Roll crimp vs Lee FCD


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nyc71
April 3, 2011, 06:51 PM
Sorry for my ignorance but what's the difference between the FCD & a rool crimp die? I own a FCD at the moment but would I get better results by use a roll crimp instead?

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918v
April 3, 2011, 06:54 PM
A Lee FCD is a roll crimp die... or taper crimp depending on the application. What round are you reloading?

Walkalong
April 3, 2011, 06:58 PM
Yep. If you bought a FCD for the caliber you are reloading, it should have the correct crimp for it. What caliber? I would recommend a Redding Profile Crimp Die to roll crimp ammo using a roll crimp.

918v
April 3, 2011, 07:53 PM
I taper crimp everything. None of my rounds kick very much, so I don't need a roll crimp.

eldon519
April 3, 2011, 08:03 PM
The Lee FCD also re-sizes the brass a second-time as it crimps. This takes some of the importance off of case-neck conformity and case trimming. With a a normal roll crimp die, when applying a heavy crimp, it is very easy to buckle cases, especially if case length is not monitored carefully.

Walkalong
April 3, 2011, 08:59 PM
The Lee FCD also re-sizes the brass a second-time as it crimps. This takes some of the importance off of case-neck conformity and case trimming. With a a normal roll crimp die, when applying a heavy crimp, it is very easy to buckle cases, especially if case length is not monitored carefully.

It doesn't "resize" again, it post sizes with a larger carbide insert. In theory it should only touch rounds bigger than SAMMI max diameter. (In theory) For rifles, no, case length is no big deal for the crimper, but for the pistol FCD case length is almost as critical as with a normal crimp die. It has a little play in the o-ring holding the crimp part still, so it has a little play which helps a tad. You still need cases to be close for best results. They are not magic, and cannot break the laws of physics. Yes, with a normal roll crimp die cases (IMHO and some disagree), need to be trimmed uniformly.

What caliber nyc71?

Rodentman
April 3, 2011, 09:22 PM
I have often read that pistol (revolver?) cases needn't be trimmed. My .44 mag brass measured from 1.265 to 1.285. OK yeah mixed headstamps, various # of times fired. Obviously seating the bullets didn't result in correct cannelure location with respect to the case mouth. The crimping of course was all over the place too. So now I trim them although I have not found a trimmer that pleases me completely yet.

Walkalong
April 3, 2011, 10:15 PM
Tried a Forster? Or a Wilson?

918v
April 3, 2011, 10:17 PM
I like Lee.

nyc71
April 3, 2011, 10:20 PM
38 spl with/without callenure.

918v
April 3, 2011, 10:44 PM
Your FCD has a roll crimp built in.

nyc71
April 4, 2011, 01:15 AM
I already have a RCBS roll crimp, bought a FCD for separate crimping but all this it's so confusing. I keep reading that 38 spl needs roll crimp.
Thanks for all the response.

joneb
April 4, 2011, 02:03 AM
I keep reading that 38 spl needs roll crimp.
When you fire a revolver the recoil pushes the gun back to the shooter, the remaining bullets in the cylinder are heavy and reluctant to move at the same rate as the revolver, so if there is not sufficient tension on the bullet by the case, the case will pull away from the bullet.

I use what ever is necessary to keep the case from pulling from the bullet, I take a dial caliper with me when testing new loads to check for "bullet pull".

ArchAngelCD
April 4, 2011, 02:39 AM
Like the others have said, revolver ammo uses a roll crimp and semi-auto ammo uses a taper crimp. My question is, what bullet are you using in the .38 Special that doesn't have a cannelure? Most, if not all bullets meant for use in a revolver will have a cannelure or crimp groove.

joneb
April 4, 2011, 03:02 AM
what bullet are you using in the .38 Special that doesn't have a cannelure?

I have loaded Rainier plated .357 dia 140 and 158gr without a cannelure for 38spl and reduced 357 mag. I use a 9x19/38 cal Hornady taper crimp die for such loads.

ArchAngelCD
April 4, 2011, 03:26 AM
I have loaded Rainier plated .357 dia 140 and 158gr without a cannelure for 38spl and reduced 357 mag. I use a 9x19/38 cal Hornady taper crimp die for such loads.
Not you jibjab, the new guy... I was concerned he might be using the wrong bullet possible meant for reloading the 9mm so that the bullet would be the wrong diameter.

nyc71
April 4, 2011, 03:31 AM
I'm using this
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=52&category=5&secondary=&keywords=

ArchAngelCD
April 4, 2011, 03:47 AM
Those are great bullets and they do have a crimp groove. The Lee FCD will work fine for you, I use one all the time and I have never had it post-size any round that's gone through it. I like to crimp in a separate operation instead of crimping as I seat the bullet. Some people think it's a waste of time, I don't.

Is your RCBS crimp die a stand along crimp die or does your RCBS seating die also apply a roll crimp? If it's stand alone you didn't need to buy another crimp die. (like the Lee die)

nyc71
April 4, 2011, 03:55 AM
It's the carbide roll crimp 3 die set.

ArchAngelCD
April 4, 2011, 04:30 AM
Then you didn't need to buy the Lee FCD because you already have a stand alone crimping die.

Walkalong
April 4, 2011, 07:27 AM
Get a Redding (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=719395) or Lee (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=469800) taper crimp only die for those Raniers and taper crimp in a separate step. Works great.

nyc71
April 4, 2011, 09:48 AM
So am I doing more harm than good with this setup of RCBS roll crimp in station 4 & Lee FCD in 5?

eldon519
April 4, 2011, 10:18 AM
It doesn't "resize" again, it post sizes with a larger carbide insert. In theory it should only touch rounds bigger than SAMMI max diameter. (In theory) For rifles, no, case length is no big deal for the crimper, but for the pistol FCD case length is almost as critical as with a normal crimp die. It has a little play in the o-ring holding the crimp part still, so it has a little play which helps a tad. You still need cases to be close for best results. They are not magic, and cannot break the laws of physics. Yes, with a normal roll crimp die cases (IMHO and some disagree), need to be trimmed uniformly.


From Lee's website regarding pistol FCD:
"A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered."

I wouldn't say it's impossible to buckle a case with an FCD, but in general their claims are in line with my experience. It's a pretty simple concept, no physics-violation required for it to function as advertised.

nyc71
April 4, 2011, 10:22 AM
Thank you.

eldon519
April 4, 2011, 10:40 AM
nyc,

Just saw your most recent post. I'd consider pulling the RCBS from station 4 and moving the FCD from 5 to 4. In my mind it is more of an either/or situation, though I suppose you can put it through two crimping operations as long as you aren't applying an excessively heavy crimp.

I saw you mentioned you are shooting .38 Special. If you are making target loads in a full-size revolver such as a S&W K-frame or Ruger GP-100, you really wouldn't need much crimp at all, probably just enough to remove the case mouth bell. If you are shooting heavy recoiling rounds such as .38 Special +P and firing them in a J-frame, then you need to worry about making sure you are applying enough crimp to keep the bullets form pulling and tying up the cylinder. Heavy crimping wears out brass faster, so if you don't need it (defensive rounds, heavy recoiling rounds, magnum slow-powder rounds, etc), then I would error on the lighter side of the crimping spectrum.

918v
April 4, 2011, 11:43 AM
From Lee's website regarding pistol FCD:
"A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered."

I wouldn't say it's impossible to buckle a case with an FCD, but in general their claims are in line with my experience. It's a pretty simple concept, no physics-violation required for it to function as advertised.

On the contrary, it is quite possible to buckle a cease inside the FCD. The only difference is the carbide ring will iron out the folded brass. I would not want to fire such a round. It's akin to doing body work with duct tape.

nyc71
April 4, 2011, 12:11 PM
I'm shooting light loads of unique 4.2gr out of S&W 642.

Walkalong
April 4, 2011, 04:07 PM
From Lee's website regarding pistol FCD:
"A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered."

The FCD for pistols, which is what we are discussing, can be improperly adjusted and over crimp, just like any other crimp die. That fact that it then squeezes the round back into "shape" is not good enough for me. It does have a little give with the o-ring, which helps, but it can over crimp if adjusted wrong.

The FCD for rifle cannot buckle a case because it is squeezing the brass in at 90 degrees to crimp. I assume that is the die the Lee quote is for.

On the contrary, it is quite possible to buckle a cease inside the FCD. The only difference is the carbide ring will iron out the folded brass.
Pretty much. Just because a mistake is "ironed out" does not make it OK.

eldon519
April 4, 2011, 09:40 PM
I understand how they work; and I'm not just re-psting what is on their website because I love marketing. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, I have been able to put some ridiculous crimps on revolver rounds with my FCD by accident to the point that I wouldn't shoot them, and in doing so, I didn't buckle the cases, nor buckle and iron them back out. This is a stark contrast to my previous experience for the Redding roll crimp die I had been using which wouldn't reliably approach anything I would call a heavy crimp without heavy scrutiny towards case length. As I stated, I'm sure it is possible to buckle a case in an FCD, but my experience with them has primarily been as advertised.

joneb
April 4, 2011, 10:00 PM
Not you jibjab, the new guy..

oops, :o

918v
April 5, 2011, 12:20 AM
I understand how they work; and I'm not just re-psting what is on their website because I love marketing. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, I have been able to put some ridiculous crimps on revolver rounds with my FCD by accident to the point that I wouldn't shoot them, and in doing so, I didn't buckle the cases, nor buckle and iron them back out. This is a stark contrast to my previous experience for the Redding roll crimp die I had been using which wouldn't reliably approach anything I would call a heavy crimp without heavy scrutiny towards case length. As I stated, I'm sure it is possible to buckle a case in an FCD, but my experience with them has primarily been as advertised.

There is no difference between a Lee FCD and a Redding in terms of roll crimping. They both roll crimp the same way and are both sensitive to case length. To say otherwise indicates a basic lack of understanding of the crimping process.

eldon519
April 5, 2011, 01:09 AM
To say otherwise indicates a basic lack of understanding of the crimping process.

That's a pretty presumptuous statement. It's amazing how you were able to rule out all the variables from the comfort of your keyboard. Sorry, but rhetoric doesn't make it so.

918v
April 5, 2011, 01:19 AM
It does. As far as crimping is concerned, there is no mechanical difference between these two dies. None whatsoever.

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