NAA The Pug .22 Mag vs. NAA .22 Mag mini revolver


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stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 02:23 PM
Both of these mouse guns are from NAA. The Pug has a 1 inch short thick barrel and larger rubber grip.

The other mini revolver has a 1 5/8 inch barrel with smaller wooden grips.

Are these two guns going to be very similiar in shooting the .22 Mag or is the 1 5/8 going to have an edge over the Pug in .22 Mag?:confused:

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robhof
April 13, 2011, 02:28 PM
The difference between 1 5/8" and 1" is not enough to make any difference, the 22mag is most effective in rifle barrels, but are considerably hotter than 22Lr in even the short pistol barrel.

stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 02:34 PM
The difference between 1 5/8" and 1" is not enough to make any difference, the 22mag is most effective in rifle barrels, but are considerably hotter than 22Lr in even the short pistol barrel.
So the Pug is mostly for cosmetics. Looks good but isn't going to be any better than the other standard .22 1 5/8 barrelMag Mini-Revolver NAA sells that costs less.

wnycollector
April 13, 2011, 02:34 PM
I think bullet velocity will be similar between them. I have the 1 1/8" 22 mag with boot grips in my pocket right now. The factory boot grip makes a huge difference in shootability at zero sacrifice to concealment.

Onward Allusion
April 13, 2011, 02:58 PM
Go here...

http://www.naaminis.com/naaveloc.html

There is a slight velocity difference and in those types of mouse guns, it could mean life or death.

stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 03:16 PM
I think bullet velocity will be similar between them. I have the 1 1/8" 22 mag with boot grips in my pocket right now. The factory boot grip makes a huge difference in shootability at zero sacrifice to concealment.
By boot gun you mean the mini revolver with the small wooden grips which makes gun much more concealable and easier to carry.

stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 03:22 PM
Go here...

http://www.naaminis.com/naaveloc.html

There is a slight velocity difference and in those types of mouse guns, it could mean life or death.
Interesting if I read the charts correctly on the NAA Mini-Master in .22 LR The Remington Yellow Jacket has the highest velocity faster than the CCI Stinger? Actually it is the fastest bullet of them all on this list?
No mention of the fastest .22 LR Aguila 30 grain.

batjka
April 13, 2011, 03:28 PM
Boot grips are of different profile than the standard wood grips and are a little longer, making it easier to hold on to and aim.

As far as the difference between the Pug and the .22 mag versions, the Pug has a different way of securing the cylinder pin, better grips, and a nice rear site.

I think cylinder pin retaining mechanism is more secure, making it a safer gun. Still, an old Freedom Arms.22 mini has an even more secure way of retaining the cylinder pin. NAA should have copied the FA's design in this particular instance.

stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 04:33 PM
Boot grips are of different profile than the standard wood grips and are a little longer, making it easier to hold on to and aim.

As far as the difference between the Pug and the .22 mag versions, the Pug has a different way of securing the cylinder pin, better grips, and a nice rear site.

I think cylinder pin retaining mechanism is more secure, making it a safer gun. Still, an old Freedom Arms.22 mini has an even more secure way of retaining the cylinder pin. NAA should have copied the FA's design in this particular instance.

The pin in my NAA Mini Mag is secure. It isn't like these newer models that twist on but I have shot it so many times and the pin stays in.
I did have a problem with the Mini-Master with both .22LR and .22 Mag cylinders where with the first shot of the .22 Mag the pin started to come out. So NAA replaced the pin on it with a newer one.
I have heard of Freedom Arms but they went out of business some time ago even when I did get the mini-revolver sometime in the early 1990's.
Every demostration I have seen the Pug always misses so I figure I might was well just keep my .22 mini rev. Mag that has a smaller grip and cost alot less than the PUG. The Pug just looks a bit more intimidating. But if the Pug doesn't perform any better then a purchase of this item is just for cosmetics and to have another toy that isn't any better of what I already have. Then I say forget it.

MCgunner
April 13, 2011, 06:50 PM
I have the magnum Black Widow and love the little fart. It's amazingly accurate with CCI (very ammo picky) and shoots to POA. It shoots about 3.5" -4" groups at 25 yards off sandbags. That ain't shabby for a tiny little 10 ounce revolver! It's got REAL Novak sights which really helps over my other two 1 5/8" NAAs. The BW has a 2" barrel.

savit260
April 13, 2011, 09:26 PM
I have heard of Freedom Arms but they went out of business some time ago

HUH? The F/A mini is out of production, but the company is alive and well making some of the finest single actions around.

http://www.freedomarms.com/

VA27
April 13, 2011, 10:44 PM
The Pug has usable sights. I just dumped my 1 5/8" mag with an eye toward a Pug.

stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 11:19 PM
I have the magnum Black Widow and love the little fart. It's amazingly accurate with CCI (very ammo picky) and shoots to POA. It shoots about 3.5" -4" groups at 25 yards off sandbags. That ain't shabby for a tiny little 10 ounce revolver! It's got REAL Novak sights which really helps over my other two 1 5/8" NAAs. The BW has a 2" barrel.
I took the grip for the Black Widow cause I liked the look of that grip better than what came with the Mini Master 4 inch.

stinger 327
April 13, 2011, 11:20 PM
HUH? The F/A mini is out of production, but the company is alive and well making some of the finest single actions around.

http://www.freedomarms.com/
I see no more mini revolvers from FA.

JFrame
April 14, 2011, 01:08 AM
Cool -- a NAA thread! :cool:

I purchased a Black Widow with .22 mag/.22LR cylinders a couple of months ago -- love the little guy! :)

I took possession of an Earl with 3" barrel and .22 mag/.22LR cylinders early this week, but my local range is closed for maintenance. :( I'm itchin' to try this feller out. It handles nicely, and the post front sight seems clear and visible -- but the proof will be in the shooting. The designer (the late "Earl" -- the gun's namesake) did a pretty amazing job replicating an 1860 Remington cap & ball revolver around the basic NAA frame and shrinking the proportions down by a half or more.


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stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 12:53 PM
Cool -- a NAA thread! :cool:

I purchased a Black Widow with .22 mag/.22LR cylinders a couple of months ago -- love the little guy! :)

I took possession of an Earl with 3" barrel and .22 mag/.22LR cylinders early this week, but my local range is closed for maintenance. :( I'm itchin' to try this feller out. It handles nicely, and the post front sight seems clear and visible -- but the proof will be in the shooting. The designer (the late "Earl" -- the gun's namesake) did a pretty amazing job replicating an 1860 Remington cap & ball revolver around the basic NAA frame and shrinking the proportions down by a half or more.


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Isn't this modeled after the old revolver? It should be accurate with 3 inch barrel?

JFrame
April 14, 2011, 02:12 PM
Isn't this modeled after the old revolver? It should be accurate with 3 inch barrel?


Yup -- as noted, it's a pretty amazing miniature "reproduction" of an 1860 Remington cap and ball revolver. The "loading lever" is actually the brace that holds the cylinder pin in place.

I sure hope it's accurate! :) I'll let y'all know when my local shooting range opens up again, after their maintenance. The Earl also comes in a 4" barrel configuration -- but I just thought the 3" version looked better and more balanced...


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stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 02:50 PM
Yup -- as noted, it's a pretty amazing miniature "reproduction" of an 1860 Remington cap and ball revolver. The "loading lever" is actually the brace that holds the cylinder pin in place.

I sure hope it's accurate! :) I'll let y'all know when my local shooting range opens up again, after their maintenance. The Earl also comes in a 4" barrel configuration -- but I just thought the 3" version looked better and more balanced...


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I thought I saw an ad for it in 4 inch in the NAA website. Keep us posted on how it performs.

rcmodel
April 14, 2011, 03:55 PM
I would say buy neither one!

Wait for the top-break NAA Ranger to become more available!!!
The $500 price will surely come down to more realistic street prices once the pipeline fills up.

I think I even want one of those now!!
Just too cool!!

http://www.northamericanarms.com/breaktop_ranger.html

rc

MCgunner
April 14, 2011, 04:10 PM
At the price, I'm not really hot for the top break. They do have the cool factor down, though. If they'd do a Black Widow version with the Novak sights, well, perhaps even at 500 bucks.....:D

stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 04:15 PM
I would say buy neither one!

Wait for the top-break NAA Ranger to become more available!!!
The $500 price will surely come down to more realistic street prices once the pipeline fills up.

I think I even want one of those now!!
Just too cool!!

http://www.northamericanarms.com/breaktop_ranger.html

rc
I realize that's a limited edition but $500.00? You can get a real gun for that price.

stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 04:16 PM
At the price, I'm not really hot for the top break. They do have the cool factor down, though. If they'd do a Black Widow version with the Novak sights, well, perhaps even at 500 bucks.....:D
I would still go for the 4 inch or a Mini Master. The standard sights on the Mini Master at least on mine are only adjustable for elevation.

MCgunner
April 14, 2011, 04:48 PM
You can't drift the mini master's sights for windage? The Black Widow's sights, front and back, are dovetailed. They can be drifted with a hammer and punch.

The Mini Master was 360 bucks from the gun shop I was going to order one from. I really kinda wanted a 2" gun for pockets anyway and found a used Black Widow with folding grip installed (love those folding grips) for 260, so I got that. I've been impressed with it's accuracy, but I'm sure 2 more inches of sight radius couldn't hurt. :D Eventually I may stumble on a mini master, but figured I could (and do) carry the Black Widow when dress requires. That's not very often, but the added accuracy and the power of the .22 mag make it a bit more viable than my other two minis, 1 7/8" guns with standard "sights". They can be shot well enough, but not AS well as the Black Widow with it's better sight picture.

stinger 327
April 14, 2011, 04:56 PM
You can't drift the mini master's sights for windage? The Black Widow's sights, front and back, are dovetailed. They can be drifted with a hammer and punch.

The Mini Master was 360 bucks from the gun shop I was going to order one from. I really kinda wanted a 2" gun for pockets anyway and found a used Black Widow with folding grip installed (love those folding grips) for 260, so I got that. I've been impressed with it's accuracy, but I'm sure 2 more inches of sight radius couldn't hurt. :D Eventually I may stumble on a mini master, but figured I could (and do) carry the Black Widow when dress requires. That's not very often, but the added accuracy and the power of the .22 mag make it a bit more viable than my other two minis, 1 7/8" guns with standard "sights". They can be shot well enough, but not AS well as the Black Widow with it's better sight picture.
Mini Masters costs that much now? Well in anycase as far as sights go if you ever do have to use these minis you most likely will not end up using the sights but point shooting. These minis are great to carry/conceal. I't s a up close type weapon so barrel length won't make much difference neither but will make conceal/carry more difficult for it's intended purpose.

JFrame
April 14, 2011, 05:01 PM
I would say buy neither one!

Wait for the top-break NAA Ranger to become more available!!!
The $500 price will surely come down to more realistic street prices once the pipeline fills up.

I think I even want one of those now!!
Just too cool!!

http://www.northamericanarms.com/breaktop_ranger.html

rc


Hey RC -- I hate to disillusion you, but NAA decided not to go into full production on the Ranger. :( They made the determination that they just couldn't meet the production at a price point that made business sense to them. In fact, from what I understand, their first run of approximately 500 Rangers were actually selling at below cost. They just wanted to generate some buzz, and thought they could get the actual price down through refinements and improvements in production methods.

I was totally bummed when I heard that -- I definitely had a spot picked out in my NAA stable for that breaktop!

Here's the link to the sad news in case anyone is interested:

http://www.naaminis.com/soapbox/sandy2011_03mar.html


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rcmodel
April 14, 2011, 05:08 PM
Well shucks!

I just read a test report and all about it being in full production soon in the May/June 2011 Handgunner mag yesterday.

Guess they jumped the gun on that story, so to speak!

rc

MCgunner
April 14, 2011, 05:18 PM
Perhaps it sold better than NAA had predicted and they changed their mind and decided to go to full production?????? I don't know, just know until the put the novaks on it, do a mini master or black widow treatment to it, for 500 bucks, i'll hold off. I have a little collection of NAAs at the moment, my original .22 1 5/8 I bought 25 years ago, my Super Companion with two cylinders I bought last year, and my most recently bought Black Widow. Somewhere along the line I'm going to have to add a Mini Master and I sure would like it to be one that is of top break design. Only one thing, won't be a magnum/LR cylinder model I don't guess. I would like to have a LR/Magnum mini master.

MCgunner
April 14, 2011, 05:20 PM
Hey RC -- I hate to disillusion you, but NAA decided not to go into full production on the Ranger. They made the determination that they just couldn't meet the production at a price point that made business sense to them.

Mmm, just went back a page and read this. Bummer. BUT, for those that tossed the 500 out for one, it's probably going to be worth more'n gold in a few years considering the limited production. If you can find one now, you'd better jump!

JFrame
April 14, 2011, 05:23 PM
Well shucks!

I just read a test report and all about it being in full production soon in the May/June 2011 Handgunner mag yesterday.

Guess they jumped the gun on that story, so to speak!

rc


I think those magazines go "to bed" anywhere from 3 to 6 months before publication time.

I tell ya -- I was really lookin' forward to a double-fisted "retro set" with the Earl and the Ranger...


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JFrame
April 14, 2011, 05:24 PM
Mmm, just went back a page and read this. Bummer. BUT, for those that tossed the 500 out for one, it's probably going to be worth more'n gold in a few years considering the limited production. If you can find one now, you'd better jump!


I hear there are some people that bought TWO Rangers -- greedy bastidges!!! :cuss:

stinger 327
April 15, 2011, 12:13 AM
Perhaps it sold better than NAA had predicted and they changed their mind and decided to go to full production?????? I don't know, just know until the put the novaks on it, do a mini master or black widow treatment to it, for 500 bucks, i'll hold off. I have a little collection of NAAs at the moment, my original .22 1 5/8 I bought 25 years ago, my Super Companion with two cylinders I bought last year, and my most recently bought Black Widow. Somewhere along the line I'm going to have to add a Mini Master and I sure would like it to be one that is of top break design. Only one thing, won't be a magnum/LR cylinder model I don't guess. I would like to have a LR/Magnum mini master.
For such a tiny gun these Mini-revolvers are pretty nasty and do damage as I have shot through both ends of those barracades? work horses usually they put them on the street and they may have a light on top of them but the .22 LR penetrated through both sides of the stand.

batjka
April 18, 2011, 02:09 PM
Has anyone seen the latest episode of "Swamp People". One of the guys featured was pulled into the water by a big alligator. While struggling, the guy reached into his pocket, took out a mini revolver, and now there's one less alligator swimming around. The episode is called "Wild shooting". Highly recommend for viewing.

JFrame
April 18, 2011, 08:25 PM
Has anyone seen the latest episode of "Swamp People". One of the guys featured was pulled into the water by a big alligator. While struggling, the guy reached into his pocket, took out a mini revolver, and now there's one less alligator swimming around. The episode is called "Wild shooting". Highly recommend for viewing.


Thanks for the heads up -- I set my DVR to record it. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good3.gif


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stinger 327
April 18, 2011, 09:27 PM
Has anyone seen the latest episode of "Swamp People". One of the guys featured was pulled into the water by a big alligator. While struggling, the guy reached into his pocket, took out a mini revolver, and now there's one less alligator swimming around. The episode is called "Wild shooting". Highly recommend for viewing.
How about wild boar?

JFrame
April 19, 2011, 02:27 PM
I got a chance to try out my new 3" Earl today.

The good news is the gun is pleasingly accurate at the 5.5 to 7.5 yard distances that I was firing (indoor range). I fired a few cylinders of .22 LR, and 100 rounds of .22 mag (50/50 CCI Maxi-Mags and Winchester Dynapoints). Windage was pretty much spot on with all rounds used, and I just need to get used to that skinny little post sight to get a sense for the elevation.

The plow-handle grip was okay, but I have a feeling I'm going to keep those for presentation purposes only, and get the Black Widow-contoured rosewood grips for actual shooting.

Now the bad news -- I was getting light primer strikes on almost every cylinder. Out of the approximately 115 rounds fired, I think I was only able to get through a complete cylinder without at least one misfire about 5 times. The rest of the time, I got at least one misfire, and most often two misfires.

I notice that the trigger literally has a "2-stage" pull. When you squeeze, there is a false "let-off," and the hammer advances a fraction. A continuation of the squeeze allows the hammer to fall all the way. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the cause of the light primer strikes -- but it sure can't help! It also doesn't do much for accuracy to face this situation repeatedly.

So -- I guess it's off to the NAA gunsmith for the Earl... :(

I'm glad I have the Black Widow backing it up in the meantime...


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murf
April 20, 2011, 12:27 AM
b4 you send it back, try this: remove the cylinder and put the base pin back in. now, dry fire the pistol and see if you are still getting the two-stage pull. if you are, dry fire it about 2 or 300 times to get rid of any burrs in the action. keep the action well lubed with gun oil while you are doing this. if the hitch in it's giddyup doesn't disappear, it's something else and may have to go back to naa. if you don't get the two-stage pull, check the cylinder for burrs (use a good magnifying glass). i found burrs on most of the rim recesses on the back of the cylinder. i stoned the burrs off and cured my problem. fwiw

murf

stinger 327
April 20, 2011, 12:29 AM
I got a chance to try out my new 3" Earl today.

The good news is the gun is pleasingly accurate at the 5.5 to 7.5 yard distances that I was firing (indoor range). I fired a few cylinders of .22 LR, and 100 rounds of .22 mag (50/50 CCI Maxi-Mags and Winchester Dynapoints). Windage was pretty much spot on with all rounds used, and I just need to get used to that skinny little post sight to get a sense for the elevation.

The plow-handle grip was okay, but I have a feeling I'm going to keep those for presentation purposes only, and get the Black Widow-contoured rosewood grips for actual shooting.

Now the bad news -- I was getting light primer strikes on almost every cylinder. Out of the approximately 115 rounds fired, I think I was only able to get through a complete cylinder without at least one misfire about 5 times. The rest of the time, I got at least one misfire, and most often two misfires.

I notice that the trigger literally has a "2-stage" pull. When you squeeze, there is a false "let-off," and the hammer advances a fraction. A continuation of the squeeze allows the hammer to fall all the way. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the cause of the light primer strikes -- but it sure can't help! It also doesn't do much for accuracy to face this situation repeatedly.

So -- I guess it's off to the NAA gunsmith for the Earl... :(

I'm glad I have the Black Widow backing it up in the meantime...


.
Perhaps it could be the batch of ammo you are using? I have never seen any caliber jam as much as the rimless .22LR.
I have a Mini Master in .22LR / .22 Mag 2 cylinders. The recoil of the .22 Mag moves the laser adjustment and the locking cylinder pin that NAA just replaced.
On the .22LR the pin does not come out. I will have to get to an indoor range to adjust the laserlyte sight on this Mini-Master and sight it in the .22LR.
These guns are no way near accurate yet.

JFrame
April 20, 2011, 09:53 AM
b4 you send it back, try this: remove the cylinder and put the base pin back in. now, dry fire the pistol and see if you are still getting the two-stage pull. if you are, dry fire it about 2 or 300 times to get rid of any burrs in the action. keep the action well lubed with gun oil while you are doing this. if the hitch in it's giddyup doesn't disappear, it's something else and may have to go back to naa. if you don't get the two-stage pull, check the cylinder for burrs (use a good magnifying glass). i found burrs on most of the rim recesses on the back of the cylinder. i stoned the burrs off and cured my problem. fwiw

murf


Thanks for the tips, murf!

JFrame
April 20, 2011, 10:16 AM
Perhaps it could be the batch of ammo you are using? I have never seen any caliber jam as much as the rimless .22LR.




Mmm...I'm pretty sure this is not the case. For one thing, it was happening with both LR and WMR ammo. Also, I was using Maxi-Mag and Dynapoint ammo from the same exact lots that worked fine in my Black Widow.


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stinger 327
April 20, 2011, 04:54 PM
Mmm...I'm pretty sure this is not the case. For one thing, it was happening with both LR and WMR ammo. Also, I was using Maxi-Mag and Dynapoint ammo from the same exact lots that worked fine in my Black Widow.


.
Ok great at least we know this. Just a process of elimination. I'll just stick with my Browning Buckmark for fast accurate shooting and S & W Model 17 revolver for fun .22 LR shooting.
These NAA have been very inaccurate but then again they are intended as very close up front point blank range.

JFrame
April 20, 2011, 05:22 PM
Ok great at least we know this. Just a process of elimination. I'll just stick with my Browning Buckmark for fast accurate shooting and S & W Model 17 revolver for fun .22 LR shooting.


Yup -- I don't think I'd stack any NAA mini-revolver against a Buckmark or Model 17 in a target competition. :D

But then, their main asset is that they can be tucked into places where a bigger gun just won't go.

I have seen some pretty amazing shooting of NAA revolvers on Youtube though. There's that one video of a guy (I can't remember if it's Hickok45 or not) who pops balloons at 100 feet with his Black Widow.

I think part of the appeal of the NAA's is having guns that tiny, and trying to milk every last ounce of accuracy and potential out of them. :)


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stinger 327
April 20, 2011, 05:37 PM
Yup -- I don't think I'd stack any NAA mini-revolver against a Buckmark or Model 17 in a target competition. :D

But then, their main asset is that they can be tucked into places where a bigger gun just won't go.

I have seen some pretty amazing shooting of NAA revolvers on Youtube though. There's that one video of a guy (I can't remember if it's Hickok45 or not) who pops balloons at 100 feet with his Black Widow.

I think part of the appeal of the NAA's is having guns that tiny, and trying to milk every last ounce of accuracy and potential out of them. :)


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You got that right great size and great quality too.

shiftyer1
April 20, 2011, 07:14 PM
I just got the 22 lr today, do the boot grips make much difference?

JFrame
April 20, 2011, 07:46 PM
I just got the 22 lr today, do the boot grips make much difference?


Tough call...With the .22LR mini, I'm inclined to stick with the standard bird's head grips (mine are the black rubber, which provide a bit of extra "tacky" surface). I'm thinking with the .22LR mini, you're looking for maximum concealability versus trying to squeeze out a little bit extra stability and accuracy.

Just IMHO...


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batjka
April 21, 2011, 06:36 AM
I don't think these guns are inaccurate, I think they are just tough to shoot accurately due to grip size, short sight radius and such. I believe that youtube video showed the guy shooting balloons at 100 yards, not feet. So it is possible, just takes a lot of practice.

JFrame
April 21, 2011, 08:39 AM
I don't think these guns are inaccurate, I think they are just tough to shoot accurately due to grip size, short sight radius and such. I believe that youtube video showed the guy shooting balloons at 100 yards, not feet. So it is possible, just takes a lot of practice.



It was 100 feet:

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=oFyQEISE__Y&feature=related

Hey -- 33 yards is nothing to sneeze at.


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batjka
April 21, 2011, 09:44 AM
There's also a video of a 50 yard shot:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&client=mv-google&hl=en&v=ZSj8M_YMQpU

JFrame
April 21, 2011, 11:10 AM
There's also a video of a 50 yard shot:



I'm old enough to remember a Guns & Ammo article that came out in the 60's or early 70's called "100-Yard Pocket Pistols." For a lark, the author decided to test the long-range "shootability" of four pocket guns -- a S&W 36 with 1 7/8" barrel, a PPK Walther .380, a Sterling Arms .25, and a Freedom Arms .22 LR mini-revolver.

He tested at 25, 50, and 100 yards. To no surprise, he was able to get effective groups at all distances with the S&W and Walther. Even the .25 acquitted itself okay. The FA was keyholing like crazy, and by the time he reached the 100-yard test, he admitted that many shots were going into the "Twilight Zone." But he kept blasting till he had a "group" which, IIRC, was about two feet wide. That left him with the impression that a person down-range was not safe from a pocket pistol -- even the FA mini -- at 100 yards.

Clearly, a more robust NAA mini with a longer barrel and better sights would have done way better! :)


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GEM
April 21, 2011, 11:33 AM
They are what they are. For grins, I shot the old TX DPS chl test with a 1 5/8 NAA and got about a 230 ish. You do see keyholed rounds at a distance.

I also shot it with my NAA 22S - which I bought for grins - about a 120 - you can't hit much with that little guy but so cute.

I don't see a use for the bigger versions but support buying guns for fun.

They are a bug.

About magazine lag time - the American Rifleman awards the Remington Versa shotgun - a gun of year award. Then there is a big ad in the same issue from Remington - DONT SHOOT THE VERSA - it has a problem. OOPS.

batjka
April 21, 2011, 11:52 AM
GEM,

I remember seeing a youtube video of someone running a course with an NAA mini. Was it your by any chance?

FA standard mini had a 1" barrel, even shorter than the current NAAs, which have a 1-1/8" barrels. They did, however, offer longer barrel lengths. I believe there was a 1-1/2 and 2" models.

I don't see how shooting a mini revolver with a 2" barrel would be different from shooting a J-frame with the same barrel in the same caliber. Some of the NAA line do have a usable sight, so the accuracy should improve.

Gordon_Freeman
April 21, 2011, 12:54 PM
Has anyone tried the new laser attachment for the NAA mini revolvers? I just can't hit a target with these guns.

JFrame
April 21, 2011, 12:56 PM
I don't see how shooting a mini revolver with a 2" barrel would be different from shooting a J-frame with the same barrel in the same caliber. Some of the NAA line do have a usable sight, so the accuracy should improve.

batjka -- if you're addressing that statement to me, I certainly do think that a Black Widow with either the Novak or Millett sights has the potential to match the accuracy of a J-frame snub (assuming, as you say, the same caliber). The BW also has a more usable grip than some of the other minis. Shooting without a rest, the advantage will still favor the heavier J-frames (heck -- even my 9.9 ounce 337PD is about 30 percent heavier than my BW!) -- but off of a rest, the BW can be surprisingly accurate.

The sight options degrade significantly with the smaller fixed-sight minis -- but as GEM said, they are what they are.


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JFrame
April 21, 2011, 12:58 PM
Has anyone tried the new laser attachment for the NAA mini revolvers? I just can't hit a target with these guns.


No -- but it may wind up on my Christmas "wish list." :)


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shiftyer1
April 21, 2011, 03:06 PM
I just fired mine today, it shoots a little low but after 6 shots I got it sighted in for center of milk jug from 15 feet of so. The factory grips actually aren't to bad. I think with some practice it'll be alot of fun.

stinger 327
April 21, 2011, 03:11 PM
Has anyone tried the new laser attachment for the NAA mini revolvers? I just can't hit a target with these guns.
I have the Laserlyte on my .22/.22 Mag Mini Master. Still in the process of adjustment and have to find a indoor range but as far as using the .22 Mag, I'll stick with th .22 LR because the recoil of the .22 mag is causing the laser sight to become loose as well as the new locking pin NAA just installed.
Maybe in time the .22LR recoil will also make the laser sight loose I don't know yet.

stinger 327
April 21, 2011, 03:14 PM
Tough call...With the .22LR mini, I'm inclined to stick with the standard bird's head grips (mine are the black rubber, which provide a bit of extra "tacky" surface). I'm thinking with the .22LR mini, you're looking for maximum concealability versus trying to squeeze out a little bit extra stability and accuracy.

Just IMHO...


.
I agree with the standard rosewood grips you get the best concealability which is what these guns are for up front and point blank

MCgunner
April 21, 2011, 04:09 PM
I prefer the folding holster grip for mine for several reasons. Now, to deploy, if you practice, it can be quite fast. I can deploy mine IN my pocket if I have it stuck muzzle down in my Blackhawk No 4 pocket holster that I carry my P11 Kel Tec in. It allows for a full grip of the gun and gives much better point shooting.

As to accuracy with the sights, my two standard 1 7/8 ounce guns will shoot accurate enough at a full 25 yards, but the sights are rough to acquire and slow and the range isn't going to be 25 yards in any rate. I CAN and have shot rabbit at 20 yards and a snake's head from 10 ft with the little 1 7/8" .22LR, though. For that I had time to use the sights and I didn't happen to have a more suitable weapon on me at the time. Actually, since the little .22 is an always gun, it's taken lots of critters like possum and coon around the place. :D I'm quite confident with it IF I have light and can see the friggin' sights on that thing.

The BW I carry every Sunday as my church gun so as to be totally unnoticable in a suit pocket is quite able to shoot 3.5" 5 shot groups to POA at 25 yards off a rest. That's almost as good as my M85SSUL Taurus ultralight and my Radom P64 and every bit as good as my Kel Tec P11 9x19 which is quite accurate, too. Anything that will hold 4" at 25 off a rest is a good self defense accurate gun IMHO. After all, holding them up to each other, the sight radius of the BW isn't THAT much shorter than the little Taurus. But, what's really good about the BW for self defense is that the longer, flat, wide top of the barrel on the BW makes it easier than the smaller guns to point shoot from 3-7 yards. Other than having to cock the thing, which I do instincively, it's about as fast on target as a DA revolver, but you do have to practice that single action hammer cock. I started out over 40 years ago with SA guns, though, so it's sort of natural for me. Heck, I've drawn DA guns before to shoot in a hurry and cocked the friggin' hammer not really intending to, but I was on auto pilot. :rolleyes: Fortunately, I don't seem to try that with guns that don't have hammers, the auto pistols, anyway. :D

Anyway, I consider the BW as a viable defense gun just on my abillity to hit with it. No, I'd rather have my .38 or my 9x19 if I got in a gun fight, but I know I can put a shot where it counts FAST with the BW. That's why it's a primary gun for me on special occasions and my little .22 just rides as back up to whatever I'm carrying for a primary. Certainly ain't the power of the cartridge that gets it the vote, but that is considerably more than .22LR. I have not yet been able to get some of the new Hornady Critical Defense in .22 mag, yet, either, for testing, but CCI shoots to POA in my gun with the reported accuracy. The little fart seems to be quite picky about what it likes, though, and the Hornady 30 grain +V is maypop in the gun, so I want to test a couple of boxes of that new Hornady before switching to it, if I do. I think a well placed bullet is more important than advertizing hype, after all.

I've played with that little .22LR for 25 years now and fully know my capabillities with it. It's a good little back up, but the BW is MUCH easier to make hits with fast, either with the sights or point shooting, at least with me shooting them. All three of mine have the folding holster grips. I really like this addition. Even my BW sports the holster grip.

BTW, with MY mitts, the standard grip is all, but unusable. I recently had to buy a wedding ring...:D...and I had to special order it 'cause no one has a size 13 around here. I didn't realize I was THAT special. :rolleyes:

http://i54.tinypic.com/9pqmok.jpg

stinger 327
April 21, 2011, 04:20 PM
I prefer the folding holster grip for mine for several reasons. Now, to deploy, if you practice, it can be quite fast. I can deploy mine IN my pocket if I have it stuck muzzle down in my Blackhawk No 4 pocket holster that I carry my P11 Kel Tec in. It allows for a full grip of the gun and gives much better point shooting.

As to accuracy with the sights, my two standard 1 7/8 ounce guns will shoot accurate enough at a full 25 yards, but the sights are rough to acquire and slow and the range isn't going to be 25 yards in any rate. I CAN and have shot rabbit at 20 yards and a snake's head from 10 ft with the little 1 7/8" .22LR, though. For that I had time to use the sights and I didn't happen to have a more suitable weapon on me at the time. Actually, since the little .22 is an always gun, it's taken lots of critters like possum and coon around the place. :D I'm quite confident with it IF I have light and can see the friggin' sights on that thing.

The BW I carry every Sunday as my church gun so as to be totally unnoticable in a suit pocket is quite able to shoot 3.5" 5 shot groups to POA at 25 yards off a rest. That's almost as good as my M85SSUL Taurus ultralight and my Radom P64 and every bit as good as my Kel Tec P11 9x19 which is quite accurate, too. Anything that will hold 4" at 25 off a rest is a good self defense accurate gun IMHO. After all, holding them up to each other, the sight radius of the BW isn't THAT much shorter than the little Taurus. But, what's really good about the BW for self defense is that the longer, flat, wide top of the barrel on the BW makes it easier than the smaller guns to point shoot from 3-7 yards. Other than having to cock the thing, which I do instincively, it's about as fast on target as a DA revolver, but you do have to practice that single action hammer cock. I started out over 40 years ago with SA guns, though, so it's sort of natural for me. Heck, I've drawn DA guns before to shoot in a hurry and cocked the friggin' hammer not really intending to, but I was on auto pilot. :rolleyes: Fortunately, I don't seem to try that with guns that don't have hammers, the auto pistols, anyway. :D

Anyway, I consider the BW as a viable defense gun just on my abillity to hit with it. No, I'd rather have my .38 or my 9x19 if I got in a gun fight, but I know I can put a shot where it counts FAST with the BW. That's why it's a primary gun for me on special occasions and my little .22 just rides as back up to whatever I'm carrying for a primary. Certainly ain't the power of the cartridge that gets it the vote, but that is considerably more than .22LR. I have not yet been able to get some of the new Hornady Critical Defense in .22 mag, yet, either, for testing, but CCI shoots to POA in my gun with the reported accuracy. The little fart seems to be quite picky about what it likes, though, and the Hornady 30 grain +V is maypop in the gun, so I want to test a couple of boxes of that new Hornady before switching to it, if I do. I think a well placed bullet is more important than advertizing hype, after all.

I've played with that little .22LR for 25 years now and fully know my capabillities with it. It's a good little back up, but the BW is MUCH easier to make hits with fast, either with the sights or point shooting, at least with me shooting them. All three of mine have the folding holster grips. I really like this addition. Even my BW sports the holster grip.

http://i54.tinypic.com/9pqmok.jpg
I didn't know Hornady made Critical Defense in .22 Mag. Do they have it in .22LR?
If you use the mini revolver for its intended use for personal protection you probably won't use your sights anyway rather you will likely end up point shooting. Some of those fixed sights on the smaller .22LR and .22Mag are almost non existent.
That's one of the reasons I put a Laserlyte on the Mini Master as it does have a sight but it doesn't work well at all. I can only adjust for elevation and haven't had any luck with that and for windage I understand you have to use a tool to hit it.

MCgunner
April 21, 2011, 04:27 PM
You can use a punch to get windage on with the dovetailed Novaks like my BW (see pic) has. I just have to hold a weird sight picture with my super companion, but can hit with it. The .22 I filed down to hit POA with Federal Lightening, which seems to work best in the little gun.

Hornady just put the .22 mag critical defense on their site a couple months ago. No .22LR as yet. I was told by a LGS just today that it could be several more months before it hits the shelves. Check out Hornady's site, impressive hype there and a jello pick of it penetrating about to the same depth as their .380 CD ammo. IF it works in MY gun, I'll use it, but like I say, good hits and going bang every time are of most importance. And, at least in .22 mag, the critical defense is affordable. :rolleyes:

MCgunner
April 21, 2011, 04:30 PM
Here ya go....

http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense

JFrame
April 21, 2011, 04:31 PM
As to accuracy with the sights, my two standard 1 7/8 ounce guns will shoot accurate enough at a full 25 yards, but the sights are rough to acquire and slow and the range isn't going to be 25 yards in any rate. I CAN and have shot rabbit at 20 yards and a snake's head from 10 ft with the little 1 7/8" .22LR, though. For that I had time to use the sights and I didn't happen to have a more suitable weapon on me at the time. Actually, since the little .22 is an always gun, it's taken lots of critters like possum and coon around the place. :D I'm quite confident with it IF I have light and can see the friggin' sights on that thing.


MC -- you are simply awesome, my friend! :eek:

I can only apply myself to hope I can shoot HALF as well as you someday... :o

BTW -- I just want to acknowledge MCgunner as the reference source I relied on to make the decision to buy my own Black Widow... :)

As far as your ring size goes -- I might start calling you "Gulliver"... :D


.

stinger 327
April 21, 2011, 04:32 PM
You can use a punch to get windage on with the dovetailed Novaks like my BW (see pic) has. I just have to hold a weird sight picture with my super companion, but can hit with it. The .22 I filed down to hit POA with Federal Lightening, which seems to work best in the little gun.

Hornady just put the .22 mag critical defense on their site a couple months ago. No .22LR as yet. I was told by a LGS just today that it could be several more months before it hits the shelves. Check out Hornady's site, impressive hype there and a jello pick of it penetrating about to the same depth as their .380 CD ammo. IF it works in MY gun, I'll use it, but like I say, good hits and going bang every time are of most importance. And, at least in .22 mag, the critical defense is affordable. :rolleyes:
Ok I got this mixed up. I do have Hornady .22 MAG rated at 30 grains at 2,200 fps but they aren't Critical Defense kind.
For the .22 LR There is Aguila which is the hottest .22LR around rated at 1,750 fps.
I agree with you it has to go bang and with the .22 LR rimless caliber it doesn't always go bang which is why in revolver form is better because you just pull the trigger till a cartridge goes off. If that happens with the auto everything stops.

stinger 327
April 21, 2011, 04:42 PM
Here ya go....

http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense
These rounds are different than the .22 Mag rounds I have which are pointed and sharp. So now we have something new to play with.
I have CD in all the other calibers. .38, 9mm, .357, .40 and .45 ACP.

MCgunner
April 21, 2011, 04:47 PM
Ok I got this mixed up. I do have Hornady .22 MAG rated at 30 grains at 2,200 fps but they aren't Critical Defense kind.

Yeah, the stuff I tried is the Hornady +v 30 grain designed for varmint hunting with a rifle. The new CD ammo uses a 45 grain bullet. That 30 grain stuff wouldn't even hit paper at 25 when it did go bang, either, way off POA. If it misfired, happened every cylinder with at least one, it'd always bang on the next hammer fall, so the ammo just seems to have tough rims.

As to .22 not going bang, I change my ammo, especially in summer, every week. In a hot, sweaty pocket, the stuff will go dud on you after a month or so in my experience. I get always bangs in the little NAA by doing this, very low risk of a click when the trigger is pulled. But, yeah, rimfire is susceptible to moisture in a sweaty pocket. I just take these rounds that I've rotated out of the mini and fire 'em off at the range.

The magnum gun, I rotate the rounds out about every 3 months since I only carry it on Sundays and every now and then for a special occasion. I sorta trust it more, but haven't proven that it's more moisture resistant than the .22LR's heal seated bullets, yet. I suspect it is more resistant, but I wanna prove that before I believe it. :D Anyway, heck, I rotate out (or actually SHOOT) my centerfire carry ammo more often than that. :D

stinger 327
April 21, 2011, 04:53 PM
Yeah, the stuff I tried is the Hornady +v 30 grain designed for varmint hunting with a rifle. The new CD ammo uses a 45 grain bullet. That 30 grain stuff wouldn't even hit paper at 25 when it did go bang, either, way off POA. If it misfired, happened every cylinder with at least one, it'd always bang on the next hammer fall, so the ammo just seems to have tough rims.

As to .22 not going bang, I change my ammo, especially in summer, every week. In a hot, sweaty pocket, the stuff will go dud on you after a month or so in my experience. I get always bangs in the little NAA by doing this, very low risk of a click when the trigger is pulled. But, yeah, rimfire is susceptible to moisture in a sweaty pocket. I just take these rounds that I've rotated out of the mini and fire 'em off at the range.

The magnum gun, I rotate the rounds out about every 3 months since I only carry it on Sundays and every now and then for a special occasion. I sorta trust it more, but haven't proven that it's more moisture resistant than the .22LR's heal seated bullets, yet. I suspect it is more resistant, but I wanna prove that before I believe it. :D Anyway, heck, I rotate out (or actually SHOOT) my centerfire carry ammo more often than that. :D
What is the life of a .22 LR round? What is the best conditions it should be stored?
Which is the best brand or most dependable?

MCgunner
April 21, 2011, 05:01 PM
CCI is the most consistantly primed, but the little NAA and some of my other rimfires do fine with Federal. BUT, in my Ruger Mk 2 in particular, Federals will click occasionally. I think it's the width of the firing pin, more prone to missing the priming in an inconsistantly primed rim. I have an old Ramline Exactor (don't laugh :D) that is maypop with Federal and always goes bang with CCI.

All heal seated .22 ammo, that'd be short through LR, are susceptible to moisture, though. I've had CCI on the shelf for over 20 years that was fine, so long as it was stored in the AC. It's hot and humid down here in the summer and if stored out in the shop, it will eventually deteriorate after not too many years. But, a sweaty pocket is about the worst environment imagineable for heal seated bullets. After a month carried daily, I can assure you there will be misfires. Changing 'em out each week, they're fine.

shiftyer1
April 21, 2011, 05:27 PM
I wouldn't mind gettin the old style holster grip because it looks like it covers the barrel also, but I understand they're discontinued.

MCgunner
April 21, 2011, 06:16 PM
Yep, old style holster grips are gone, but the good thing is the new ones don't scar up the frame like the old ones did. Look at the pick of mine. It's been opened and closed for 25 years now.

Also, the new ones lock a little more securely and are less fragile, though my old one has never broken the catch.

stinger 327
April 21, 2011, 10:40 PM
CCI is the most consistantly primed, but the little NAA and some of my other rimfires do fine with Federal. BUT, in my Ruger Mk 2 in particular, Federals will click occasionally. I think it's the width of the firing pin, more prone to missing the priming in an inconsistantly primed rim. I have an old Ramline Exactor (don't laugh :D) that is maypop with Federal and always goes bang with CCI.

All heal seated .22 ammo, that'd be short through LR, are susceptible to moisture, though. I've had CCI on the shelf for over 20 years that was fine, so long as it was stored in the AC. It's hot and humid down here in the summer and if stored out in the shop, it will eventually deteriorate after not too many years. But, a sweaty pocket is about the worst environment imagineable for heal seated bullets. After a month carried daily, I can assure you there will be misfires. Changing 'em out each week, they're fine.

So heat is the enemy?
Just think leaving the .22 LR in the car on hot summer days?

It's too bad my S & W Mod. 617 can't shoot the CCI Stingers. After 10 shots it jams the cylinder. Otherwise I like CCI ammo and the casings are clean and shiny.
The Aguila ammo smells funny and smokes. The brass doesn't look as great as the CCI but there is a little more kick in the Aguila over the CCI Stinger.

shiftyer1
April 21, 2011, 10:52 PM
Stinger, I think most people shhot thru their .22 ammo before heat and humidy in the car will ruin it. I keep a 550 round box in the truck year round in central texas without a problem but it gets changed out 2 or 3 times a year at least just from plinking. Of course thats in the cardboard box and not in a wet sweaty pocket! It's not as humid here as on the coast either.

isc
April 21, 2011, 11:10 PM
I've never seen a mouse shoot any type of gun or seen anyone shoot any type of gun at a mouse. I use my NAA in a holster grip and wear it when jogging or while engaged in other strenuous activities in lightweight clothing. the pug can't be used with the holster grip.

Te holster grip for the .22 mag doesn't cover the barrel and allows lint and other junk to get in the barrel. The .22lr version covers the barrel.

MCgunner
April 22, 2011, 07:32 AM
There is no barrel coverage on the .22LR anymore, either. They've gone to the new design holster grips.

So heat is the enemy?
Just think leaving the .22 LR in the car on hot summer days?

It's the humidity, expecially when carried in a sweaty pocket. However, I don't leave .22s in my vehicles, either, ever since when I was a college kid, a box of Remington Thunderbolt glued itself together from the melted lubricant. .22LR is externally lubed, the lead ones, anyway. I'm not sure about lube on the copper plated stuff. Heat is NOT good for 'em, either, though, but mostly because of the external lubing. It gets HOT in south Texas in the summer, especially inside a car. And, on the coast at least, the humidity is normally well over 70 percent.

Hoppes Love Potion
April 22, 2011, 04:40 PM
I use the Black Widow for my everyday carry piece in Florida. It really works well as a compromise. Easily concealed even in flimsy shorts & shirt. Stainless steel handles the humidity well. I haven't done a lot of long-distance shooting, but with .22 LR I can hit quarter-sized targets all day long from 10 feet.

With the .22Mag cylinder, it's got quite a pop. Seems to do about 2x the damage as the same gun with the best LR ammo. Not the greatest SD round in the world but I think it can be quite effective.

stinger 327
April 22, 2011, 04:52 PM
I use the Black Widow for my everyday carry piece in Florida. It really works well as a compromise. Easily concealed even in flimsy shorts & shirt. Stainless steel handles the humidity well. I haven't done a lot of long-distance shooting, but with .22 LR I can hit quarter-sized targets all day long from 10 feet.

With the .22Mag cylinder, it's got quite a pop. Seems to do about 2x the damage as the same gun with the best LR ammo. Not the greatest SD round in the world but I think it can be quite effective.
At ten feet do you use the factory sights on the Black Widow or do you point shoot?
The .22 Mag is devistating except on the Mini Master I have the recoil of the .22 mag causes the pin to come out and this pin is newly installed by NAA which is a locking pin.
My other NAA .22 mag mini shoots only .22 Mag but I don't have a problem with the pin loosening up or coming out.

Hoppes Love Potion
April 23, 2011, 07:40 AM
I have 2 pellet traps in my garage. One has steel targets, the large ones a bit larger than a quarter and the small ones about the size of a nickel. With slow aimed fire using the sights, I often hit 5/5.

There's also a wooden trap backed with a thick layer of duct putty. On this I stick reactive paper targets and do my point shooting. Generally I shoot fast and make small corrections until I'm on the bull.

stinger 327
April 23, 2011, 10:44 AM
Yeah, the stuff I tried is the Hornady +v 30 grain designed for varmint hunting with a rifle. The new CD ammo uses a 45 grain bullet. That 30 grain stuff wouldn't even hit paper at 25 when it did go bang, either, way off POA. If it misfired, happened every cylinder with at least one, it'd always bang on the next hammer fall, so the ammo just seems to have tough rims.

As to .22 not going bang, I change my ammo, especially in summer, every week. In a hot, sweaty pocket, the stuff will go dud on you after a month or so in my experience. I get always bangs in the little NAA by doing this, very low risk of a click when the trigger is pulled. But, yeah, rimfire is susceptible to moisture in a sweaty pocket. I just take these rounds that I've rotated out of the mini and fire 'em off at the range.

The magnum gun, I rotate the rounds out about every 3 months since I only carry it on Sundays and every now and then for a special occasion. I sorta trust it more, but haven't proven that it's more moisture resistant than the .22LR's heal seated bullets, yet. I suspect it is more resistant, but I wanna prove that before I believe it. :D Anyway, heck, I rotate out (or actually SHOOT) my centerfire carry ammo more often than that. :D
CCI has the eqivaluent .22 MAG with pointed black tips, 2,200 fps but I don't know if that's any better. I heard the Hornady poly tips are better.

JFrame
April 23, 2011, 11:20 AM
I was finally able to get around to watching that episode on my DVR of "Swamp People" (the "Shooting Wild" episode) involving the NAA mini. Actually, I sort'a fast-forwarded to the specific moment.

The gun the gator-hunter uses looks to be a .22 magnum mini with a 1 1/8" barrel. He gets dragged into the water by a 50-pound gator, pulls out his mini, and pops it dead with one shot.

Unless these guys are absolutely crazy (and they seem to know their stuff), this one guy at least seems to have tremendous faith in the .22 mag mini.

His comment after the incident: "This little pistol I keep in my front pocket. It's gotten me out of a bunch of jams. A bunch of 'em."

http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good3.gif


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Hoppes Love Potion
April 23, 2011, 02:09 PM
Shot placement is everything. You have to nail the gator right behind the head. Looks like most of those swamp people use a regular old Ruger 10/22 rifle to make the shot.

JFrame
April 23, 2011, 02:17 PM
Shot placement is everything. You have to nail the gator right behind the head. Looks like most of those swamp people use a regular old Ruger 10/22 rifle to make the shot.


Nice to have a mini as a back-up in case one gets into a bit of involuntary alligator-wrestling... :D


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