Would you open carry a BP revolver?


PDA






MCgunner
April 4, 2011, 05:58 PM
Purely speculative as I can't open carry in Texas and usually conceal an auto pistol for practical reasons. But, if I could open carry, I thought I might occasionally carry my 5.5" .51 Navy just because I can. Fresh loads, it always goes boom and with the proper cap size, I don't seem to have the cap in the hammer problem. Then, too, I have a flap style crossdraw for my ROA.

Just wondering what other's thoughts were. I wouldn't go to a gunfight with the BPs, but they're pretty formidable as defense guns. Bill Hickock thought so, anyway.

If you enjoyed reading about "Would you open carry a BP revolver?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Busyhands94
April 4, 2011, 06:10 PM
yes. anybody looking down the barrel of a .44 Colt Walker is not in a position to continue attacking if they want to live. hearing that deadly >Click< of the hammer, seeing those .44 lead balls in the cylinder glistening at you like a lion's eyes while you look down that big blue and cold barrel, that shiny brass trigger guard, i think that anybody with half a brain would at least realize that they should learn to behave themselves or risk getting blown away.

kbbailey
April 4, 2011, 06:16 PM
As a woods/trail gun ...sure, I would carry my '58.
As a for-real 'wrong side of the tracks' gun......nooo. (not if I had a choice)

ElvinWarrior
April 4, 2011, 06:22 PM
You know, I don't even know what the law says about "open carry" for California or Los Angeles, which is especially harsh and restrictive on gun ownership these days. I guess I am going to have to check that one out.

But, in answer to your question, HELL YA !!!

But probably only on special occassions, like, going to work, or going to the store, or taking the dog for a walk, or... just walking around for the hell of it !!! LOL

But, seriously,I have this sort of "dress ups" thing I like doing sometimes, getting all dressed up in a periode or fantasy costume of some type, you know, for Halloween, or for showing up at one of the "freak show", anime conventions... So, I guess I would occassionally "open carry" if I got all dressed up as say, a Davey Crocket impersonator, or a "Wild Bill Hickock" impersonator. Heck, I may do that anyways, "open carry" a fancy, nice quality stage or prop gun, like the following pic.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/ElvinWarrior/flint-rifle-bayonet-pirate.jpg

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

MCgunner
April 4, 2011, 06:31 PM
LOL on the dress up thing, sorta hits home. I've built this leather rig out of a buscadero belt, holster with hammer thong, US stamped cap/flask/ball flap pouch, and a cross draw for the Ruger. I added a large size HKS speedloader case and it perfectly fits the two spare cylinders for my Navy. None of this is useful as I don't carry the guns afield, might start. LOL Not really authentic, either, as old Wild Bill just stuffed his Navys in his sash, but, I just did it to be doing it and I put the stuff on sometimes like some kid reliving the 50s/60s TV westerns. :banghead: I'm an adolecent 58 year old, I guess.

But, I was thinkin', now if they'd just pass that open carry law, I'd walk into Walmart with this rig on. ROFL

nalioth
April 4, 2011, 06:41 PM
I can't open carry in TexasMe, neither, but I'd open carry my shiny polished stainless Remy 1858 if it were allowed :)

ElvinWarrior
April 4, 2011, 06:48 PM
McGunner !!!

Talkin 'bout dress ups !!! Take a gander at this fine lad !!! A son any BP nut would be PROUD of !!!

:) :) :) :) :)

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/ElvinWarrior/jason.jpg

And, speaking of good 'ol Wild Bill... Here is a jewel...

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/ElvinWarrior/s7_213009_999_01.jpg

And, that sounds like one TERRIFIC periode/re-enactment get-up !!! Fine Job That !!! Also, who is to say it's NOT historically correct? I am sure Wild Bill didn't wear EXACTLY the same clothes every single day of his life !!! And, you know, walking around with two 8" pistols stuffed in your pants can be really uncomfortable and somewhat of a stress on your "pride", especially when you sit on down to the card table... I am also sure, on occassion, when he got all "dressed up", that he donned a tad of leather now and again...

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... Dave, "EW"

rdstrain49
April 4, 2011, 07:45 PM
Yes I do, nearly every day, horseback in the mountains.
http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad281/rdstrain49/IMG_0374.jpg

And with groups like this at 25 yards I feel confident.
http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad281/rdstrain49/IMG_0415.jpg

MrWesson
April 4, 2011, 07:47 PM
If you are going to OC you might as well look good while doing it :).

mykeal
April 4, 2011, 08:24 PM
yes. anybody looking down the barrel of a .44 Colt Walker is not in a position to continue attacking if they want to live. hearing that deadly >Click< of the hammer, seeing those .44 lead balls in the cylinder glistening at you like a lion's eyes while you look down that big blue and cold barrel, that shiny brass trigger guard, i think that anybody with half a brain would at least realize that they should learn to behave themselves or risk getting blown away.
Assuming, of course, that you actually get to draw it. That's the problem with open carry - it allows the bad guy to identify the targets...

burnse
April 4, 2011, 08:36 PM
I would absolutely do so. As a matter of fact, I plan on (concealed) carrying my fluted 1860. I just need to make the 1860 mine first.

nalioth
April 4, 2011, 08:48 PM
That's the problem with open carry - it allows the bad guy to identify the targets.... . . and turn around and haul their carcass to a safer place.

Please provide us with any confirmed incidents where "the bad guy took out the open carriers first in the commission of a crime".

I've got quite a few confirmed reports of criminals moving on to a softer target after seeing open carriers at their original intended target.


Otherwise, your statement is perpetuating a myth.

mykeal
April 4, 2011, 08:52 PM
Show me.

nalioth
April 4, 2011, 09:02 PM
Open carry deters Waffle House robbers (https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=waffle+house+open+carry)

VCDL Board Member Foils Bank Robbery By Open Carry - THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=244039)

Amazing use of a 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt - THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=464346)

Just a few.


Now please show us situations where the open carrier got whacked first. . .

AlexanderA
April 4, 2011, 09:15 PM
Somebody might think you were on your way to a reenactment. They'd wonder where was the rest of your costume.

JEB
April 4, 2011, 10:02 PM
Somebody might think you were on your way to a reenactment. They'd wonder where was the rest of your costume.

wear some boots and a hat and nobody will think twice. you will have to deal with all the kids who want mom to take their picture with the "walmart cowboy":D

Pulp
April 4, 2011, 10:58 PM
" i think that anybody with half a brain would at least realize that they should learn to behave themselves or risk getting blown away. "

Unfortunately there's a whole bunch of folks out there with less than half a brain. Or a half brain stoked up on meth. Yeah, I reckon a Walker would take care of the problem though.

SAA
April 4, 2011, 11:13 PM
Sure. I used to open carry my 1858 Remington clone right past the police department while riding my bike to my friends house when I was fifteen or sixteen years old. Uncapped it was legally "unloaded". That's the legal way to transport a cap-and-ball on a bicycle, right?:D

BHP FAN
April 4, 2011, 11:15 PM
with this lil' guy, you wouldn't have to OPEN carry...
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af11/hut-man/Pistolas.jpg

BlackPowderSmoke
April 4, 2011, 11:34 PM
I live in an open carry state but usually only open carry on private property. I usually have at least one 58 Remmy strapped on. On one particular night, I had a plain steel 58 riding in a shoulder holster when I nearly encountered an armed robbery suspect. I say nearly because he got the hell out of Dodge. My encounter (http://blackpowdersmoke.com/forum/index.php?topic=518.0)

Now, I ain't so confident over the matter when I consider he could have easily had the drop on me because I had no idea he was around. But that would hold true whether I was open carrying or not, black powder revolver or modern pistol.

Few people other than law enforcement carry here in North Carolina, so I am certain I was mistaken for a cop. While fleeing, he encountered my nephew and told him he didn't want any trouble, he was just trying to get away from the law. My nephew called the law, US Marshals were crawling the area minutes later. Until the call, his trail was cold.

I also think the size of the revolver was a factor in his deciding to retreat. I doubt he had an idea of whether it was modern or not. The Remmy design is somewhat modern anyway. He must have mistaken me for Dirty Harry, coming after him, alone, with a cannon...

hogshead
April 4, 2011, 11:42 PM
I'm with RDStrain 49 I always open carry on horse back and most of the time its my Uberti 1858.

ElvinWarrior
April 5, 2011, 03:23 AM
That does it... I'm so jealous of these guys riding around on their horses, carrying their pistol and rifles I could just crap BRICKS...

I'ma doin it, I've been a thinkin on it for years, and years, and now I'ma gunna do it.

Sell EVERYTHING...
Get the HELL OUT OF Los Angeles
Homestead a place up Alaska way
A Gun, A Horse, An Axe, A Knife, A Hatchet, And a Fry Pan.

Thats All I will need.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... Dave, "EW"

MCgunner
April 5, 2011, 07:11 AM
Well, in Alaska, be sure you have a gelding to ride. If he ain't, he will be, freeze his cojones off up there. :D

mykeal
April 5, 2011, 07:14 AM
Open carry deters Waffle House robbers

VCDL Board Member Foils Bank Robbery By Open Carry - THR

Amazing use of a 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt - THR

Just a few.


Now please show us situations where the open carrier got whacked first. . .

Your citations are much like those available from Michigan Open Carry - they collect those events that support only their point of view, which makes perfect sense. Since I don't oppose the right to open carry - in fact, I support it - I don't collect incident reports in opposition. I have no intention of providing ammunition to those opposed to open carry, so even if I had such information I wouldn't do so.

I simply rely on what I believe I would do in a similar situation. It just makes sense to me that if I were intent on using a firearm to rob someone or someplace, I'd identify threats and plan to nullify them - in other words, if I saw someone carrying a gun, I'd shoot him first. It's true that some miscreants would back off, but others wouldn't and it's those who won't that pose a real threat. To say, as I infer from your statement, that none of those braver BG's exist and that the mere sighting of a gun is enough to always cause the bad guy to flee seems to me illogical, so why give them the advantage when they are present?

If the better argument is determined by who can post the most media and blog reports, I will concede. But can you really be certain that all the bad guys react as claimed in a collection of clippings from an organization with a specific view point?

Edit: Originally I wasn't going to get into the cases you cited, feeling that the old, 'I can post more stories than you can' issue was more important to address. But, in retrospect I feel it's important to at least point out that there's another side to consider in each case.

First, the Waffle House in Georgia: when confronted by the police, the BG's in the car said they were waiting to rob the restaurant but changed their minds upon finding out that some customers were armed. Maybe that's true. And it's also possible that they told the cops that simply to avoid prosecution for attempted armed robbery. Am I to believe that armed robbers suddenly become completely honest about their intentions when confronted by law enforcement?

Second, the VCDL member in his bank: the robber came in, looked around the bank and then fled. It's speculation that he changed his mind because of the VDCL member's open carry of his 1911. We don't even know if he actually saw the gun. And if you read the entire thread, post #22 contains a description of a situation where the person carrying openly did not deter the assault, and was in fact the target of the assault. True, he was not shot, but he was targeted; the robber chose to disarm him instead, but can you count on all BG's making that decision? I think not.

Finally, the 1875 Remington: A robber enters a store and immediately shoots the store owner/clerk; he's eventually mortally wounded by a citizen who happens to be open carrying. Again, there's no evidence the BG saw the citizen's gun but chose to attack the store owner first. I maintain that he (the BG) made the assumption the owner might have a gun behind the counter and chose to neutralize that probable threat without knowing about the citizen's gun. In fact, the evidence is clear that he was not aware of the citizen's gun because he (the BG) did not react to the citizen until after the citizen had drawn and confronted the BG. I maintain that if the BG had been aware of the citizen's gun, he (the BG) would have shot him (the citizen) first because he was the more immediate threat; it was only speculation that caused him to shoot the store owner. In this case the open carry simply wasn't a factor one way or the other, as the BG wasn't aware of it.

So your three citations make no case for open carry that I can see. Again, I'm all in favor of the right to carry, openly or concealed. But you make your choices based on common sense, and it's just common sense to me that if you encounter a BG that's going to shoot, the person posing the biggest threat is going to be the first target. I don't for a minute claim that the sight of an armed citizen will not deter many would-be robbers, but there are certainly many who will press ahead and make that citizen their first victim. If you don't mind, I'll just choose not to make myself that target.

MrWesson
April 5, 2011, 10:03 AM
I have yet to hear of a case of an OCer being targeted(other than LEO).

If I am a criminal and I walk into a place with the intent to rob it(most dont run in with a gun) and see a OCer it puts me in a tough place.

My 2 choices are
Make the jump from robbery to murder someone and risk getting shot myself

Move on to the next place

Criminals aren't the brightest bunch but I would guess basic self preservation would take over. If its a rare mass shooting then id agree bullets are coming your way or it may deter the perp to pick a "better day" its hard to say for sure.

45-70 Ranger
April 5, 2011, 10:54 AM
This sounds much like a thread on BP for home defense that ran a week or so ago. Now I am not against the use of BP revolvers for defense. In fact, C&B revolvers are all I have for pistols now. But as I read the responces, it sure sounds like many folks are looking to justify their BP revolvers. I think that these weapons spoke for themselves years ago. Kinda loud, but they still do it well.:eek: Shucks, have fun with your weapons, be safe, and have fun.

Wade

Foto Joe
April 5, 2011, 11:43 AM
First to answer the question, yes. Also concealed from time to time, an '60 Sheriffs Model loaded with 30gr and RB's. This is a formidable weapon, but normally not my first choice. I have also open carried my Dragoon up in the mountains, but the weight of it tends to tire out the mule I'm riding on.

As far as the quandry of open carry makes you a target, I think that it can go both ways. If someone is pointing a gun at me because they view me as a threat (whether they fire or not), it's highly unlikely that I'm going to draw that weapon and successfully kill them. On the other hand, if I am just like all the other victims in the eyes of the perpetrator, I might just have a chance to live through the experience.

What I DO NOT want to do is make the situation worse. Worse could be getting myself or my loved ones killed. Personally, I don't like to fight fair when it comes to my survival, I will take every advantage that I can, including concealing the fact that I am armed.

My attitude is, if that gun clears leather, someone is going to die and my intention is that it not be me or mine.

Besides, on more than one occasion (one of which led me to being handcuffed by a Federal Marshal), I have been detained simply because I was wearing a visable firearm. Also, if you want to be on every China-Mart security camera within 60 seconds, walk into a big box store with a gun on your hip. Visible guns make people nervous and nervous people can cause you grief, again I reference a Federal Marshal.

nalioth
April 5, 2011, 11:52 AM
Visible guns make people nervousWhich is the primary reason that more folks need to exercise their rights and open carry. The more folks open carrying and not doing anything Hollywoodish will slowly but surely relieve all those frayed nerves.

Sure wish we had OC in Texas (Real OC, not the licensed OC that is currently being discussed in Austin)

Foto Joe
April 5, 2011, 12:05 PM
I am surprised to hear that Texas does not have open carry. Of all the states that do not, Texas is not one I would have guessed. I'm assuming that a Concealed Carry Permit would negate the issue, but how hard are those to obtain in Texas? Also, if you have a CCP are your required to only carry concealed in your state?

nalioth
April 5, 2011, 12:13 PM
I am surprised to hear that Texas does not have open carry. Of all the states that do not, Texas is not one I would have guessed. I'm assuming that a Concealed Carry Permit would negate the issue, but how hard are those to obtain in Texas? Also, if you have a CCP are your required to only carry concealed in your state?Perhaps you don't read as much of THR as you should :)

A bill to allow licensed open carry has been introduced in the Texas legislature this term. Right now, only concealed carry is legal with a permit and open carry in public isn't allowed at all.

Foto Joe
April 5, 2011, 12:28 PM
Perhaps you don't read as much of THR as you should

Touche'

"Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not. author unknown

I have fought a life long battle to cure my ignorance, sometimes though it feels like the malady might be terminal.

But seriously, I want to make sure I'm understanding your statement about open carry in public so humor me for a minute. What you're saying as I understand it is: Even with a valid Concealed Weapons Permit recognized by the state of Texas, you are forbidden to open carry and you must have the weapon hidden from view at all times?

Don't get me wrong, I AM NOT trashing Texas here, if it weren't for the summers down there, I'd love to live there.

MCgunner
April 5, 2011, 12:48 PM
The gun cannot be "noticeable to the general public" or something like that. If there's a lump in your pocket, it'd better look like you're happy to see me. :D They did back off the printing thing a bit, though, just the weapon cannot show, flash, whatever or you can be charged and permit yanked.

For a CHL in Texas, you need 15 hours of instruction/qualification and a background check, finger prints, 2 passport photos, and a blevy of paperwork to be notarized, and 140 bucks, I think it's still, though they have talked of reducing the fee and I think might have. NOW, when I reup, I won't have to take the reup class (12 hours IIRC). I've taken it three times, but they passed a deal that you only need take it every other reup now.

I can carry in a lot of other states that have reciprocity now. Have to go to Oregon this summer and they don't have reciprocity. All the tree hugging libs up there, I guess. I think they have OC, but I'm not going to try that. :D I figure a NAA mini in the pocket, perhaps, better judged by 12 than carried by 6, and I do have a super companion which I HAVE carried, so I guess I already have carried a cap and ball revolver come to think of it. :D

Foto Joe
April 5, 2011, 01:36 PM
This is all very interesting and I apolagize for drifting the thread, but I think information like this is important.

Both Arizona (secondary residence) and Wyoming (primary residence) passed Constitutional Carry recently. Basically stating that if you are legally able to own a handgun, then you are also legally within your rights to carry said handgun concealed without any additional permit/license etc. Both states have as far back as I can remember allowed open carry.

Luckily Texas recognizes my CCW's but I will definitely keep in mind that open carry is a no-no, period.

Pulp
April 5, 2011, 01:41 PM
As far as totin' a percussion gun, open or concealed, for a primary self defense gun, no. As much as I love my percussions, for a self defense firearm I'll carry my 1911.

I did keep a '51 Navy knockoff in my truck for awhile. When Oklahoma passed the law that businesses can't keep legal gunowners from having guns in their vehicles in company parking lots, I chose the '51 for the reason that it was the easiest (cheapest) to replace if stolen from my truck. Not a good reason, but it was the best I could come up with at the time.

I have mixed feelings on open carry. I'd like to see it pass in Oklahoma, but even if it does I'll still carry concealed. I'd just feel a bit more comfortable when the wind blows my shirttail up and exposed the gun. Don't take that to read I'm against open carry. I'd love to see it pass in Oklahoma.

MCgunner
April 5, 2011, 02:13 PM
As far as totin' a percussion gun, open or concealed, for a primary self defense gun, no. As much as I love my percussions, for a self defense firearm I'll carry my 1911.

So, you forgo the older antique for the newer antique? Bwaaaa, ha, ha...1911s, not for me. There have been many improvements on JMB's original and I prefer reliable/affordable guns that don't weigh a ton for CCW. Heck, I figure a cap falling off in the hammer isn't any more disabling than a jam in a 1911 jammamatic (had two). I pocket carry either an Ultralite .38 or a modern, proven reliable subcompact high cap 9. I just think it'd be cool to dress up once in a while for a trip to walmart. :D But, maybe not. Interesting to hear all the opinions, thread drifts aside. If I ever get relocated to the hill country, I can just carry when I'm working around the place, I guess. :D

scrat
April 5, 2011, 04:09 PM
heck ya. any of them. im sure i would switch around from the WALKER to the 1851 heck ya

Cowboy2
April 5, 2011, 06:52 PM
No. When I carry a gun for self defense, I want the best and most reliable thing I can afford, each and every time. Pistols that have been obsolete for 150 years don't meet that criteria. Shootouts are life and death, I'm not looking for handicaps.

I like BP guns, but they belong at the range and in the woods. If you magically transported all the old gunslingers into the modern world this afternoon, they'd each buy an automatic before the sun set.

rocky branch
April 5, 2011, 08:05 PM
I been using BP revolvers since 1967.

The idea of using one for personal or family defense is delusional if not childish.
Take a toy gun to a gunfight.

I been in combat. It's the quick or the dead.
I've had way too many misfires to ever stake any thing serious on a C&B BP pistol.
Never had a misfire with a modern weapon.
This stuff is real-not some kid game.

DoubleDeuce 1
April 5, 2011, 10:19 PM
I agree with Mykeal, 100 %.

Why make yourself the intial target? If the bad guys don't know who is armed, it complicates things for them. I am in favor of open carry, if that is what makes you feel comfortable. In California, open carry means UNLOADED. It wouldn't take the criminal element long to figure out that those who open carry legally, carry unloaded. There is no way someone will be able to speed load a blackpowder revolver in a critical situation. It just ain't gonna happen. A good crook will be able to look at the face of your cylinder and see the revolver is empty. And don't forget, an adversary can cover approximately 21-24 feet in about a second. Most people would not even be able to clear leather in that amount of time after processing what was happening. The Walter Mitty types would be left mumbling to themselves, spitting out their teeth, and wondering what went wrong. Real life is not what you see on television.

Out hunting or on private property I would be fine with the open carry, loaded or unloaded. But for the sake of strutting around like a peacock in heat and showing off all the brass trim and square backed trigger guards, I know is asking for trouble. There will be someone who will take it from you just to prove they can.

hogshead
April 5, 2011, 10:33 PM
It has never crossed my mind that someone would take my 1858 from me. They may take but you can bet they will be sore.Thing makes a heck of a club when its empty.

cavman
April 5, 2011, 10:43 PM
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

Please provide us with any confirmed incidents where "the bad guy took out the open carriers first in the commission of a crime".

Kind of what you were asking for..

nalioth
April 5, 2011, 10:47 PM
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html


Please provide us with any confirmed incidents where "the bad guy took out the open carriers first in the commission of a crime".
Kind of what you were asking for..
From the article:
The president of Wisconsin Carry, Nik Clark, says 100's of thousands of people open carry and he's never heard of anything like this.

"So it really is a very unusual situation, very unique," Clark said.I will still stand by my statement, as the linked event was a statistical 'blip on the radar'.

Busyhands94
April 5, 2011, 10:59 PM
i dream of a day when i will have a 58 Remington on my hip in public legally. i will need to get out of Cali though. i guarantee nobody would dare screw with you unless they wanted to be jumping over hot coals in hell.

SAA
April 6, 2011, 12:11 AM
i dream of a day when i will have a 58 Remington on my hip in public legally. i will need to get out of Cali though

Not to worry. Carrying a 58 Remington open in public is perfectly legal, as long as it is unloaded and you are not within 1000 feet of a school or in a Federal building.:scrutiny:

Cosmoline
April 6, 2011, 01:05 AM
I don't have a cap and ball revolver, but I have open carried my 11 bore blunderbuss and will again this spring.

arcticap
April 6, 2011, 02:15 AM
It does sound like California is only a "psuedo open carry state" and not the type of wholly open carry state that the OP was alluding to when he posted the question.
That California type of open carry sounds like a prescription for how to be
"gun jacked".

Billy Shears
April 6, 2011, 10:25 AM
I been using BP revolvers since 1967.

The idea of using one for personal or family defense is delusional if not childish.
Take a toy gun to a gunfight.

I been in combat. It's the quick or the dead.
I've had way too many misfires to ever stake any thing serious on a C&B BP pistol.
Never had a misfire with a modern weapon.
This stuff is real-not some kid game.
Spot on! I can't believe the number of people here who seem not only willing, but eager to carry a BP revolver for self defense. What in the world for? Self defense is far too serious a matter to engage in flights of fancy or to do something just because it would be "cool" or "fun." BP revolvers are obsolete. They are subject to a whole range of malfunctions that do not plague cartridge revolvers. Caps can slip off the nipples. Fragments of fired caps can fall down between the cylinder and recoil shield, binding up the cylinder. Moisture can invade the chambers. These things don't happen all, or even most of the time, but they can happen, and they can't with modern cartridge firing handguns, loaded with good quality ammo. Pistoleers of Civil War and immediate post Civil War era carried cap and ball guns because there wasn't anything better. You'll note as well that it was also common for many to carry more than one gun, and a large knife as a backup, in case their weapon failed. Once cartridge firing guns had been around long enough to prove their reliability, cap and ball revolvers faded from use rather quickly.

Leave the BP revolvers to recreational shooting. For defending one's life -- and you only have the one to defend, so don't handicap yourself by taking unnecessary chances -- you should choose the best, most modern, most efficient arms available. If you can carry, pick a good modern DA revolver or autoloader.

DuncanSA
April 6, 2011, 11:27 AM
All "might happen" stuff here. BP is fun, but in real life I feel comfortable with my .45
acp tucked away out of view.

One-Time
April 6, 2011, 07:48 PM
If nothing else was available heck yeah, the gun you have is better than the one you dont when you need it

Busyhands94
April 6, 2011, 08:15 PM
i agree with you One-Time, i would rather have a cap and ball revolver than nothing. besides, a .44 round ball at 900 FPS is not exactly a BB gun. sure it is not as good and as reliable as a modern firearm like a 1911 or a glock but if i had to choose between a cap n' ball and nothing i would choose the gun. if you are not allowed to own a modern firearm because you are a minor or a convicted criminal who wants to stay legal then a cap n' ball is better than a pellet gun or a knife.

Billy Shears
April 6, 2011, 08:16 PM
If nothing else was available heck yeah, the gun you have is better than the one you dont when you need it
If nothing else were available, sure. A cap and ball revolver would be better than no gun at all if one were under attack. But let's be realistic here; for how many of us would no other gun be available? And if open carry with a modern firearm is illegal in your area, you may reason that a BP gun will be fine, since it's in a different legal class. Let me tell you, being a cop, I know that most other cops are regrettably unfamiliar with such details of the law. They shouldn't be, but they are. They will see you as someone carrying "a gun," and you are likely to find yourself arrested and charged with carrying a firearm, even if you can beat it later in court because technically, it's not a firearm according to the BATF, and your local state and city legal statutes don't include restrictions on it. It's quite likely that all that would only be cleared up after your arrest.

The one realistic exception might be for someone who can't own a firearm, for whatever reason, and wants to keep a BP arm for self defense in the home. But even there... Well, let's put it this way: Wild Bill Hickok continued to favor his Colt Navy .36s, even after cartridge revolvers were available (and he appears to have been the exception rather than the rule), but he also had the habit of shooting them empty every morning, and then cleaning and reloading them. He did that to ensure that the loads were fresh, with no damp in the chambers that would cause a misfire. That was a much, much greater danger with loose powder and ball in the chambers than it is with a self-contained metallic cartridge. If you opt to use a cap and ball revolver, are you able to maintain yours so rigorously? If not, you may be better off with another sort of weapon. The longer you let it sit, the more likely it is to go "click" instead of "boom" when you need it (or maybe "pop" when the cap explodes, but doesn't ignite the powder charge).

And anyway, I say again, how many of us really have no modern gun available for carry and/or self defense? Not many, I'd warrant. If you do have one, frankly, it's rather foolish deliberately to choose a less efficient, less reliable firearm with which to defend one's very life.

Voodoochile
April 6, 2011, 08:53 PM
I do on the Hunt Club property on a normal basis, why not.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 6, 2011, 10:31 PM
Black powder guns don't get the respect they deserve. They get blamed when their owners don't know what the hell they are doing. :fire:

A few of the guys here and on the black powder defense thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=584788) have mentioned black Powder reliability in a negative light. Perhaps they should take a look at their skill, proficiency and knowledge before blaming the guns and the obsolete technology. The guns are not modern, but they work just as good today as when they were introduced 150 years ago. and if yours don't, the gun you do not know how to properly load and care for is blameless. It's your own fault.

I acknowledge that black powder has limitations when it comes to reloading and cleaning, but that is all. If one is not proficient with their weapons they have no business using them for defense weapons. Black Powder Revolvers for Defense (http://blackpowdersmoke.com/smokey/black-powder-revolvers-for-defense-and-protection/)

I personally feel that if a person is having misfires, then he or she should take a look at their skill at maintaining and loading the weapon, their personal knowledge and skill instead of blaming these fine weapons of old.

I use my Uberti 1858 New Army 44's for defense. I take extra care in loading and maintaining them so I have a high degree of confidence in their reliability. Simply put, they don't misfire. They did at first, as I was learning what I needed to know to achieve confidence and proficiency. My beginner's headaches were improper fitted hands and improperly adjusted mainsprings. After I moved past those problems, I had success with my revolvers.

I even go as far as dropping my revs into a bucket of water and after 20 minutes remove it and fire of all six shots without a misfire. I know the revolvers will fire properly, I never doubt it. No misfires yet.

In order to keep the summer humidity from fouling the powder charge, I had take extra precautions. I don't pinch over sized caps onto the nipples. The caps fit properly and are sealed with clear fingernail polish and the balls are sealed with a thin layer of Crisco, not gooped. I use a Q-tip to apply just enough Crisco to form a seal between the ball and chamber walls. After 20 minutes under water they will fire. After six months of sweltering humidity, they will fire.

If there is a uniform ring shaved around the ball of each cylinder chamber and the caps are snuggly fitted onto the nipples, added precautions such as mine can be considered as overkill. It is just that if I am going to err, I prefer to err on the safe side.

If anyone here is so sure that a black powder firearm is such a timid, toy gun or questions its reliability, try standing in front of one of my Remmies after I remove one from a bucket of water and squeeze the trigger. Or for that matter, stand in front anyone else's obsolete toy guns that is proficient and skilled at caring for and loading their obsolete weapons. In your final moments, you may have a change of conviction............:cuss:

Smokin_Gun
April 7, 2011, 12:06 AM
Hell yeah I'd carry, have carried, and still do carry a C&B Rev for personal or home protection. I know my Revs and how to use them ... tested a rev loaded for a year and a half with only the Shaved ball pressed on top of 30gr of fffg Black Powder and proper fitting caps, they all went bang no glitches.
I also wanna mention that factory original conversions and for the new replicas Kirst or Howell Conversion originals are still Black Powder Revs no matter how you look at it...so what's wrong with a BP Rev that one does not concider a toy?
The M1911A1 is one of my favored handguns so is a Browning High Power, and a Sig Sauer .45ACP, but they are still automatic and quite capable of jamming do to conditions or ammo or a defective shooter...same same as the BP Revs I guess, onlly Revolvers don't usually jam if in proper working condition...RIGHT?
:banghead:

Hell yeah I'll carry a BP Rev ... :cool:

Busyhands94
April 7, 2011, 12:46 AM
Black Powder Smoke you are right. if you take care of your firearm, load it with quality powder, balls, and caps, and put grease over the cylinders and even seal the caps it will go bang when you want it to. i own a cap and ball derringer that has literally NEVER had a misfire on the gun's part. never. the only 2 were due to poor quality caps. i have put at least 1000 shots through it and she always goes bang when i pull the trigger. now if i could get a revolver that reliable i would love it! i am actually planning on getting a Remington new army unfinished pistol kit and building it with my father, it will not only get him to stop working for a while but the end result will be something we can say that we built together. so here's the kit http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_162_194&products_id=3535

Smokin_Gun
April 7, 2011, 01:44 AM
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud



I like yur Reply ... but more over I like what you say in yur signature ... authenicated by Sigmund Freud ;)

Billy Shears
April 7, 2011, 08:20 AM
If anyone here is so sure that a black powder firearm is such a timid, toy gun or questions its reliability, try standing in front of one of my Remmies after I remove one from a bucket of water and squeeze the trigger. Or for that matter, stand in front anyone else's obsolete toy guns that is proficient and skilled at caring for and loading their obsolete weapons. In your final moments, you may have a change of conviction............
Don't be absurd. I wouldn't stand in front of anyone shooting a reproduction brown bess or a medieval longbow either. That doesn't make them the best choice for self defense! Pick something modern, that is easier to reload quickly if you need it. If you can shoot a BP gun well, and you've never had a misfire, good for you, but let me ask you, with your very LIFE on the line, why would you deliberately choose a less efficient, harder to maintain, harder to shoot, slower to reload firearm, when you can carry a modern gun that carries just as well, shoots just as accurately, has faster recovery time between shots (not being a SA), and is much quicker to reload, if you need it.? What is the benefit in doing so? What is it that remotely compensates for the increased level of difficulty, and makes it worth increasing the risk to your life over? I have to admit to never actually having become involved in a gunfight. But I am a cop, and have trained for it, and believe I understand the realities and the tactical considerations moderately well as a result, and my impression is that for any confrontation involving one's life, it's a good idea to stack the deck as much in one's favor as is humanly possible, not unnecessarily handicap yourself with less efficient, less user-friendly tools. That means using the best, most up to date equipment available. If all you've got is an obsolete weapon, well then make the most of it. Certainly the old guns are still deadly, and can be effective in skilled hands. But if you have any sort of choice, why wouldn't you choose the best tools available? This makes no sense to me.

Hagen442
April 7, 2011, 08:46 AM
My First Choice Concealed & Open Carry is a AWA Sheriff's Model 45 Colt.
"Fast is fine but accuracy is everything" -- Wyatt Earp
Loaded with 6 Rounds of 30 Gr of FFF APP (Black Sub) & 200 Gr RNFP Bullets

My Barbeque/Wedding Pistols are always loaded with Holy Black


Hagen

Billy Shears
April 7, 2011, 08:59 AM
Black Powder Smoke you are right. if you take care of your firearm, load it with quality powder, balls, and caps, and put grease over the cylinders and even seal the caps it will go bang when you want it to. i own a cap and ball derringer that has literally NEVER had a misfire on the gun's part. never. the only 2 were due to poor quality caps. i have put at least 1000 shots through it and she always goes bang when i pull the trigger. now if i could get a revolver that reliable i would love it!
Why can't you? I've had no problem doing it. I own, or have owned an S&W Model 24, 25, 28, 29, and M1917, as well as a Colt Detective Special, M1917, and Trooper Mk.III, and all of them have had at least a thousand rounds through them, with no misfires. What modern revolvers are you shooting that won't manage this?

Carl N. Brown
April 7, 2011, 09:25 AM
Open v Concealed. One of the economic arguments is that with concealed deterrents, like LoJack in a car, if the bad guy does not know who has the deterrent, for every person with the deterrent four or five people without it receive the benefit of the bad guy not being sure who has it. Open carry may deter an unarmed attacker; open carry may make you the first target of an armed attacker. Quite frankly there are no stats on that from real life shootings.

BP for SD. That said, I have open carried a BP revolver on family property for self defense when that was all I had to carry simply because it is easier to draw from an open holster than concealed. Rabid animals are not deterred by the thought of a concealed deterrent.

MCgunner
April 7, 2011, 10:23 AM
Wedding pistols? Now, there's a thought. I'm to be married Wednesday. Haven't talked to the church about wearing my weapons, though.....:what:

arcticap
April 7, 2011, 11:19 AM
But if you have any sort of choice, why wouldn't you choose the best tools available? This makes no sense to me.

The poll isn't asking about which is always better but rather it asks about which is preferred for open carry occasionally.
Some folks really want to open carry cowboy style with a single action revolver on their hip.
It's the choice that some folks actually do daily and what other folks dream about doing and hope to do someday with their C&B's if given the chance.
There really isn't much of any difference between single action revolvers of any style.
Many folks here are comfortable and trust their C&B guns enough that they've voted accordingly.
And that's for a good reason because not only can C&B's be reliable but folks can be very proficient with them. Maybe even more so than with other guns. :)

PRM
April 7, 2011, 11:32 AM
Not opposed to carrying a C&B. I have and do on some outings/activities. Especially if I'm on the farm.

Open carry ~ I don't open carry any weapon in a public setting. I like concealed. Less attention, no advertisement. We do have the option of either carry (concealed or open) just my preference.

One-Time
April 7, 2011, 02:03 PM
lets look at this historically-

Are any of the hundreds of thousands of souls killed by BP firearms any less dead?

end of discussion

NavyLCDR
April 7, 2011, 02:15 PM
Purely speculative as I can't open carry in Texas and usually conceal an auto pistol for practical reasons. But, if I could open carry, I thought I might occasionally carry my 5.5" .51 Navy just because I can. Fresh loads, it always goes boom and with the proper cap size, I don't seem to have the cap in the hammer problem. Then, too, I have a flap style crossdraw for my ROA.

I carry my 1851 Navy revolver for special occasions such as re-enlistments and open carry meetings. Funny - I have a leather holster that I bought in Baghdad to carry my M-9 in while I was there. Really funny is that the snap for the safety strap has the seal of the State of Oklahoma on it! Anyway, I get home and find out my 1851 Navy fits almost perfectly in it!

So, sometimes I carry my 1851 Navy in the holster that I bought in Baghdad cross draw, just like it's supposed to be, because the revolver back then was the backup weapon to the sword which would be carried on the strong side.

I carry fully loaded with caps on all nipples and the hammer down on a safety peg between the chambers. After the special occasion, I've left the cylinders loaded for up to 6 months before shooting them and they are just as reliable after 6 months as if they were freshly loaded.

Wedding pistols? Now, there's a thought. I'm to be married Wednesday. Haven't talked to the church about wearing my weapons, though.....

I got married in the chapel on base... so no opportunity for the dress up gun then... :-(

Cowboy2
April 7, 2011, 02:51 PM
When bad things happen (and the need to use a gun for self-defense certainly qualifies), they tend to happen in bunches. No one is going to call you that morning and let you know today is the day. Will a cap and ball kill? Beyond any doubt. Are they generally reliable in even a novice's hands? Yeah. But like I said, troubles love company, and bad guys don't often advertise their intentions. If I get knocked down hard in a struggle, I don't want to have to worried about unseated caps. If me or the gun gets knocked into a puddle or have a drink thrown on us, I don't want to have to worry about wet powder or dead caps. And if you ever have a chainfire, what do you suppose the odds are that it'll be the one time your life is at stake? Again, when things start happening, they tend to come in heaps.

Me? Like I said earlier, if things ever come to a shooting, I'm not looking for handicaps.

MCgunner
April 7, 2011, 03:07 PM
One thing I failed to mention, when I IWB, I also have a strong side service caliber weapon (usually .38 or 9x19) in a pocket and a mini revolver weak side. If I were to strap on the BP open carry, I'd still have that 9x19 in my pocket. Of course, with a need to shoot, I'd draw the Navy, fastest to get at, but if I needed a reload, I'd have a modern NY reload on me that'd be quite quick. I don't forsee the need for reloading in most any SD scenario, but heck, you can't predict what will happen when the poop hits the propeller.

NavyLT, I'm in Corpus. I've been watching the Navy fly boys play over the house all day in FA18s. Man, they're putting on a show! I had to work outside just to watch. :D They look like less than 1000 feet off the deck movin' 400 mph at least and tossin' those things around. WOW. :D Ain't quite figured out why they'd be over the city like that, but it sure makes for a good show. I see the newbs in their prop trainers all the time, but this is a special treat. :D

BlackPowderSmoke
April 7, 2011, 03:15 PM
If I get knocked down hard in a struggle, I don't want to have to worried about unseated caps.
Make sure they are firmly seated. If still concerned, seal the caps to the nipple with bore butter or clear finger nail polish.

If me or the gun gets knocked into a puddle or have a drink thrown on us, I don't want to have to worry about wet powder or dead caps.
Once again make sure the caps are secured to the nipples.
Be sure you have a uniformly shaved ball. If not or if concerned, seal the edges of the ball and the chamber in the wall with something, bore butter, or some kind of lube.

And if you ever have a chainfire, what do you suppose the odds are that it'll be the one time your life is at stake?


If you have both ends sealed, there is no chance of a chainfire (http://blackpowdersmoke.com/smokey/preventing-chain-fires/).

Billy Shears
April 7, 2011, 03:51 PM
lets look at this historically-

Are any of the hundreds of thousands of souls killed by BP firearms any less dead?

end of discussion
Not even remotely.

Are any of the millions of souls killed by swords any less dead? No. Would you choose a sword as a defensive weapon today? Didn't think so. Is Goliath less dead for being killed with a sling stone instead of a modern handgun bullet? No. Would you choose a sling for self defense? Didn't think so.

So much for that line of argument.

Let's not be absurdly simplistic. Are black powder weapons deadly? Beyond doubt. A .36 caliber round ball through your heart will kill you every bit as dead today as it would have in 1861. That's not even at issue. What is at issue is are you better armed with a five-shot, slow-firing, even slower-reloading revolver (basically it won't be reloaded in a firefight at all -- if it runs empty, you now have a short club, not a gun), that fires non-expanding, round lead projectiles; or a modern DA revolver or autoloader, that can be shot more rapidly, reloaded orders of magnitude more rapidly, and which fires much more effective, modern hollowpoint ammo. If you're answer to that is yes, how do you justifify it? If your answer is a more realistic no, then the second question is, with your life at stake or the lives of your loved ones, why would you deliberately choose the less effective weapon for self defense?

BlackPowderSmoke
April 7, 2011, 03:55 PM
So what percentage of encounters go past the point of reloading? How many of those circumstances will allow you time to reload a centerfire revolver? Especially when the heat is one and you are in a hyped up state of mind and having to get the bullets into your hand and into the gun?

PRM
April 7, 2011, 03:59 PM
Interesting Poll.

On a black powder forum where most individuals posting are familiar with C&B revolvers, shoot them, and know their limitations ~ 71% said yes to carrying them.

I been on some of the other forums where posts are flamed just for mentioning single action.

Guess it comes down to personal preference and experience. Seems those who shoot them are the most favorable to them.

As far as choosing a less effective weapon ~ we all do that each time we leave our rifles at home and choose to carry a sidearm.

Billy Shears
April 7, 2011, 04:07 PM
So what percentage of encounters go past the point of reloading? How many of those circumstances will allow you time to reload a centerfire revolver?
What's the percentage of CCW holders who ever have to draw their gun to defend themselves at all? Does that mean we shouldn't carry a gun?

Look, it's a choice, and you can carry what you want. But what I'm scratching my head over -- truly -- is why you would deliberately choose a handgun that offers no advantages over a modern handgun -- not of concealment, not of shootability, not of accuracy, not of reliability, not of ergonomics, not of firepower, not of stopping power, not of anything -- when you can, just as easily, carry a modern gun in it's place.

Self defense, it seems to me, is a time to be serious, and not to engage in gunfighter fantasies or other flights of fancy, or to base a decision on what would be cool or fun stylish or just different from the herd. It's a time to take a deadly serious look at the most likely threats, and choose the best weapons available with which to confront them, if necessary. I just don't see how a BP gun could, even remotely, be considered the best self defense weapon for any conceivable threat today.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 7, 2011, 04:22 PM
Yep, it is a choice. Black powder ain't about being cool or gunfighter fantasies. It is the choice for some of us for whatever reason. BP is economical and the guns (at least the Remmies) are simple to maintain and get the best out of. The guns are cheaper and come with no red tape. and they can be just as reliable as a modern firearm and fire power is not an issue as they are just as potent as their modern counterparts.

As for concealment, a 44 calibre chopped belly gun will do nicely or a pocket Remmy or Colt.

MCgunner
April 7, 2011, 04:38 PM
I have a .31 pocket Remmy, but it's pretty weak. It puts out, energy wise, about what a .22LR high speed will put out, bit more diameter of course. But, I wouldn't wanna get shot with it. I've never carried it, though. I HAVE carried my Super Companion NAA in folding grip and it shoots quite well. I have a spare cylinder for it for a quick reload. I prefer a larger revolver, though, and my Black Widow .22 mag is a good bit more accurate beyond 10 yards.

I bought a 7" barrel for my 5.5" Navy. Now, I was going to make a snubby, but the danged barrel turned out to be pretty accurate and i kinda lost interest in cutting it down. The 5.5" is pretty compact, though, carried IWB. Still, I prefer my 3" Taurus 66 .357 magnum, more convenient if nothing else. I really haven't been tempted to carry any other BP concealed other than my Super Companion, but hey, I won't disparage other folks for doing so. I'm just lazy and live in a city where I can't go out back ans shoot 'em dry now and then, at least for the time being.

Billy Shears
April 7, 2011, 04:58 PM
Yep, it is a choice. Black powder ain't about being cool or gunfighter fantasies. It is the choice for some of us for whatever reason. BP is economical and the guns (at least the Remmies) are simple to maintain and get the best out of. The guns are cheaper and come with no red tape. and they can be just as reliable as a modern firearm and fire power is not an issue as they are just as potent as their modern counterparts.
Sorry, but I cannot agree with that statement. Determining stopping power is far from an exact science, and debate rages to this day, but most authorities, from what I have read, put the "stopping power" of the cap and ball .44s close to the old .38 special round nose lead bullet. Velocity from an 1858 Remington, depending on the weight of the bullet, and of the powder charge, will vary, but generally comes in south of 1000fps, IIRC. A quick google search turns up an article wherein an 1860 Colt replica was fired, with a 148 grain round ball, over 35 grains of powder, and coming out of an 8in bbl at 820fps. Sorry, but you're simply not going to convince me that that is as potent as, say, a 230 grain .45ACP hydra shok, moving a bit faster, at 850fps, and which, moreover, will penetrate just as deep and expand to something close to .70 caliber once it enters the body, something the ball from a BP revolver won't do.

As for concealment, a 44 calibre chopped belly gun will do nicely or a pocket Remmy or Colt.
And out of a short barrel, you'll lose even more of your already less than impressive velocity.

Dude, seriously, you're better off carrying a modern revolver, with one extra round in the chamber, since you can carry it fully loaded, firing a heavier bullet, at greater velocity, and with expansion to make it at least a bit more effective.

"Just as potent?" Sorry, I don't think so.

nalioth
April 7, 2011, 05:25 PM
To get us back on track, this is a "Would you open carry?" thread, not a "Why you shouldn't" thread.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 7, 2011, 05:34 PM
Sorry, but you're simply not going to convince me that that is as potent as, say, a 230 grain Sorry, but you're simply not going to convince me that that is as potent as, say, a 230 grain .45ACP hydra shok, moving a bit faster, at 850fps, and which, moreover, will penetrate just as deep and expand to something close to .70 caliber once it enters the body, something the ball from a BP revolver won't do.
, moving a bit faster, at 850fps, and which, moreover, will penetrate just as deep and expand to something close to .70 caliber once it enters the body, something the ball from a BP revolver won't do.


Sounds like a valid point to me. Along with the price of the gun, 45 cal ammo is high. I am sure they are proud of.45ACP hydra shok ammo. I surely couldn't afford to shoot very often. I'm a poor boy. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/shame.gif

BlackPowderSmoke
April 7, 2011, 05:38 PM
And out of a short barrel, you'll lose even more of your already less than impressive velocity.
In a close encounter, I would think a 44 cal moving a bit slower would still do the trick, but your point is valid never the less.

Billy Shears
April 7, 2011, 05:59 PM
To get us back on track, this is a "Would you open carry?" thread, not a "Why you shouldn't" thread.
Those two questions are inextricably linked. In other words would you do X if X isn't really the best idea in the world? If it's not, then would you do it anyway? If so, why?

Sounds like a valid point to me. Along with the price of the gun, 45 cal ammo is high. I am sure they are proud of.45ACP hydra shok ammo. I surely couldn't afford to shoot very often. I'm a poor boy.
Sure the price of factory ammo is high. But you only need the factory ammo for carry. For practice, you can handload, and although I have not done any sort of direct comparison, I can't imagine it costs that much more to handload smokeless powder and cast bullets into empty brass cases, and put primers in them, than it does to load black powder and cast bullets into a percussion revolver cylinder, and put caps on it.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 7, 2011, 06:02 PM
On this type of thread, those of us that carry cap and ball for defense find ourselves having to constantly justify our decisions every time. Every once in a while it can get heated, especially with references to toy guns, us being childish because of our preferences and such.

What gets my goat is when a portion of those that can not get the best of their black powder firearms blame it on the guns instead of taking responsibility for their own shortcomings in getting the maximum performance out of C&B weapons. Instead they attack the black powder weapons and those that prefer them.

Often times, guys that carry bp weapons for defense stay off of the threads because they know they will be attacked and flamed for their choice.

Sometimes it is easy to let it go and sometimes it is not. I respect the decisions of others in regard to the firearms they carry, I wish everyone else did also.

Oyeboten
April 7, 2011, 08:32 PM
I live in a decaying downtown Setting where, though technically Legal, Open Carry would likely cause too much interest or attentions and Police interventions for my liking, so, I have never Open Carried here.

But, if I did Open Carry, I'd be entirely happy doing so with my Remington New Model .44 or my Colt 1860 Army.

I have CCW'd with those and felt contended, but, all in all, practically speaking, I really do prefer a short Barrel or a Snubby, for CCW in Urban settings.

I am a lot faster getting on to the point-of-Target and having my Shots go where I wish, with Short Barrel or 'Snub Nose' Revolver, or with a Colt .45 Automatic than I am with any Long Barrel SA or DA Models.

I CCW'd with the WALKER, and, with my 3rd Dragoon a few times just for fun.

No question those are fine and effective Arms...but, they have a lot of mass or inertia and long Barrels, which is maybe not a plus if one needs to respond on an instant to close-quarters developments.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 7, 2011, 10:11 PM
i am actually planning on getting a Remington new army unfinished pistol kit and building it with my father, it will not only get him to stop working for a while but the end result will be something we can say that we built together. so here's the kit http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=3535

BusyHands, Does the barrel come already screwed into the frame? Just a thought, but for a few bucks more you can get a steel framed Pietta from Cabella's, tear it apart and put it back together. Of course you may get to finish the grips to a perfect fit with the kit.

Some folks completely disassemble the revolver to the frame every time they shoot it. I used to one of those folks. I eased up from that regiment as it is unnecessary, but old habits die hard, especially when it is so much fun. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/bliss.gif

Busyhands94
April 8, 2011, 12:19 AM
it does come screwed to the frame. i don't want to pay extra to buy a completed pietta when i can get what i want for much cheaper and finish it the way i want to. besides, i love brass framed cap n' ball revolvers and i have been wanting one since i was 10 years old. if i were to buy a finished cap n' ball i could not build it with my dad. he told me that this summer he would build a gun with me and that is why i want a kit, i need to get him away from his desk and computer and off his crackberry and spending time with his son building something awesome.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 8, 2011, 12:31 AM
I hate to continue to stray from the topic of this thread, but I have never tried a kit, so I am curious... The internals need polishing just as in a production gun, the barrel is already screwed in, so what is there to finish, the grips?

arcticap
April 8, 2011, 12:37 AM
Every revolver kit is different but the thread below details the process of completing a Spiller & Burr revolver kit.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=450555&highlight=spiller

Other kits are almost totally complete and only need some exterior finishing.
Each Dixie kit has user reviews. Below are the categories of Dixie kit guns:

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_162&osCsid=d9e713de16f830c0d869d7ad149a64d0

BlackPowderSmoke
April 8, 2011, 12:43 AM
Oh, I see now. Thanks Arcticap.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 8, 2011, 01:01 AM
lets look at this historically-

Are any of the hundreds of thousands of souls killed by BP firearms any less dead?

end of discussion

I suppose a large portion of the ones killed by black powder firearms since the introduction of rimfire and centerfire cartridges are in a kind of self generated hell of regret or purgatory... Filled with anger and regret that they were denied the honor of getting blown away by a more modern firearm. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/shame.gif Poor souls...http://www.pic4ever.com/images/bore.gif

DuncanSA
April 8, 2011, 02:30 PM
With the greatest respect to all contributers to this thread, what you carry when your life is on the line is your personal choice. I have a number of BP revolvers and have very few misfires - I have also had misfires from centre fire guns when one hits the occasional dud primer; less misfires here though, and I am talking of thousands of rounds.

After about 40 years in police and military I have pretty well settled on my carry gun which is a .45 Colt govt. model made in the mid '70s. I carry it concealed, as I would rather be the guy who springs the nasty surprise than the recipient.

CoRoMo
April 8, 2011, 03:04 PM
I voted 'NO', but only because I have more preferable options. If I didn't have those options, I'd certainly have no reason not to carry a BP revolver.

Donny
April 8, 2011, 03:53 PM
I always love it when this topic comes up because I learn something about carrying a pistol/revolver. Would I open carry? Yes, and I have when hunting and fishing. Have I in town?, no way. I live in gun friendly NH but that doesn't mean that the local folks wouldn't get wierded out by it and the local cops stop to ask me why I was playing cowboy. I don't want the stares or the hasseles. Would I carry a cap and ball concealed?, sure! They are bulky and and not easy to carry concealed but with the right clothing and holster it can be done discretly. Where I live it is highly unlikely that I'd run into gang bangers with tech 9's so 5 or 6 shots would be plenty. As far as adequit power, I don't buy into the "they are too enemic" arguement. An 1858 Remington loaded with 25 to 30 grains of powder and a 200 grain conical bullet comes very close to a .45 acp round out of a compact pistol. A colt loaded with 30 grains of powder and a round ball is on par with the .38 special +P which is no slouch and probably saved the .38 from obscurity. There is enough anacdotal evidence that the round ball going better than 600 feet per second is deadly to be sure. As powerful on paper as modern rounds?, no, but thats comparing apples and oranges. Having said all that, if I lived in a high risk urban area with a high crime rate I would leave the cap and ball at home and carry my .38 with +P rounds. But if all I had was a Colt or Remington reproduction then I'd load and maintain it carefully and still feel like I had a fighting chance.

Don

arcticap
April 8, 2011, 04:12 PM
From what I understand, an unlicensed non-resident visitor to New Hampshire would only be able to open carry. So NH is one of the states where it may be safer to transport a C&B to rather than a modern handgun. Especially since transporting modern handguns through Mass. & N.Y. can be considered risky. But if it's an unloaded cap & ball being transported then N.H. is a good destination for open carry. However it would need to be unloaded in a motor vehicle. Vermont is great too since a license is not required for anyone to carry concealed or open there! :)

Donny
April 8, 2011, 04:21 PM
Oddly, Vermont with it's liberal politics is more gun friendly than traditionally conservative NH. Although, Mass transplants have made it a more purple state. You are quite right about open vs. concealed in NH. Concealed carry requires a permit for residents only. Open carry in the many small and rural towns in the state would probably present few if any problems. In a town of any size however, the police are likely to question your intentions. New Hampshire's carry permit is not reciprocal to any area states with the possible exception of Vermont but I'd have to double check that.

Don

arcticap
April 8, 2011, 04:36 PM
It does bring up a potentially valid reason to consider a cap & ball for defense. Reciprocity laws, or rather the lack of them make transporting cap & balls less risky to some extent. Also some states may be less hostile to possessing them verses a modern pistol.
It's one of those legal factors to consider for when a person is on the road, away from their home state and ready to check into a hotel room. :)

Donny
April 8, 2011, 04:43 PM
Prior to getting my concealed carry permit I would carry a cap and ball when hunting. The problem was how do I get it to the woods loaded? I spoke to a retired policeman who lives two doors down from me. He told me as long as I took the cylinder off the frame and transported it in a seperate container than the frame I would be inside the law. Out of staters would probably be safe doing the same thing.

Don

ForumSurfer
April 8, 2011, 04:46 PM
For self defense? Only if it was all I had left.

I don't own one anymore. The one I owned, I put maybe 50 rounds down range.

I'm about to get myself another BP pistol, as soon as I figure out what to get. But I'd never carry anything for self defense that I haven't ran drills and practiced with for at least 500+ rounds.

nalioth
April 8, 2011, 04:46 PM
Also some states may be less hostile to possessing them verses a modern pistol.Except when they're loaded, they're considered a "deadly weapon", just like a club or other implement deemed so by the state's law.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 8, 2011, 04:55 PM
California's requirement to have the weapon unloaded in order to legally open carry sounds about as logical as another ridiculous policy that originated on the west coast and spread eastward.

In most National Forests, it is okay to gold prospect as long as you don't dig a hole. Gold pan only!! No shovels or digging tools allowed. :banghead:

Sounds like intellectual products of the same group of bureaucratic idiots. Both policies defy logic. What good is an unloaded gun? About as useless as tits on a boar hog. :cuss:

Donny
April 8, 2011, 04:58 PM
Forumsurfer,

I have put more than 500 rounds down range with a few of my cap and ball revolvers. I can say with confidence that they are very reliable. Occasionally a Colt model will choke on a spent cap but I have never had a Remington bind up on a cap. The biggest what if with a cap and ball is the springs. They are often brittle and tend to brake. This has only happened to me once or twice that I recall in the many years that I've been shooting them. I'll say again, if I were in a high risk, high crime area then the modern double action .38 would be on my side. In less threatening venues a well cared for carefully loaded cap and ball in experienced hands is darn good insurance.

Don

ForumSurfer
April 8, 2011, 05:01 PM
I have put more than 500 rounds down range with a few of my cap and ball revolvers. I can say with confidence that they are very reliable.

In my case, the 500 rounds is to prove the shooter's proficiency, not the firearm's reliability. ;)

If I switch platforms completely, I bump that number up to 1000 before I pack it in a holster daily.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 8, 2011, 06:12 PM
In my case, the 500 rounds is to prove the shooter's proficiency, not the firearm's reliability.

If I switch platforms completely, I bump that number up to 1000 before I pack it in a holster daily.

Pretty extreme and expensive preparation for a defensive carry, but IMHO, there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to gun safety and proficiency. http://www.pic4ever.com/images/cowboypistol.gif

Busyhands94
April 8, 2011, 06:21 PM
for self defense you should choose a firearm that you are comfortable with, that you know how to effectively use, that you can comfortably operate as if it were second nature whether it be a Glock or a cap and ball. if you practice as often as possible then you will naturally get good with a pistol. as always if you take care of your weapon it will take care of you if (God forbid) you are forced to use it and you have no other options.

buttrap
April 8, 2011, 06:54 PM
I used to carry one all the time in the woods what seems like 4 lifetimes ago back when I was in school. The attraction back then was it was a lot less costly to shoot a 51 navy than a .357.

I have been tempted to get a .44 army colt now just as its cheep to shoot now and probably would carry it at times out on the trail. But I also tend to keep a 25-35 in the saddle boot so the sidearm is pretty much just a back up.

Voodoochile
April 8, 2011, 07:40 PM
Interesting Poll.

On a black powder forum where most individuals posting are familiar with C&B revolvers, shoot them, and know their limitations ~ 71% said yes to carrying them.

I been on some of the other forums where posts are flamed just for mentioning single action.

Guess it comes down to personal preference and experience. Seems those who shoot them are the most favorable to them.

As far as choosing a less effective weapon ~ we all do that each time we leave our rifles at home and choose to carry a sidearm.

Well said.

I'm all for a society that has never a need for it's citizens to need any weapons to defend them selves but as it is there is always that possible threat that could come that a weapon be it a knife or a firearm is necessary but like was mentioned earlier, a well kept C&B revolver is just as viable of a defence weapon as it was over 150 years ago in the right hands.
Modern weapons do have their advantages but in a real gun fight where most shootings occur with less than 6 shots fired by all involved the real advantage comes from the person who it beter skilled & who had the best luck of the draw not the weapon that was used.

BlackPowderSmoke
April 8, 2011, 08:29 PM
Modern weapons do have their advantages but in a real gun fight where most shootings occur with less than 6 shots fired by all involved the real advantage comes from the person who it beter skilled & who had the best luck of the draw not the weapon that was used.
Very well said and so very true. The greatest advantage a modern firearm has over a properly maintained and properly loaded cap and ball revolver is reload speed, which under most circumstances is irrelevant.

Smokin_Gun
April 11, 2011, 04:51 PM
Dang Billy you've answered your own question more than I even needed to hear. If you don't choose to carry a Black Powder Revolver then what's yur porblem with Black Powder Guns and Shooters that like to carry them?
They are just as potent jus' may depend on how good you shoot. BP Guns Range from .22cal to 45cal RB and Conical C&B to .22 cart rimfire on up to .45Colt and then some.
I very much so understand your point but I only patrol my Home and camp when away from home.
So I really hope your not jus' sayin' this cause yur down on BP and BP Shootists...
I doubt that you really are but that's what yur soundin' like to me anyway.
:cool:

BHP FAN
April 11, 2011, 05:06 PM
'' i need to get him away from his desk and computer and off his crackberry and spending time with his son building something awesome...''
That's the best reason I have ever heard. my dad got me into BP when I was 14, and I'm working on my son, now. IF I can get him away from his Garand....

Busyhands94
April 11, 2011, 08:20 PM
lol, at least you are not trying to get him away from video games! Kids should be outside more often. hunting, fishing, shooting, hiking, having fun out in nature with guns, learning what being a man is about. kids need to stop screwing around with their push button devices and they need to start shooting real black, working with wood, and even metal if they are skilled enough. i am not quite old enough to have kids, however when i do get around to it i will always make time to take my kids shooting. teach them how to properly load and unload a firearm, and how to clean and store their guns safely and unloaded. i have never owned a cartridge firearm before, I only have cap n' ball guns. when the time comes for me to be a father i will personally see to it that once my kids are trained in safe gun handling that they can actually own a firearm of their own. i will not put my kids though the pain and emasculating feeling of being prohibited from safely owning guns entails. being a non gun owner made me feel like i just did not have any manhood really. it made me feel like a cactus that had all it's spikes pulled off. well guess what, early this year this cactus got his spikes. i finally got one step above BB and pellet guns. even though the only factory made firearm i currently own is a Remington rider pistol, it is still my handgun and i still love the heck out of that little BP gun! and at the beginning of this month i FINALLY am making a step above a rider derringer. my father and i ordered a North American Arms super companion .22 magnum cap and ball 5 shot revolver. sadly the gun is on backorder status but when it finally gets shipped and i receive it i will finally have a .22 revolver :)

BHP FAN
April 12, 2011, 01:28 AM
Good for you! My son bought that Garand with his own money, from working at the mill with me, and as soon as he turned 21 I gave him a 1918 Colt .45 ACP, to go with it.While I like the Civil War, and the Old West, the boy likes WWII.

Busyhands94
April 12, 2011, 02:04 AM
i love black powder! whenever i pick up an old cap and ball revolver it brings out my inner cowboy! haha! blackpowder shooting is good because you can customize your charges to suit your needs. it is kinda like being a handloader!

damoc
April 12, 2011, 09:34 AM
i voted yes i reckon with practice a bp revolver especially the 58 is the equall
of many modern carry firearms except for maybee the smoke and being a little
bulkier but i personally like the extra weight.

Busyhands94
April 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
the huge plume of smoke and that loud >BOOM< would probably be enough to get anybody's attention, with the exception of meth addicts and someone hopped up on PCP. however a heart shot should be a one shot stop.

btz
April 12, 2011, 07:42 PM
A heart shot? Really? If you are being attacked, I doubt you will be able to judge (much less actually place a bullet) where someone's heart is.
Blackpowder guns are no different than any other guns, no more or less effective.
A 200 grain slug coming out of a '58 at 900 fps is the same as a 200 grain slug at the same speed out of a gun shooting .45 acp or .45 colt

Pyro
April 12, 2011, 09:40 PM
Sure. A gun is a gun.
BP or smokeless. Both go bang if you know what your doing.

Busyhands94
April 12, 2011, 10:48 PM
that is very true. either way you are still having a lead projectile traveling at lethal velocities.

Cop Bob
April 14, 2011, 04:15 PM
. . . and turn around and haul their carcass to a safer place.

Please provide us with any confirmed incidents where "the bad guy took out the open carriers first in the commission of a crime".

I've got quite a few confirmed reports of criminals moving on to a softer target after seeing open carriers at their original intended target.


Otherwise, your statement is perpetuating a myth.
Greetings All, I decided to stick my head in the "Coal Burners" area just to see what was going on. (and to post a thread to ask a question about BP CTG reloading) and I came across this thread...

Personally, I'm not agin it.. In Fact I'm all for it... It is a matter of choice.. That after all is the God Given Right of all Americans... the ability to choose for oneself..

Effectiveness of BP Pistols... Ahhh, there ain't no different degrees of dead.. Anyone doubting just how "Punchy" a BP weapon can be has never fired or witnessed the effects of a Walker, or Lord help the soul that gets on the wrong end of about any 45LC or Heaven forbid a Sharps.. pick a Sharps.. any Sharps...

Would I carry one for everyday protection... Ahh probably not... But that does not stop me from wanting that option.. I really do not shoot enough BP to give a qualified answer on dependability. However I do have a calculator, and I can figure energy... therefore I would consider myself smart enough to to stay away from the business end of one.

There was a little back and forth over where anyone had been attacked while wearing in open carry. Civilians that is... Cops are shot at all the time..

I do remember a specific case, in Austin,Tx I believe, where two Gun Shop employees were jumped, shot and killed about 6 or 7 years ago.. But that is about the only case that I can think of.. Like was said earlier, hardly a blip on the overall radar....

There are hundreds of cases every day where crooks have moved to softer targets when they learned of a weapon present.. I personally have had several of off duty incidents where I was approached, or walked in on something that appeared to be really wrong, and just eased the jacket back a bit.. sometimes a hard look and proper hand placement is all that is needed.. and they decided that they would take their business elsewhere..

There are CCW carriers, and off duty Police Officers all over this country with similar experiences.. the number of crimes that are stopped by the legal use of firearms is staggering.. just highly under reported.. and something that our extremely bias media will never want to admit.. As well as due to the attitudes of some police departments, many people don't want to make a report..

Anyone that is STOOOPID enough to jump a person that he KNOWS is armed, is stupid enough to bury.. or cremate his family choice... and in the adjusted words of Kinky Freeman " May the God of his choice have mercy on his soul"

One thing I can say is it's like Baskins and Robbins... They carry 31 Flavors... You CAN have whatever you want.... If BP is you thing, and that is what you want to carry.. God Bless Ya... Carry what you are comfortable with, and what you can hit and hit reliably with instictively, and if it is an old Dragoon.. Go for it..

sixguns4fighting
April 15, 2011, 12:13 AM
The reproduction 1860 Colt Army .44 revolvers always get open carried when I am in the woods.

ZVP
April 15, 2011, 03:16 PM
In the face of nothing else to carry I would use a BP gun but i have had enough misfires to worry about the guns going off in a gunfight. As a last ditch life presetver Yes I'd give the BP a try.
As a trail companion against Snakes and wild dogs etc, I'd surely take the chance to carry the BP revolver. but facing a bad guy with a Glock, I dunno... This is the NEW West!
I do plan to carry my new .36 Piettia Colt while fishing and afield with my air rifles.
Before carrying the revolver I plan to break it in and learn it very well first.
ZVP

Texas Moon
April 15, 2011, 06:06 PM
I suppose I would carry a BP revo if its all I had. Buts its not. :evil:

Frankly I think open carry in the city isn't smart.
1.) The Po-Po won't leave you alone.
2.) Goblins know you're packing AND ONLY HAVE SIX ROUNDS.
3.) Too many idjits would be hassling you to see it or some such nonsense.

Concealed is mo betta. ;)

Ghost Dog
April 16, 2011, 11:58 PM
C. B. You know a threads got class when someone starts quoting the Kinkster!

G D

Uncle Peter
April 17, 2011, 01:56 AM
I voted no, sorry. I don't feel comfortable carrying anything open. I do love BP though.

The Don
June 10, 2011, 02:28 AM
Yes I would, and I have. I carry my Ruger Old Army, my friend asked why I would carry that when more modern stuff was around. I said simple I'm fast, accurate and know what a 220 Grain soft lead conical with 40 grains 3f behind it will do. He then told me to get a 9mm glock like his and carry that because that was better. One funny thing though he (the one with the "better" gun) has yet to except my challenge of a round for round shoot moving out to 100yrds :)

Dellbert
June 10, 2011, 01:01 PM
Saying no, don't mean I wouldn't carry either of my 58s loaded with rd ball, or 200gr lead bullets for self defense. I shoot them all the time with rd ball, again the 200gr bullets, still working with them. I do no where to aim them from 30 feet to 25 yards. Still working on the Colts. The Walker is a little big. My 1911 has been the biggest help with the Colt revolvers. FMJs shoot about the same as the Colts do with rd ball, about 5" high. Lighter HPs shoot a little lower than the 230gr FMJs out of this 1911. I have no problem with open carry for you guys, but I don't like the attention. Normally self defense will be in feet. So don't loose any sleep over it.

Jaymo
June 11, 2011, 11:20 AM
Yes. I'd carry either my Pietta Rem New Army or New Army Sheriff. Especially if I could also carry my Pedersoli 20 gauge Howdah Pistol and my Himalayan Imports Tamang knife, Kerambit-C, and/or Sgt Khadka Bonecutter Khukuri. I absolutely would.


Or, carry them all, along with my CVA Colonial pistol and my Pietta 51 Navy.
I'd look like Mad Max when he disarmed to go into Thunderdome. J/K

Being targeted by criminals is the argument used by the socialist media when they want to denounce open carry. Much like how they always claim that keeping a gun in the home for family defense is MUCH more likely to cause you to get killed by a home invader, because they'll just take it from you and shoot you. I don't know about the newsbots, but the 2 times I was unfortunately forced to draw my CC handgun in self defense, there was NO WAY I was going to let the felon take it away from me. They would have been shot repeatedly had they tried. They would have taken an empty pistol from me. And if they're bad-arsed enough to do that, I'd put my running shoes to good use, because they're obviously superhuman.
I was VERY lucky. Both times the felons immediately fled. Very lucky for them, because I didn't shoot them. Even luckier for me, because they didn't force me to shoot them.
I carry to protect myself and my family, but I pray to God that I never have to shoot anyone. I prefer not to have that on my conscience, if at all possible. Not only is it better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it, it's also better to have it and not need it than to have it and need it. No walmart Rambo heroics for me, thank you.
I'd like it much better if we lived in a world where carrying a roscoe for protection wasn't ever needed. Concealed carry is a bit of a pain.

kbbailey
June 13, 2011, 08:27 AM
Somewhere toward the beginning of this thread, I posted that I would not carry my cap 'n ball for SD because I have better alternatives. However, every time I take my 5.5" '58 out to the woods or to my range , I gain more respect for it. I had just taken my SP101 to my backstop two days ago, just to keep in tune with it. I was very satisfied with the results of shooting that day. Yesterday, I got out the '58 and went to the backstop. It has been loaded (best I can remember), about 45 days. Every shot fired instantly, three of which cloverleafed in the center of a coffee cup sized bullseye I had drawn on a pizza box. This is the same target that I had shot with my SD gun, the day before. The group that I fired with the snub .357 could have been covered with your hand, the group from the Remington could have been covered with your palm. Seeing the results of those two guns overlaid on the same target made me think of this thread.
Would I carry this gun in the city where I feel I am at greatest risk???...no.
Would I carry this gun in the wild on a fishing/hiking/camping trip??...yes, gladly.

If you enjoyed reading about "Would you open carry a BP revolver?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!