Savage vs Remington (tactical)


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chrt396
April 4, 2011, 03:12 AM
I'm a bit confused! I currently have a Savage model 10 with the 5R threaded barrel, Accu-trigger and Accu-stock. It was a limited run..or at least that is what I was told and the rifle is NOT listed in Savages offerings via web site. It is a tack driver! I can sit at a bench and fire off up to 100 rounds in 3 1/2 hours and although the barrel gets hot..it never loses accuracy. Now..this Savage has a heavy barrel as well as 5R rifling.
I have been looking at a Remington Target Tactical. Sweet looking rifle. This rifle features the triangulated barrel, It also lists that it has 5R rifling. It is also listed as a tack driver.

My question is...what feature of the Savage allows me to blow off so many rounds without the barrel turning to a wimpy piece of Spaghetti? The heat does NOT effect accuracy..so why is that? The 5R rifling? The heavy barrel? Does the triangulated barrel offer the same resistance to heat that the Savage does?

I have a Browning X-bolt 30-06 and a Thompson Center Icon .308 that after 5 rounds..starts spraying a bit. THAT is why I was so thrilled to have picked up the Savage! It keeps shooting and actually gets more accurate, the more I shoot it! :confused:

Any advice on the Remington would be GREATLY appreciated!

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Dave Workman
April 5, 2011, 01:32 PM
The Savage barrel has always been a gem, IMHO, because I've never seen one that, when coupled with a good scope and a steady hand, couldn't produce MOA groups all day long.

The robust barrel lug is part of the equation, and that new trigger system is one of the best I've ever seen. I have that trigger on my .308 Savage American Classic, which is one rifle that I have yet to plug a deer with, but intend to remedy that situation this fall. It's topped by a Leupold 3-9X scope and when using my handloads, it sizzles.

Any barrel will eventually go south if you just shot and shoot and shoot without letting it cool down a bit. Keep that in mind.

451 Detonics
April 5, 2011, 05:38 PM
One big thing about the Savage barrels is the fact they are button rifled instead of being hammer forged like the Remington. Button rifling results in extremely even stresses in the barrel which minimizes the problems of bullets walking as the barrel heats up. With a hammer forged barrel because the metal is worked completely throughout the barrel there are considerable radial stresses induced and this leads to uneven expansion as the barrel heats up.

There is not a single custom match barrel maker that uses hammer forging.

TonyAngel
April 6, 2011, 12:58 AM
I don't think that the fact that no custom barrel makers use hammer forging is an indication that hammer forging is necessarily a bad thing. From what I understand, the initial cost of setting up for hammer forging barrels is really cost prohibitive for smaller operations, which all of the custom barrel makers are. Besides, hammer forging is considered to be a desirable trait in barrels that must withstand a lot of abuse. Hammer forging is supposed to be a more efficient method of producing a barrel with a true bore.

In any case, the OP is comparing apples to oranges when comparing the behavior of a heavy barrel to that of lighter profiled barrels. As a practical matter, my first rifle was a Remington SPS Tactical and I usually put a lot more than 100 rounds through it in less than a three hour period and never experienced the POI walking.

As for the OP's rifle getting more accurate the more he shoots it, this is likely due to a couple of things. To a limited extent, all barrels get more accurate as you put more rounds through it. The most likely reason is that the OP is getting to be a better shot with more practice.

451 Detonics
April 6, 2011, 01:08 AM
Hammer forging isn't a bad thing, it just doesn't make the most accurate barrels. If hammer forging was better then no one would be taking them off and then replace them with barrels from Lothar Walther, Hart, Shilen, Douglas, Krieger, etc. It is the least expensive and fastest way to make a barrel however once the machinery is set up. If hammer forging made better barrels the custom makers would bit the cost bullet would use that method...they want their barrels to win competitions, second place isn't good advertising.

benzy2
April 6, 2011, 01:14 AM
There is not a single custom match barrel maker that uses hammer forging.
Have you seen the cost of the equipment to hammer forge? It is only a viable option for companies producing hundreds of thousands of barrels, not a couple thousand. Not to say it is better, but it is certainly a big factor in why a custom barrel from a small shop isn't hammer forging anything.

How I understand the issue, hammer forging is very consistent from barrel to barrel. Button rifling depends on the quality of the button. If you get a barrel cut on a good new button, you are in luck. If you get a barrel cut at the end of the button's life, not as good. Hammer forged all come back pretty much the same. You can hammer forge poorly and you can button cut poorly. Either has the ability to suck or be decent, certainly above and beyond factory rifle level.

TonyAngel
April 6, 2011, 11:22 AM
I'll just take the position that hammer forging, or the lack of it, is not the reason why the OP's heavy barrel Savage shoots better than his skinny barrel rifles. He's making an apples to oranges comparision.

There are plenty of accurate rifles with heavy barrels on the market these days and getting a "tack driver" is really no oddity. Being able to shoot a rifle to its full potential is the oddity.

I'm running two rifles with Krieger barrels right now and the big difference that I see between the stock Remington barrels and the Kriegers are higher velocity due to the tighter chamber tolerances and far less copper fouling. Accuracy was not a big improvement.

28lx
April 6, 2011, 02:38 PM
I just bought a Remington 700 ADL in 7mm-08 that will put 5 not 3 shots under an inch everytime if I do my part. Its a new Remington that everyone says sucks and it has a sporter weight barrel go figure. My CDL 25-06 is a shooter also and my new 1894 marlin 44 mag with a Remmy barrel shoots great also.

chrt396
April 12, 2011, 12:35 AM
I'll just take the position that hammer forging, or the lack of it, is not the reason why the OP's heavy barrel Savage shoots better than his skinny barrel rifles. He's making an apples to oranges comparision.

There are plenty of accurate rifles with heavy barrels on the market these days and getting a "tack driver" is really no oddity. Being able to shoot a rifle to its full potential is the oddity.

I'm running two rifles with Krieger barrels right now and the big difference that I see between the stock Remington barrels and the Kriegers are higher velocity due to the tighter chamber tolerances and far less copper fouling. Accuracy was not a big improvement.
I'm not comparing!! I'm simply stating a fact. I understand why the smaller profile barrels wander as they heat up. That is a given. I'm simply asking WHY is it that the Savage just gets better as I shoot! Practice would be a great guess, but I shoot twice a week and actually...I get sloppier as I sit there longer..but the rifle does not! I was looking into a Remington Target Tactical, but I'm not sure if I'll get any better results or the same as my Savage! I would like to get another rifle so that I can save the life of this Savage, but I want a rifle that produces the same positive results given the abuse that I give it.

chrt396
April 12, 2011, 12:38 AM
One big thing about the Savage barrels is the fact they are button rifled instead of being hammer forged like the Remington. Button rifling results in extremely even stresses in the barrel which minimizes the problems of bullets walking as the barrel heats up. With a hammer forged barrel because the metal is worked completely throughout the barrel there are considerable radial stresses induced and this leads to uneven expansion as the barrel heats up.

There is not a single custom match barrel maker that uses hammer forging.
Thanks 451 for the comprehensive description. I feel like I wanna go out and buy the same rifle as a back up for the Savage when I wear it out! I'm lovin' the thing!

crossrhodes
April 12, 2011, 01:14 AM
I couldn't tell you which on is better. I could tell you that my savage will shooter better then my Remington and both are police models with heavy barrels. Remington does seem to have better stocks but that's about it for me. But I wont say that Remington is a crappy rifle and I really like the RSASS rifle they made with JP Enterprises.

jpwilly
April 12, 2011, 02:48 AM
My Savage 10 does the same thing, as in, it shoots consistantly all day without any cleaning. I really enjoy shooting it.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/DSC_0213.jpg

Rob96
April 12, 2011, 04:58 AM
I have a Remington 700 ADL Varmint in 308 that shoots .59moa with the current handload. I had a Savage Model 10 in 308. It would start good but after about 21 rounds shooting round groups with time in between, accuracy would go south.

SpeedAKL
April 12, 2011, 12:13 PM
My Remington SPS-V is typically a .75 MOA gun with good ammo so long as I don't screw up the shots:). It's hard to go wrong with either. From personal observation Savage seems to be a bit more accurate out of the box and gives you better "bang for your buck" from the factory in terms of features. For example, some of the upgraded 10FP models offer things like a McMillan A5 stock (one of the best tactical stocks on the market). The Police rifles are also typically priced lower than the tactical 700s. The Remington's advantages include nicer stock offerings from the factory )unless you go with the higher-end Savages) and more importantly a larger user community. There is a larger knowledge base available on maintaining and upgrading the 700 and the aftermarket is absolutely immense. Most high-end custom rifle builders made their name by constructing rifles using the 700 action.

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