building an automatic, from a parts kit


PDA






kingcheese
April 3, 2011, 10:48 PM
I know that typically, the only part of a rifle that is considered to be a firearm its self is the reciever/frame, and i know that i can not just go out and build an automatic out of any ak-47 i can grab of the shelf, what i dont know is if i can buy an original parts kit(full auto capable), from befor 1982 or what ever the year new automatics where no longer availible for civilians and build an automatic ak from that.


i didnt know if maybe i could buy an old parts kit, and build a new "replacement" reciever, if i went through the process of the paper work and all that required to build anygun that requires a 200 dollar tax

and if i could not, what is required to buy a parts kit and build a new reciever for it, assuming i made it semi auto only, and keep it as a full size rifle, with 18 inch or longer barrel, and at least 26 inches over all

basically, if i can not build a new reciever for a full auto parts kit, would i have to pay a tax, to build a semi automatic only rifle by buying a parts kit, and stamping a reciever

If you enjoyed reading about "building an automatic, from a parts kit" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
nalioth
April 3, 2011, 10:55 PM
The key word is "build".

If it wasn't built and/or registered as a machine gun prior to May, 1986, it's not legal.


The rest of your post describes what's been being done for almost 10 years.

kingcheese
April 3, 2011, 11:29 PM
so what kinda paperwork do i need to fill out to make a recever for use on a full size rifle?

nalioth
April 3, 2011, 11:35 PM
so what kinda paperwork do i need to fill out to make a recever for use on a full size rifle?Under federal law, none.

Federal law says folks can make firearms for personal use.

Your state and local laws may disagree, though.

jojo200517
April 3, 2011, 11:51 PM
Repeat after me "no magical loop hole exists for legally obtaining civilian transferable post 86 machine guns". Me and probably a minimum of 2.3 million other people would have already found them if they existed and they wouldn't still be open.

You said it your self pretty much really,
*the parts kit is not the weapon (therefore when it was manufactured doesn't matter)
*the receiver or frame is the serial numbered part and is in fact considered the weapon

This receiver is the part you'd be making in present day 2011. Therefore you would be manufacturing a machine gun illegally if you built it to full auto specs, and yes even if you just made the receiver and did nothing more.

Now even a "replacement" receiver assuming it was a pre 86 registered machine gun I do believe is highly frowned on. Someone else can chime in but wasn't someone busted for doing some "creative repair"?

nalioth
April 4, 2011, 12:07 AM
Now even a "replacement" receiver assuming it was a pre 86 registered machine gun I do believe is highly frowned on. Someone else can chime in but wasn't someone busted for doing some "creative repair"?They were "creatively repairing" indeed.

Some bright star decided to cut the serial number areas from registered Mac-10 receivers and weld them to 1919 receivers "creating" full-auto 1919 machine guns.

They're in jail now.

If the MG receiver was registered prior to the cutoff, there's nothing illegal about installing a parts kit on to it by the owner. In fact, many owners today are using registered select-fire Chinese AKs as 'donor guns' for their "new FA AK".

kingcheese
April 4, 2011, 03:17 AM
i guess i could buy a registered chinese ak reciever, i'd hope it wouldnt cost to much, maybe 400 at most, but that is kinda a lot for just a piece of stamped metal, and buy the parts kit, i am assuming that there are some recievers floating around that i can get them easy enough

or i guess i could settle for a semi auto only one

why cant they make a automatic for people who cant afford a 200 dollar tax? i mean really, thats a crap load of ammunition i could buy for that.

mboylan
April 4, 2011, 07:30 AM
i guess i could buy a registered chinese ak reciever, i'd hope it wouldnt cost to much, maybe 400 at most, but that is kinda a lot for just a piece of stamped metal, and buy the parts kit, i am assuming that there are some recievers floating around that i can get them easy enough

or i guess i could settle for a semi auto only one

why cant they make a automatic for people who cant afford a 200 dollar tax? i mean really, thats a crap load of ammunition i could buy for that.

$400 for a legal full-auto Chinese receiver, get real. It's $12,000 to $14,000. There were fewer than 100 bring backs from Vietnam and probably less than 1000 legal conversions before the 1986 ban. The registry was closed on May 19, 1986. No transferable automatic weapons can be registered after that date.

The cheapest legal automatic weapon you can buy is a SWD M11/9 at about $3000. Legal transferable automatic weapons are rare (less than 200,000), in high demand and very valuable in the USA.

Do it yourself and you are looking at 10 years in Federal prison. You will be fined up to $250,000. You will be a convicted felon. You will be stripped of your right to vote. You will be stripped of your right to possess or even handle firearms. Think of an illegal automatic weapon as a kilo of cocaine or heroin.

Bubbles
April 4, 2011, 09:09 AM
Some bright star decided to cut the serial number areas from registered Mac-10 receivers and weld them to 1919 receivers "creating" full-auto 1919 machine guns.

They're in jail now.
Not yet. The case is ongoing.


why cant they make a automatic for people who cant afford a 200 dollar tax?
The transfer tax is the cheapest cost of owning a transferrable machine gun.

Alternatively you could get your Type 07 FFL ($200 every three years), pay your SOT ($500 per year) and ITAR fee ($2250 per year), and build all you want. You also have to be in the business of manufacturing and selling firearms as well, which means coughing up some cash for machine tools, a good welder, blast cabinet, etc. as well as taking the time to run the business, process invoices, collect and remit sales taxes, file income tax returns, etc.

Sam1911
April 4, 2011, 09:24 AM
and if i could not, what is required to buy a parts kit and build a new receiver for it, assuming i made it semi auto only, and keep it as a full size rifle, with 18 inch or longer barrel, and at least 26 inches over all

This part of your post is completely workable. Search here for threads on building an AK -- the process has been explained many times. Or surf over to AKfiles.com or AK47.net or AK-Builder.com or probably a dozen other places for the info.

As far as the full-auto part of your question -- that's been explained well by others. If you want a civilian-legal full-auto, you'll have to buy one that was in the NFA Machine Gun registry prior to May 19, 1986. There is a very limited supply and a lot of demand. That supply and demand dictates that the prices are in the neighborhood of $12,000+ for a gun that would be worth 1/10th - 1/20th (or even less) that price as a semi-automatic.

It sucks. Call your congressman.

ultradoc
April 4, 2011, 09:33 AM
On a Sons Of Guns show a fellow brought in a WW2 German machine gun in parts. They rebuilt that. Is that legal?

nalioth
April 4, 2011, 09:41 AM
On a Sons Of Guns show a fellow brought in a WW2 German machine gun in parts. They rebuilt that. Is that legal?Here is "Sons of Guns" in a nutshell:

Fact: Will Hayden owns Red Jacket Firearms.
Fact: Will Hayden is a SOT7 and builds fine guns.
Fact: Will Hayden has a daughter named Stephanie.

Everything else is fiction, as far as I'm concerned. Some of the things said on that show are just crazy wrong. Some of the things shown done on that show are just crazy wrong.

The Navy comes to Red Jacket for a M16-based suppressive fire weapon?
I though the Navy could get M240s or M249s as needed. Why would they want something that is unproven and not combat-worthy?

I chalk it all up to "It's TV-land" and "the producers told them to say that/act like that"



As is said at the beginning of each show: "Don't try this at home."

kingcheese
April 4, 2011, 09:41 AM
as much is i would like a full auto ak style weapon, i just cant justify spending anywhere near that for a rifle that isnt accurate enough to be used for anything but spamming a target

i know saying this hear wont change anything legally, but i just don't understand why they had to stop makeing and importanting civilian automatics in 1986, im sure mostly it was to dry up the spply to make them harder to get, but i think it should be legal for some one like me, to go to the store and buy parts like a reciever, for an old style automatic, like an ak-47, and be able to afford it, and be able to buy it new

i know it dont change nothing, but i feel better now

if its gonna be that much for a ak-47, maybe ill just build a semi auto :)

Jim Watson
April 4, 2011, 09:45 AM
Re ultradoc:
Sure.
They are licensed full auto manufacturers. The fellow is a licensed full auto manufacturer, that gun was just outside his expertise.

I know of one daisy chain of builders who do as Bubbles says. They pay their license fees and keep records. They "do business" largely by selling each other their projects as "dealer samples" with enough jobs for government agencies to satisfy the feds.

nalioth
April 4, 2011, 09:49 AM
Re ultradoc:
Sure.
They are licensed full auto manufacturers. The fellow is a licensed full auto manufacturer, that gun was just outside his expertise.

I know of one daisy chain of builders who do as Bubbles says. They pay their license fees and keep records. They "do business" largely by selling each other their projects as "dealer samples" with enough jobs for government agencies to satisfy the feds.

I think ultradoc was asking if it was legal to reactivate a dewat.

Sam1911
April 4, 2011, 09:49 AM
but i just don't understand why they had to stop makeing and importanting civilian automatics in 1986

Because a senator (Hughes) from NJ introduced an amendment into an otherwise very good bill to do so (though his amendment was voted down), and a senator (Rangel... still around and active, BTW (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fworld%2F2010%2Fnov%2F16%2Fcharles-rangel-convicted-misconduct-congress&ei=r72ZTdCuMYe_gQf0lcjBCA&usg=AFQjCNH04PrADQzs6hbihaJfox9SJ28-jg&sig2=oyxeR0G2NArqn8tyCDlcMA)) from NY decided to pull a trick and get it included in the final version anyway.

FOPA 1986: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

It really doesn't take a "movement," or a consensus, or much beyond some legislative chicanery to change the world sometimes.

AlexanderA
April 4, 2011, 09:49 AM
i guess i could buy a registered chinese ak reciever, i'd hope it wouldnt cost to much, maybe 400 at most, but that is kinda a lot for just a piece of stamped metal, and buy the parts kit, i am assuming that there are some recievers floating around that i can get them easy enough

or i guess i could settle for a semi auto only one

why cant they make a automatic for people who cant afford a 200 dollar tax? i mean really, thats a crap load of ammunition i could buy for that.

<deleted> Full automatics are pricey (thousands of dollars). If you don't have the dough, you're not in the game.

When you're buying a registered receiver, what you're really buying is the registered status and the paperwork. The actual physical hardware, value-wise, is the least of it. You can't just "build" a gun and get around the requirements. (Unless you're prepared to go to prison for a long time.)

kingcheese
April 4, 2011, 01:22 PM
i was just hoping that with as many aks are around that maybe there was a stockpile of pre 1986 recievers somewhere

and one last question, if i had a semi auto from before 1986, could i hae a dealer turn it in to an automatic, i would be ok spending a few thousand, but i just dont think id enjoy it enough to spend anywhere close to 12-14 thousand on one gun, unless it was belt fed :rolleyes:

SDC
April 4, 2011, 01:36 PM
"and one last question, if i had a semi auto from before 1986, could i hae a dealer turn it in to an automatic"

Nope; the choke-point here is that a privately-transferable FA had to be manufactured and registered before the '86 cutoff; modifying an existing SA rifle to FA is "manufacturing" an unregistered FA.

Sam1911
April 4, 2011, 02:14 PM
Yup, nope. The registry is only of Title II firearms like machine guns. (There is no registry of semi-autos for your gun to be in, and it wouldn't help if there was.) If the gun wasn't registered as a machine gun before 1986, it can't be registered as one now.

Trebor
April 4, 2011, 02:17 PM
Kingcheese,

As has been explained before, there is no cheap way to get into owning a machine gun in the U.S. The only things you can own are those guns that were manufactured AND registered before May 1986. You can't build one, you can't convert a semi-auto, you can't import one, etc, etc,etc. Whatever "loophole" you think you've found has already been closed.

It sucks, but that's the law.

The good news is prices on many MG's are down slightly due to the economy. Were talking saving maybe $1K or $2K on a $10K purchase though.

shotgunjoel
April 4, 2011, 04:00 PM
kingcheese, the closest to full auto that you are going to get for under $3000 is bump-firing or Knob Creek. Outside of that, forget about it.

kingcheese
April 4, 2011, 05:21 PM
well, that answers my questions, as far as i am concerned this thread can be closed now, thanks for all the help

Sam1911
April 4, 2011, 05:23 PM
Ok!

If you enjoyed reading about "building an automatic, from a parts kit" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!