Gabe's Gun Shop Williamsburg, IA Raided Update


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mlcarter815
April 11, 2011, 03:31 PM
Hello, I happened to stumble upon this forum when doing a google search and saw the locked thread about Gabe's Gun Shop in Williamsburg, IA being raided. Here is a news story that was published on 4/8/2011 on a local news website.

"WILLIAMSBURG – Unanswered questions remain in the IRS seizure of more than $460,000 in cash from a former Williamsburg chief of police’s business, Gabe’s Gun Shop, and the bank account for the shop.

A public notice was recently filed about a Feb. 24 seizure, which alleges Mike Gene Gabriel attempted to conceal his gun business deposits. Gabriel hasn’t been criminally charged and there is no information available regarding a criminal investigation.

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/IRS-Seizes-Thousands-Of-Dollars-From-Former-Williamsburg-Police-Chief-119481119.html

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Rembrandt
April 11, 2011, 06:24 PM
I admit to being a bit curious when I saw the first post......shortly after "Gabes Guns" were at the Cedar Rapids gun show, didn't appear to be anything wrong. I know they do a huge volume of sales. They usually have 20-25 tables at the shows. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if they bring $300K or more in guns to every show.

mlcarter815
April 11, 2011, 06:28 PM
They are still open for business while the investigation takes place. I'd expect to see some pretty good deals in an effort to recoup some money.

Gottahaveone
April 12, 2011, 06:46 PM
The IRS also seized $345,000 from 2728 P Avenue in Williamsburg......

So why is it illegal to have $345k in cash at home? Imprudent perhaps, but this entire mentality of "If we catch you with a lot of cash we get to assume you were going to do something bad with it and therefor take it from you" needs to stop. Let a cop stop you for speeding and find $15k. They seize it with no probable cause and no proof of wrong doing. Did they repeal the 4th Amendment and forget to tell people?

alsaqr
April 12, 2011, 07:29 PM
So why is it illegal to have $345k in cash at home? Imprudent perhaps, but this entire mentality of "If we catch you with a lot of cash we get to assume you were going to do something bad with it and therefor take it from you" needs to stop. Let a cop stop you for speeding and find $15k. They seize it with no probable cause and no proof of wrong doing. Did they repeal the 4th Amendment and forget to tell people?

+1 We can thank the failed "war on drugs" for this one.

HOOfan_1
April 12, 2011, 07:42 PM
Wow, I've worked as a retail manager before and we were required by company policy to go to the bank and make a deposit if there was ever 10,000 in the store. I always figured it was a theft measure, but this seems to indicate it had other motives. I wonder how they could avoid accusations of structuring there.

mlcarter815
April 12, 2011, 08:23 PM
The way I understand it is they were depositing too small of amounts to the bank each day for the bank to realize that they were exceeding $10,000 deposited, and so the bank wasn't having them fill out the IRS forms. Whether this was on purpose or not, I don't know.

Apparently the IRS feels they have the right to freeze all money assets and secure all of the cash on the property and in the owner's wallet while they are being investigated.

GRIZ22
April 12, 2011, 08:41 PM
The way I understand it is they were depositing too small of amounts to the bank each day for the bank to realize that they were exceeding $10,000 deposited, and so the bank wasn't having them fill out the IRS forms.

The depositor doesn't fill out the forms the bank does. The bank is also required to fill the forms out if the transaction is less than $10,000 if they feel it is "suspicious". If IRS is charging this guy with structuring he didn't do it just once or twice.

One-Time
April 12, 2011, 10:24 PM
isnt it great how the IRS can take money, make you forfeit it and never show you committing a crime...aint the war on drugs great

JohnBT
April 13, 2011, 07:57 AM
"Apparently the IRS feels they have the right to freeze all money assets and secure all of the cash on the property and in the owner's wallet while they are being investigated."

Feels they have? They absolutely do have the right if you're playing games with deposits to avoid the law. Then they finish the investigation to see what you're up to. They catch money launderers and tax cheats too.

Hk Dan
April 13, 2011, 09:00 AM
This is tragic. Gabes is an icon at gunshows, does a brisk business with fair if not low pricing. Sue and Gabe are good folks, and I sure hope this gets ironed out without too much pain for them.

vaherder
April 13, 2011, 09:43 AM
Most businesses on the up and up do not have approx $345K at home in cash. It appears that someone was trying to launder their cash income from sales. Many businesses do not report all their cash sales but with gun sales you have physical inventory that is tracked etc. its not like my painter who says gee if you make the check out to me the bill only comes to $4200 instead of $4700 if you make it out to ABC Painting LLP.

If you make a deposit over $10K in cash the bank fills out a CTR and Fincen keeps a record of these. Now I have numerous CTRs for cars I have sold and the buyer wanted to give me cash. And yeah I did a search on the buyer etc.
I have rejected a few buyers over the years because I suspected money laundering etc. I hate cash and prefer a certified check since it is the only bank instrument you can not stop payment on. You can stop payment on cashier's check or bank mo. Fincen has keeps very interesting databases on folks.

If your business provides a service its a lot harder for the tax man to track your income. In sales there is a hard inventory. Boats, cars, wines, lamb, etc. Its a PITA for me to sell someone a lamb. Fed and state regs etc make it difficult for me to hide the sale to an individual. Now I could claim it died of natural causes or a predator got it but I believe karma will catch up with me and the farm needs to make a profit or the IRS will ask me to get out of the business since they will consider it a hobby.

Interesting in the age of debit cards etc that he had that much in cash sales. IRS will also look into if he is paying his share of his employees SS etc and will make sure he is depositing his employess witholdings. Tax evasion gets you a wrist slap from the IRS but stealing employee withholding and your share of their SS can get you hard time. IRS prefers getting their money.

PedalBiker
April 13, 2011, 10:02 AM
While $300k in cash at home doesn't look good, a whole lot of things I've seen lately don't look good for the other side either.

Why is it that when a retiree gets scammed out of their life savings the money suddenly is "untraceable" even though the money moved through the banking system (ie they wrote a check, not cash - there should be a paper trail)?

We've had a fair number of ponzi schemes in our area lately and we get the same story every time, even though the amounts are over $10k and were not cash. The victims never seem to get any help, though the perp has gone to jail in every case. There seems to be plenty of evidence to get a conviction, but the money is always magically "gone", lost without a trace.

It sure seems the "know your customer" information is almost never used to reunite a rightful owner with stolen funds, yet cash, securities and bank accounts can be frozen at a moment's notice if the IRS thinks some of their money is involved.

It just makes you wonder.

ElToro
April 14, 2011, 10:44 PM
ive been in banking about 17 years. as said its the structuring that gets people. just deposit alll that money do the ctr and keep legit records and your fine. I had clients that routinely deposited WELL over 10k in cash almost daily, gas stations, convenience stores fast food joints etc. the poor sap manager has to sit there and wait till the teller counts it and fills out the CTR every day. no big whoop. its people who dont have that kind of cash on a regular basis, ie sell a car that get freaked out and try to structure the deposits. no bueno. just be honest and fill out the CTR and nothing will happen. hoever i agree the fed.gov has no fraking business knowing about it and its a result of teh failed WOD. but its life

Wheeler44
April 14, 2011, 11:18 PM
ElToro...Your sig line speaks perfectly to your informative response.

W44

Far East Sig
April 14, 2011, 11:46 PM
Don't for get with an IRS investigation, they decide what is the truth and you have to prove them wrong. With them you are gulity until proven innocent.

Lord Teapot
April 15, 2011, 04:17 AM
+1 We can thank the failed "war on drugs" for this one.
i think you mean the war on rights. on topic, hopefully any items stolen by the government will be returned, although probably after a lengthy court battle involving many exhibits picturing unrelated gunshot wounds.

earlthegoat2
April 15, 2011, 06:18 AM
Im thinking the original thread got locked because other than this happening to a gun shop it is kind of off topic as it pertains to teh IRS and tax evasion and not the BATFE and straw sales or something similar.

merlinfire
April 15, 2011, 09:27 AM
Wait, I'm failing to see what's going on.

It is because he wasn't properly reporting his sales figures?

It can't be just because he has lots of cash on hand, right?

And just exactly what difference does it make how often and in what amounts he deposits money to his bank? Could not I take out $8000 on Monday, and deposit $2000 a day on Tuesday through Friday every week? Suspicious? Maybe? But last time I checked, not a crime

dcarch
April 15, 2011, 11:08 AM
I know Mr. Gabriel pretty well, and this shocked me. Not only is Mike a great guy, he is a former LEO with over 20 years experience. He was the police chief of Williamsburg, for crying out loud! I am very suspicious of this. They have a great standing in the community, and the gunshop has always had an excellent reputation. Has the IRS even named a "crime" that they are guilty of? If they haven't, they need to catch some major flak over this. If you guys can't tell, I'm pretty ticked off. :fire:

JohnBT
April 16, 2011, 11:31 PM
"And just exactly what difference does it make how often and in what amounts he deposits money to his bank?"

Exactly? Are you asking the name of the banking law we have been discussing that requires the bank to report transactions of (about) $10k? The amount varies from time to time I'm told.

Here's one IRS FAQ for small businesses.

www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148821,00.html

And...

"The Bank Secrecy Act of 1970 (or BSA, or otherwise known as the Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting Act) requires U.S.A. financial institutions to assist U.S. government agencies to detect and prevent money laundering. Specifically, the act requires financial institutions to keep records of cash purchases of negotiable instruments, file reports of cash transactions exceeding $10,000 (daily aggregate amount), and to report suspicious activity that might signify money laundering, tax evasion, or other criminal activities. It was passed by the Congress of the United States in 1970. The BSA is sometimes referred to as an "anti-money laundering" law ("AML") or jointly as “BSA/AML”. Several anti-money laundering acts, including provisions in title III of the USA PATRIOT Act, have been enacted up to the present to amend the BSA. (See 31 USC 5311-5330 and 31 CFR Chapter X (formerly 31 CFR Part 103)."

www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/bsa


"which alleges Mike Gene Gabriel attempted to conceal his gun business deposits"

dcarch
April 17, 2011, 05:27 PM
The patriot act. Of course.

gym
April 17, 2011, 05:37 PM
Guys the fact that he had that much money on hand means nothing, My ex partner has over 350 ATM machines in FL alone. When I loaded for him, "filled them up" we would do 70 machines in oned day "just 2 of us" each doing 30-40 machines, and each machine could have from $3000.00 to $20,000 in 20's in them. Scary but perfectlly legal, we would also have to clear out all of them in 3 days before a hurricane warning came in. I would carry a quarter million at any given time. Since I don't do it and havent for 5 years I can say it now. But there are many businesses like strip clubs, hotels, big chains in relly bad neighboorhoods, that are like this, the ATM's could be anyware, so if there was a convention in the marriott, that machine might need to be filled every day with 20-30 grand, just 1 machine, and it's the same when you see the outdoor events like the south beach show that just passed for the restaurant business, we would have outdoor machines with one of the guys around it all day. Your talking about serious money needed to sometimes come home at night for one reason or the other. He may have needed that money to buy if a great deal came up, that is how you make the most money I am sure we all agree, by having the cash on hand when the other guy doesn't. That truckload of rifles is going to get sold to someone.
I didn't read the article but the only time you run into trouble is if you cannot show where the money came from.Drug dealers used to just let them take it and mark it as a loss. I remember one guy i heard about, used to buy and sell houses just to cover his illegal dealings, so if he got stopped at an airport with a bag of money he could show he sold or was re investing in another piece of real estate, if he made or lost on the house didn't really matter, it just gave him an excuse as to why he had the money on him. The feds want to see proof that you got that money legally. Otherwise they keep it, if you show them proof, they return it, it's amazing how many people they never hear from when they take a suitcase with 300+ thousand in a bag from the air traveler before 9-11.

Red Cent
April 17, 2011, 07:40 PM
Every bank can and and most do establish a list of customers that are exempt from filling out the CTR daily. The fact that a bank requires a particular business to fill one out every day is terrible; however, if it is the banks policy so be it but is not the law. You simply create a file showing consistent deposits over a period of time and when the suits arrive make sure the files are available.

Any bank can file a CTR on any amount of money anytime. Suspicion. Safe harbor was created years ago for whistle blowing banks.

All insured banks must set up a checks and balance system that shows and effort to prevent a number of deposits in one day totaling more than $10,001.00 (or whatever amount their policy states) from a depositor. ANY cash transaction can be documented for internal scrutiny. Can't imagine the system Bank of America uses. The business in question may have been caught attempting to make multiple deposits. That would require a CTR.

If a customer deposits, lets say, 10,001.00, the bank employee may fill out a CTR without knowledge of the customer. If there is a question to be answered and the employee asks the customer and the customer refuses, the employee must refuse the transaction.

Be aware that many bank's policy may require filing a CTR on any amount. Again, the customer need not sign.

Me thinks something is more amiss than cash.

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