9mm MAK?


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RonGoode
January 10, 2004, 03:25 AM
A 9mm MAK? Is that Makarov? Can I get some pictures and information on this? Thanks.

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tomkatz
January 10, 2004, 04:16 AM
9mm mak is 9x18........tom

denfoote
January 10, 2004, 04:33 AM
Tom beat me to it!! :D

RUT
January 10, 2004, 07:35 AM
http://makarov.com/

Go here for complete info.

NeveraVictimAgain
January 10, 2004, 09:46 AM
Be sure to also check out the experts and data at the Makarov Forum on:

www.gunboards.com/forums

No, I don't work for them. The Mak is a great little gun and my CCW piece.

N3rday
January 11, 2004, 12:14 AM
Yeah, like they said, the Makarov is 9x18, where the 9mm you hear about used by police and in rap songs (you know, packin tha ninas) is the 9x19, also called 9mm Luger or 9mm Parabellum

alamo
January 11, 2004, 01:38 AM
Arsenal used to advertise a 9x19 on their website not too long ago. Whether they actually made any, I'm not sure but none apparently made it over here if they did. It would certainly have a tremendous kick, being a blow-back design.

http://www.arsenal-bg.com/defense_police/pistols9x17_9x18mm.htm?%27))window.location=%27http://www.arsenal-bg.com/defense_police/pistols9x17_9x18mm.htm%27

WonderNine
January 11, 2004, 02:21 AM
It would certainly have a tremendous kick, being a blow-back design.

I never understood why anything in blowback larger than 9X18 is supposed to have a tremendous kick. I'll bet those 9mm revolvers about tear your arm off! :rolleyes: :p

I always though it was not favored just because it was harder on the firearm, not on the shooter.

CWatson
January 11, 2004, 03:01 AM
I have shot 9mm and 45 cal Hi Points and they are blow backs,the kick was the same as a Glock 9mm and a 1911 45.

CWatson

WonderNine
January 11, 2004, 03:09 AM
I have shot 9mm and 45 cal Hi Points and they are blow backs

Thanks. :scrutiny:

I always thought the Hi-Points were blowbacks....

RonGoode
January 11, 2004, 03:15 AM
Pardon my ignorance but what's a blow back? I probably know what you mean, just not the terminology.

CWatson
January 11, 2004, 07:10 AM
Wondernine,

"I never understood why anything blowback larger than 9x18 syppose to have a tremendous kick"


Your welcome ,in case you did not catch it ,it was a compairison showing I felt no more felt recoil with blowbacks than other conventional types.


CWatson

Rival
January 11, 2004, 09:55 AM
Pardon my ignorance but what's a blow back? I probably know what you mean, just not the terminology.
Blow back is when nothing is used to lock the barrel and the slide together, only the tension of the spring. That means that for stronger rounds a stronger spring is required. If you would design a compact light weight pistol in powerfull caliber using such a design, you would have to use such a strong spring that it would be very hard to cycle the slide manually.

The advantage of such a design is simplicity. The barrel is fixed, and the main spring goes right over the barrel, there's no need for guide of any sort. Blow back pistols usually have very good looks because of that...

Gary A
January 11, 2004, 11:17 AM
I believe the other option besides a much stronger spring in a higher-powered round being chambered in a blowback is to have a larger and heavier slide, e.g. the Hi-Point. Either way, practicality regarding either the strength of the spring or the size and weight of the slide are larger factors than increased felt recoil. Something, either a locked breech, a gas-delay, or the spring, or the mass of the slide has to keep the action closed long enough for the pressure to subside. BTW, I have a small 9mm revolver and recoil is not particularly obnoxious, though a bit more than .38 special.

Walt Sherrill
January 11, 2004, 11:44 AM
Blow back is when nothing is used to lock the barrel and the slide together, only the tension of the spring.Or, in the case of the Hi-Points, the weight of the slide, which increases as the caliber goes up...

Big, heavy slides help control the recoil, too. The .45 version of the Hi-Point looks like a brick with a handle. (Overstatement, to be sure, but not much.)

Kalos
January 11, 2004, 11:46 AM
Arsenal used to advertise a 9x19 on their website not too long ago

Taking a look at that website... the life of the pistols shown (in 9x18 and .380) are... 4000 rounds? What's up with that...? :uhoh:

jar
January 11, 2004, 12:54 PM
Typical blow back handgun disassembeled to show construction.

http://www.fototime.com/902ADC5232EE7C5/standard.jpg

Rival
January 11, 2004, 02:08 PM
Actually there's another way to fire a 9mm Luger round with a blow back design, without increased weight of the slide or strong spring. This is a very interesting solution!

There is a Makarov that fires 9mm Luger, here is explanation of the design from makarov.com
The way the 9x19 Makarov works is that the chamber is scored or serrated, the brass gets blown out into those serrations thereby retarding blowback. The result is that the brass is shredded and unusable for reloading, the brass is tossed into low orbit, and the recoil of the gun is horrendous. For liability reasons, B-West refused to import these.

denfoote
January 11, 2004, 04:40 PM
Arsenal used to advertise a 9x19 on their website not too long ago. Whether they actually made any, I'm not sure but none apparently made it over here if they did.

Nope!!
Some did!!
I give you my Arsenal Pistolet Makarova with Pierce grips!!!
Actually, it's one of my best Maks!! :D

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/denfoote/Arsenal_Mak_2.jpg

JShirley
January 11, 2004, 05:47 PM
This is a Parabelllum?

denfoote
January 11, 2004, 08:37 PM
What??? Huh??? :confused: :confused:
It's 9X18mm Makarov!!
Parabellum is 9X19mm!!! :rolleyes:
No offense, but what are your qualifications to be a moderator??? :D

Rival
January 11, 2004, 09:19 PM
edited out due to my own mistake and misunderstanding...

I assumed that the gun on the pucture is Makarov chambered in 9mm Luger, but the person who posted the picture said it is the regular 9x18 Mak.

JShirley
January 11, 2004, 09:28 PM
Denfoote,

This whole thread is about the Makarov, the difference between 9x18 and x19mm, and whether any actual 9x19 Maks made it to the States. Explanation of the technical differences- a fluted chamber- enabling a 9x19 Mak was given. Alamo posted Whether they actually made any, I'm not sure but none apparently made it over here if they did.
Then, YOU pipe up, and say, "Some did." And post a pic. Since I can't really discern the lettering on the slide- it looks like it might say "9x19"- and since you claimed it was, I wanted to verify what you were posting for our edification.

Consider me edified.

John

mod12
January 11, 2004, 09:41 PM
i'll take your word for it. how does it shoot? i got out my magnifying glass and it sure looks like 9x19 to me.

alamo
January 11, 2004, 11:04 PM
Kalos,

I have no idea why Arsenal would put "Life, rounds - 4,000" on their website. Any Mak owner could tell you that is nonsense. Maks are extremely durable. I have found from reading their site that the English translations have some glitches and some improper grammer. Maybe they were referring to something else but I have no idea what.

Denfoote - your last post was puzzling. Is that Mak a 9x19 or 9x18?

--------------------------------
Denfoote wrote:

Parabellum???????
What??? Huh???
It's 9X18mm Makarov!!
Parabellum is 9X19mm!!!
No offense, but what are your qualifications to be a moderator???

------------------------------------------

You also posted this on the Makarov forum with the same picture:

"finally got a digital camera and have taken a shot of my Arsenal Makarov. It seems that these are somewhat rare. Could this be true?? It is one of my better ones!! "

Do you know what you have there? If it's 9x19, I hope you haven't been shooting 9x18 out of it.

c_yeager
January 12, 2004, 05:16 AM
The 4000 round number is also given in the original russian manual (translation) that game with mine. There were some very amusing pieces of "grammar" in that manual as well. But, i have a feeling that numbers are pretty easy to translate. Im pretty sure that the 4,000 round "life-span" actually reffers to the amount of rounds fired between servicing the weapon by the armorer. To be safe it would make sense to check springs etc. every 4K rounds. Usually thats what "service life" reffers to for the russians, since they never seem to actually take weapons out of service.

Richardson
January 12, 2004, 10:58 AM
My first centerfire pistol was a Makarov in 9x18M. The recoil was unpleasant enough that I didn't want to try anything larger (and I tried using Makawrap and Pearce grips). Then I got the opportunity to shoot a Sig 220 in .45ACP. Comparing the two, the .45 was like someone punched my palm, while the 9x18 was like someone hit my palm with a stick. The .45 was more of a push, the 9x18 stung my wrist.

When I started asking around, the answer I got was that the blowback design makes the recoil more "snappy", because the slides hammers the frame. So even if the recoil energy of the 9x18 isn't as high as the .45ACP, it delivers it in a sharper manner.

When I did my own penetration comparison, the 9x18 got set on the shelf in favor of the .38 +P

Richardson

WonderNine
January 17, 2004, 09:28 AM
So denfoote, that ISN'T a 9X19 Mak then I assume? You were just addressing the "Arsenal" part of the conversation?

NeveraVictimAgain
January 17, 2004, 02:55 PM
My understanding is that the Mak has been redesigned for 9x19, but these are not available in the US due to the import ban put through by Comrade Clinton.

If anyone ever finds a Mak in 9mm Luger I sure would like to here about it.

There are now conversions available to change a stock Mak to " .32 NAA ", apparently a very fast round. I believe this only requires a new barrel from makarov.com.

Nightcrawler
January 18, 2004, 05:30 AM
Blowbacks are always reported to have unpleasant recoil. I can only assume this is due to the low weight of the pieces, as I've fired .41 Magnum revolvers without breaking anything.

The comment about the 9mm revolvers holds true as well.

denfoote
January 18, 2004, 07:15 AM
The Arsenal Pistolet Makarova was a Bulgarian commercial venture that exported the Makarov into the USA some time ago. It was, I believe new production, rather than military surplus. I happened upon mine at a gun shop in Scottsdale AZ and very quickly snapped it up! It is chambered in the standard 9mm Makarov.

alamo
January 20, 2004, 12:12 AM
Interesting posting on the Makarov forum for those who think the recoil of a Makarov chambered in 9MM would be no problem to handle:

From http://www.makarov.com

"I see on Baikal's web page that there's a 9mm Parabellum Makarov. Are they available?

According to the director Russian Affairs at former importer B-West, they tested the 9x19 Makarov available from Baikal. The way the 9x19 Makarov works is that the chamber is scored or serrated, the brass gets blown out into those serrations thereby retarding blowback. The result is that the brass is shredded and unusable for reloading, the brass is tossed into low orbit, and the recoil of the gun is horrendous. For liability reasons, B-West refused to import these."

Glockorama
January 20, 2004, 12:36 AM
So would it be possible, albiet highly unadvisable, to ream out the chamber of a mak to fit the 9x19? I can fit some brands of 9x19 ammo in my mak mags. Then add a more powerful recoil spring? Such wondering?:confused:

AZ Jeff
January 20, 2004, 01:50 PM
Glockorama wrote:

"So would it be possible, albiet highly unadvisable, to ream out the chamber of a mak to fit the 9x19? I can fit some brands of 9x19 ammo in my mak mags. Then add a more powerful recoil spring?"
**************************************************

Blowback firearms use TWO MECHANISMS to retard breech opening upon firing:
1. recoil spring force
2. breechblock (slide) mass

Just fitting a larger (more powerful) spring into a given blowback operated firearm to deal with a more powerful cartridge probably WON'T work. The spring will need to be so much stronger that slide cycling force will be too much for most operators to deal with.

Just as a point of reference: the Spanish Astra 400 pistol was chambered for 9mm Parabellum (aka 9x19, 9mm Luger, 9mm NATO) back in the 1950's and 1960's. I shot one of them, and I remember two things vividly:

1. The recoil spring was REAL STOUT. You had to use a VERY strong grip to retract the slide to charge the weapon.
2. The fired brass that exited the chamber was SIGNIFICANTLY bulged, due to the breech opening while the chamber pressures are still pretty high.

The Astra is a MUCH bigger pistol than the Makarov. I would suspect a Mak in 9x19 would have a harder time dealing with the breech unlocking speeds than the Astra, and that would make a Mak in 9x19 a risky proposition.

c_yeager
January 21, 2004, 06:12 AM
The only really good 9mm blowback design that springs to my mind is the H&K P7. It doesnt seem to suffer from exessive recoil but it DOES use a very elaborate system to avoid the very same problem that AZ JEFF is discussing. The problem is that the high pressure 9mm round pushes open the slide on a pistol with a resonably weighted slide way too fast. The only other 9mm blowback that springs to mind is of the highpoint design. They simply use a MASSIVE slide to deal with this problem. Of course making a 9mm really heavy starts defeating the purpose real fast.

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