d369dfd1ab8071bc5c91efPF-9_Manual.pdf

The only thing close to "materials" that I have been able to find on the Kahr page has to do with their CNC process.......

Which is funny because KEl-TEC CNC inc. is the name of the company (kel-tec), so the fact that kahr uses CNC must not be what is meant......

Scimmia
August 1, 2011, 06:53 PM
what does "tighter" matter on a fighting handgun? especially one that is the size and in the "niche" of the above mentioned handguns? This is not a debate on the tightness vs reliability of 1911's here that are going to be used for defense vs competition and or both. I think in the context of both of these handguns mentioned by the op "tighter/ tightness" should be of little concern. If anything you would want a fighting tool to be "looser" would you not? unless of course you are going to do bullseye shooting at 25-50yds. then again who would be using a kahr or kel tec of any kind for that?

If you want a looser gun, go for it. I spelled out what the extra money gets you, but notice I said that people have to decide for themselves if it's worth it or not. Obviously it isn't to you, but I prefer a solid gun that doesn't rattle and flop around. This could be the AK vs M16 debate, same deal. Loose tolerances vs close tolerances.

better materials? what better materials? how are they better?

The barrel steel is very high quality with very tight tolerances on the machining. The slides are 416 grade stainless steel. Metal tiggers and other firing control components. Hell, even the polymer just has a better feel to it IMO. Again, there's nothing wrong with the Kel-Tec, it's perfectly functional. If you don't want the extras the Kahr gets you, don't buy it.

Much better trigger? How much better and in what way is it better? Trigger pull weight, reset, etc? Funny how Kahr doesn't list the trigger pull on their website......

You said you owned a Kahr, so I'm surprised you're arguing this one. The Kahr trigger is 7-7.5 lb and it's the smoothest DAO pull in the sub compact market by FAR. This isn't even close betwee the Kel-Tec and the Kahr. I wish the reset was better, but that smooth pull is so nice, it's worth it.

The only thing close to "materials" that I have been able to find on the Kahr page has to do with their CNC process.......

Which is funny because KEl-TEC CNC inc. is the name of the company (kel-tec), so the fact that kahr uses CNC must not be what is meant......

Yes, when they say they use CNC that is exactly what they mean. CNC is a generic term meaning computer numerical control, where you feed design information into a computer and the computer controls the machine that is making the part. It's certainly not exlucive to Kel-Tec.

possum, I don't understand it, but you seem to have taken my commments personally. If you prefer the Kel-Tec, that's fine! I can completely understand that the Kahr isn't worth the extra money for some people. That's why there are so many choices on the market, buy what you like.

possum
August 1, 2011, 07:41 PM
You said you owned a Kahr, so I'm surprised you're arguing this one. The Kahr trigger is 7-7.5 lb and it's the smoothest DAO pull in the sub compact market by FAR. This isn't even close between the Kel-Tec and the Kahr. I wish the reset was better, but that smooth pull is so nice, it's worth it.
I do agree that the triggers were at one time better in the kahr's however, since kahr got the contract with the NYPD and started putting NYPD spec triggers in all of their guns except the elite models, they are not as good as the Kel tec in my opinion. The PF-9's trigger is 5 pounds BTW.

Hell, even the polymer just has a better feel to it IMO.
based on your feel , and not on facts of what is used to make either one of them.....


Again, there's nothing wrong with the Kel-Tec, it's perfectly functional. If you don't want the extras the Kahr gets you, don't buy it.

however you said this....

If you want a looser gun, go for it.

Well which is it? a Looser gun or perfectly functional?

possum, I don't understand it, but you seem to have taken my commments personally.
I do not take them personally as I have no affiliation with either company. However when people come on this or any other forum and make outlandish comments that they cannot support, I am going to say something. There is just to many people that look to these forums and others for knowledge and guidance. I do not believe that we need to display outlandish comments, and unreliable information to those people or the people that are members here who are interested in the topic at hand. This is how and why there is so much BS that gets slung around at the gun shops and the ranges, people heard something from someone who heard it from their cousin who knows the boss of company x. If you think that they use is better materials that is one thing, however your personal opinion and what justifies "better materials" is just that unless there is some way on which you can justify your statement.

Scimmia
August 1, 2011, 09:10 PM
I stand by all of my statements.

I do agree that the triggers were at one time better in the kahr's however, since kahr got the contract with the NYPD and started putting NYPD spec triggers in all of their guns except the elite models, they are not as good as the Kel tec in my opinion.

Your information about Kahr's trigger is wrong. The NYPD trigger was only used in the K9, and that's not standard anymore, only by special order. The CM9 being discussed here has the 3/8" travel "elite" trigger.

based on your feel , and not on facts of what is used to make either one of them.....

Do you know what IMO means? I specifically labeled that one as an opinion only. The others are fact.

Well which is it? a Looser gun or perfectly functional?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. A looser gun can certainly be functional, with the AK47 being the prime example. Kalashnikov even touts it as a feature, lets the gun run no matter what you do to it.

As for you final rant, I'm not going to even reply. I'll let my "outlandish comments, and unreliable information" speak for itself.

MICHAEL T
August 1, 2011, 11:08 PM
Well I have a CW-9 and a PF-9 want to guess what I carry . Its not the Kahr I let wife have it . I like the KT much better for daily carry. Mine has fired every brand of ball Ive tried including the Russian steel case junk and several brands of HP. I bought Kahr from friend now deceased or It would have been traded by now. I think their over priced. .

possum
August 1, 2011, 11:32 PM
Scimmia,

Thank you for your time, and posting your thoughts on the matter. I am taking the high road, there is nothing left to discuss. Have a good one.

JDGray
August 2, 2011, 09:13 PM
I think their over priced. .
__________________
Colt LTW Commander, Colt Defender, , Colt Mustang DW bobtail,1973 S&W Mod 49 ,PPK/S,Bersa 380

Thought this was funny owning all the Colts:D

A CW9 is only a hundred bucks over the PF9, and worth it for the trigger in my opinion. However, the new KT triggers are way way nicer than the old P11 design, and are actually shootable weapons. But agree, the all steel Kahrs are overpriced, as are the non CW line;)

franco45
August 2, 2011, 09:36 PM
Michael T. I thought you posted somewhere that your wife "claimed" the cw9 right after you got it. Possibly on Bersachat? Which is by the way the place to be when it comes to Bersa wisdom. I own and enjoy 2 Kel-Tecs. A p32 and a plr22. Both are functional and reliable. I currently own 3 Kahrs, a cw9, a cw45 and a cm9. The cm9 is my preferred carry piece. Isn't it interesting that some people will claim both the moral higher ground and unlimited gun knowledge and than claim that Kahr triggers suck because of a contract with the NYPD.:banghead:

Walt Sherrill
August 2, 2011, 10:33 PM
I've had a P9 and a PF9. I'd still have the P9 except someone made me an offer I simply couldn't resist (ca$h.)

I now carry the PF9, and it seems to be a good gun. That said, I think the P9 had a better trigger and was more comfortable to shoot. And while P9 was only fractions of an inch larger than the PF9, it quite a bit seemed larger, and I never could pocket carry with it -- but can the PF9.

If you decide on the less expensive PF9, look at the KTADDONs grip material, which changes the shooting experience a bit, and makes it more pleasant.

exdetsgt
August 2, 2011, 11:35 PM
I actually have a Kahr CM9, and have had it for a couple of months. Both my shooting buddy and I also have Glock 26 pistols, so we decided to have a "shoot out" to see which was a better performer. We are both Arizona Rangers so we have access to the local police shooting range. My partner also has a Kahr 45ACP (don't know the model number) so he is familiar with Kahr pistols. The CM9 did not out shoot the G26, nor did the G26 out shoot the CM9. They were pretty much equal. However, we both preferred shooting the CM9, mostly because of its silky trigger and narrower grip width, which translates into a pistol that conceals better. Ed, my partner, went right out and bought a CM9 for that very reason. So we both carry the CM9 now daily when off duty.
I don't think you could find a better small 9mm for the price ($414 to $450). I've nothing against Kel Tec pistols, especially the larger ones. I had a P3AT. It functioned well, but after 50 rounds I didn't want to shoot it any more. Whereas I shot 100 rounds of WWB through the CM9 with no hand discomfort. For more info, read Gun Tests recent report on the CM9.

trigun87
August 3, 2011, 12:22 AM
I can't speak on the KHAR I have zero experience with them. However my PF9 performs excellent everytime I take it to the range. I have actualy done a mild torture test of shooting it for several months straight without cleaning and it still performs great.

iblong
August 3, 2011, 08:30 AM
I've owned two PF9's and both ran great,reasonable accurate,easy to carry
and both were dependable through about 1500 rounds that I put through them.I think there one of the best values on the market,That said if you can afford the over priced Kahrs I recomend them highly.For me personally they are much more comfortable to shoot in extended range sessions more accurate in my hands due to bore axis,better follow ups ect.I own 4 and all have run perfect.But in the end I actually carry My G27 90% of the time.:)

Scimmia
August 3, 2011, 10:15 AM
That said if you can afford the over priced Kahrs I recomend them highly.

Do you find the CW and CM series pistols overpriced? At $350-$450 street price, they strike me as fair.

iblong
August 3, 2011, 12:04 PM
No I dont find the cw or cm series over priced.The pm,k and p I do.
I still like them but there not cheap.

camsdaddy
August 5, 2011, 12:02 PM
I find myself at this crossroad once again. I had a PF9 that I really liked yet sold. I have been talking to the guy that I sold it to about me buying it back. I can get the PF9 LNIB for $250.00 or the CM9 for $441. out the door. I just cant decide if the buttery smooth trigger Kahr is known for is worth the extra $190.00. Ive also heard the CM9 will be easier to shoot.

exdetsgt
August 5, 2011, 02:22 PM
Camsdaddy -

The CM9 is much easier to shoot; that, plus the trigger, makes it worth the extra money, at least for me.

franco45
August 5, 2011, 11:40 PM
Go with the cm9. You won't be disappointed.

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