Would a 4-Shot .45acp J-Frame Be Stupid?


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Phydeaux642
April 5, 2011, 08:36 PM
It kind of just popped into my head today. A 5-shot j-frame would be awfully thick at the cylinder, so, what about a 4-shot? Pressure limits shouldn't be a problem.

I know, I know, what have I been smokin'?

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tekarra
April 5, 2011, 08:43 PM
I wonder if the hand would be able to rotate the cylinder through a 90 degree arc?

Phydeaux642
April 5, 2011, 08:46 PM
I wonder if the hand would be able to rotate the cylinder through a 90 degree arc?

You may have a point there. That would be some serious travel. Okay, maybe a 5-shot that would still be a bit smaller than a Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special.

bikemutt
April 5, 2011, 08:49 PM
You'd have to deal with the rimless nature of .45acp too.

Phydeaux642
April 5, 2011, 08:49 PM
You'd have to deal with the rimless nature of .45acp too.

Moon clips.

sm
April 5, 2011, 08:54 PM
K frame size would be better IMO. Charter Arms Bulldog ( five shot .44spl, with a three inch barrel) had a neat idea with this gun, only for me and mine, the guns did not hold up to "our" use.
[We shoot what we carry)

.44spl is akin to 45 ACP, in being a low pressure round, and proven. So in my opinion, a "D" or "K" frame size, with a five shot cylinder, and three inch barrel would be better.
Still concealable, just the power to weight ratio would allow for better control for first shot hits, and quick effective follow up shots.

.44spl with speedloaders or quick/speed strips or 45ACP with the new polymer moon clips - either would work for me.

Steve

9mmepiphany
April 5, 2011, 09:04 PM
I thought I remember someone thought it would work back in the 70s...it won't. There isn't enough room in the cylinder between the topstrap and the ratchet. There isn't enough room in a K-frame or a L-frame either.

Remember that there is a pretty large difference between the diameter of the .44spl and the .45ACP. The body of the .44spl case measures, according to the Speer Reloading Manual, 11.58mm, while the .45 ACP measures 12.01mm

Shimitup
April 5, 2011, 09:28 PM
I think there would be no point in having a 4 shot, consider the chamber to chamber thickness vs. thickness at the outer radius of the cylinder which you really can't reduce. In other words 5 holes in a circle still seems like the ideal way to utilize the space you've got in a minimum radius while maintaining equal walls all the way around a chamber.

bikemutt
April 5, 2011, 09:30 PM
"Moon clips."

Good point.

XTrooper
April 5, 2011, 09:32 PM
Would a 4-Shot .45acp J-Frame Be Stupid?

Yes.

NG VI
April 5, 2011, 10:05 PM
Would a five shot 9mm J frame be stupid?


No, I want.

Would a five shot .40 S&W K frame be a workable thing? I think that owuld be pretty sweet myself.

rdrancher
April 5, 2011, 10:24 PM
A steel, 5-shot j-frame would be hot! But we are dreaming here right? ;)

The Charter Arms .45 ACP should be interesting...I hope...fingers crossed. I wouldn't mind a bit if they'd spruce their entire line-up a bit with some better fit and polish. Maybe a pro-shop type deal. It would drive up the price, but I bet they'd sell like hotcakes against Smith and Wesson's mediocre, standard lineup and Taurus's poor customer service.

rocklock
April 6, 2011, 12:10 AM
Five shot, steel 9mm J frame = Taurus 905.

SwampWolf
April 6, 2011, 01:56 PM
How about a 3-shot J-Frame chambered in 500 S&W? :eek:

Friendly, Don't Fire!
April 6, 2011, 02:04 PM
No, a 38 Special +P is enough.
A 45 auto would not be that much more powerful, would it?

A 500 would be out of the question due to massive recoil and severing fingers - unless it was made of some kind of metal twice as heavy as lead.:eek:

SoulLessGinger
April 6, 2011, 02:12 PM
The balistics on .45acp out of a 1 7/8" barrel would suck...no thanks.

temmi
April 6, 2011, 02:33 PM
No not at all... or a 45 colt

zxcvbob
April 6, 2011, 02:45 PM
I want a J-frame "Chief's Special" with a short cylinder in 9mm. About like the old .38S&W guns, but rechambered for 9mm in moon clips. Not a .38 Special length cylinder.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
April 6, 2011, 02:48 PM
The balistics on .45acp out of a 1 7/8" barrel would suck...no thanks.
I agree.
The bullet would be about like shooting a 1/2" nut using a wrist-rocket sling shot.
Accuracy would most likely be TERRIBLE!

9mmepiphany
April 6, 2011, 03:02 PM
The balistics on .45acp out of a 1 7/8" barrel would suck...no thanks.

I gather that is an impression, rather than experience...look up the R.I.C. Bulldog

Guns&Religion
April 6, 2011, 03:16 PM
Colt used to make a 4 shot revolver called the "Cloverleaf" It was 19th century stuff, but yea, there's no reason you couldn't make a modern revolver that way.

GEM
April 6, 2011, 04:14 PM
What was the barrel length on that Perfomance Center revolver with the really short barrel? The SW site seems down.

It was tiny.

Grey Morel
April 6, 2011, 04:31 PM
A 45 auto would not be that much more powerful, would it?

The balistics on .45acp out of a 1 7/8" barrel would suck...no thanks.

BBTI - 45 auto (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html)

From a 2" inch contender barrel, standard 230gr loads made only 700fps - that gives only about 250 foot pounds - a revolver would produce lower numbers still, thanks to cylinder gap.

Small frame, short barrel 45acp revolver = WEAK SAUCE. No real power advantage over standard pressure 38 special.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
April 6, 2011, 04:32 PM
What was the barrel length on that Perfomance Center revolver with the really short barrel? The SW site seems down.

It was tiny.
The gun was a part of a distress kit Orange box, orange grip, and the barrel I believe was 2" (less one inch for the comp). It may have been 2.5"

I have a 4" which is really a 3" barrel with a 1" compensator, I would not want any shorter than that.

rcmodel
April 6, 2011, 05:27 PM
A J-Frame in .45 ACP or .40 S&W simply is not possible, due to the size of the holes.
There would be nothing left in the chamber walls.

A .45 ACP or .40 S&W K-Frame is likewise impossible.
The .38/.357 version is already maxed out on the barrel shank cut-out to clear the gas ring, and chamber wall clearance with .38 caliber holes in it is using up all the metal there is there.

An L-Frame could be made in .40 S&W.

It takes an N-Frame S&W to have enough metal in the cylinder to drill it out to .45 caliber.

rc

earlthegoat2
April 6, 2011, 05:29 PM
only for me and mine, the guns did not hold up to "our" use.

Mine too.

The balistics on .45acp out of a 1 7/8" barrel would suck...no thanks.

There are quite a few who buy into this kind of conventional wisdom. Some even think a 1 7/8" barrel is not long enough for 38.

Brian Williams
April 6, 2011, 09:53 PM
Taurus made a K frame sized tracker compact in 45 acp and Colt.

Lucky Derby
April 6, 2011, 10:08 PM
A J-Frame in .45 ACP or .40 S&W simply is not possible, due to the size of the holes.
There would be nothing left in the chamber walls.

A .45 ACP or .40 S&W K-Frame is likewise impossible.
The .38/.357 version is already maxed out on the barrel shank cut-out to clear the gas ring, and chamber wall clearance with .38 caliber holes in it is using up all the metal there is there.

An L-Frame could be made in .40 S&W.

It takes an N-Frame S&W to have enough metal in the cylinder to drill it out to .45 caliber.

rc
On the J Frame you are correct.

There have been custom made 5 shot .44 Special K frames. Spokhandguns in Spokane WA used to convert M19s. A .40 should be simple enough.

The factory has made both .40 S&W (M646) and .44 Special (M696) L frames.

I do believe you are right, as far as current S&W frame sizes are concerned, on the .45. although I do believe a 5 shot .45 could be made on a frame larger than an L frame but smaller than an N frame. The FA M97 comes to mind.

CraigC
April 7, 2011, 11:03 AM
Not possible. Reducing capacity to make more room has to be balanced with the diameter of the cylinder and the distance between the ejector and chamber centerlines. Just ain't enough room. Ain't enough room for it in a K or L frame either. The cylinder would have to be much larger in diameter on even an L-frame, to contain the .45's much higher pressures. If they re-engineer it with a larger cylinder, which means more distance between the centerline of the cylinder and the centerline of the chambers, which means more distance between the centerline of the cylinder and the bore, which means an all-new frame, which means it ain't an L-frame anymore. It's an N-frame.


There have been custom made 5 shot .44 Special K frames. Spokhandguns in Spokane WA used to convert M19s. A .40 should be simple enough.
The design parameters are different between one-off customs and factory guns. Those .44Spl K-frames are also a relic of the past and no current gunsmith would do such a conversion. Not to mention the fact that the .44Spl operates at much lower pressure than the .45ACP, which would need substantial wall thickness to contain the pressure. Actually, I don't know of any doing custom five-shot cylinders for S&W's and few do them for Ruger DA's.

shotgunjoel
April 7, 2011, 11:42 AM
How about a 3-shot J-Frame chambered in 500 S&W?
You could get over the rotational arc problem by cutting 6 notches in the cylinder. It would fire every other trigger pull. That could be a problem though, I could see it leading to AD/ND's.

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