Why no SKS in 7.62X54R


PDA






mshootnit
April 7, 2011, 10:06 PM
I have always thought that the SKS was a cool rifle especially the russian ones, but I have always thought of them as being large and overbuilt to be chambered in an intermediate assault rifle cartridge like the X39. It seems to me that a full size rifle needs to be chambered to a RIFLE cartridge. And I thought it would be very cool to have an SKS in 7.62X54. Why didn't the russians ever try this? Would it even be possible?

If you enjoyed reading about "Why no SKS in 7.62X54R" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Broken11b
April 7, 2011, 10:13 PM
they made one already, its the SVT 40... or SVT 38... I cant remember which one

the SKS is based off of its action for a smaller "more modern" (circa 1943) caliber

d2wing
April 7, 2011, 10:23 PM
Or Saiga .308

tyeo098
April 7, 2011, 10:27 PM
they made one already, its the SVT 40... or SVT 38... I cant remember which one

the SKS is based off of its action for a smaller "more modern" (circa 1943) caliber
The SKS was made by Simonov (system carbine simonov i think it translates to)
The SVT-38/40 was created by Tokarev (Tokerev?) (and translates into self-loading rifle tokerev)

x39=carbine
x54r=rifle

They both use a short-gas system with a tilting block bolt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVT-40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS

IMO the SVT-40 looks cooler.

isc
April 7, 2011, 10:33 PM
The SKS mechanism was actually based on firing mechanism for a tank's main gun.

I suspect that an SKS action, suitably scaled up could handle the 7.62x54r cartridge. After all, the FAL uses a similar tipping bolt design and the 7.62 Nato round is very close in power to the 7.62x54r.

By mid WWII, the US, Germany, and Russia all developed intermediate cartridges and weapons that fired them. The advantages were obvious (lower recoil, more controllable automatic fire, larger ammo loads and the assault rifle was born.

XxWINxX94
April 7, 2011, 10:38 PM
The SVT 40s are so cool.

Still gotta get me one :banghead:

Broken11b
April 7, 2011, 10:40 PM
Tyeo098, you are correct, after looking into it I was thinking about the AVS-36. Simonov directly designed that one.

and to the op: just get a Mosin Nagant... itll be cheaper than any other 7.62x54R platform

NCsmitty
April 8, 2011, 07:18 PM
An SVT 40 would be a great acquisition, but realistically an FPK/PSL is available, albeit a bit expensive, but is a tough, proven 54R platform and is still used in conflicts in the deserts and mountains far away.



NCsmitty

Vaarok
April 8, 2011, 09:46 PM
Hokay, to clarify:

There was the AVS-36 in 1936, in 7.62x54R, invented by Simonov. It was full auto and not that great. There was a 1938 Red Army Autoloading Rifle Trials upgraded version, but the Tokarev design won that year. Simonov instead built an antitank gun using the mechanism, the PTRS-41, in 14.5x114 and it was wildly successful. In 1945 Simonov scaled down the simplified mechanism so that it could use the new 7.62x39 cartridge, and small trial batches were fielded at the very end of the war as the SKS-45 carbine.

gunokie
April 8, 2011, 09:52 PM
Dunno about the 7.62X54, I believe the SVT 40's were actually based on the old German GEW42, simular to the Swedish Lujman and the Hakim.
The SKS wasn't designed as a "battle rifle", but as a "carbine".
The Chinese did import a very few commercial models in .223 however.
BT

Vaarok
April 9, 2011, 12:12 AM
Gew42? You mean Gew43? Three years later and a flap-locked bolt. Ag42B Ljungmann? Hakim? Mid WW2 and late sixties, respectively, hardly influences.

The SVT 40 was an upgraded version of the SVT-38, which in turn was derived from mid-1930s designs, though some people argue it does look suspiciously like the mechanism of the 1930s experimental FN rifle that later became the EXP-1, SAFN-49 and FAL. But by the same token, the French had been playing with tilting lock bolts since before the first world war, so among the various operation methods, it's not a wild coincidence for the same combination of features to be used in different firearms.

shotgunjoel
April 9, 2011, 12:18 AM
The SVT 40s are so cool.

Still gotta get me one
XxWINxX94, about a year ago I bought an SKS from a dealer in Paxton, Illinois. He had an SVT in the back corner of his rack. This was the kind of shop that some guy opens after he retires, and who's business hours are whenever he's around. Chances are probably good that it's still sitting in that corner. Here's the info:
124 South Market Street
Paxton, IL 60957-1222
(217) 379-0146

-v-
April 9, 2011, 12:58 AM
One of the interesting things about the SVT-38 and SVT-40 is that the Soviets actually manufactured more SVT-40's then we did M1 Garands, but only by a few hundred thousand. I think I read somewhere that for a Guards infantry squad it was not uncommon to have 2 or 3 soldiers equipped with SVT's, the rest with Mosin's, PPSh, and a DP-28 or two.

BananaClip
April 9, 2011, 03:40 AM
Waffen Werks actually has a rifle called the AK54R.. It's actually an AK47 that shoots a 7.62x54R round! Probably not what you had in mind but a pretty cool rifle....

Sam Cade
April 9, 2011, 04:14 AM
Waffen Werks actually has a rifle called the AK54R.. It's actually an AK47 that shoots a 7.62x54R round!

Its just a Romanian PSL with plastic furniture.

Shadow 7D
April 9, 2011, 04:49 AM
Check out the Tiger, which is/was (as it isn't imported anymore)
a civi model of the SVD

ISO1600
April 9, 2011, 12:27 PM
yeah and check out the Tiger's price.

Shadow 7D
April 10, 2011, 12:56 AM
OH, what about the VZ 58??

isc
April 10, 2011, 01:13 AM
OH, what about the VZ 58?? What about it? It has nothing to do with 7.62x54r or the SKS except that it also shoots 7.62x39.

What about the price of corn in china or the moisture content of the wind in the spanish plains?

fireman 9731
April 10, 2011, 02:13 AM
The rimmed cases of x54 ammo are tough to work with in an auto loading rifle. That would probably be my first guess.

jim in Anchorage
April 10, 2011, 02:34 AM
One thing I found interesting when I first bought a SKS in 1990 was the tilting breech lockup is nearly identical to my Pederson designed Rem. model 25 pump built in 1927. Wonder if the Russians ever saw one?

Sam Cade
April 10, 2011, 03:42 AM
During World War II, Simonov designed some firearms of his own; a submachine gun which did not enter production, and a self-loading anti-tank rifle, the 14.5 x 114 mm PTRS, which went on to form the basis — in scaled-down form - of the SKS. An earlier semi-automatic rifle was hindered by official insistence on using the powerful 7.62 x 54 mm R, which was at that point standard amongst Russian rifles; unfortunately, as had been found with Fedor Tokarev's SVT-40, the round's excessive power was detrimental to reliable, rapid function of a semi-automatic rifle.--Wikipedia :-)

caribou
April 10, 2011, 04:06 AM
The SVT-40 was actually taken out of production in 1942, and Mosin production was restablished insted, because it was complex (to drafted pesants) and not very reliable. They were issued mostly to Soviet Navel and Marine Battalions

The Germans liked to capture them because they were the only full power semi automatic battle rifle availible at the front, and were as popular as PPsh-41s to increase the squads firepower untill the SturmGewehr series came up with more firepower for the average german soldiers.

I have a Finn Capture Tula and a refrurb Tula, and both are cranky, but fun to shoot.

Shadow 7D
April 10, 2011, 04:15 AM
The VZ 58 is ALSO a tilt block...

Vaarok
April 10, 2011, 12:19 PM
The Vz-58 is a derivation of the Vz-52, which in turn is a hybridization of the ZH-29, SVT40, M1 Garand, and SKS. Sorta a dogleg branch of firearms evolution, the Czechs always did like to do their own thing.

isc
April 10, 2011, 07:21 PM
the vz 52 and vz 58 use a bolt more like the P38 pistol than any rifle I've ever handled.

If you enjoyed reading about "Why no SKS in 7.62X54R" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!