stinger 327
April 11, 2011, 11:57 AM
Generally which cartridge does more damage to tissue?
115 9mm +P+ HP or 125 grain .38 +P HP in 125-158 grain range?:confused:
115 9mm +P+ HP or 125 grain .38 +P HP in 125-158 grain range?:confused:
9mm vs. .38 +P special
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InkEd
April 11, 2011, 12:30 PM
It really depends alot on the exact bullet being used in the cartridge. Both will work fine and IMHO +P+ is a bit of overkill when using a well designed HP especially in 9mm.
stinger 327
April 11, 2011, 01:24 PM
It really depends alot on the exact bullet being used in the cartridge. Both will work fine and IMHO +P+ is a bit of overkill when using a well designed HP especially in 9mm.
Like Hornady Critical Defense ammo, Corbon Powerball, or Gold Dot Ammo?
Forgot to mention the .38 would be a Snub nose revolver almost 2 inch barrel.
Like Hornady Critical Defense ammo, Corbon Powerball, or Gold Dot Ammo?
Forgot to mention the .38 would be a Snub nose revolver almost 2 inch barrel.
SaxonPig
April 11, 2011, 01:44 PM
Any bullet will do a lot of damage to tissue. Bullet design is maybe more of a factor than is velocity. A solid bullet at any speed does less damage than does a bullet that upsets or fragments.
Factory +P+ 9mm using the 115 JHP clocks 1250 FPS in my tests. This is substantially faster than factory +P 38 Special 125s which go 925 FPS from a 4" revolver. The 300 FPS advantage of the 9 would make it more powerful than the 38 +P which is actually a fairly mild load. Some people think it's hot because of marketing but it is not. I load 125s to a clocked 1150 FPS for my 38s. This is still below the 9mm +P+ which operates at a higher chamber pressure. I once loaded some 110 JHPs to over 1400 FPS from a 4" M10 S&W but these exceeded SAAMI pressure limits.
Factory +P+ 9mm using the 115 JHP clocks 1250 FPS in my tests. This is substantially faster than factory +P 38 Special 125s which go 925 FPS from a 4" revolver. The 300 FPS advantage of the 9 would make it more powerful than the 38 +P which is actually a fairly mild load. Some people think it's hot because of marketing but it is not. I load 125s to a clocked 1150 FPS for my 38s. This is still below the 9mm +P+ which operates at a higher chamber pressure. I once loaded some 110 JHPs to over 1400 FPS from a 4" M10 S&W but these exceeded SAAMI pressure limits.
InkEd
April 11, 2011, 01:48 PM
Those are all good designs and will work fine.
Furncliff
April 11, 2011, 01:55 PM
This might be a start...http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/
stinger 327
April 11, 2011, 02:17 PM
Any bullet will do a lot of damage to tissue. Bullet design is maybe more of a factor than is velocity. A solid bullet at any speed does less damage than does a bullet that upsets or fragments.
Factory +P+ 9mm using the 115 JHP clocks 1250 FPS in my tests. This is substantially faster than factory +P 38 Special 125s which go 925 FPS from a 4" revolver. The 300 FPS advantage of the 9 would make it more powerful than the 38 +P which is actually a fairly mild load. Some people think it's hot because of marketing but it is not. I load 125s to a clocked 1150 FPS for my 38s. This is still below the 9mm +P+ which operates at a higher chamber pressure. I once loaded some 110 JHPs to over 1400 FPS from a 4" M10 S&W but these exceeded SAAMI pressure limits.
Those Corbon loads in 115 grain 9mm+ are 1,400 fps. Same goes for the Powerball loads from Corbon.
Factory +P+ 9mm using the 115 JHP clocks 1250 FPS in my tests. This is substantially faster than factory +P 38 Special 125s which go 925 FPS from a 4" revolver. The 300 FPS advantage of the 9 would make it more powerful than the 38 +P which is actually a fairly mild load. Some people think it's hot because of marketing but it is not. I load 125s to a clocked 1150 FPS for my 38s. This is still below the 9mm +P+ which operates at a higher chamber pressure. I once loaded some 110 JHPs to over 1400 FPS from a 4" M10 S&W but these exceeded SAAMI pressure limits.
Those Corbon loads in 115 grain 9mm+ are 1,400 fps. Same goes for the Powerball loads from Corbon.
txhoghunter
April 11, 2011, 06:12 PM
idk...let me grab some kleenex and test it real quick.... ;) sorry, sarcasm is my way to try to find humor in all of these "this vs. that" threads and I admit that was a pretty bad attempt at it
but in all honesty I would think it to be a fairly close comparison.
but in all honesty I would think it to be a fairly close comparison.
stinger 327
April 11, 2011, 11:20 PM
Those are all good designs and will work fine.
Buffalo Bore loads come to mind.
Buffalo Bore loads come to mind.
SaxonPig
April 12, 2011, 12:13 AM
S327- I usually don't take the specialty loads into consideration due to lack of popularity, cost, and my own ignorance on them.
ArchAngelCD
April 12, 2011, 12:19 AM
If I thought the 9mm would stop the bad guy faster than a .38 Special +P I would carry a 9mm but I don't. Current bullet design makes the .38 Special a very good man stopper even from a 2" barrel.
stinger 327
April 12, 2011, 01:07 AM
If I thought the 9mm would stop the bad guy faster than a .38 Special +P I would carry a 9mm but I don't. Current bullet design makes the .38 Special a very good man stopper even from a 2" barrel.
just looking at the size difference of the bullet casings one would think the .38 + P would have the advantage.
just looking at the size difference of the bullet casings one would think the .38 + P would have the advantage.
ArchAngelCD
April 12, 2011, 02:09 AM
just looking at the size difference of the bullet casings one would think the .38 + P would have the advantage.
If you are talking about the case itself, not really! The .38 special has such a big case because it was originally designed for Blackpowder. The 9mm was never loaded with Blackpowder so it's much smaller. The current .38 Special SAAMI pressure limits are 17,000 psi whereas the 9mm's limits are 35,000 psi. Only the .357 Magnum mimics the pressures developed by the 9mm, not the .38 Special. anyway, that shouldn't be the focus IMO, it should be energy transfer and bullet design. Since the bullets for both calibers can be the same design there's no clear "winner" there which leaves energy. In that department the 9mm probably wins until you get into the heavier bullets then the .38 Special +P probably takes an edge. If you really want to compare it should be the 9mm and the .357 Magnum. The Magnum is what the .38 Special could be when loaded right! LOL
If you are talking about the case itself, not really! The .38 special has such a big case because it was originally designed for Blackpowder. The 9mm was never loaded with Blackpowder so it's much smaller. The current .38 Special SAAMI pressure limits are 17,000 psi whereas the 9mm's limits are 35,000 psi. Only the .357 Magnum mimics the pressures developed by the 9mm, not the .38 Special. anyway, that shouldn't be the focus IMO, it should be energy transfer and bullet design. Since the bullets for both calibers can be the same design there's no clear "winner" there which leaves energy. In that department the 9mm probably wins until you get into the heavier bullets then the .38 Special +P probably takes an edge. If you really want to compare it should be the 9mm and the .357 Magnum. The Magnum is what the .38 Special could be when loaded right! LOL
stinger 327
April 12, 2011, 02:44 AM
If you are talking about the case itself, not really! The .38 special has such a big case because it was originally designed for Blackpowder. The 9mm was never loaded with Blackpowder so it's much smaller. The current .38 Special SAAMI pressure limits are 17,000 psi whereas the 9mm's limits are 35,000 psi. Only the .357 Magnum mimics the pressures developed by the 9mm, not the .38 Special. anyway, that shouldn't be the focus IMO, it should be energy transfer and bullet design. Since the bullets for both calibers can be the same design there's no clear "winner" there which leaves energy. In that department the 9mm probably wins until you get into the heavier bullets then the .38 Special +P probably takes an edge. If you really want to compare it should be the 9mm and the .357 Magnum. The Magnum is what the .38 Special could be when loaded right! LOL
so perhaps the 158 grain .38's might fare better?
so perhaps the 158 grain .38's might fare better?
ArchAngelCD
April 12, 2011, 03:38 AM
That depends on barrel length and velocity. Most .38 Special +P ammo uses a lighter bullet because they want to safely achieve velocities that are guaranteed to expand the bullet reliable.
I carry either the Speer 135gr Short Barrel round of the Remington FBI Load depending on which J frame I'm carrying.
IMO you're over thinking this matter too much. Buy a few different rounds and find the ammo that shoots accurately in your revolver and stick with it. In the end it's shot placement that will count more than anything else.
I carry either the Speer 135gr Short Barrel round of the Remington FBI Load depending on which J frame I'm carrying.
IMO you're over thinking this matter too much. Buy a few different rounds and find the ammo that shoots accurately in your revolver and stick with it. In the end it's shot placement that will count more than anything else.
sixgunner455
April 12, 2011, 04:30 AM
Handgun energy transfer is a myth. Handgun bullets, fired from common service caliber firearms, simply do not move fast enough to do anything of the sort. Rifles do it, but even then, performance is not guaranteed. One-shot stops are a statistical anomaly, and are not to be relied upon. Handgun hollowpoint expansion is iffy, no matter how advanced or reliable your chosen bullet does in expansion tests.
The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.
Repeat, as necessary.
Expansion, if it happens, is a bonus.
Weird things happen when bullets impact flesh. Sometimes, they hit exactly where you want and they do exactly what you would expect them to do, and the target doesn't react "right". Sometimes, they hit in the wrong spot, don't do what you want them to inside the target, and still the target goes down.
.355 vs .357? Pressure=velocity. Bullet design, gun design, and hitting the target are the more important things to worry about. The .38 can safely throw a *much* heavier bullet, but without violating the standard, accepted safe pressure limits, cannot catch up with the 9mm in speed. Heavy bullets generally penetrate better than light ones do, so my personal choice is to carry 124 or 147 grain bullets in a 9mm rather than 90 to 115 grains, and 125, 140, 148, and 158 grains in .38 Special, rather than 90 to 110. 125 grains are only for my aluminum snubbies. Everything else should be throwing heavier slugs.
The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.
Repeat, as necessary.
Expansion, if it happens, is a bonus.
Weird things happen when bullets impact flesh. Sometimes, they hit exactly where you want and they do exactly what you would expect them to do, and the target doesn't react "right". Sometimes, they hit in the wrong spot, don't do what you want them to inside the target, and still the target goes down.
.355 vs .357? Pressure=velocity. Bullet design, gun design, and hitting the target are the more important things to worry about. The .38 can safely throw a *much* heavier bullet, but without violating the standard, accepted safe pressure limits, cannot catch up with the 9mm in speed. Heavy bullets generally penetrate better than light ones do, so my personal choice is to carry 124 or 147 grain bullets in a 9mm rather than 90 to 115 grains, and 125, 140, 148, and 158 grains in .38 Special, rather than 90 to 110. 125 grains are only for my aluminum snubbies. Everything else should be throwing heavier slugs.
AK103K
April 12, 2011, 08:38 AM
If you really want to compare it should be the 9mm and the .357 Magnum.
I tend to agree. I emailed Speer awhile back with a question on the difference between 9mm and 357SIG. Their response was, rounds of the same caliber using the same weight bullet, and loaded to the same pressures, would give basically the same results.
That puts some +P+ 9mm and the 357SIG in the same basic category from the "power" respect.
Using that same logic, it puts some of the 9mm and some 357MAG loadings in the same categories.
The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.
Repeat, as necessary.
This basically is it, and you need capacity to do the "repeat as necessary" part.
Considering that most encounters wont be your typical "stand at the bench and leisurely shoot little bragging right groups at bullseye type targets", and the probability that under stress, and while jumping/running around, youre not likely to get those little groups youre so proud of, are you "really' comfortable with 5 rounds of .38? Its going to take what it takes, until its done, and wont necessarily be following the "rule of threes" youre constantly told is all you need worry about.
My Glock 26 has replaced my 642's for the most part, for all of the above reasons, and a couple more. The 26 is very close in size, is a lot easier to shoot well with, carries a hotter round, and double to six times what the 642's do, and its a lot quicker and easier on the reload, if it were needed.
I tend to agree. I emailed Speer awhile back with a question on the difference between 9mm and 357SIG. Their response was, rounds of the same caliber using the same weight bullet, and loaded to the same pressures, would give basically the same results.
That puts some +P+ 9mm and the 357SIG in the same basic category from the "power" respect.
Using that same logic, it puts some of the 9mm and some 357MAG loadings in the same categories.
The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.
Repeat, as necessary.
This basically is it, and you need capacity to do the "repeat as necessary" part.
Considering that most encounters wont be your typical "stand at the bench and leisurely shoot little bragging right groups at bullseye type targets", and the probability that under stress, and while jumping/running around, youre not likely to get those little groups youre so proud of, are you "really' comfortable with 5 rounds of .38? Its going to take what it takes, until its done, and wont necessarily be following the "rule of threes" youre constantly told is all you need worry about.
My Glock 26 has replaced my 642's for the most part, for all of the above reasons, and a couple more. The 26 is very close in size, is a lot easier to shoot well with, carries a hotter round, and double to six times what the 642's do, and its a lot quicker and easier on the reload, if it were needed.
MikeNice
April 12, 2011, 10:39 PM
A .38spl+p out of a snub nose will meet the FBI requirements in bare gel. Read the old article pocket full of dynomite. (http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/index2.html)
Speer has released a Gold Dot that performs even better than the one in that test. Winchester has released updated and improved hollow points in .38spl+p since then.
I use the .38spl+p 158gr LSWC-HP sold under the Federal Classic (LE) brand. In my own informal testing it has performed well. It went through four layers of old khaki pants and four water jugs. Three rounds averaged .556 inches of expansion.
That was with a three inch barrel. I feel confident that with that kind of performance a .38spl+p round can do nearly anything a 9mm can. The question is, do you feel comfortable with only five or six shots?
Speer has released a Gold Dot that performs even better than the one in that test. Winchester has released updated and improved hollow points in .38spl+p since then.
I use the .38spl+p 158gr LSWC-HP sold under the Federal Classic (LE) brand. In my own informal testing it has performed well. It went through four layers of old khaki pants and four water jugs. Three rounds averaged .556 inches of expansion.
That was with a three inch barrel. I feel confident that with that kind of performance a .38spl+p round can do nearly anything a 9mm can. The question is, do you feel comfortable with only five or six shots?
stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 12:24 AM
Handgun energy transfer is a myth. Handgun bullets, fired from common service caliber firearms, simply do not move fast enough to do anything of the sort. Rifles do it, but even then, performance is not guaranteed. One-shot stops are a statistical anomaly, and are not to be relied upon. Handgun hollowpoint expansion is iffy, no matter how advanced or reliable your chosen bullet does in expansion tests.
The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.
Repeat, as necessary.
Expansion, if it happens, is a bonus.
Weird things happen when bullets impact flesh. Sometimes, they hit exactly where you want and they do exactly what you would expect them to do, and the target doesn't react "right". Sometimes, they hit in the wrong spot, don't do what you want them to inside the target, and still the target goes down.
.355 vs .357? Pressure=velocity. Bullet design, gun design, and hitting the target are the more important things to worry about. The .38 can safely throw a *much* heavier bullet, but without violating the standard, accepted safe pressure limits, cannot catch up with the 9mm in speed. Heavy bullets generally penetrate better than light ones do, so my personal choice is to carry 124 or 147 grain bullets in a 9mm rather than 90 to 115 grains, and 125, 140, 148, and 158 grains in .38 Special, rather than 90 to 110. 125 grains are only for my aluminum snubbies. Everything else should be throwing heavier slugs.
With the little mouse guns like .25 ACP or .32 ACP they say you are better off with the FMJ bullets to get the most penetration should you end up with one of these highly concealable guns.
The two most important things are: (1)hitting your target accurately (2)with a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt vital organs or structures enough to stop an attacker from being able to do anything but lie down and cry.
Repeat, as necessary.
Expansion, if it happens, is a bonus.
Weird things happen when bullets impact flesh. Sometimes, they hit exactly where you want and they do exactly what you would expect them to do, and the target doesn't react "right". Sometimes, they hit in the wrong spot, don't do what you want them to inside the target, and still the target goes down.
.355 vs .357? Pressure=velocity. Bullet design, gun design, and hitting the target are the more important things to worry about. The .38 can safely throw a *much* heavier bullet, but without violating the standard, accepted safe pressure limits, cannot catch up with the 9mm in speed. Heavy bullets generally penetrate better than light ones do, so my personal choice is to carry 124 or 147 grain bullets in a 9mm rather than 90 to 115 grains, and 125, 140, 148, and 158 grains in .38 Special, rather than 90 to 110. 125 grains are only for my aluminum snubbies. Everything else should be throwing heavier slugs.
With the little mouse guns like .25 ACP or .32 ACP they say you are better off with the FMJ bullets to get the most penetration should you end up with one of these highly concealable guns.
sixguns4fighting
April 13, 2011, 02:16 AM
Keith bullet (Lyman #358429) over a stout load of 2400 FTW!
stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 11:31 AM
Keith bullet (Lyman #358429) over a stout load of 2400 FTW!
Don't understand what this means?
Don't understand what this means?
golden
April 13, 2011, 02:00 PM
327,
Except for the lightest, smallest gun, I would go with the 9m.m.
The standard 9m.m. using a good bullett and most of them are these days is more powerful than the .38 Special +P. It is a matter of velocitiy, barrel length and pressure, these usually favor the 9m.m., even at standard pressure.
If you want a deeper penetration, you can go with the .38 Special +P using the 158 lead hollow point (never use the non-hollow point as a defense load unless you really, really want to find out what happens when a bullet overpenetrates).
Also, the non-hollowpoint 158 grain load had a popular nickname among police, the WIDOWMAKER. It earned it with many failure to stop cases.
In my own revolvers, the 158 +P loads, I found recoil to be heavy. I choose to load 110 grain .357 loads in my revolvers instead of the .158 +P for that reason. They have similar recoil and stopping power with a slight edge to the 110 grain load.
The 9m.m. in +P and +P+ are a class above the .38 Special and equal low end .357 Magnum loads. When my agency used the .357 Magnum, we used the 110 grain hollow point at 1,300 feet per second. We had no complaints about stopping power.
The 115 grain +P+ load I was issued for my GLOCK 19 fired a 115 grain jhp at 1,300 feet per second. You can see why the +P+ 9m.m. loads gained such a hot reputation.
I have carried the .357 Magnum on duty using both the 110 grain and 125 grain loads. The 125 grain load is a heavy recoiling load that has earned a fearsome reputation.
I have also used the 9m.m. and .40 S&W calibers and of them all, I choose the 9m.m. for my house gun and concealed carry when I carry a full size or compact gun.
For me at least, the 9m.m. has the best combination of recoil, stopping power and capacity. My BERETTA, GLOCK, SIG, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD or WALTHER give me a minimum of 27 rounds available when I carry with 1 spare magazine. That beats 12 rounds (10 rounds in a 5 shot .38 Special).
I recommend that you shoot a 9m.m. and .38 Special side by side on a qualification course and decide which gun works for you. Then choose your ammo.
Either will do the job, but I think the 9m.m. will do it better.
Jim
Except for the lightest, smallest gun, I would go with the 9m.m.
The standard 9m.m. using a good bullett and most of them are these days is more powerful than the .38 Special +P. It is a matter of velocitiy, barrel length and pressure, these usually favor the 9m.m., even at standard pressure.
If you want a deeper penetration, you can go with the .38 Special +P using the 158 lead hollow point (never use the non-hollow point as a defense load unless you really, really want to find out what happens when a bullet overpenetrates).
Also, the non-hollowpoint 158 grain load had a popular nickname among police, the WIDOWMAKER. It earned it with many failure to stop cases.
In my own revolvers, the 158 +P loads, I found recoil to be heavy. I choose to load 110 grain .357 loads in my revolvers instead of the .158 +P for that reason. They have similar recoil and stopping power with a slight edge to the 110 grain load.
The 9m.m. in +P and +P+ are a class above the .38 Special and equal low end .357 Magnum loads. When my agency used the .357 Magnum, we used the 110 grain hollow point at 1,300 feet per second. We had no complaints about stopping power.
The 115 grain +P+ load I was issued for my GLOCK 19 fired a 115 grain jhp at 1,300 feet per second. You can see why the +P+ 9m.m. loads gained such a hot reputation.
I have carried the .357 Magnum on duty using both the 110 grain and 125 grain loads. The 125 grain load is a heavy recoiling load that has earned a fearsome reputation.
I have also used the 9m.m. and .40 S&W calibers and of them all, I choose the 9m.m. for my house gun and concealed carry when I carry a full size or compact gun.
For me at least, the 9m.m. has the best combination of recoil, stopping power and capacity. My BERETTA, GLOCK, SIG, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD or WALTHER give me a minimum of 27 rounds available when I carry with 1 spare magazine. That beats 12 rounds (10 rounds in a 5 shot .38 Special).
I recommend that you shoot a 9m.m. and .38 Special side by side on a qualification course and decide which gun works for you. Then choose your ammo.
Either will do the job, but I think the 9m.m. will do it better.
Jim
stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 02:19 PM
golden 327,
Except for the lightest, smallest gun, I would go with the 9m.m.
The problem with 9mm Auto is jamming. Revolver will be more dependable. If something needed for light and small something like a Ruger LCR +P .38 would serve well.
Except for the lightest, smallest gun, I would go with the 9m.m.
The problem with 9mm Auto is jamming. Revolver will be more dependable. If something needed for light and small something like a Ruger LCR +P .38 would serve well.
ArchAngelCD
April 14, 2011, 01:34 AM
Sorry but in an SD situation if you need 27 rounds you better do a lot more practicing.
I just love all the "fear talk" about running out of ammo when carrying a revolver but I have still to hear of anyone actually running out of ammo in a normal SD situation.
I just love all the "fear talk" about running out of ammo when carrying a revolver but I have still to hear of anyone actually running out of ammo in a normal SD situation.
AK103K
April 14, 2011, 09:41 AM
Sorry but in an SD situation if you need 27 rounds you better do a lot more practicing.
How do you know what youre going to need? Do you have a crystal ball that tells you how many rounds to put in the gun that day?
Ive never understood how having more rounds available is bad. No one says you have to use them, and Id rather have 16 left in my 17 shooter, than to need number 6 in my 5 shooter.
but I have still to hear of anyone actually running out of ammo in a normal SD situation.
Starts at page 32....
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/
This was just "one on one", and at contact distances. Assuming the cop had "some" training, he still ran his gun to slide lock (14 rounds with 7 hits), as did his opponent (9 rounds with 1 hit).
If you arent practicing as "realistically" as possible, then youre very likely going to be way behind the curve when the time comes you need your gun.
Shooting tight little groups on a bullseye target at your leisure proves noting as to your true capabilities. It simply shows you have the basics down, and your stagnating.
If you can make good "hits" under some stress, on realistic targets, from the holster and while moving while getting the gun in action and while shooting, then youre on the way.
If you think youre just going to stand there, and place one perfect shot on each target, and its going to be enough, whos kidding who?
How do you know what youre going to need? Do you have a crystal ball that tells you how many rounds to put in the gun that day?
Ive never understood how having more rounds available is bad. No one says you have to use them, and Id rather have 16 left in my 17 shooter, than to need number 6 in my 5 shooter.
but I have still to hear of anyone actually running out of ammo in a normal SD situation.
Starts at page 32....
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/
This was just "one on one", and at contact distances. Assuming the cop had "some" training, he still ran his gun to slide lock (14 rounds with 7 hits), as did his opponent (9 rounds with 1 hit).
If you arent practicing as "realistically" as possible, then youre very likely going to be way behind the curve when the time comes you need your gun.
Shooting tight little groups on a bullseye target at your leisure proves noting as to your true capabilities. It simply shows you have the basics down, and your stagnating.
If you can make good "hits" under some stress, on realistic targets, from the holster and while moving while getting the gun in action and while shooting, then youre on the way.
If you think youre just going to stand there, and place one perfect shot on each target, and its going to be enough, whos kidding who?
Ben86
April 14, 2011, 02:56 PM
Being roughly the same size they make about the same sized hole, unless you use expanding ammunition. With expanding ammunition the 9mm has the edge with better expansion and velocity. I don't have much confidence in temporary cavities with handgun rounds. Also, keep in mind the resulting velocity you will get from the barrel length of the weapon you will actually carry this ammo in when making your comparison. Most listed .38 sp velocities are from a 4 inch barrel, not a snubbie.
stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 03:06 PM
Being roughly the same size they make about the same sized hole, unless you use expanding ammunition. With expanding ammunition the 9mm has the edge with better expansion and velocity. I don't have much confidence in temporary cavities with handgun rounds. Also, keep in mind the resulting velocity you will get from the barrel length of the weapon you will actually carry this ammo in when making your comparison. Most listed .38 sp velocities are from a 4 inch barrel, not a snubbie.
The 9mm seems to be the favorite because of extra added firepower but still hopefully you know which ammo to put in or it isn't finicky about ammo. The .38 on the other hand is more dependable in this area. 9mm has been criticized for not stopping a person but again in other countries they seem to favor this caliber. Maybe there is a reason why different militaries of different countries don't use a revolver?
The 9mm seems to be the favorite because of extra added firepower but still hopefully you know which ammo to put in or it isn't finicky about ammo. The .38 on the other hand is more dependable in this area. 9mm has been criticized for not stopping a person but again in other countries they seem to favor this caliber. Maybe there is a reason why different militaries of different countries don't use a revolver?
LawofThirds
April 14, 2011, 03:09 PM
158g @ 1000fps out of a S&W 2" J-Frame. Buffalo Bore. And before you say "It's specialty ammo!?!", I can find it at my local big box sporting warehouse and has been around long enough that I think we can call it even less of a "specialty ammo" than the hornady critical defense or any other mixed media bullet.
I think it's been shown that the super light 115's, while certainly capable of stopping a person in ideal situations, tend to fail spectacularly when the stars are not aligned. Couple that with current hollow point technology that provides a bullet that can open at low velocities and still provide excellent penetration and there's no reason not to go heavy (unless you like shallow, messy gsw's).
I think it's been shown that the super light 115's, while certainly capable of stopping a person in ideal situations, tend to fail spectacularly when the stars are not aligned. Couple that with current hollow point technology that provides a bullet that can open at low velocities and still provide excellent penetration and there's no reason not to go heavy (unless you like shallow, messy gsw's).
stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 04:21 PM
158g @ 1000fps out of a S&W 2" J-Frame. Buffalo Bore. And before you say "It's specialty ammo!?!", I can find it at my local big box sporting warehouse and has been around long enough that I think we can call it even less of a "specialty ammo" than the hornady critical defense or any other mixed media bullet.
I think it's been shown that the super light 115's, while certainly capable of stopping a person in ideal situations, tend to fail spectacularly when the stars are not aligned. Couple that with current hollow point technology that provides a bullet that can open at low velocities and still provide excellent penetration and there's no reason not to go heavy (unless you like shallow, messy gsw's).
I have shot the BB load in .357 125 grain. It's a real kicker nothing like none other. I have seen that 158 BB in HP.
I think it's been shown that the super light 115's, while certainly capable of stopping a person in ideal situations, tend to fail spectacularly when the stars are not aligned. Couple that with current hollow point technology that provides a bullet that can open at low velocities and still provide excellent penetration and there's no reason not to go heavy (unless you like shallow, messy gsw's).
I have shot the BB load in .357 125 grain. It's a real kicker nothing like none other. I have seen that 158 BB in HP.
golden
April 14, 2011, 10:35 PM
327,
I said that in all but the SMALLEST GUN, I would choose the 9m.m. In a gun the size of a S&W J-frame model, I would go with a revolver (and I do use either a TAURUS model 85 or S&W model 36) when I choose a gun of this size AND WEIGHT.
I highlighted weight because weight has a BIG EFFECT on recoil. I used to own a KAHR 9m.m. and sold it because the combination of light weight (17 oz.) and thin grip made it uncomfortable to shoot.
I could shoot off a box of ammo and qualify, but did not enjoy it. So I sold it.
I stick with FEDERAL NYCLAD 125 grain Chief's Special load. Recoil is within my tolerance and the round will expand. Again, this is based on recoil and controllability, not any feed problems.
STINGER, if you cannot find a reliable 9m.m., all you really need is to buy a BERETTA 92 or 8000 (except for the 9000 model), GLOCK 17 or 19, SIG 226, 228 or 229, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD or WALTHER P-99. I have shot thousands of rounds through the above listed pistols and NEVER found them unreliable or finicky.
I know there are others, but these are the 9m.m. pistols that I have personally shot and know they are not the least bit finicky about factory ammo.
If you have been using one of the 1911 pistols in 9m.m. or a pistol made before 1980 or so, you may have problems with ammo, but all of the popular pistols out there right now are pretty reliable.
If your gun is still finicky, use only REMINGTON 115 grain jhp or 115 grain jhp +P. Very few guns will not feed this ammo.
I have a SIG 225 which will not feed anything but ball, so I load it with COR BON POWERBALL ammo. I trust it enough that my wife carries it.
As to my liking at least 27 rounds, I cannot see how having LESS is an advantage. It somehow escapes me. Sort of like the guy who does not wear a bullet proof vest when he goes to make an arrest, because nothing will happen unless it is his time to go.
ArchAngel, you just keep believing that way and I will just keep carrying my 2 dozen rounds or more.
Oh, I have qualified every time I have gone to the range on my agency's qualification course for the past 19 and a half years. How about you?
I have done it with the .357 magnum, the 9m.m. using +P+ and the .40 S&W.
Jim
I said that in all but the SMALLEST GUN, I would choose the 9m.m. In a gun the size of a S&W J-frame model, I would go with a revolver (and I do use either a TAURUS model 85 or S&W model 36) when I choose a gun of this size AND WEIGHT.
I highlighted weight because weight has a BIG EFFECT on recoil. I used to own a KAHR 9m.m. and sold it because the combination of light weight (17 oz.) and thin grip made it uncomfortable to shoot.
I could shoot off a box of ammo and qualify, but did not enjoy it. So I sold it.
I stick with FEDERAL NYCLAD 125 grain Chief's Special load. Recoil is within my tolerance and the round will expand. Again, this is based on recoil and controllability, not any feed problems.
STINGER, if you cannot find a reliable 9m.m., all you really need is to buy a BERETTA 92 or 8000 (except for the 9000 model), GLOCK 17 or 19, SIG 226, 228 or 229, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD or WALTHER P-99. I have shot thousands of rounds through the above listed pistols and NEVER found them unreliable or finicky.
I know there are others, but these are the 9m.m. pistols that I have personally shot and know they are not the least bit finicky about factory ammo.
If you have been using one of the 1911 pistols in 9m.m. or a pistol made before 1980 or so, you may have problems with ammo, but all of the popular pistols out there right now are pretty reliable.
If your gun is still finicky, use only REMINGTON 115 grain jhp or 115 grain jhp +P. Very few guns will not feed this ammo.
I have a SIG 225 which will not feed anything but ball, so I load it with COR BON POWERBALL ammo. I trust it enough that my wife carries it.
As to my liking at least 27 rounds, I cannot see how having LESS is an advantage. It somehow escapes me. Sort of like the guy who does not wear a bullet proof vest when he goes to make an arrest, because nothing will happen unless it is his time to go.
ArchAngel, you just keep believing that way and I will just keep carrying my 2 dozen rounds or more.
Oh, I have qualified every time I have gone to the range on my agency's qualification course for the past 19 and a half years. How about you?
I have done it with the .357 magnum, the 9m.m. using +P+ and the .40 S&W.
Jim
stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 11:52 PM
327,
I said that in all but the SMALLEST GUN, I would choose the 9m.m. In a gun the size of a S&W J-frame model, I would go with a revolver (and I do use either a TAURUS model 85 or S&W model 36) when I choose a gun of this size AND WEIGHT.
I highlighted weight because weight has a BIG EFFECT on recoil. I used to own a KAHR 9m.m. and sold it because the combination of light weight (17 oz.) and thin grip made it uncomfortable to shoot.
I could shoot off a box of ammo and qualify, but did not enjoy it. So I sold it.
I stick with FEDERAL NYCLAD 125 grain Chief's Special load. Recoil is within my tolerance and the round will expand. Again, this is based on recoil and controllability, not any feed problems.
STINGER, if you cannot find a reliable 9m.m., all you really need is to buy a BERETTA 92 or 8000 (except for the 9000 model), GLOCK 17 or 19, SIG 226, 228 or 229, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD or WALTHER P-99. I have shot thousands of rounds through the above listed pistols and NEVER found them unreliable or finicky.
I know there are others, but these are the 9m.m. pistols that I have personally shot and know they are not the least bit finicky about factory ammo.
If you have been using one of the 1911 pistols in 9m.m. or a pistol made before 1980 or so, you may have problems with ammo, but all of the popular pistols out there right now are pretty reliable.
If your gun is still finicky, use only REMINGTON 115 grain jhp or 115 grain jhp +P. Very few guns will not feed this ammo.
I have a SIG 225 which will not feed anything but ball, so I load it with COR BON POWERBALL ammo. I trust it enough that my wife carries it.
As to my liking at least 27 rounds, I cannot see how having LESS is an advantage. It somehow escapes me. Sort of like the guy who does not wear a bullet proof vest when he goes to make an arrest, because nothing will happen unless it is his time to go.
ArchAngel, you just keep believing that way and I will just keep carrying my 2 dozen rounds or more.
Oh, I have qualified every time I have gone to the range on my agency's qualification course for the past 19 and a half years. How about you?
I have done it with the .357 magnum, the 9m.m. using +P+ and the .40 S&W.
Jim
I already have a reliable G-17, G-21 and G-23 among others. The Glocks are reliable. I just wouldn't leave it around cocked with one in the chamber. In the revolver it's already there just pick it up and shoot. That Corbon Powerball is another hot load that is designed for the finicky eaters. The 9mm just seems to be a small bullet. I prefer the .45 ACP over it as I can hit more with it.
Those light revolvers made out of special metals like Scandium? from S & W.
They are ultra light and no fun to shoot. Just a last resort type of gun. LCR Ruger is 13.5 ounces and the .357 counter part LCR is 17 ounces. I bet these light carry guns really bite back. But when your adrenalin is going you probably won't notice the gun exploding in your hand.
I said that in all but the SMALLEST GUN, I would choose the 9m.m. In a gun the size of a S&W J-frame model, I would go with a revolver (and I do use either a TAURUS model 85 or S&W model 36) when I choose a gun of this size AND WEIGHT.
I highlighted weight because weight has a BIG EFFECT on recoil. I used to own a KAHR 9m.m. and sold it because the combination of light weight (17 oz.) and thin grip made it uncomfortable to shoot.
I could shoot off a box of ammo and qualify, but did not enjoy it. So I sold it.
I stick with FEDERAL NYCLAD 125 grain Chief's Special load. Recoil is within my tolerance and the round will expand. Again, this is based on recoil and controllability, not any feed problems.
STINGER, if you cannot find a reliable 9m.m., all you really need is to buy a BERETTA 92 or 8000 (except for the 9000 model), GLOCK 17 or 19, SIG 226, 228 or 229, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD or WALTHER P-99. I have shot thousands of rounds through the above listed pistols and NEVER found them unreliable or finicky.
I know there are others, but these are the 9m.m. pistols that I have personally shot and know they are not the least bit finicky about factory ammo.
If you have been using one of the 1911 pistols in 9m.m. or a pistol made before 1980 or so, you may have problems with ammo, but all of the popular pistols out there right now are pretty reliable.
If your gun is still finicky, use only REMINGTON 115 grain jhp or 115 grain jhp +P. Very few guns will not feed this ammo.
I have a SIG 225 which will not feed anything but ball, so I load it with COR BON POWERBALL ammo. I trust it enough that my wife carries it.
As to my liking at least 27 rounds, I cannot see how having LESS is an advantage. It somehow escapes me. Sort of like the guy who does not wear a bullet proof vest when he goes to make an arrest, because nothing will happen unless it is his time to go.
ArchAngel, you just keep believing that way and I will just keep carrying my 2 dozen rounds or more.
Oh, I have qualified every time I have gone to the range on my agency's qualification course for the past 19 and a half years. How about you?
I have done it with the .357 magnum, the 9m.m. using +P+ and the .40 S&W.
Jim
I already have a reliable G-17, G-21 and G-23 among others. The Glocks are reliable. I just wouldn't leave it around cocked with one in the chamber. In the revolver it's already there just pick it up and shoot. That Corbon Powerball is another hot load that is designed for the finicky eaters. The 9mm just seems to be a small bullet. I prefer the .45 ACP over it as I can hit more with it.
Those light revolvers made out of special metals like Scandium? from S & W.
They are ultra light and no fun to shoot. Just a last resort type of gun. LCR Ruger is 13.5 ounces and the .357 counter part LCR is 17 ounces. I bet these light carry guns really bite back. But when your adrenalin is going you probably won't notice the gun exploding in your hand.
rich642z
April 15, 2011, 12:54 AM
The Ruger LCRs do not recoil that much because,of the Houge Tamer Grips. In the light .38s or the .357s,if you have not shot these,you do not really know until,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, YOU TRY THEM. Like I have. In my previous postings on the LCRS,I have said about getting a little tighter grip hold on these revolvers. If you do not,that is your problem,not the revolvers mentioned.
golden
April 15, 2011, 01:09 AM
STINGER,
You may not notice how uncomfortable the gun is when firing in a life and death situation, but will you hit the target?
I stay within my recoil tolerance lever for that reason. I have a .41 magnum that when fired with the full power 210 grain ammo is really accurate. It surprises me how well it will shoot.
However, the recoil means that recovery time is long and shots few. Fine for hunting, not self defense or law enforcement. When loaded with WINCHESTER Silver Tips, it is still accurate and I can shoot double action, but I am faster with a .357 and much faster with a 9m.m.
I find it hard to believe that recoil will not be a factor in how you shoot when your life depends on it. You may not notice it, but it is still there.
The j-frames are not bad to shoot with the right ammo and grips. I use rubber grips, usually the boot grip type with the light recoiling NYCLAD ammo.
Jim
You may not notice how uncomfortable the gun is when firing in a life and death situation, but will you hit the target?
I stay within my recoil tolerance lever for that reason. I have a .41 magnum that when fired with the full power 210 grain ammo is really accurate. It surprises me how well it will shoot.
However, the recoil means that recovery time is long and shots few. Fine for hunting, not self defense or law enforcement. When loaded with WINCHESTER Silver Tips, it is still accurate and I can shoot double action, but I am faster with a .357 and much faster with a 9m.m.
I find it hard to believe that recoil will not be a factor in how you shoot when your life depends on it. You may not notice it, but it is still there.
The j-frames are not bad to shoot with the right ammo and grips. I use rubber grips, usually the boot grip type with the light recoiling NYCLAD ammo.
Jim
stinger 327
April 15, 2011, 03:00 AM
The Ruger LCRs do not recoil that much because,of the Houge Tamer Grips. In the light .38s or the .357s,if you have not shot these,you do not really know until,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, YOU TRY THEM. Like I have. In my previous postings on the LCRS,I have said about getting a little tighter grip hold on these revolvers. If you do not,that is your problem,not the revolvers mentioned.
I have seen their 3 different models of the .38 + P LCR, the basic LCR with open sight, the LCR with tritanium sights (night sights that glow in dark?) and the most expensive LCR with the Crimson Trace Laser grips.
This Light carry revolver does have a nice DA trigger pull.
I have seen their 3 different models of the .38 + P LCR, the basic LCR with open sight, the LCR with tritanium sights (night sights that glow in dark?) and the most expensive LCR with the Crimson Trace Laser grips.
This Light carry revolver does have a nice DA trigger pull.
stinger 327
April 15, 2011, 03:03 AM
STINGER,
You may not notice how uncomfortable the gun is when firing in a life and death situation, but will you hit the target?
I stay within my recoil tolerance lever for that reason. I have a .41 magnum that when fired with the full power 210 grain ammo is really accurate. It surprises me how well it will shoot.
However, the recoil means that recovery time is long and shots few. Fine for hunting, not self defense or law enforcement. When loaded with WINCHESTER Silver Tips, it is still accurate and I can shoot double action, but I am faster with a .357 and much faster with a 9m.m.
I find it hard to believe that recoil will not be a factor in how you shoot when your life depends on it. You may not notice it, but it is still there.
The j-frames are not bad to shoot with the right ammo and grips. I use rubber grips, usually the boot grip type with the light recoiling NYCLAD ammo.
Jim
Depends on the movement, lighting and distance if target is hit.
You may not notice how uncomfortable the gun is when firing in a life and death situation, but will you hit the target?
I stay within my recoil tolerance lever for that reason. I have a .41 magnum that when fired with the full power 210 grain ammo is really accurate. It surprises me how well it will shoot.
However, the recoil means that recovery time is long and shots few. Fine for hunting, not self defense or law enforcement. When loaded with WINCHESTER Silver Tips, it is still accurate and I can shoot double action, but I am faster with a .357 and much faster with a 9m.m.
I find it hard to believe that recoil will not be a factor in how you shoot when your life depends on it. You may not notice it, but it is still there.
The j-frames are not bad to shoot with the right ammo and grips. I use rubber grips, usually the boot grip type with the light recoiling NYCLAD ammo.
Jim
Depends on the movement, lighting and distance if target is hit.
Ben86
April 15, 2011, 07:32 AM
The Glocks are reliable. I just wouldn't leave it around cocked with one in the chamber. In the revolver it's already there just pick it up and shoot.
If you are comfortable with a loaded revolver why not a loaded Glock or other semi-auto?
Maybe there is a reason why different militaries of different countries don't use a revolver?
Yes, because it would put them in a severe tactical disadvantage comparatively.
If you are comfortable with a loaded revolver why not a loaded Glock or other semi-auto?
Maybe there is a reason why different militaries of different countries don't use a revolver?
Yes, because it would put them in a severe tactical disadvantage comparatively.
stinger 327
April 15, 2011, 10:53 AM
If you are comfortable with a loaded revolver why not a loaded Glock or other semi-auto?
Yes, because it would put them in a severe tactical disadvantage comparatively.
Very comfortable with loaded revolver already loaded and ready to go. Just push trigger. Not comfortable about leaving Glock loaded with one in chamber all of the time.
Yes, because it would put them in a severe tactical disadvantage comparatively.
Very comfortable with loaded revolver already loaded and ready to go. Just push trigger. Not comfortable about leaving Glock loaded with one in chamber all of the time.
brnmuenchow
April 15, 2011, 11:26 AM
Both handle just fine, there isn't enough difference between the two ballisticaly in my opinion to be that different in damaging tissue. Bullet selection is a major factor though, I carry the Winchester Supreme "PDX1" loads in both .9x19mm & .38Spl. The .38Spl.(on Ave.) is not quite as powerful as the .9mm, but pretty close.
Patriotme
April 15, 2011, 04:55 PM
There's a Marshall & Sannow chart on stopping power on www.handloads.com
That pretty much settles the winner for me.
That pretty much settles the winner for me.
ArchAngelCD
April 16, 2011, 10:26 PM
AK103K,
I said a "normal SD situation and you quote me something that involves Law Enforcement.
I'm not going to argue with anyone here. If you want to carry 27 or even 57 rounds do so but don't tell me I'm wrong for carrying a revolver.
You also have no idea what kind of training I have or do so don't tell me about shooting tiny little groups on paper, you have no idea who I am.
I'm done here so post if you want, I want see it!
I said a "normal SD situation and you quote me something that involves Law Enforcement.
I'm not going to argue with anyone here. If you want to carry 27 or even 57 rounds do so but don't tell me I'm wrong for carrying a revolver.
You also have no idea what kind of training I have or do so don't tell me about shooting tiny little groups on paper, you have no idea who I am.
I'm done here so post if you want, I want see it!
AK103K
April 16, 2011, 10:54 PM
I know you wont see this, :rolleyes: but just what is a "normal" SD situation?
The point of the article was, even with training, and 14 rounds in the gun, nothing is a guarantee. What happened there, could easily be one of your "normal" SD situations.
Was there anything in the last part of my last post that was "off", or did it just touch a nerve?
The point of the article was, even with training, and 14 rounds in the gun, nothing is a guarantee. What happened there, could easily be one of your "normal" SD situations.
Was there anything in the last part of my last post that was "off", or did it just touch a nerve?
stinger 327
April 18, 2011, 10:38 AM
STINGER,
You may not notice how uncomfortable the gun is when firing in a life and death situation, but will you hit the target?
I stay within my recoil tolerance lever for that reason. I have a .41 magnum that when fired with the full power 210 grain ammo is really accurate. It surprises me how well it will shoot.
However, the recoil means that recovery time is long and shots few. Fine for hunting, not self defense or law enforcement. When loaded with WINCHESTER Silver Tips, it is still accurate and I can shoot double action, but I am faster with a .357 and much faster with a 9m.m.
I find it hard to believe that recoil will not be a factor in how you shoot when your life depends on it. You may not notice it, but it is still there.
The j-frames are not bad to shoot with the right ammo and grips. I use rubber grips, usually the boot grip type with the light recoiling NYCLAD ammo.
Jim
I had a chance to shoot someone elses LCR .38 on the range with a laser and the recoil was fine.
You may not notice how uncomfortable the gun is when firing in a life and death situation, but will you hit the target?
I stay within my recoil tolerance lever for that reason. I have a .41 magnum that when fired with the full power 210 grain ammo is really accurate. It surprises me how well it will shoot.
However, the recoil means that recovery time is long and shots few. Fine for hunting, not self defense or law enforcement. When loaded with WINCHESTER Silver Tips, it is still accurate and I can shoot double action, but I am faster with a .357 and much faster with a 9m.m.
I find it hard to believe that recoil will not be a factor in how you shoot when your life depends on it. You may not notice it, but it is still there.
The j-frames are not bad to shoot with the right ammo and grips. I use rubber grips, usually the boot grip type with the light recoiling NYCLAD ammo.
Jim
I had a chance to shoot someone elses LCR .38 on the range with a laser and the recoil was fine.
stinger 327
April 18, 2011, 10:39 AM
AK103K,
I said a "normal SD situation and you quote me something that involves Law Enforcement.
I'm not going to argue with anyone here. If you want to carry 27 or even 57 rounds do so but don't tell me I'm wrong for carrying a revolver.
You also have no idea what kind of training I have or do so don't tell me about shooting tiny little groups on paper, you have no idea who I am.
I'm done here so post if you want, I want see it!
Train train train, practice, practice and practice. At least then you have a better chance regardless if revolver or auto.
I said a "normal SD situation and you quote me something that involves Law Enforcement.
I'm not going to argue with anyone here. If you want to carry 27 or even 57 rounds do so but don't tell me I'm wrong for carrying a revolver.
You also have no idea what kind of training I have or do so don't tell me about shooting tiny little groups on paper, you have no idea who I am.
I'm done here so post if you want, I want see it!
Train train train, practice, practice and practice. At least then you have a better chance regardless if revolver or auto.
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