[12 Volt Man]

Wow. I can't believe this is happening to me. I live in Utah (Davis County) and just moved in to a new house a couple of days before Christmas. I also have a little English Pointer puppy that is only about six months old. For those who have never seen an English Pointer, they are kind of skinny. I put up a 10x12 dog run under the back deck which is completely covered. I also have one of those "igloo" style dog houses. It has been very cold here so each night around 9 to 10pm I have been letting the dog into the garage to sleep in his dog crate. The crate has a blanket and cedar chips to keep him warm. I had been feeding the dog outside but started feeding him in the garage because the water kept freezing. I left two empty feeding bowls out in his dog run. I have two more in the garage where I feed him. I feed the dog Purina Pro plan. Approx 2 cups in the am and 2 more in the pm. I have not missed a day. The dog has never spent a night outdoors since we moved in to this house. Oh I also need to mention that his dog run was dirty with poop. I had not cleaned it yet since we lived there, and had planned to do it on my day off which was yesterday when this all happened.
So a couple days ago an electricial comes to install a light next to the dogrun that was left off. He came to the door while he was there and said to my sister in law (she was babbysitting our kids), "Your dog is cold and needs to come inside" It was probably close to 40 degrees that day. Then she left and took the kids to my daughters dance class. When my wife got home from work, there was a note from animal control on the front door saying they were investigating me for animal cruelty. She went to check on the dog, and it was gone. They took it. Yesterday morning I call Animal Control to find out what the deal is and they tell me. "We took your dog because it was near death, it would not have made it through the night." Then they say that I have to talk to the "officer" in charge of the case. Later he calls me, tells me that I need to come talk to them. I load up the kids and head to the animal control center. He sits me down and read me my rights. "you have the right to remain silent etc...." I could not believe it. It was like I was being arrested. Come to find out. I probably will.
He tells me that they had to take the dog to a vet and that the vets expert opinion is that the dog had not been fed in two weeks. That would mean that I hadn't fed the dog since I lived in the new house. Which is complete BS. I still had the empty cans of food in the garage from that morning and the night before. Which by the way, they never saw because they only say what was outside when no one was home. He would not come back to my house and see the dogs food and sleeping quarters. My Dad brought up a good point when he said. "if it hasn't been fed in two weeks, then where did all the poop in the pen come from". I called a casual aquaintance who is a vet and he agreed. These bastards are trying railroad me here. They tell me they are turning it over to the county prosecuter and they want to charge me with 3 counts of animal cruely. Which could carry up to a year in jail for each. 3 Class B misdemanors. ***? I am only 30 years old, hard working I have two kids and another on the way. I just got in to this new house and I have maybe an extra 200 bucks a month after everything is paid for.
The facts are. The dog has been fed EVERY day. It has never spent a night outside. He was skinney. This breed is a skinney breed. They think I left it out there all day and all night for two weeks with no food or water. AAAAHHHHGHHHH! I am so frustrated about this. I can't believe it. If they send me to jail, I will lose my house job and everything. I can't afford an attorney, and I am afraid if I use theirs I will be hosed even worse.
And here is the other kicker I guess I would probably lose my CCW over this too. Any and all advice and your prayers would be extremely appreciated. Thanks.

Oh also I have never been in any trouble with the law whatsoever. And the night before this happened the dog was running around the garage fine and I was working on some commands sit, stay etc...

[popeye]

When was last time dog was at the vet? Support from him/her could be vital. IMHO.

[12 Volt Man]

It would be vital. Problem is I hadn't taken it there yet. With the Holidays and moving it was not the highest priority. It was planned, just not done yet.

[ojibweindian]

My advice to you is to retain an attorney, though you can't afford one. Believe me, the short term price you pay for one is much cheaper than the long term cost of getting royally screwed by the "justice system".

When I was going through a divorce, I was not in a good financial position. I was still in college and working at a job paying a little over $8 an hour. My ex-wife was slapping me with all sorts of legal crap and hitting me up for tons of alimony based upon my future income as a software engineer.

Without the help of an attorney, the total of $10,000 I spent on my defense would have been easily dwarfed by the loss of my right to keep and bear arms (bogus restraining orders and claims of attempted murder!), the $1000+ a month in alimony, etc, etc, etc.

Again, you need legal counsel. Otherwise, you're nothing more than chum for the sharks.

[nico]

I would demand that MY vet see the dog. Aside from that, I don't know what you could do. That's really a terrible situation

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Get a good criminal defense attorney. Even if it means taking out a home equity loan. You might be able to go after the State for Legal /Court costs, punitive damages for false arrest / imprisonment etc.

Take pictures of the feces as it sits, and save (freeze) all of it you can find from the dog. A good attorney should be able to find a University based Animal Scientist or Vet who can estimate how much you were feeding the dog over the two week period based on the weight and appearanceof the feces. It can also be DNA type matched to the dog to prove it is genuine. And a good Animal Scientist or Vet can also testify as to what the normal range of weight for that breed should for that age, etc.

As was mentioned, get your own vet to evaluate the animal ASAP.

[DesertRat]

12 Volt,

They will likely try to ramrod you into taking some sort of plea. Here is my recommendaiton.

1. Retain a GOOD attorney.

2. Check with the attorney about documenting the puppy crap. Don't remove and dispose of it.

3. Don't throw away the empty dog food cans or other empty food bags.

Next, how long have you had the puppy? If not long, perhaps you can contact the individual from whom you purchased the pup and have them attest to the condition of the dog upon turning it over to you AND that individual should be able to arrange to see the dog immediately.

My advice is to fight this thing tooth and nail. I had a situation where a Game and Fish deputy here in Arizona charged a friend and I for firing across a road. We were out in the middle of the desert, approximately 12 miles from any maintaned road AND we did not fire across the primitive dirt road which he claimed we fired across.

We inquired of the Deputy as to what road we fired across and he stated it was the primitive (read: dirt) road that was behind us from which he entered on. We then asked him to describe what he witnessed. He stated that he "heard" us fire across the road!! ***???

Long story short, the prosecutor tried to ramrod me into accepting a "generous" plea in which we would forfeit our weapons (around $6,000.00 worth of guns), pay a $300.00 fine and plead guilty to a class 3 criminal misdemeanor.

I retained an attorney for $1500 (total) and my attorney stated that the situation was odd, because the Deputy should have seized the weapons right then and there if they truly believed in what they had charged us with.

Next, I showed up at my second pretrail meeting with my attorney. It took the prosecutor over an hour to reach the Deputy who then could not recall the situation that happened four weeks earlier AND HE WAS NOT WILLING TO SHOW UP FOR COURT TO SUPPORT THE CHARGES HE FILED. These guys can be real buttholes.

Oh, by the way, I'm NOT one of those "LEO BASHERS." Law Enforcement Officers DO MAKE MISTAKES. Ironically I, myself, am now an investigator for the Attorney General's Office and I KNOW how (from time-to-time) bogus charges are wrongly filed against honest people. I sincerely hope to run into that Deputy and give him a piece of my mind.

Keep us posted on your situation.

[Pilgrim]

I own whippets. They are supposed to look thin. A whippet or most any dog in good condition will just barely show ribs under their coat. I got that information from some literature on nutrition and health in my veterinarian's office.

I helped prosecute a guy who didn't feed a young whippet for at least ten days. That was the veterinarian's opinion. The young whippet was almost a bony skeleton, his hip bones were clearly protruding. He couldn't even stand on his own without assistance.

Key to the successful prosecution of this particular jerk was I video taped the starved dog and compared him to a whippet pup one month younger than the poor guy. The younger well nourished whippet was almost twice the size of the starved whippet and full of energy.

If the county's retained veterinarian is power feeding your dog, successful prosecution of your case will require detailed photographs of your dog. Video tape is better. When you are arraigned you should demand all copies of photographs taken or video tapes taken of your dog by animal control along with the veterinarian's written report who examined your dog. This should be provided to you at your arraignment.

Be prepared to come up with your experts on English Pointers who will be convincing when they testify what English Pointers are supposed to look like. As soon as possible your attorney should insist the dog be examined by another veterinarian who is not on contract to care for dogs seized by animal control.

Your attorney should also explore the means the animal control officer developed probable cause to believe you were abusing and neglecting your dog. And more so, the authority the animal control officer used to enter your property to seize the dog. Even though the dog was outside, it most likely was in an area you considered private and not open to the public. This area is defined as the curtilege of your home and Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure apply. If the animal control officer lacked probable cause and entered your property illegally to seize the dog, the dog and any evidence derived from that seizure are inadmissible in court.

The electrician who apparently called animal control should be made to attend court. Your attorney should make it very clear he or she intends to examine the electrician to determine if he has any particular biases against dog owners. What is his area of expertise when it comes to determining what is healthy for a dog, and what is abusive.

An aggressive policy by your attorney will make the DA take a closer look at the evidence he has for prosecution.

I wouldn't just roll over and take a plea bargain offer from the DA. They have a nasty way of insisting on probation. The guy I helped prosecute for abusing and neglecting his dog ended up with 90 days in jail, $1,000 fine, and three years probation. The video tape I made of the starved dog was the primary piece of evidence that led to the prosecution and conviction.

During the period of his probation he was not allowed to own or possess any animals. You can bet your booties that hidden in your probation, should you accept it, is a prohibition against possessing firearms.

Get an attorney. If it turns out the animal control officer and the electrician violated your rights, he most likely will help you with pursuing monetary compensation for your attorney's fees and other costs.

Pilgrim

[P95Carry]

!2 Volt .... I hardly know what to say .... much potentially useful advise has already been given .. can't add to that but I am just sitting here shaking my head in near disbelief.:uhoh:

This sounds like one or two ''child abuse'' cases I have heard of ... where something innocent is either misinterpreted or blown up out of all proportion ..... only to result in the most horrendous consequences once the evil ball gets rolling.

Certainly I wonder if the elctrician actually knows squat about dogs and breeds .... and as for the ''not fed for 2 weeks'' .. geez ... that is not even logical.

I sympathize more than I can say .. this is interference, abuse of rights even ..... and just downright stinks judging by your account. ....... which I doubt you would have even written if not for the extremeness of the situation.

Sorry - I am not being any help ... just totally blown away by your predicament.

You HAVE to fight this ... you really do .... and maybe finish up finally making a counter claim to get redress on your expenditure... even if it is drawn out.

[Orthonym]

Isn't there a breeder's association, or breed registry, or something like that, one of whose members might be able to give EXPERT advice?

[Maimaktes]

Fight it tooth and nail, bro, with everything you've got and everything you can get! Good luck and God bless!

This sort of thing is another example of why people who care about their rights need to start putting up *high* privacy fences (or even *walls*) all around their property, and putting gates across their driveways, and keeping those gates locked. And keeping their window drapes or blinds *closed*. And why they need to beware of all the new breed of quisling-like private-sector snoops, snitches, and tattling TIPSters, like that electrician. (I wonder if there's some way you could *sue* his sorry informing @$$?)

Maimaktes

[jimpeel]

Retain a lawyer who has an investigator on his staff. The investigator will collect all of the evidence, photograph the entire scene, go to the pound and photograph the dog, take depositions from any witnesses or neighbors. You need to get photographs of the dog PRONTO before they can claim that they have fattened him up by feeding him after you starved him.

[jimpeel]

Here is a photograph of a full-grown English Pointer, not a puppy. http://www.startribune.com/stonline/images/news60/9hunt10.l.jpg

Doug Lovander, who lives near Willmar, and his English pointer, Zak, serve as symbols of
the relationship between hunter and dog.

Stormi Greener
Star Tribune

Published September 10, 2003
© Copyright 2003 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.

[telewinz]

Don't lose too much sleep, if what you say is true just talk to the prosecutor. He has no desire to fine or throw you in jail. The simple fact is even if you were guilty he cannot devote the time and resources to your case and the jails are way too crowded. Get a lawyer for insurance, but they won't do anything UNLESS the news media gets a hold of the story. Worst case, a small fine. Get on with your life, its not a capital offense!:D
The Animal Shelter people are trying to scare you just to get their "pound of flesh". They have very deep feelings about animals and are more than a little emotional. Your peace of mind alone would be worth the small lawyer's fee and he will let you make small monthy payments. Its quite possible your lawyer will place a short phone conversation with the DA and bye and large it will all go away.

[jimpeel]

Go here http://www.whohasmydog.com/searchbase.htm?&passurl=/Recreation/Pets/Dogs/Breeds/Sporting-Gundog_Group/Pointer/ to find info on English pointers. They have numerous listings for breeders, clubs, and most importantly rescue shelters (2).

Web Pages
Pointer Rescue Inc. - http://www.pointerrescue.org/
Organization helping to place rescued Pointers with adoptive and foster families. Pictures and information on adoptions, volunteering, and donations.
German Shorthair Pointer & Pointer Rescue - http://www.petfinder.org/shelters/TX176.html
List of adoptable dogs, short description of the breed, and contact information.

I believe these people, including their vet, have no idea of what an English Pointer is supposed to look like.

Resource page located HERE (http://www.whohasmydog.com/searchbase.htm?&passurl=/Recreation/Pets/Dogs/Breeds/Sporting-Gundog_Group/Pointer/Breeders#dwtopdw)

http://www.crazyhorsekennels.com/

http://www.vippointers.com/webring.html

http://www.gsinet.net/~cumbrian/

[deanf]

For one thing, I'd be stopping payment on the check I wrote to the electrician.

If he was the impetus for this while thing, you may be able to make his life hard. Ask the attorney that you must hire about that.

[jimpeel]

He has no legal recourse against the electrician unless he can prove that, by his actions, he intended to cause him harm.

As for not paying the bill, that is a BAD, BAD, BAD idea. When work is performed on your home, there is an implied mechanic's lein against the property. It is better to pay the amount and then challenge for it back in small claims or municipal court than to have the lein hanging over the property.

If there is a lein, he will not be able to re-fi, get a loan, or sell the property until the lein is settled. Even if he has the property homesteaded, the homestead will not protect the home from leins against work done on the peoperty. It only protects it against leins that are not against the property like a lawsuit becsue of an automobile accident.

The only thing he can do by refusing to pay is to further complicate his life with someone who already doesn't like him and thinks he tortures animals.

[jimpeel]

You need to ascertain if a warrant to search the property was obtained and have your lawyer demand a copy of the warrant and the name of the judge that signed it.

You also need to get the tape that the city keeps of the calls that come into them if possible, to see what this guy said on the day in question.

[telomerase]

Most dogs in the US are in danger from overfeeding, not underfeeding. Children, too, for that matter. Someone needs to point this out to Homeland Animal Control; they should be be arresting me and my crafty food-stealing Malamutt, not 12 Volt and his supermodel dog. No, wait, I'm sending him to Bally's....

As far as practical advice goes, what everyone has told you is right (especially jimpeel; don't add new legal problems to old): you now have a new full-time job getting this straightened out. At least they haven't killed your dog yet, so that's a bright side... when the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was founded in England, one of the first laws they got passed was a law making it illegal to use working dogs for turning spits, pulling carts, etc. Hundreds of thousands of dogs were put out of work and starved (some people too, but just lower-class types so that was not a problem).

So look; you tried to care for a dog. That's a good deed, and no good deed ever goes unpunished. Hopefully you'll survive without any midnight animal control ninja attacks, and go on to be killed by some completely different government agency (I'd bet on the FDA; they have the most comprehensive ability to prevent life-extending technologies).

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Jimpeel:

That's a heluva fine looking animal. Great picture too, looks a Norman Rockwell painting.

[jimpeel]

I just love Copernic searches!

I'm sure the animal control types would think that animal is underfed and take him away.

That is a great pic, out there in the stubble watching for a fat rooster to fly past at the urging and behest of faithful Fido.

[PCRCCW]

Dude......I was over at your new house and we fed your dog not 2 days ago.......Its amazing what stress will make you forget. You need to call me................Shoot well.

[Edward429451]

And yet somehow, we're to believe that there isn't a police state.

Do not plea bargain. Get an Attorney. The thing you have to file with the court (or your Atty.) to get copies of all evidence that's going to be used against you is called a 'Motion for Discovery' here, dunno if it's called the same thing in your neck o' the woods.

That sucks.

[jimpeel]

Remind them often -- very often -- of how much of your children's food they have taken off their table by causing you to redirect those funds to fighting this specious case.

In all liklihood, they will probably be happy that your children will starve as they are not as good as the animals whose habitat they are ruining with their encroachment because of your overbreeding.

[popeye]

Dogs like yours are bred for broad chests and narrow waists. Typical hunters. To a doofus, this may appear as underfeeding. Ask these morons if they ever heard of bloat. If your description of circumstances is correct, your only slip up is crap control.

I've got two small dogs one 10 lbs., one 15 lbs.. Both house dogs. Mr. 15 lb. is mean as a snake. I have given him away 2 times, both times I got him back. TOO MEAN. He's bitten me several times over the years. We've learned to tollerate each other. About 2 years ago I was trimming his nails outside on the porch. That function generates 95% of bite response. Sure enough, chomp, he got me. I picked him up by the scruff of the neck, he had uh, oh, look in his eye. I explained to him his attitude was unexceptable, and put him down. The next day there was an unsigned letter in my mail box telling me to quit my abuse or face being turned into animal control. Letter also said they would be watching me.

[jimpeel]

If your description of circumstances is correct, your only slip up is crap control. Conversely, crap control failure may be his sole saving grace against their accusations. Nothing in -- nothing out. What are they going to claim, that is was he who went out in the run and took a big gruntsy every day?

[Ebbtide]

Get a lawyer for insurance,

Reminds me, will your home owners policy cover a lawyer? I recall some have provisions for attorney fees, but never had to use it.

[popeye]

True enough about amount of crap. Only a forensic canine crapologist could determine how much crap, over what period of time equals correct feeding. My concern is appearance of condition of run. (It snowed here 7 days ago, my 30 X 30 run is full of crap from 25 lbs. worth of dogs). They could get me on appearances.

At this point I won't make any more comments. I appologize if my comments were misconstrued as negative.

[deanf]

He has no legal recourse against the electrician unless he can prove that, by his actions, he intended to cause him harm.

I'm aware of that. That's why I said he should consult counsel.

That being said, you know, I know, and the American people know that anybody can be sued for anything, and if 'twas me, after I got finished with the criminal charge, I'd be looking to make the electrician's life hard.

Perhaps the suggestion to withhold payment was premature.

[XavierBreath]

Retain an attorney. Without one you are toast. If you win, consider your own lawsuit to make up for your losses.

[RightIsRight]

#1 Consult local gun clubs and hunting dog breeders in your area. Inquire about any attorneys that may be affiliated with the clubs.

#2 Call these attorneys.

Many lawyers that have a personal interest in a certain area (in your case, dogs and extrapolated; hunting dogs and further extrapolated; guns.) will lower their rates or even go pro bono.

[jimpeel]

The most important thing is to get an independent evaluation of the animal before they can claim that they are responsible for the dogs current healthy condition.

[ksnecktieman]

I think you are going to be shafted for attorneys fees, but that is the lesser of two evils.

Monday morning I would talk to two people, first, a vet, explain the facts, and ask him to witness your garage set up, empty food containers, and feces collection (for freshness and quantity). Make it plain to him you do not expect this to be for free, his time is money. Then he should go look at the dog for signs of undernourishment. He may be able to suggest a lawyer for you. Your first consultation should be free. If the vet will write a statement that he has checked the dogs condition and housing/feeding arrangements, and they are satisfactory (100$? would be reasonable?) Show that to the attorney, and everything should fade away with a second hundred to the attorney.

Good luck, and keep us informed about your contact with the jack booted thugs.:mad:

Of course you know that the final insult is when they hand you a bill for 100$ for vets exam and boarding for the weekend?:banghead:

[Harry Tuttle]

i would imagine theres alot of pain and suffering in your family from the kidnapping of your dog that was perpetrated by the electricians unprofessional behaviour

[clubsoda22]

Of course you know that the final insult is when they hand you a bill for 100$ for vets exam and boarding for the weekend?

If any, that's the bill you don't pay.

[BowStreetRunner]

if theres one thing ive learned in law school the past semester (and im not sure of much else right now) its that you need an attorney
if the district attorney knows you will fight it i doubt he'll go to court over a "skinny" dog
you need to know your rights and have someone who can help you protect them and DO NOT plea bargain when you arent guilty
i know the cost is prohibitive but try and find an attorney, preferably one recommended by friends or like a previous poster said, recommended by a hunting club or gun club........an attorney who works in that area in criminal defense may also have advantages over an attorney from farther away who does not know the judge and prosecutors (one of my profs is a defense attorney and gets plea bargains all the time from ex-students :) )
collect the dog waste, take pictures, get experts
dont give up and dont give in........you know whats right
and by the looks of it you have PCRCCW as a witness
good luck man
BSR

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Monday morning I would talk to two people, first, a vet, explain the facts, and ask him to witness your garage set up, empty food containers, and feces collection (for freshness and quantity). Make it plain to him you do not expect this to be for free, his time is money. Then he should go look at the dog for signs of undernourishment. He may be able to suggest a lawyer for you. Your first consultation should be free.

Asking a Vet for a legal referral is a good suggestion. They would know of lawyers who are experienced in veterinary medical malpractice. That's exactly the kind of legal experience that's called for in this case. That's the type of lawyer who has experience in proving the condition of animals at certain times and as a result of certain kinds of treatment.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

i would imagine theres alot of pain and suffering in your family from the kidnapping of your dog that was perpetrated by the electricians unprofessional behaviour

Suing someone for filing a false police report is difficult. There is assumed to be a strong State and public interest in allowing people to report suspicous activity without fear of reprisal.

To prevail in such a suit one must prove malice on the part of the reporting individual. That's going to be difficult absent some history between the dog owner and electrician.

Loss of companionship with the animal, emotional trauma to the parents and kids at being seperated from the dog, are all good causes on which to sue the State however.

[hillbilly]

Going into this fight without an attorney would be the equivalent of taking the proverbial knife to the proverbial gun fight.

On another note, this is why I live on 30 rural acres in the Ozark Mountains outside of any city limits.

Any electrician or other busybody who made a report like that would be endangering himself out here.

And I pity any poor sap who would come onto a man's property out here to confiscate his dog.

hillbilly

[Pendragon]

I think the dog cops are often quite nuts.

Like a lot of dog people.

Dont get me wrong - I am related to a lot of dog lovers. People who will spend any amount of money to patch up a dog, who volunteer for shelters, who call the dogs their "children".

Thats fine - it makes them happy, its how they are wired.

I like dogs a lot, but they are just animals. I could eat one if I had to and I would never allow a vet bill to hit four figures.

Anyway, I think you got a dog lover on your case - and probably an ignernt ;) one at that.

Get the attorney - attorneys are like guns, you hope you never need one, but when you need one, nothing else will really substitute.

Play hardball, get mean - lots of nice people don't know how to do this - I hope this is not you. Nice people get hosed in situations like this because they believe if they can just get the other side to see what a well meaning person they are...

Get one of those assault lawyers - they extra scary kind.

[Bill Hook]

All I can say is that your dog ought not to be left outside when there is no one home and that the doggy-do, while of use in your defense, gave an appearance of neglect that precipitated a busybody to intervene to start with. Skinny, short-haired dogs really ought not to be left out in 40 degree weather for more than an hour.

Where was your dog during the incident and did he have access to shelter?

BTW, your SIL sounds like a dipsh-t for not securing the dog before leaving.

[Graystar]

Skinny, short-haired dogs really ought not to be left out in 40 degree weather for more than an hour. I wasn’t going to say anything but since someone else brought it up…

Although I grew up with dogs I don’t really have solid knowledge about caring for them. So I did some research into dog care, focusing on 6 month-old puppy care and weather tolerance specific to English Pointers. From what you described, it’s possible that you were not caring for your dog properly.

While German Pointers may tolerate the cold well, English Pointers do not. Puppies are even less tolerant. Upon review of some animal care legislation, I found that some areas prohibit keeping dogs outside when the temperature drops below 40. You said that the water in his bowl was freezing. That means you were keeping him outside when it was below 32 degrees. While such legislation may not exist in your area, I present it only as an indication that “experts” may consider your care negligent for keeping the dog outside, especially since the dog is a puppy. Unless the garage was heated, I don’t think that offers much defense.

As for feeding him, from my research it appears that you were on the low end of “appropriate.” However, because you were keeping the dog outside in very cold weather, the dog would have consumed a large amount of energy just to keep warm. This is very bad for 6-month-old puppies. A 6-month-old puppy is nearly full size and eats about twice the amount of food an adult will because the dog is still growing. Since the dog was expending so much energy in heating itself, it is possible that the dog could presently be malnourished.

My layman’s assessment is that you’re in serious trouble. You MUST get a lawyer that is familiar with these types of cases and you MUST get a vet to examine the dog AND examine test results from tests taken when the dog was brought in. This is important because the animal will recover (IF there was anything to recover from) fairly quickly once the vet starts pumping him full of antibiotics and other quick-healing drugs and nutrients. In two days a dog in bad shape can be in okay shape.

If no tests were performed on the dog, then it’s the vet’s word against yours. You can use this fact in your defense, as the vet couldn’t really know for sure if the dog was malnourished without testing. Expert opinion is powerful testimony, but it is still only testimony, not evidence.

English Pointers need lots of space…they need to roam. Keeping such a dog in a 10x12 cage is not good for the dog’s mental health.

Good Luck. I’m afraid that you’re going to need it. :(

[WilderBill]

You definately need one of those deadly, high capacity assault lawyers.:D
It might be possible to find one that could defend you on the criminal charges for a large cut of what he could get from the civil case that should follow.
In any event DO NOT GIVE IN!

[Jeff Thomas]

You've heard it over and over, and I've been in your financial predicament ... but you need to find some way to secure legal counsel.

Having said that, the comments above remind me of a situation I saw in the parking lot of a theater in Dallas the other evening... dog carrier in the back of a pickup, looked like a pit bull inside, temperature below 40 and a bit of a wind. The dog was barking, and shivering, and I expect his owner was in for a 2 hour movie. I felt sorry for the little guy, and while I respect private property rights, the situation did not look reasonable.

You know your situation best, and while I can understand the frustration about the electrician, I can also understand his concern for the dog. With respect, it sounds like he tried to politely suggest better treatment because of the cold.

Good luck ... hope it works out for you and your pup.

Regards from TX

[12 Volt Man]

I truely appreciate the insight and suggestions so far. Monday morning I will be making many phone calls. I will keep you guys updated. Thanks.

[BHPshooter]

Hey 12 Volt Man, check your PMs. ;)

Wes

[Graystar]

I'm kinda surprised this thread hasn't been closed. It's not gun related. :confused:

[jimpeel]

The General Gun Discussions forum is the only one that is dedicated to firearms related threads only. L&P is not.

[Graystar]

Jimpeel,

From other closed threads...

1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.
2.) Multiple user registrations are prohibited.
3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here.
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5.) We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say".Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts. This thread is related to neither firearms nor civil liberties issues.

[jimpeel]

Yeah, I saw that earlier. It seems Coronach is gleefully skipping about closing threads.

The rules he posted are from the general rules of conduct but the L&P forum clearly states:Get informed on issues affecting the right to keep and bear arms and other civil rights. Coordinate activism, debate with allies and opponents. Discuss laws concerning firearm ownership, concealed carry and self-defense.Basically, if the rules he posted were to be rigorously enforced, there would be about fifty percent fewer threads posted here. I mean, how are these related to firearms or civil liberties?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58797

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58707

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58650

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58817

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58622

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57664

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58694

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58786

And those are just from page one of the index.

What they are is highly informative and I personally believe they are appropriate to the forum. I have participated in most of them as well. Just because someone posts something like "and to make this thread firearms related" doesn't necessarily "make the thread firearms related".

[Stealth101]

12 Volt
I feel your pain dude.....just remember you did no wrong!
Alot a of good advice has been given on how to protect yourself and your hunting dog! (firearms related!) Anyway once my wife and I moved into a new house....we hadnt even been there a day and some busybody gossiped to a neighbor on how we didnt have a dog house and they would call animal control if I didnt ! needless to say I was outraged ....they didnt come over to say welcome, but they sure were full of judgement! My wife had actually gone to buy a new house for our golden that same day, as his old one had broken....if the busybody had taken the time to get to know us they would have known the real skinny......in your case it could have been any liberal , bambyist who caused your trouble .............at any rate you need to move swiftly to protect yourself and not let their headtrips bog you down!
Good Luck and let us all know how it goes........

[Jim Diver]

I would also sue the cops as individuals.. Let them get a taste of the trouble they so willingly gave to you. When you win your dog back and sue the city/county, don't forget the icing and go after the cops badge.

Please keep us updated on this abuse of police power.

[gabeodog]

The same sortta thing happend to me exept it was hot not cold.
I have a bluetick that I brought with me to my mothers in NY and my neighbor called the cops cause she said the dog was to hot with no water.
This was my hunting dog and he was fine (w/water) the cop asked to see my dog. I showed him. He chuckled said thats a fine dog and left.
The moral of my story is I know my dog and what is good or bad for him
and knowone else has the right to invade privacy.
Get a lawer and sue for invasion of privacy and defomation of carictor.
And trama inflicted on the dog.
There have been worse suits

[DorGunR]

There have been worse suits

Yeah........hot coffee and McDonalds comes to mind.

[12 Volt Man]

Just so you know I thought about the whole "firearms related" thing and still decided to post this. He is a hunting dog, and I am afraid if they try to prosecute me and convict me of some sort of BS, I will lose my CCW license.

Issue is still ongoing, it is early Monday morning. I decided to come to work and not miss any pay over this. I will be making some calls on my breaks. I think I am going to ask for my Vet to be able to examine the dog and go from there.

[joelr]

You've been given, it seems to me, some really good advice about getting a lawyer, and not trying to handle this yourself.

Hope you do.

Regardless of what the facts are -- and I'm perfectly willing to take your word that they're as you say they are -- you've gotten on the wrong side of the local nanny state authorities, and, regardless of what the underlying facts are, they're clearly out to get you, even if only, at this point, to show that they weren't in the wrong before.

It's a safe bet that they won't be reasonable, and that you won't be able to reason your way out of it.

My own take -- and IANAL, but I know a few -- is that at the very least, any time that an official reads you your rights, the answer is, "I need to speak to my attorney, and I do not consent to any search." (There's plenty of other times when that's the right thing to say, too.)

[Graystar]

I feel your pain dude.....just remember you did no wrong! And how exactly do you know that? The fact that a puppy was kept out in below 40 weather is itself questionable.

[Partisan Ranger]

I'd agree that 12 Volt was probably borderline negligent. Keeping a puppy in the cold probably isn't right.


But come now. Ruin a man's life for a shivering dog? It isn't as if he did anything malicious. There is a slight difference between negligence and purposely hurting an animal. I think we have some overly-zealous dog lovers taking out their life frustrations on a poor guy who made an honest mistake.

Worst case, they should make him take dog care classes at his expense or something.

If I were you and they took me to the wall on this, I'd fight them to the death with the best attorney I could afford. Good luck and please tell us how it's going.


By the way, you are doing a public service by sharing this terrible situation with us. I'll make G.D. sure whenever we get a dog that the dog-Nazis can't ever nail me like they're doing to you. Thanks.

[joelr]

You don't have to know whether not he's guilty of anything to know that he definitely needs a lawyer at this point.

I'd argue that it shouldn't be that way -- but it definitely is that way.

[fix]

I'd be looking to make the electrician's life hard.

That could be done by spreading the word that he is a busybody who has trouble focusing on his work.

[TheeBadOne]

Origionally posted by Jim Diver:

I would also sue the cops as individuals.. Let them get a taste of the trouble they so willingly gave to you. When you win your dog back and sue the city/county, don't forget the icing and go after the cops badge.

Please keep us updated on this abuse of police power.
In your rush to judgement you overlooked 12 volt man's post stated:

"When my wife got home from work, there was a note from animal control on the front door saying they were investigating me for animal cruelty."

Guess that blows your "abuse of police power" comment (along with suing "the cops").

2 cents

[Andrew Rothman]

The dog was not simply "outside." According to 12 Volt Man's first post, the dog was in a run under a porch, and further had access to an "igloo type" dog house.

Like joelr, I live in Minnesota, which gets, I believe, considerably colder than Utah. The standard here, according to Minneapolis police, it that a dog in a shelter is NOT presumed to be mistreated, regardless of cold temperature (hot weather is another matter).

[joelr]

Well, sure, Matt; that's the standard. There are portions of Utah that get a lot colder.

That said, I'm not at all sure that the original poster was or wasn't doing anything wrong. I don't have enough information, and I haven't heard the other side.

But, regardless of whether or not what we've heard here is accurate or complete, it's very clear that, once the authorities got themselves involved, he needs an attorney, for a lot of reasons. As he speculated, it's not impossible that even a misdemeanor conviction for animal cruelty -- even if, say, it were part of a zero-time, zero-fine plea bargain -- could be used against him at some future time, when applying for a carry permit, or in any other context.

I know a guy -- not me, honest -- who pled out, many years ago, to a misdemeanor of domestic violence, during a nasty divorce. (He said that he'd never so much as raised his hand in anger to his wife, and that it was just her and her lawyer playing hardball. I believe him, but I could be wrong.)

Years later, he's not only ineligible to get a carry permit, but to so much as touch a rifle.

Could this turn out the same way? I wouldn't want to bet that it couldn't.

[BHPshooter]

I'd agree that 12 Volt was probably borderline negligent.

How do you figure? It may do some good to go back and read the initial post, as 12 Volt stated that his dog run is under is porch, is completely covered, and he has a dogloo (very warm). On top of that, it hasn't been that cold in central Utah. 12 Volt's estimation of 40 degrees is about right... just a reminder: that's ABOVE freezing. It may be different if he was leaving the dog in a snowdrift in Logan Canyon (lowest recorded temp in the western US).

He also said that the dog is inside when he is around, and is let inside to eat and sleep.

If the dog was the subject of negligence, it would act like a neglected dog.

It was also said that there was dog crap in the run... as previously mentioned, if the dog hadn't had any imports, there'd be no exports either.

Wes :scrutiny:

[BHPshooter]

Well, sure, Matt; that's the standard. There are portions of Utah that get a lot colder.

And those portions are not in Davis County. You're thinking of a couple hundred miles farther north -- like in Cache County.

Wes

[Russ]

Sorry to hear that happened to you. I have a Boxer. She is small and has always been skinny. We tried to fatten her up to no avail. I finally met a breeder of Boxers who told me what a beautiful dog she was and that she was supposed to be skinny. He said she was perfect as is. He told me because she was a large chested dog, she did not need to be fat. Large chested dogs that are fat die early and painfully. There I had it from an expert. For years I was trying to make her something she wasn't.

My Boxer is 13 years old. This is 3-5 years older than the average. What a wonderful and awesomely beautiful dog she has been. I have never seen a dog that can move so fast or gracefully. Truly impressive. We have always treated her as if she were one of our children.

I'm sure you treated your dog like that too. Too bad the people who try to enforce animal cruelty laws don't have a clue about most breeds they deal with. Certainly they deal with some low life persons that don't take care of their animal but that has to be the rare exception.

Like many previous posts, get a breeder or specialist to help you. Chances are they won't even charge you once you give them some evidence.

[Carlos Cabeza]

12v man, sorry to hear of your misfortune. The lesson it seems here is:
Put dog inside whenever your expecting outsiders in, around, or near your home. The word "dog" could be substituted for many other things like guns, jewelry, dirtbike, ATV, snowmobile etc. It's too bad that we can't have possessions that aren't coveted or looked upon with prying eyes. There are people who have nothing better to do than to scrutinize the way in which you/ I / we live. BTW, if your dog looks like the one in the picture, English Pointers are some very majestic and beautiful dogs.

My Vet always says "A hungry dog is a healthy dog" :) I hope you're able to sort things out in a way that doesn't hurt you too seriously. Good Luck.

[moa]

Is it possible the dog has parasites such as worms? That might affect its condition.

[telomerase]

I'd agree that 12 Volt was probably borderline negligent. Keeping a puppy in the cold probably isn't right.

Oh, come on. When I was a kid, my bedroom in the farmhouse was a lot colder than 40 degrees, and I didn't have a Dogloo. Dogs don't have sweat glands (except on their feet, if they're not Malamutes), and do have fur. As long as they are well-fed, they'll be fine.

[LifeNRA]

Have to agree with telomerase. When I was a kid all we had to heat with was a fireplace. We would pile as many blankets on as we had and shiver anyway. We always built doghouses for our dogs and put hay in them for warmth. No matter how cold it would get at night our dogs would be up and about the next day. I really wish people would mind thier own business. Too many busy bodies these days. If that do gooder had seen as many stray dogs shot and killed as I have seen he would have a heart attack. Sorry I have no advice for you but you seem to have gotten the best advice already.

[Stealth101]

Graystar....
IMO The man did no wrong ....the dog is 6mo. old and is fully capable of 40 degree weather, with an insulated dog house ta boot!
My Dad raised English pointers and hunted for quite afew years I know he didnt pamper the dogs but he surely didnt abuse them either ! He loved em ! Some how just listening to 12 Volts angst I can see he loves his dog.......and did no wrong.....
My Golden retreiver by the way is outside in a hell of lot more colder weather.....he loves every minute of it too....and will rarely use his house...he would rather lay in the snow.....we live at 10,000 feet as well....

[12 Volt Man]

OK here is an update. Things are looking up a little. I started the day making many calls that were unreturned. I called the head of animal control, the county commissioner and the county prosecutors office. I finally got a call from the supervisor of the "officer" working on this. I explained my side a little more and asked that they come inspect my property inside where the dog was fed and slept. We agreed to meet at my house. I also requested that my vet be able to examine the dog. They said aggreed to that as well. It did not seem to go anywhere when they came to the house. They were very aggressive and not very nice.
Then off to the vet. They said they would meet us there with the dog. when we got there the dog looked fine and was excited to see us. He was hyper as usual. My vet inspected the dog and found many things to verify my story. One thing of note was that he said the dog had a nice layer of fat on his belly that would not be there if the dog was not being fed. He also had great muscles in his front and back legs. There is more but I will save that info for when it is needed. He also has another vet that rents space in his building. He asked her to come give an assessment of the dog. He did not tell her anything of the story. They both came up with the same results. Exept the second vet decided to check the stool for worms. Turns out the dog had a type of worm (round worms I think) and they are passed on from the mother. This could contribute to the skinnyness of the dog too.
Animal control said that they were still going to keep the dog in their custody. I asked if my vet could board the dog if he agreed not to release it until they said. They agreed. My vet now has the dog and I feel better. I also feel like if they try to prosecute they don't have much.
Here is a pic I took at the vet. See for yourself. Thanks again for the support. Please keep any ideas coming.

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/17203cooper_010_001-med.jpg

Just for comparison. A pic of the sire of the dog.
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/17203Geronimoe333.jpg

A pic of the sire when he was young.
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/17203Youngmoe1.jpg

[RightIsRight]

There are some valid points on both sides of the issue.

However, English Pointers are NOT cold weather dogs. They have thin one layer coats that are not conducive to long periods in the cold. That said, I do not know the exact conditions this dog was kept in (yeah, I got the general idea), so I will reserve judgement.

Stealth101 and others, different breeds have very different tolerances for heat and cold. Just because your Golden loves the cold, does not mean a greyhound will.

My full grown pointer gets cold and starts to shiver after being out on a 30 degree day for half an hour. My black lab can stay out all day in a full snowstorm and never come to the door to be let in. Conversely, the lab can't tolerate a 45 minute walk w/o water in 95 degree heat whereas the pointer can run all day on a few sips of H20.

[P95Carry]

Pelvic region looks a tad ''lean'' 12 Volt but ... the worms will have had some effect - and they are well common.

Apart from that ... fine lookin pup .... and I hope now more that this can become a ''storm in a teacup''.

[Jim Diver]

I think it is now clear that the officers have NO CLUE what they are talking about and should have released the dog to you after your vet saw the animal.

I would bill them for boarding fees at the vet.. After all, they are so incompetent they don't know a healthy animal when they see one, how can they be trusted to keep said animal healthy?

I would definitely hire a lawyer and sue the hell out of them. I wonder what would happen if you filed a stolen property report with LEO? There is clearly no claim for them to keep your dog. If I was in your position, I would sever all contact with the county officials and refer them to my lawyer. No point letting them work you over when you can have a pit bull work them over.

[RightIsRight]

In my most non-expert opinion, 12volt, he does look a bit thin. But that could be the worms. And pointers are a "thin" breed.

From the tone of your comments and the attitude of the state, I would say that you are in the right. I hope you get your little guy back without further problems.

[Jeff Thomas]

12 Volt Man ... beautiful pup, and parentage. Glad to hear things are working out. Your story is a good lesson.

Regards from TX

[Cosmoline]

Get lots of photos. Esp. of the dog waste in the pen, the old cans of dog food, etc. Then get affidavits from everyone who can verify that the dog was fed.

I suspect your dog may be sick or have a bad case o' worms. I've seen sick hunds put down a brick of lard and not put on any weight when they're infected with worms.

As far as the cold, a dog with no undercoat and in good health can easily take 40 degrees. Dogs with undercoats can take much colder temps.

But what's the BFD with shivering? I shiver all the time up here. Doesn't mean someone is being cruel to me, just that it's darn cold. The dogs will shiver, too. It's a way of warming up.

[Cosmoline]

..after reading more.

It WAS the verms! I knew it! Those wee little guys can put away an amazing amount of dog food. And it's NO reflection on you that your dog has worms. They're easy to pick up and (thankfully) easy to get rid of with the right meds.

[c_yeager]

Thee Bad One, In many states the "animal control" people ARE sworn law enforcement officers. And in states where they arent they often need to be attended by the real cops in order to enter private propert (i.e. PC). SO to say that the police were in some way involved is a pretty safe bet. Their level of involvment however depends on how they do it in that particular location.

[jimpeel]

Those protruding hip bones are likely what they were going by when they stated the dog was underfed.

In the old days, people would worm their dogs by forcing them to swallow a copper penny. Another cheap way to worm them is to force a clove of garlic down his gullet. The worms hate the stuff.

The signs of worms are anal scratching either by biting or dragging the buttocks along the ground. When they start doing this, its time for the garlic.

[Jim Diver]

One other idea I had while pondering this situation is that you should keep a detailed log of times (starting and ending) of all things that you did while working this problem. It could be used later by an attorney when you sue and and could be used in your defense.

[BHPshooter]

Glad to hear things are looking up a little, even with the Gestapo still calling the shots with your pup.

You pointed out that he was energetic, as always... if the dog had been unfed or left out in extreme temperatures, his level of energy would have been indicative of that.

I'm not a sue happy person, but I hope you sue them out of existence. :evil:

Wes

[12 Volt Man]

OK I will be getting my dog back today :D

Late in the day yesterday I finally got a call back from the "officer" working on the issue. She said that they had been with the county attorney all day and they felt like they had enough to prosecute me. Then she stated that they were willing to make a deal. I said that it depended on what the deal was. She stated that I had to pay their vet bill $180.00. Also clean the dog run with bleach, get a heated dog dish, and insulate his dogloo better. This tells me that probably they DID NOT have enough to prosecute or they would have. It sucks to pay their crooked vet's bill, but it beats the cost of an attorney. I am sure they will be coming back from time to time to see what is happening with the dog.
Not sure of other plans from here on out other than I will document everything that happens with the dog and everything I buy the dog.
Anyone have any idea's on insulating a dogloo? I thought those houses were pretty warm to begin with. I could build a new house with actual insulation I guess.
Thanks to those who supported this little battle with the powers that be.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lessons learned.

1. CYA. Save all reciepts pertaining to your animals care food etc.
2. Do not procrastinate vet visits for any reason.
3. Be very careful who you let on your property.
4. You guys in these forums are a great source of info and support!
5. Apparantly in the world of animal cops, you are guilty until proven innocent.
6. It is very hard to prove your innocence.
------------------------------------------------------------------

[joelr]

And do remember the mantra:

"I need to speak to my attorney, and I do not consent to any search."

[geekWithA.45]

they had been with the county attorney all day...

WOW! Your county attorney must be really, really, bored. :fire:

I'm really glad you got your dog back. If it where my pup, I'd be going ballistic.


This is a classic example of what happens when you swirl together some ignorance, pettyness, and a touch of power.


Be careful of what you sign re: "the deal".

[dtt]

That's a beautiful pup you've got, 12 Volt. It's a shame you had to deal with some morons. I mean, every puppy goes through at least one period where it gets really thin. If they really had enough to prosecute you, they'd be doing a lot more than asking for reimbursement and some cosmetic changes. You could easily improve the house by wrapping it in some insulation & then covering that with plywood or mdf sheets. See if you can get copies of all their paperwork for your records. FOI should mean this isn't a problem.

I'm glad you have a personal list of lessons learned, even though you were in the right. It shows you're a smart person

[ksnecktieman]

I think I would have to educate them a tiny bit just because I could. I would email or snail mail the maker of the igloo, and ask what conditions the igloo (provide model number if there is one) is adequate for. Provide them with dogs breed and size, and ask them if additional insulation is needed and at what temps the igloo would be inadequate. Ask also if they have an "extreme weather" insulation kit for it, or a better igloo for colder conditions. I am betting their response will be enough that a commercial shelter will never be challenged again by these officers. If so, forward the response to animal control with the information that you will not insulate it.

I think when this is all resolved a letter to the editor in your local paper might be a good idea. ( Shine the light of publicity on the jack booted busy bodies).

[Harry Tuttle]

Their offer is an indication of their weak case

if you pay, its an admission of guilt

if they pay, its an admission of their incompetance

they don't want to admit that

[Leatherneck]

OK, 12V--not to second-guess you, but I smell cow feces from the dogcops. All day with the county attorney--yeah, right. She was lying to you. I, for one, can't stand to be lied to by my employees. I'd have their butt in court, or at least in the media! But it's your life, not mine. So good luck with your fine-looking Pointer.

TC
TFL Survivor

[BHPshooter]

These guys are right, you're getting jerked around. Nothing, especially not "animal rights" commands an entire day with the CA. But you're also right that it's less expensive than getting an attorney.

Be very wary if they want you to sign anything. :scrutiny:

Glad it's going alright.

Wes

[Jim Diver]

I agree. I would stil push with an offensive. These people need to be delt with or the next poor victim may get even worse. I would consult an attorney before I signed anything or payed them.

Something stinks there.

[ojibweindian]

I would not pay as that may be construed as an admission of guilt should something like this happen again.

Tell them to pay their own damn vet bills; you have your own to worry about.

[joelr]

It's easy for those of us who aren't involved to be very brave with somebody else's liberty and money, but I don't think it's wrong for him to be realistic.

It's clear that he's right; if they had sufficient evidence for prosecution and they wouldn't be giving him his dog back, much less not prosecuting. At the very best they'd be going for a plea-bargain in trying to get ihim to overtly admit to at least something.

But they're not.

That said, the best possible thing for him, in practice, is just for them to go away, and not come back. Dealing with the doggie version of the Ministry of Love isn't going to be much more pleasant than dealing with the kiddie version of it.

It's going to run him about $200.00, as it is. Add in a decent if not particularly high priced lawyer, and it'll be thousands of dollars before he gets to court, at which point his lawyer will get to fight a sovereign immunity claim by the doggie cops. Even if he wins, how often do you hear about huge punitive damages being assessed against cops, much less dogcatchers?

Pay the money, and let them go away, and stay away.

[Bill Hook]

Situational awareness. When someone says something to you about the welfare of child or animal, expect them to do something if you don't.

I still think 40 degrees is kinda cold for an exposed dog, but not for one who has shelter from wind and rain. I'd use hay, pine straw, etc. as an insulator, esp. since dogs like to "dig in" (mine trys this with the covers) and will bury themselves in the bedding.

I'd pay the bill, be more careful, and NOT SIGN ANYTHING but a claim slip for the dog or the billing statement, and not those before reading the fine print, TWICE.

[joelr]

"Situational awareness. When someone says something to you about the welfare of child or animal, expect them to do something if you don't."

Amen. The best response, in this situation, was probably something on the order of, "I'll certainly see to that right away, and thank you for bringing it up", followed by a letter firing him.

This was obviously awful, but can you imagine if, instead of the dog, he'd been, say, letting his (hypothetical) twelve-year-old kid have a BB gun? The Ministry of Love would have kicked his doors down.

[buzz_knox]

She said that they had been with the county attorney all day and they felt like they had enough to prosecute me.

Standard opening gambit no 3. It's a freaking lie.

[citizen]

Best of luck here; be careful.
BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE- since they want you to pay for vet bill, get the original. His report. Deal with any of those issues first. Follow-up with an interview. Anything kinky, back away. If possible get a clean bill of health from THAT vet and ANOTHER when the pup is retrieved. Avoid any agrement to re-evaluate again at a later date. Close the door, pay up, and return to your normal life....hopefully it will be this simple. Again, BOL.

[jimpeel]

She stated that I had to pay their vet bill $180.00. Also clean the dog run with bleach, get a heated dog dish, and insulate his dogloo better.Tell them that while you believe their suggestions on the run and igloo have merit, it was not you who made a decision to take the dog to their vet. That was their decision and they should do the honorable thing and pay the debt which they incurred.

Tell them that you will also be doing the honorable thing and paying the bill for the services of the vet that you chose to enlist on your dog's behalf.

Tell them that if they insist you pay their bill, that you will sue in small claims court to have the amount returned.

[ballistic gelatin]

What business does an officer have telling you the terms of any deal? Shouldn't that be the role of the county prosecture? Cops don't do that stuff.

[jimpeel]

What business does an officer have telling you the terms of any deal? Shouldn't that be the role of the county prosecture? Cops don't do that stuff.Quite true!

Tell them that you want the county prosecutor to proffer the deal and for the animal officers to cease all communications with you.

[Blackcloud6]

Don't do anything except go see a lawyer. Go see one of those $50 ones or some starving lawyer.

Don't make a deal unless advised by an attorney that represents you to do so.

The cop, prosecutor, dogcatcher, nor the mayor has your interest at heart. They are out to do what they have to do.

If you sign something you may be signing something that may bring pain years down the road. There are nuances in the law that can come back to bite your hiney.

When you are dealing with t people who have arrested you they are the enemy. Our court system is adversarial. You don't talk to them have someone talk to them for you.

[Stand_Watie]

I took care of a pointer (stray) for a couple weeks. It was as skinny as a rail, ate more than my 80 pound shepherd mix (and would have eaten more if I'd let it) and constantly casted the pasture around my house, wouldn't sit still for a minute.

I thought he was starved when he first showed up, but he never put on a pound.

[Sergeant Bob]

Also clean the dog run with bleach, get a heated dog dish,
Bleach a dog run? What balderdash!! For cryin' in the bucket! Sometimes dogs eat their own poop! They drink out of toilets! They roll around in rotted, maggot infested animal carcasses! They consider garbage cans a doggy buffet! They lick their own.....you know.
And they want you to bleach the dog run?
Idiots!!!

[telewinz]

IF you don't have to admit guilt, take the deal. Just like I said the prosecutor is not going to waste tax-payer money (his budget) on this matter. I would still talk to an attorney, the first visit is free. You have nothing to lose by at least seeing him once, don't guess how much it will cost ASK HIM! Good Luck

[only1asterisk]

I'd get a lawyer and a lock for the dog run. They have nothing, they know it.

David

[Yowza]

The thing that disgusts me more than anything else about this is that the vet the county took the dog to charged $180 to basically glance at the dog and make up some BS about its condition. Can you find out anything more about this quack they took your dog to? I have my doubts they actually had a vet inspect the dog at all, but if they did I would seriously consider a campaign against his/her business if I were in your place.

Rick

[Art Eatman]

The first few responses to get a lawyer should have been sufficient advice. Sure, we're all in accord that it's a phoney deal, but it shouldn't take five pages to deal with a fairly simple problem.

Enuf.

Art