[mshootnit]

I have to call a spade a spade. I have been looking at some numbers and there is literally no weight savings compared to the M14 Garand style action. Apples to apples, Here are the advantages I see for the AR-10 style rifle:
1. Accessories, stocks, aftermarket parts.
2. Accuracy (only applies in so much as it pertains to a certain application, the M14 or M1a is plenty accurate)
And thats about it. Now that means that if you want your rifle to look cool and shoot the Ace of spades at the range the AR-10 is for you. I am not saying the M14 style rifle is light years ahead of the AR what I am saying is that the Stoner design is not inherently lighter or more ingenious than that Garand style action. Does anybody really think that a 7 lug bolt with a separate carrier and gas rings, staked key etc, is a better design than a 2 lug bolt with no separate carrier and no gas rings?

[Mags]

Point please?

[M.C.]

Point please?
That M14/M1As are wicked awesome :D

...but AR-10s ain't too shabby either.

[Remo223]

Ok. why isn't the mini-14 the american standard military issue rifle then?

[Chris Rhines]

Does anybody really think that a 7 lug bolt with a separate carrier and gas rings, staked key etc, is a better design than a 2 lug bolt with no separate carrier and no gas rings? Yup.

-C

[Trebor]

I was never aware that the supposed advantage of the AR 10 was that it was supposed to be lighter. I thought the big supposed advantage was the difference in the operating system between the M-14 and the AR-10, the manufacturing techniques that eliminate problems associated with bedding an action into a traditional stock, and the modularity of the design.

[NG VI]

How about the control layout of the AR type rifles, the closed system, the advantages in mounting and using optics?

M1As are cool, but the AR type rifles have more advantages than just maximum potential accuracy and average accuracy + stock options.

[JDMorris]

I love my dad's AR, I clean all the guns in the house and I load .308 and .223 ammo, His AR is an XM15E2S Bushmaster with MOE furniture, and a TA11 (I think) ACOG, I cleaned it tonight and boy do those .22's with the conversion bolt gum it up because there was so much black gunk in the gun I used an old T-shirt that I cut up to get it all out, I put Kroil through the gas tube and a brush through the barrel and it's drying out now ( I call what rifles do after being heavily cleaned and leaking oil for several hours "drying out")
ANYWAYY.
I'd take an AR-10 with a heavy barrel over an M1A because the ease of mounting optics, but other than that I'd prefer an M1A. I have NO experience with either though, only AR-15's, and I've shot a Mini 14, but never the M1A or AR-10, I shot a Garand once and put a clip through it which was satisfactory.

[12131]

Sorry, but my bubble is still intact.:evil:

[isc]

I own both, I much prefer the AR over my M14.

[1858]

Does anybody really think that a 7 lug bolt with a separate carrier and gas rings, staked key etc, is a better design than a 2 lug bolt with no separate carrier and no gas rings?

My "AR-10" doesn't have a staked gas key or gas rings. Regardless, I don't consider the AR 308 to be in competition with the M1A. I have both and like both for different reasons. I also have an FAL and two bolt action rifles chambered in .308 Win. They're all good at something and all have their uses, so I don't need to choose one over another. I have a Mini-14 as well, in addition to a number of AR15s. Folks are always putting the Mini down but I'll never sell mine.

[Mxracer239y]

I wasn't aware the AR-10 was intended to be a direct replacement for the M1/M1A. That being said, lets go over your points 1 more time.

1. Weight is the same
2. Better parts availability for the AR
3. AR is more accurate

... so what's your point? Are you suggesting that the AR isn't a good rifle, because it isn't significantly better than the M1 in every single aspect?

[kurt1305]

I don't have an AR-10, but just trying to mount a scope on my M1A and the ergonomics involved make me see an advantage to the AR platform. I just like the old school beauty of the walnut stocked M1A.

[Jeremy2171]

If you want ergonomics on your M1A then you can go this route.............

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff36/jeremy2171/M1A/m1a001.jpg

[sneedb82]

Additionally an m1a cannot easily be converted to shoot 6.5x284Norma or 7mm-08 or even 260 rem.

Personally they have two different roles and not an apples to apples comparison. I could do the same thing with and AR15 in any new 30cal option and say it's better than the original 308 ar10 also. Weighs less more compact and provides same lethality etc as the bigger brother. But again they provide different roles and therefore are apples to oranges for comparisons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[68wj]

Does anybody really think that a 7 lug bolt with a separate carrier and gas rings, staked key etc, is a better design than a 2 lug bolt with no separate carrier and no gas rings
Better, no. Worse, no. Don't oversimplify the M1A either as the op rod performs the same basic function as the AR's carrier by allowing the transfer of energy from the fired round's gas to unlock and cycle the bolt.

Additionally an m1a cannot easily be converted to shoot 6.5x284Norma or 7mm-08 or even 260 rem.


Beat me to it. I almost opted for a Remington R25 in .243 myself.

[madcratebuilder]

M1A or AR10..... six of one, half dozen of the other.







That's how many you should own.

[Remo223]

If you want ergonomics on your M1A then you can go this route.............

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff36/jeremy2171/M1A/m1a001.jpg
that's very interesting.

I'm not so keen on that buttstock though. A side folder or under folder makes more sense on a rifle that doesn't have a spring in the buttstock. But your pic should make those saying "apple to oranges, not the same role", shut up. I don't know where you get such ideas when they are exactly the same role...30caliber NATO high capacity assault rifle. Same role as the FAL and G3.

[Flfiremedic]

Just remember there are some true PROs out there with discretionary funds out the whazzu that are snapping up and using M14/M1As as fast as they can, and these are the guys that are "Seeing the elephant" on a daily basis..

[68wj]

Just remember there are some true PROs out there with discretionary funds out the whazzu that are snapping up and using M14/M1As as fast as they can, and these are the guys that are "Seeing the elephant" on a daily basis..
The same can be said for "AR10" rifles too.

[Jeremy2171]

that's very interesting.

I'm not so keen on that buttstock though. A side folder or under folder makes more sense on a rifle that doesn't have a spring in the buttstock. But your pic should make those saying "apple to oranges, not the same role", shut up. I don't know where you get such ideas when they are exactly the same role...30caliber NATO high capacity assault rifle. Same role as the FAL and G3.

You can get the side folding stock from ACE stocks..I just used what parts I had on hand or I could've put on a regular A2 buttstock....this just give you more options.

With the barrel bobbed to 18.5" and the M4 stock it's a really handy package and I have a Leupold LR/T M1 on it and it really makes a difference...pop it off and I have the BUIS ready...it's already bedded thanks to this stock design and you never have to "glass" it.

Originally Posted by sneedb82
Additionally an m1a cannot easily be converted to shoot 6.5x284Norma or 7mm-08 or even 260 rem.

You can get 7mm/08 or .260/.243 barrels for the M1A. My only beef with those calibers is they are "generally" barrel burners and I don't have a need for them in my requirements. JMHO....

[mljdeckard]

Except the ones who are using M110s. I helped a guy clean one yesterday after a mission.

I had an M1a, and I found out really quick, I was in over my head. The scope mount sits so high, to allow ejection out the top, that you have to lean way forward into the scope. Eye relief isn't very adjustable because there is only one place to mount the scope. To avoid getting your eyebrow cut by the scope, you need a raised or adjustable comb. The mount sat so low, I couldn't dial in the iron sights, their field of view was cut off by the mount.

You can build an AR-10 as light or heavy as you want. I'm starting with a lightweight .243 upper, and a heavy .308 upper. I'm a rookie, assembling the whole thing from loose parts. Anyone can do this. I can switch out the uppers to shoot .243, .260, .308, 7mm-08, etc. With the same magazine and bolt face. A Garand is stuck with en-bloc clips, and M-14s use heavy box magazines. I use pmags in my LR 308. I can drop in any trigger you can imagine.

I've shot both plenty. I don't wish I still had the M1A.

[isc]

The M110 was the reason I bout a .308 AR instead of scoping my M14. The M14 actually has a better trigger (previous owner paid a smith to do a trigger job) but the ergonomics for the AR are just superior.

M14s were pulled out of storage and issued as a stopgap measure, not because the M14 is a great rifle. The M110 is intended to be a replacement for the M24. It is a better rifle than the M14 in terms of accuracy, ergonomics, modularity, and similarity to the current issue rifle (M16A2/M4).

I love the traditional look of a wood stock. I like it so much that I'm considering replacing the black stock on my DPMS .308 AR with a walnut stock. If/when I do that, I won't have to worry about bedding, handfitting the action, mounting a bunch of hardware, etc. It should take 10 minutes and two screwdrivers.

[merlinfire]

I think that <insert favorite platform> is <biased apples to oranges comparison> than <insert other popular platform that is not your favorite>.

Reliable? Accurate enough? Goes boom? Thought so.

Edit: I just love guns. I can't bring myself to dislike any of them

[Remo223]

The M110 is pretty cool. So is the SR-25

[shotgunjoel]

Ok. why isn't the mini-14 the american standard military issue rifle then?
Um, the M16 was accepted in '63, the Mini wasn't produced for another 10 years.

[Remo223]

yeah, and it's also not as good. Hence my comment.

[zfk55]

100 yards, 8 rounds 175gr SMKs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/WilsonAR10002-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/Wilson1-1.jpg

[longshot7.62x51]

Thats why i bought an HK 91

[NAVY SEABEE 303]

I don't have either (yet) but will eventually have both, I think they are great platforms in their own right.

[SlamFire1]

You know I looked at the published weights of the M14, 8.2 pounds unloaded, and that is not that much different from a M16A2 at 7.8 pounds.

The weight of a 308 version can be more or less than a M14, depending on how much metal the designer puts on the thing.

I have extensive experience with the AR15 platform and the M1a. I have shot a couple of Ar10's, was very surprised by the relatively low level of recoil.

I am of the opinion that if your one and only criteria is accuracy, the AR style of mechanism is going to be more accurate. The bolt lugs evenly distribute the load. The M14 lugs are asymetric and the loading is asymetric.

But accuracy is not the whole thing.

Clearing a jam in a M14 is easy. Though I can't think of every having a jam in a M14/M1a. I remember once kicking the operation rod open for a newbie. His load was way too hot.

Clearing a jam in an AR is more difficult. I love the open top design of the M14, just look down and see what is going on. Any issues with stacking, jamming, you just reach in with your fingers and clear it. Most AR service rifle highpower shooters carry a multitool. Something with needle nosed pliers to reach in that ejection port and pull out a case.

Just this weekend I separated the halves of an AR, because it is easier that way to clear the upper, and rammed a cleaning rod down the barrel to clear a cartridge. I could not grasp the rim with enough force, with my Leatherman, to get the thing out. It was too deep in there to use the screwdriver blade.

I find clearing blown primers a lot easier in the M1a. Just pull the trigger group and the primer falls out. Separate the halves of a AR, fish around with your multitool, beat lower against ground hoping that will knock it loose, maybe the primer will come out. For deep cleaning you have to push the pins out and remove the trigger parts.

Cleaning the locking lug recesses in an AR weapon requires about 15 Q-Tips. Much easier on the M1a.

I think the M14 was a better design. Even if the weights are equal.

[Remo223]

bah!

AR is better.

[isc]

I kinda wish that the .308 AR had a chrome lined barrel. I know it would open groups by as much as a half MOA, but I made sure all my 5.56 ARs have chrome bores and I do have some corrosive .308 in my ammo stash.

[Robert]

I want an OBR.
I do have some corrosive .308 in my ammo stash.
Then shoot it. A little hot water or Windex will solve the corrosive issue, then clean litle normal.

[winchester '97]

The M14/Garand action is 75 years old now, and it shows with regards to interchangeability of calibers and ergonomics of the rifles, The AR is just a more modern platform. The SCAR-H in its many variations seems to make more sense than either action though. Also the mini 14 probably would not have been accepted being less inherently accurate than the AR, and being backwards in styling what with other countries adopting the FAL and AK respectively. Basically if you were going to adopt a totally new infantry rifle a re-chambered and downsized version of your old rifle isn't that attractive.

[zstephens13]

My bubble is doing just fine...

[shotgunjoel]

zfk55, that's cool an all, but your POI is off a little:D

[zfk55]

No, that's where the fly was sitting. :D

[NG VI]

being backwards in styling what with other countries adopting the FAL and AK respectively.

More importantly it didn't post up any advantages in ergonomics and control layout like the AR platform did, had no modularity bonus, and still had the same old stock system as all the older rifles.

[InkEd]

I will take the M-14 over an AR-10 any day of the week. I just can't warm up to any of the AR rifles. I have tried and tried bit just don't care for them.

[Red Devil]

I saw a post yesterday indicating that no one knew where the saying of "it's swell, it's made by Mattel" came from in reference to the M-16. I was assigned to one of the test groups that tested various weapons systems prior to the decision of awarding the military's new combat rifle to Mattel . . . ah er Colt. We tested the weapons in the jungles of Panama (1965). The referernce to Mattel came about due to the plastic looking design of the weapon and the fact that many broke during parachute jumps. 3rd Bn Abn, 508th Infantry

[Red Devil]

I believe that the M-16 was not officially accepted until after tests conducted in 1965.

[bbuddtec]

I would have any and all... brother can you spare a dime?

:D

[Casefull]

I hate to burst the AR-10 bubble but...


...but you obviously do not know what you are talking about. It is 20% heavier and not nearly as accurate...especially out of the box.

[Art Eatman]

Enough...