Uberti Cattleman CMS?... CCW?


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This45Colt
April 14, 2011, 11:59 AM
Hey all, in regard to the fun topic "single action self defense" I was just recently made aware of a new single action from Uberti.

For those that don't know, it is in their El Patron line, so it is hand tuned, has better sights etc... However, it is cool because is was made for cowboy mounted shooting, therefore it has a 3.5 inch barrel and a lowered hammer...

So I got to thinking, both of these features make it even more ideal for a CCW gun... Unfortunately is it still stuck with the SAA's five rounds.... but if you don't have big bucks for a custom Robar or otherwise, this may be a cool option :cool:


Thoughts?

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sixguns4fighting
April 15, 2011, 12:07 AM
Five rounds of large caliber, heavy cast, man-killing bullets is nothing to sneer at.

Get in lots of range time and get good with it. You will be better armed than those using smaller caliber guns.

CraigC
April 15, 2011, 12:29 PM
That one ain't got no flies on it for the skilled sixgunner!

SaxonPig
April 15, 2011, 01:25 PM
"...these features make it even more ideal for a CCW gun..."

I don't see any SA revolver as IDEAL let alone MORE IDEAL (grammatically impossible, BTW) for SD.

CraigC
April 15, 2011, 02:29 PM
Ideal for someone who does 90% of their shooting with single actions. We've been around on this before, I'd MUCH rather use something I am intimately familiar with than something more politically correct. It's about what I am comfortable with carrying. :rolleyes:

Jeb21
April 15, 2011, 02:36 PM
Nice looking gun. I have the 4 3/4" El Patron in 45 Colt. It is a nice gun!

Old Fuff
April 15, 2011, 02:47 PM
Five rounds of large caliber, heavy cast, man-killing bullets is nothing to sneer at.

So long as matters are settled within 5 rounds this may or may not be true, but if it doesn't come out that way you may have a problem...

As much as I do like the old Colt's, or reproductions of it, it is far from my first choice for self defense.

Ed McGivern, Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton to name three well known "revolver men" did some fantastic shooting with single action revolvers, but carried or recommended double action models when it came to serious work. I choose to do the same, for the same reasons they did.

Vern Humphrey
April 16, 2011, 02:17 PM
As an amateur holster maker, I look at concealed weapons from a different slant.

First of all, the hardest part of the gun to conceal is the butt -- when you print, it's the butt of the gun sticking out. Second hardest part to conceal is the width of the gun, in this case the cylinder.

There are ways to deal with both problems -- but they involve carrying the cylinder above the waistband, which makes for a cramped draw -- especially if you're short-waisted.

If you must carry a .45 (and I am one who does) then the M1911 is the way to go.

SaxonPig
April 16, 2011, 02:53 PM
"It's about what I am comfortable with carrying."

I would not choose an inferior weapon to protect my life. You are free to do as you please. :cool:

SAA
April 16, 2011, 03:27 PM
There are ways to deal with both problems -- but they involve carrying the cylinder above the waistband, which makes for a cramped draw -

Cross draw pretty much solves both printing issues mentioned, as well as the cramped draw.

Vern Humphrey
April 16, 2011, 03:30 PM
Cross draw pretty much solves both printing issues mentioned, as well as the cramped draw.
But introduces problems of its own -- which is why so few people who carry daily choose cross draw.

NMGonzo
April 16, 2011, 04:09 PM
While in the army I was taught to cock the hammer on the 1911 since all hammers had to be down around base.

It actually took me a while to shoot double action on revolvers, since I was cocking the hammer at every shot.

What you practice with and how you practice is what makes you efficient; not theory.

ironhead7544
April 16, 2011, 04:14 PM
Uberti now has the "Old West Defense" revolver. Built on a smaller frame than the SSA with a round butt and in 38 Special.

dogngun
April 16, 2011, 04:25 PM
how to shoot it well and you really know how to handle it without stopping to think about it, you could do worse.
It's really up to you.

mark

SAA
April 16, 2011, 04:56 PM
Agreed, but I was only referring to the issue of printing. Besides, I look at it this way, printing is an hourly/daily concern to contend with, while the concerns cross draw raises are hopefully only dealt with once in a life time or less. I wear my medium frame DA IWB strong side twist draw for the very reason of reducing or nearly eliminating printing. Many flame me for it, and many of those guys carry small-of-the-back without realizing their hypocrisy.

This45Colt, what is a "CMS"?

NMGonzo
April 16, 2011, 05:58 PM
SAA ... that is how I carry my double stacks cz75.

Red Cent
April 16, 2011, 06:00 PM
Ruger Montado. 3.75" barrel. Carry six rounds safely. If you like the transfer bar. Inferior? Ha!! A 22 is inferior. A pistolero with a 45 Colt is dang dangerous. Hard to conceal but i would carry it before I would stick a J frame in my pocket. But then I have competed with single actions for about 12 years.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/redcent69/Handguns/RugerMontado.jpg

Saragosa
April 16, 2011, 06:09 PM
I don't know why anyone would argue with someone else's choice in a defensive firearm. Sometimes it boils down to what someone is comfortable with. Sometimes it boils down to what someone can afford. I saw that one guy shoot that one gun faster than anyone can shoot that other gun. That's all that counts.

Red Cent
April 16, 2011, 06:11 PM
Old Fuff. You forgot the best of 'em with a single action.:cool:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/redcent69/The_Original_Combat_Masters.jpg

Vern Humphrey
April 16, 2011, 06:12 PM
If no one was willing to discuss the disadvantages as well as the advantages, there would be no discussion at all.

SAA
April 16, 2011, 07:03 PM
Old Fuff. You forgot the best of 'em with a single action.

Yeah, but the op is about single action revolvers, not single action semi-automatics.;)

Red Cent
April 16, 2011, 07:10 PM
The SA revolver is generally bulky. Heavy. Difficult to conceal unless it is cool weather. Reloads are a wish.

For the proficient: Fast to get into action (draw). I would carry the revolver in the appendix position butt raked to the rear (natural for me). I do the old IPSC draw in cowboy. Draw up, meet weak hand, cock sixgun on the push forward picking up target in sights and firing. Combat stance applies. Shot recovery with hot loads a tad slower than semi. Fired from cocked position (no disadvantage to a practiced shooter) with super tuned trigger equals superb accuracy.
Wouldn't have a problem with some 45acp HydraShocks in the other cylinder.

Comes to mind an old 3 screw in 45 Colt would be a light SA to pack. Trade off for recoil.

My friend is a Colt lw Commander 45acp. I still would pack my Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt before I would carry my M60-10. If it is too hot, the semi rides shotgun.

Red Cent
April 16, 2011, 07:12 PM
That small framed young'un in the middle is a living legend with a single action revolver.


"For speed and accuracy I believe his hammer draw with his .45s is as fast as humanly possible at close range with single action guns."
Elmer Keith about the young'un.

SAA
April 16, 2011, 07:17 PM
In the picture, anyway, I see four semi-automatic pistols and one double action revolver.

BTW, his name was Thell Reed.

Red Cent
April 16, 2011, 07:29 PM
"was"?

SAA
April 16, 2011, 07:43 PM
You have me there. 'Is'?

Red Cent
April 16, 2011, 07:48 PM
I'm pretty sure he is still living. He was the gun guy on 3:10 to Yuma and he taught Jeff Bridges for True Grit.

SAA
April 16, 2011, 07:53 PM
Thanks.
For those who are interested, this article about him is rather relevant to this thread:
http://gunfightergulch.com/FastDraw/archives/346

And more:
http://www.thellreed.com/html/the_beginning.html

Old Fuff
April 16, 2011, 08:23 PM
That small framed young'un in the middle is a living legend with a single action revolver.

Yes he was, as his father started training him while he was srill a pre-teen boy.

But later when he got serious he turned to a 1911 Government Model. Single Actions were for fun. :uhoh:

JellyJar
April 16, 2011, 08:40 PM
Saxonpig

Perhaps ...MORE IDEALER... then? :)

sixguns4fighting
April 16, 2011, 11:29 PM
Old Fluff,

The .44-40 and .45 Long Colt are man-killing calibers. Thus the single action revolver is a far better weapon than the smaller caliber weapons that most people choose for CCW.

Old Fuff
April 17, 2011, 12:32 AM
The .44-40 and .45 Long Colt are man-killing calibers. Thus the single action revolver is a far better weapon than the smaller caliber weapons that most people choose for CCW.

I'm not exactly sure what this is in response to, but perhaps it might be my observations in post #29. If so, I would point out that the Colt 1911 Government Model pistol is chambered to use a .45-caliber cartridge.

Anyway, I am aware that the .44-40 and .45 Colt have a long-standing reputaion for getting the job done, but what really matters is were and what the bullet hits in the way of a vital organ, bullet diameter not withstanding.

But ammunition isn't the principal issue in this thread, the platform the ammunition is used in is.

For example, one of my 'pets" is a Taurus model 445, which is a 5-shot, double-action, 2-inch snubby, chambered in .44 Special. It is slightly larger then a S&W K-frame, but with a smaller handle/butt. For serious work I would carry it before using any SAA platform revolver. Incidentally, the same model was offered in .45 Colt.

My experience with "the old six-shooter," goes back to 1949, and I enjoy them as much as any other revolver. That said, my long experience has taught me that for defensive purposes we have come a long way since 1873.

SAA
April 17, 2011, 01:28 AM
Anyone.....what is "CMS"?

CraigC
April 17, 2011, 03:08 AM
I would not choose an inferior weapon to protect my life.
And I wouldn't choose a less familiar weapon that I was less proficient with, strictly because it was more socially acceptable to anonymous internet characters.

sixguns4fighting
April 17, 2011, 04:10 AM
Anyway, I am aware that the .44-40 and .45 Colt have a long-standing reputaion for getting the job done, but what really matters is were and what the bullet hits in the way of a vital organ, bullet diameter not withstanding.

Bullet diameter + bullet weight = the law of mass. The bigger, heavier bullets are going to hit hard.

My point is that a large caliber SA revolver is going to be a better weapon than a smaller caliber pistol.

Red Cent
April 17, 2011, 09:55 AM
It seems to me that we are ignoring CraigC's point of familiarity. A J framed 357 is not my cup of tea. I can shoot it well, but the conditions that would exist in a gunfight would not give me confidence.
It also occurs to me that if a situation would suddenly "explode" in front of you, would you sweep the garment away, subconsciuosly gain the stance, and come out with the proper grip, beginning to line up the sights? No, not if you are unfamiliar with the handgun or the movement, spell p-r-a-c-t-i-c-e.
The J framewould be somewhat unfamiliar to me; therefore,I would not choose the J frame. Trying not be theatrical, I would be totally comfortable with my cowboy rig. Might have to get some hotter rounds from some of you:cool:. Emulating Thell.
The subconscious is a strange part of us. Psychologists suggest that it takes an incessant 21 days of repetition to change it.
If you cannot accomplish the aforementioned real life scenrio, don't get a single action.

Old Fuff
April 17, 2011, 11:09 AM
My point is that a large caliber SA revolver is going to be a better weapon than a smaller caliber pistol.

And mine was that the use of large-bore cartridges (.41 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 ACP/Auto Rim, .45 Colt, etc.) is not limited to the Single Action Army platform.

I have known men, and still know a few, that still carry some version of the old six-shooter as a defensive weapon. But they all subscribe to the position they'll be able to end any confrontation within the space of 5 or 6 shots, and have both hands available if fast shooting is required. While in the past some have drawn their revolver, none have had to actually shoot it.

During my lifetime I have known a number of well known individuals who had actual experience when it came to defensive use of handguns. Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, Rex Applegate, Jeff Cooper come quickly to mind. I have known more that were also experienced, but not famous. They all had their own ideas about "what was best," and "how to go about it." None of them carried a single action revolver for anything but recreational purposes.

I agree that practice can overcome some (but not all) of the shortcomings the 1873 platform presents. However it offers no outstanding advantages, and an equal amount of practice with something better will not leave anyone at any serious disadvantage. If this wasn't so at least some of the "been there, done that" individuals mentioned above would have endorsed the SAA. It is noteworthy that they didn't.

CSA 357
April 17, 2011, 11:48 AM
i have shot single actions all my life the only draw back for me is slow reloads, the 45 colt will and can do the job

9MMare
April 17, 2011, 12:48 PM
Anyone.....what is "CMS"?

He may mean cowboy mounted shooting.

I am a member of CMSA, the Cowboy Mounted Shooting Assn.

CraigC
April 17, 2011, 01:06 PM
No, not if you are unfamiliar with the handgun or the movement, spell p-r-a-c-t-i-c-e.
Exactly! I spend untold hours and hours shooting single actions. I work from home, shoot on my own property and do so nearly every day. I garner from the posts of many that they view shooting a single action as a "relaxing" experience. In other words, not taken seriously. I take my shooting very seriously and am intent on becoming better with the platform, not just making noise. Draw-fire exercises, point-shooting, slip-hammering, one-handed, two-handed, weak-handed, unloading one-handed and every reload is done as quickly as possible. To be frank, I am not willing to spend this much time with anything else, other than the 1911. It would be stupid of me to carry a J-frame that I am not intimately familiar with, have no desire to be as proficient with, just because it is more socially acceptable. These guns have a very, very limited utility outside of concealed carry. Single actions can be used for anything and have FAR more utility. No sir, I'll take the sixgun that I am intimately famliar with, manipulate without thought, reload without looking at, can hit with well beyond the snubby's effective range and can actually stand to shoot hundreds of rounds in a session. There's a good reason why I don't own a single J-frame. I guarantee you that unless you're carrying speedloaders, the reload issue is not as clear-cut as some would have you believe.

It's the indian, not the arrow.

timothy75
April 17, 2011, 01:24 PM
Dont ubertis have that ugly hammer saftey making them safe to carry with 6 rounds?

Red Cent
April 17, 2011, 01:49 PM
What is the fastest draw and hit known to man? What firearm was used? (hope it was a single action:rolleyes:)

BTW, Thell Reed earned the moniker "Fastest Man Alive" while fast drawing and shooting LIVE ammo:what:

Old Fuff, I think we are saying the same thing with the individual bias; however, the OP is talking SA revolver. In of itself and in the right hands a SA can be devastatingly efficient.

This45Colt
April 17, 2011, 04:39 PM
Cowboy Mounted Shooting

SAA
April 17, 2011, 10:55 PM
Thanks!

Old Fuff
April 18, 2011, 01:42 AM
Old Fuff, I think we are saying the same thing with the individual bias; however, the OP is talking SA revolver. In of itself and in the right hands a SA can be devastatingly efficient.

It can also fall short if the user can't use both hands, or if the shooting goes past 5 or 6 rounds and a reload is required. If the OP (and others) want to handicap themselves in a life or death situation by using a less then best platform that's their business.

Face it! Fast as he was with a Single Action, Reed changed to a .45 Colt pistol when the chips were down.

At this point the Old Fuff is using up valuable bandwith, and so will retire. :neener: :D

sixguns4fighting
April 18, 2011, 06:35 AM
And mine was that the use of large-bore cartridges (.41 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 ACP/Auto Rim, .45 Colt, etc.) is not limited to the Single Action Army platform.


The 1911 pistol may be superior to the 1873 revolver (both being .45 caliber) as the 1911 pistol can be reloaded much faster. But the 1873 would be superior to the smaller caliber pistols that most people use for CCW.

CraigC
April 18, 2011, 10:47 AM
It can also fall short if the user can't use both hands...
That's why we practice with one hand. :rolleyes:


...or if the shooting goes past 5 or 6 rounds and a reload is required.
Do you really think that a J-frame snubby can be reloaded faster than a single action without the use of speedloaders? How many folks carrying a concealed weapon just slip a snubby in their pocket? Yet, there is no debate about that??? Do all you guys who carry DA's and autos carry speedloaders and extra magazines?


If the OP (and others) want to handicap themselves in a life or death situation by using a less then best platform that's their business.
It is certainly debatable but unfortunately, there are some among us who apparently place ZERO importance on proficiency and everything on equipment. Do you really think any of those "Combat Masters" would carry a firearm they were not the most proficient with?


Fast as he was with a Single Action, Reed changed to a .45 Colt pistol when the chips were down.
Face it, all those other guys in the picture were law enforcement. HUGE difference. Not sure what you mean by "switched". Single actions were Reed's "thing" since childhood and he continues to not only be infamous for his SA work but people who make movies actually pay him for it. But really, who cares???


Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, Rex Applegate, Jeff Cooper come quickly to mind.
Also law enforcement.


It occurs to me, every time we have this discussion, that we have a bunch of double action and auto shooters telling single action shooters what they can and can't do.

Trad Archer
April 18, 2011, 12:51 PM
I carry a Colt SAA 45 4 3/4" often. A sp101 in warmer weather. I feel a lot more accurate with the Colt. I honestly don't care what any of you think about this. I've been shooting Colts my whole life. I don't know squat about autos, and find myself cocking the hammer on the sp101 instinctively. Colts are what I know, Colts are what I shoot, Colts are what I trust.

Depending on your body type, and how you dress, a Colt SAA isn't as hard to conceal as many think. I often wear a sport coat and the gun IWB. My wife tells me she never sees the gun print unless I bend over to touch my toes. Therefore, I make it a point, when in public, not to bend over to touch my toes........

SAA
April 18, 2011, 12:54 PM
Do you really think that a J-frame snubby can be reloaded faster than a single action without the use of speedloaders?

I shoot a single action 95% of the time, and carry a DA. I can tell you without a doubt that a DA with swing out cylinder and star ejector is definitely faster to reload than a single action with a loading gate and single ejector rod.

Also, an "1873" does not necessarily a big bore make. The OP had nothing to do with caliber. That would be a separate discussion as any type of firearm can be found in various calibers. There are plenty of .32-20 and .38 Special Single Action Armies out there to prove it. Don't assume "SAA" or "1873" necessarily means ".45 Colt"!

CraigC
April 18, 2011, 01:37 PM
I can tell you without a doubt that a DA with swing out cylinder and star ejector is definitely faster to reload than a single action with a loading gate and single ejector rod.

And how long does it take you to reload a DA without speedloaders? How seriously do you take your reloads when shooting a SA?

The point being that obviously given equal skill level, the DA will be quicker to reload.....slightly. However, we are not talking about equal skill level. We're talking about carrying a SA because it's what we're most proficient with, versus anything else that we are not. If I was willing to spend as much time with DA's as I am with SA's, this would be a very different discussion.

These discussions will never come to any fair conclusion. You will always have polymer auto shooters saying that their guns are more "modern" than 1911's and hold more ammo. You'll have 1911 shooters saying their guns are more modern than DA revolvers and hold more ammo. You'll always have DA revolver shooters saying that SA's are antiquated, that their guns are vastly quicker to reload and to shoot. The difference is rarely as extreme as each gun's respective protagonists perceive it to be.

Do you guys really think an unskilled DA shooter can outperform a skilled SA shooter, strictly due to equipment?

If you can instinctively flick off the safety of a 1911, then you can thumb back the hammer of a SA just as easily and without thought. Again, one more time, it's the indian, not the arrow.

One-Time
April 18, 2011, 02:22 PM
I dont see how a SAA is in any way inferior to anything, the guns is but a tool, the skill and performance in the shooters hand.

if you are intimately familiar with one, there is no drawback save capacity, and thats a whole other debate...id rather have fewer rounds but 45, than more but 9mm

Jeb21
April 18, 2011, 05:22 PM
A double action revolver can be reloaded very quickly with a speed loader. Far faster than a single action revolver. As for which is better for defense, that depends on the shooter and his or her experience. For me a DA revolver is far more effective than a single action revolver.

Red Cent
April 19, 2011, 10:51 AM
Jeb, I agree. But........

Round up every person in the United States that carries a small frame revolver and I will bet you a chicken leg that 80% or more carry a loaded revolver only.

451 Detonics
April 19, 2011, 11:24 AM
If i was going to CCW a SA Army platform my choice would be clear cut, the Double Eagle from U.S. Firearms. I think I would choose the .44 Special chambering.

http://www.usfirearms.com/cat/double-eagle.asp

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/handguns/usfirearmsccw.jpg

MartinS
April 19, 2011, 11:25 AM
And of those that carry extra ammo how many are like me and don't even practice the shaky, sweaty, pleasedon'tkillme reload.

GRIZ22
April 19, 2011, 05:32 PM
I suppose those advocates of CCWing a SA revolver would choose a lever action as the best combat rifle. They most likely never carry a spare tire in their car because they never had a flat and don't have life jackets in their boat as its never sunk.

If you carry a SA revolver for SD when there are better things available I will give you two things:

1. Yes you are seriously armed
2. Yes you may be able to defend yourself if the fight stays within the parameters of your weapons system.

the guns is but a tool, the skill and performance in the shooters hand.

Yes the gun is but a tool. You need to better define it though. Its usefulness as a tool is because it is a weapon. Guns were not invented to punch holes in paper or shoot soda cans. After the first 5 shots, a SA revolver is about as efficient as using a 2# hammer instead of a power nailer to shingle a roof.

People like Thell Reed and others have proven how fast one can be with a SA. 99.99999% of us are no where near their level of expertise.

IMHO the majority of people who carry a SA revolver as a choice of SD firearm have very little concept of what a gunfight is all about and do so because it looks cool.

if you are intimately familiar with one, there is no drawback save capacity, and thats a whole other debate...id rather have fewer rounds but 45, than more but 9mm

Learning how to use a DA revolver is not an insurmountable task. There have been millions who have done so. I have never met anyone who has been in a gunfight wish he had a gun that held fewer rounds.

CraigC
April 19, 2011, 08:10 PM
I have to wonder if any of the naysayers spend as much time shooting their preferred weapon as I do with mine.

Because it looks cool??? Last I heard, 99.99% of carry weapons were carried concealed, so who is it exactly we're trying to impress???


IMHO the majority of people who carry a SA revolver as a choice of SD firearm have very little concept of what a gunfight is all about and do so because it looks cool.
IMHO, the majority of people who think it's a bad idea have a thimbleful of knowledge on the subject. All pure bias stemming from what they 'think' they know. Sad how this thread started out about a sixgun and turned into a peeing contest by those who would never buy one anyway.


All of which makes me really glad I don't let anonymous strangers on the internet make my choices. I suggest everyone else do the same.

GRIZ22
April 19, 2011, 09:59 PM
I have to wonder if any of the naysayers spend as much time shooting their preferred weapon as I do with mine.

What you do on the range and what you do in a fight may be two different things. I don't know how much time you spend on the range or how well you shoot and you don't know what other people do in this regard. That doesn't matter. There are many psychological and physical factors that make a SA revolver a poor choice as a SD gun when there are other things available. We're talking equipment not skill.


Because it looks cool??? Last I heard, 99.99% of carry weapons were carried concealed, so who is it exactly we're trying to impress???

You only have to impress yourself. I take it your friends don't know or have ever seen your CCW? No one has ever seen your CCW.


IMHO, the majority of people who think it's a bad idea have a thimbleful of knowledge on the subject. All pure bias stemming from what they 'think' they know. Sad how this thread started out about a sixgun and turned into a peeing contest by those who would never buy one anyway.

I can guarantee many of the negative repsonses are from people who have much more than a thimbleful of knowledge on the subject. It seems your personal bias is from what you may think you know. I have never seen any genuine expert (in the past 100 years anyway) advocate a SA revolver is the best SD handgun over anything else. Reed, Cooper, Ayoob, Skelton, Cirillo or anyone else I have ever heard of say that. Please find me one who does so.

The negative comments were generated not because of the type of gun but because of its intended use. I believe it is a nice revolver. Just not an ideal CCW.

By the way, I do own several SA revolvers that I shoot well but would never be my choice for a combat handgun if there were something else available. You apparently have ignored my comment about being armed with a weapon that will work as long as everything stays within the limitations of the weapon.

All of which makes me really glad I don't let anonymous strangers on the internet make my choices. I suggest everyone else do the same.

At least we closed on a point of agreement.

CraigC
April 20, 2011, 01:28 AM
What you do on the range and what you do in a fight may be two different things.
I'm well aware of this. Which is actually part of my point. Which is why I want to be carrying the firearm I am MOST familiar and proficient with. Because I want my weapon handling to be as thoughtless and instinctive as possible. Not gonna spend 90% of my shooting time shooting and carrying single actions, which as I said before is nearly every day, and then carry something completely different in town. Only a FOOL would do so.


You only have to impress yourself. I take it your friends don't know or have ever seen your CCW? No one has ever seen your CCW.
It is irrelevant. Sorry buddy but you can't arbitrarily dismiss this one because you think I'm just doing it to show off.


It seems your personal bias is from what you may think you know.
Personal bias does not even enter into the equation.


I have never seen any genuine expert (in the past 100 years anyway) advocate a SA revolver is the best SD handgun over anything else. Reed, Cooper, Ayoob, Skelton, Cirillo or anyone else I have ever heard of say that. Please find me one who does so.
You won't find anyone calling anything the "best" but you will find self defense courses designed around the single action revolver at Gunsite and Thunder Ranch. Their sentiments mirror my own, that if you are most familiar with an SA, then it IS a viable self defense weapon.


You apparently have ignored my comment about being armed with a weapon that will work as long as everything stays within the limitations of the weapon.
What limitations are these? Reloading speed? We've covered that. Cocking the hammer? We've covered that. I never carry a reload anyway, so what am I really giving up when I strap on a sixgun vs. an Officer's length 1911?

savit260
April 20, 2011, 09:19 AM
Unless I'm a LEO or in the military, I'm not expecting to get into a "gun fight". I'd bet most people who stick a J frame in their pocket aren't either.

I'm sure an LEO isn't going to expect to be deal with aicraft dropping Daisy Cutters either.(not a whole lot less likely than me getting into and extended gun battle) His multiple reloads aren't going to serve him well in that case.

Point is you prepare for what you believe to be reasonable for your own situation.

A SAA or Blackhawk on your hip is no less prepared than a J frame in your pocket with no reload. I'd be willing to bet the average person with a J frame in their pocket isn't carrying reloads either.

savit260
April 20, 2011, 09:25 AM
I suppose those advocates of CCWing a SA revolver would choose a lever action as the best combat rifle. They most likely never carry a spare tire in their car because they never had a flat

Hey Grizz. Do you carry a pair of full size spares in your car? You really should replace tires in pairs if you are to be propperly prepared.

Or do you go with a "space saver"? ;)

What's most appropriate for your situation?

You wouldn't run the Daytona 500 on a space saver, and you wouldn't have a 53' Kenworth tractor trailer follow you down the road with multiple tires and parts to go to the grocery store.
Or do you? ;)

CraigC
April 20, 2011, 10:50 AM
I suppose those advocates of CCWing a SA revolver would choose a lever action as the best combat rifle. They most likely never carry a spare tire in their car because they never had a flat and don't have life jackets in their boat as its never sunk.
If you're not proficient with a proper battle rifle, then hell yes. The tool is worthless if you don't have the skill to operate it effectively. I didn't buy my first AR until six months ago and I'm still not completely comfortable with it. Conversely, I can run a levergun without thinking.

It still boggles the mind that some actually put more importance on the equipment than the skill to use it effectively.

Old Fuff
April 20, 2011, 11:40 AM
It still boggles the mind that some actually put more importance on the equipment than the skill to use it effectively.

No, it’s that some put more importance on working to attain the highest level of skill, while using the best equipment for whatever the proposed purpose is.

For the purpose of picking what kind of handgun to use as a current-day concealed weapon it should be clear that something introduced in 1873 might not be the best choice. Practice would probably make one more competent with one, but an equal amount of practice with a better platform would likely pay off with the ability to do things that the old six-shooter isn’t capable of.

Fortunately those that chose the single-action as a “weapon of choice” are probably protected by the likelihood that they will never have to fire a shot in anger. Those who because of profession, location or lifestyle are more likely to face a higher threat level usually pick something else to stake their lives on.

CraigC
April 20, 2011, 12:16 PM
Those who because of profession, location or lifestyle are more likely to face a higher threat level usually pick something else to stake their lives on.
That much is a given. Nowhere here have you seen me try to talk anybody into anything. Merely explaining my choices and why.

I think our biggest issue here is a lack of perspective. Apparently those who live in or near the city, who only use an indoor 25yd range a couple times a month and who only shoot handguns more socially acceptable for self defense think everybody else lives the same way. It's painfully obvious when you see so many folks recommend Glocks for trail guns. I don't live in a major metropolis, or anywhere near one.. Been there, done that, carried a Glock when I did, ain't going back. Like I said before, and again I'm only explaining my own choices, I live in the middle of nowhere. I live alone on 100acres, at least until June. I raise cattle, chickens and apparently barn cats. Shooting is almost all I ever do. I have a legitimate need to carry and use a firearm nearly every day. I also shoot nearly every day. I don't carry them just in case a bad guy jumps me, I USE THEM almost daily. Whether it's coons in my feed stores, snakes in the yard on my way to get the mail, rats running out from under the tractor, a fox trotting by on the edge of the woods, coyotes in the pasture, etc., etc., ad nauseum. So it should be rather obvious that I do not have the same needs in a sidearm as your average city dweller. Because I don't. I need a revolver due to its vastly superior versatility and I choose the single action because I like them better, always have. I've got a nice selection of older S&W's that will simply never get used to the extent that my SA's do. In daily life, your average "self defense pistol" has about as much utility as chrome wheels on a tractor. They are far too limited in their practical application. I simply do not care for them and thus, I own few and shoot fewer. I shoot single actions almost daily. I am intimately famliar with them. I operate them instinctively and without thinking. So tell me, why in the hell would I strap on a completely different firearm when I go to town, than the one I am most familiar, proficient and comfortable with? Whether I'm going to a podunk local town for cattle feed or all the way to Memphis or Nashville, it matters not.


For the purpose of picking what kind of handgun to use as a current-day concealed weapon it should be clear that something introduced in 1873 might not be the best choice.
Yes because the S&W hand ejector and 1911 are sooooo much newer.


I will choose my own weaponry based on my own needs, preferences and desires. I suggest everybody else do the same. :rolleyes:

GRIZ22
April 20, 2011, 01:53 PM
Quote:
You only have to impress yourself. I take it your friends don't know or have ever seen your CCW? No one has ever seen your CCW.

It is irrelevant. Sorry buddy but you can't arbitrarily dismiss this one because you think I'm just doing it to show off.

Okay but the OP apparently thought it cool.

So I got to thinking, both of these features make it even more ideal for a CCW gun... Unfortunately is it still stuck with the SAA's five rounds.... but if you don't have big bucks for a custom Robar or otherwise, this may be a cool option


Quote:
It seems your personal bias is from what you may think you know.

Personal bias does not even enter into the equation

We are arguing SAs as a CCW vs better combat handguns. I'd say its all about personal bias.

You won't find anyone calling anything the "best" but you will find self defense courses designed around the single action revolver at Gunsite and Thunder Ranch. Their sentiments mirror my own, that if you are most familiar with an SA, then it IS a viable self defense weapon.


I guess you never read anything by Jeff Cooper extolling the virtues of the 1911 as a combat handgun. Before he died he even had nice things to say about Glocks. Reputable gun schools offer courses around SAs not because of a change of philosophy but because people are willing to pay for them. A business decision nothing more no sentiments involved. If people insist on carrying a SA as a SD gun we're willing to take their money and show the best ways.

I never said the SA wasn't a viable defesne weapon, I said:

1. Yes you are seriously armed
2. Yes you may be able to defend yourself if the fight stays within the parameters of your weapons system.


Quote:
You apparently have ignored my comment about being armed with a weapon that will work as long as everything stays within the limitations of the weapon.

What limitations are these? Reloading speed? We've covered that. Cocking the hammer? We've covered that. I never carry a reload anyway, so what am I really giving up when I strap on a sixgun vs. an Officer's length 1911?

Your major limitation is you don't carry a reload so your reloading speed is running back to the house I suppose. If its not over in 5-6 rounds your survival depends on how fast you can run and how well you can dodge the inferior 9mms coming from that BGs Glock.

A SAA or Blackhawk on your hip is no less prepared than a J frame in your pocket with no reload.

No argument from me on that point. I have always been an advocate of carrying a reload for whatever you have and I do.

Quote:
I suppose those advocates of CCWing a SA revolver would choose a lever action as the best combat rifle. They most likely never carry a spare tire in their car because they never had a flat

Hey Grizz. Do you carry a pair of full size spares in your car? You really should replace tires in pairs if you are to be propperly prepared.


Space saver spares have proven to be adequate in emergency situations just as SAs have proven adequate in SD situations when used within their limitations. I won't drive 75 mph on a space saver and I won't carry a SA for SD. My life is an issue with each and I want to give myself every edge I can get.

If you're not proficient with a proper battle rifle, then hell yes. The tool is worthless if you don't have the skill to operate it effectively. I didn't buy my first AR until six months ago and I'm still not completely comfortable with it. Conversely, I can run a levergun without thinking.

Many people are proficient with a variety of weapons. If you're not well you're not. Reloading that tube magazine on the lever action can be no where near as fast as swapping magazines in that AR. This thread has become a discussion of the best or better weapon for the job. I've used ARs for over 40 years for fun and serious work. Easy rifle to use. Millions have done it.

Nowhere here have you seen me try to talk anybody into anything. Merely explaining my choices and why

Isn't that what everyone is doing here. Conversation on why we think the way we do?

It still boggles the mind that some actually put more importance on the equipment than the skill to use it effectively.

It is important to use better equipment if its available. I realize that boggles some minds.

Apparently those who live in or near the city, who only use an indoor 25yd range a couple times a month and who only shoot handguns more socially acceptable for self defense think everybody else lives the same way. It's painfully obvious...

All of us who carry "socially acceptable" handguns know everyone doesn't live the same way. If that's the case then your SA is "socailly unacceptable" as a SD gun, kind of roguish...yeah, kind of cool! You said it I didn't.

I have a legitimate need to carry and use a firearm nearly every day.

Based on this statement those who carry for SD don't have a legitimate need to carry a gun? Isn't using certain guns for SD a legitimate need?

I also shoot nearly every day. I don't carry them just in case a bad guy jumps me, I USE THEM almost daily

OK but if there are seven rats in your feed you need to run back to the house for a reload (you said you never carry a reload). I suppose you engage each rat, snake , or barn cat with a quick draw and shooting as if your life depended on it. How many do you shoot a day vs all the city slickers that shoot at indoor ranges?

I will choose my own weaponry based on my own needs, preferences and desires. I suggest everybody else do the same.

Fine but it took several pages for you to say the primary purpose of your sidearm is shooting vermin not SD. A SA is fine for shooting vermin but there are better choices for SD as some have been discussing.

Red Cent
April 20, 2011, 04:57 PM
"Nowhere here have you seen me try to talk anybody into anything. Merely explaining my choices and why

Isn't that what everyone is doing here. Conversation on why we think the way we do?"

No, you are crassly criticizing my choice of handguns for self defense. And you are starting to sound very juvenile. Espsecially attempting to bait CraigC with remarks about vermin and self defense.

CarigC, we have attracted the children.


See my signature.


Well......BYE!!

savit260
April 20, 2011, 05:53 PM
Space saver spares have proven to be adequate in emergency situations just as SAs have proven adequate in SD situations when used within their limitations. I won't drive 75 mph on a space saver and I won't carry a SA for SD. My life is an issue with each and I want to give myself every edge I can get.
Grizz
Well you've picked a tire that I personally would find inadequate for my own usage and situation. There are much better tire options available you know. ;)

I however wouldn't presume to tell you that you ought to use something different. If you're comfy with your choice, that's all that really matters . :)

If you want every "edge" you can get... how far out do you take that?
Body armor?
Bullet proof glass?
Armored vehicle?

We all look at our own situations, and choose what we think is right for us.

Craig chooses a single action for his situation as do others. What exactly is wrong with that?

You choose a space saver spare while I go with a full size, and in an earlier part of my life... TWO full size spares.



Better for you doesn't equal better for the next guy.

GRIZ22
April 20, 2011, 07:17 PM
And you are starting to sound very juvenile. Espsecially attempting to bait CraigC with remarks about vermin and self defense.


He brought up vermin I didn't.

There is nothing crass or juvenile in my responses to the exchange of ideas at hand.

We all look at our own situations, and choose what we think is right for us.


We have been attempting to discuss the attributes of different firearms. Refusing to acknowledge the limitations of something is not wise.


OK I'm done.

joed
April 20, 2011, 07:25 PM
If you want to carry a SA 5 shot revolver for CCW more power to you. I personally want more odds stacked in my favor.

When I was in the service (Viet Nam) there was a young guy that flew in the Observation Helicopters that carried a Ruger Blackhawk in .357 while the rest of us carried M&P .38 Spls. I did not think he would survive the year but somehow he did.

But, he did have a door gunner sitting behind him with an M60 for backup. If it hadn't been for the backup I doubt he would have made it through the deployment.

Hagen442
April 20, 2011, 08:04 PM
My preferred Jacket Carry Gun is a 45 Colt SA Sheriff's Model in a Holliday Rig
My Old 2 Cents.
Hagen

Red Cent
April 20, 2011, 08:48 PM
sic 'em Hagen.

CraigC
April 20, 2011, 09:16 PM
CraigC, we have attracted the children.
Ain't that the truth! ;)

Old Fuff
April 20, 2011, 09:58 PM
... we have attracted the children.

It would seem so. :uhoh:

"Mothers, don't let your boys grow up to be cowboys..." :neener: :D

Jeb21
April 20, 2011, 10:10 PM
I am just not as good with SA revolvers as I am with a DA revolver. Therefore my carry revolver is a DA. If I was better with a SA revolver, I would be tempted to carry it. However, if I was ever in a gun fight I would want as many rounds as possible and a weapon system that I could quickly reload.

This45Colt
April 20, 2011, 10:38 PM
I wasn't expecting this thread to be as popular as it turned out to be!!!

Doc Holiday was the man!

Old Fuff
April 20, 2011, 11:23 PM
Doc Holiday was the man!

Well I suppose - depends on who you talked to back then. Incidentally it is documented that at least in one shooting incident he used a ".41 caliber self-cocker... " :what:

No evidence he had a "Holiday rig" either. :D

ironhead7544
April 29, 2011, 10:36 PM
I sometimes carry my 5 and 1/2 inch Ruger Flat Top 44 Special. Conceals OK under a light coat.

451 Detonics
April 30, 2011, 02:34 PM
If The gun I shot the best was a single action the I would carry it. I would rather have 5 rounds I knew I could place where they needed to go than 10 I was uncertain of. Confidence is a huge part of having a winning mentality. I carry a DA revolver, I also carry a second DA revolver for a BUG and I would most likely go for it instead of trying to reload my primary. If I carries an SA I would carry two for the same reason.

Carry what you can shoot well with and what you have confidence in.

Old Fuff
April 30, 2011, 08:02 PM
If I carries an SA I would carry two for the same reason.

Don't fall in a river... You might never be found. :D

StrawHat
May 1, 2011, 09:17 AM
Somewhere back around reply 50 someone (Craig C perhaps) asked how fast can a DA be reloaded without speed loaders. Myself and other have routinely shot 6 reloaded from loops and fired 6 more in 12 seconds or under. In PPC this is the first stage of fire, 12 shots in 25 seconds. And my score was 120 out of 120, okay not the first time but after a bit of competition I was shooting 120 with 8 or 9 Xs. When I went to speed loaders (HKS) I was able to reload faster and concentrate more on my sights so the X count went up. Even after years of practice, I was never as fast on the reload with a Model P Colt, not too much slower but only occassionally did I get 12 in 25 seconds.

My daily carry piece is an 4" N frame chambered for the 45 ACP and I carry one additional moonclip.

9MMare
May 2, 2011, 03:44 AM
So I attempted to use my new Uberti Cattleman Hombre today....I bought 2 on Gunbroker 2 weeks ago. Both seemed ok at home, I didnt have any ammo for them....they are for CMSA and we use blanks....got to practice today and the barrel was froze up.

At home I did a little dry firing, opened gates, rotated barrels, removed barrels, barrels moved smooothly. For one gun today, couldnt even get ammo into it...the barrel wouldnt move at all.

Had some of the more knowlegable people look at it. It wasnt an issue with the barrel, it was down in the action, something was preventing it from rotating. They worked it a bit and got it to move, but not reliably, certainly not reliably for a competition gun.

I guess I am on the phone to the dealer tomorrow. Not sure what to expect? Will they fix this gun or replace? One thing that bums me out is either way....another $40 FFL charge and probably shipping. :(

rogertc1
May 2, 2011, 05:57 AM
I was carrying my Taurus M450Ti ..which is a snubbie titanium 5 shot 45Colt DA revolver in a simply rugged pancake holster. The gun is light but kinda big in the grip.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/rogertc1/firearms/450T.jpg
I have a couple 3" 45C Rugers that I have carried both in a simply rugged pancake I had made. But even with a heavy duty belt and my large size the stainless beauties are just way too heavy.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/rogertc1/firearms/CowboyGrips.jpg
Recently I just carry a bobbed hammer Colt Detective that is very well worn.
Lower left in this group photo. I forget I have it on.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/rogertc1/firearms/allsnubbies.jpg

Jeb21
May 2, 2011, 11:51 AM
Great revolver collection!

goodtime
May 2, 2011, 10:19 PM
I'd say sure, if a person is already proficient with a single action revolver, then sure, he should carry it instead of carrying a higher-cap bottom feeder for self defense, if he's not proficient with the bottom feeder.

But, I think the point of many of the posters here, the ones who advocate semiauto pistols for self defense, is that there is a point at which a person is devoid of any proficiency with any gun at all, (at the very beginning of his gun training experiences, before he has committed to any type of gun) and, at that point, if that person were to begin down the road of becoming proficient with a firearm, then at that point, he'd be better advised to choose a semiauto to become proficient with then a single action revolver to become proficient with, if self defense were the name of the game.

It's not logical to compare a guy who's a single action whiz to a non-trained Glock toter. You gotta compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. At the beginning, before a person has become accustomed to any handgun, and if self defense is his purpose for carrying the gun, then the proven better tool to train with is the semiauto. That's why it's the choice of professionals everywhere.

I must say, however, that shooting needs germaine to working a 100 acre farm are distinctly different than those in an urban environment, and, I can see choosing a single action revolver there, even in the beginning, because self defense isn't the only game in town on such a piece of land, as CraigC illustrated.


9MMare:
Sorry about the bad luck with the Hombre. Check to see if the Cylinder pin is inserted properly; sometimes if it's not exactly in it's proper place, it will prevent the cylinder from turning.

popbang
May 3, 2011, 09:32 AM
I am also one who carries a single action revolver. It is alwayswith me either a Ruger Vaquero with 3-3/4 inch barrel or Ruger Blackhawk with 4-5/8 inch barrel. Both are in 45 Colt and both wear wide spur hammers.

I think one thing that is missed in much of the back and forth is that many of us who choose to seriously carry single action revolvers have put thought into this choice. Many of us use the platform for more than just concealed carry. Most of us who carry the platform shoot it frequently. And lastly, we enjoy shooting them.

A single action revolver is not the perfect choice, but there are a lot of factors that go into a choice. If we were only looking for the perfect choice we would look no further than a Glock 17 as all else is sub-standard. So, why is it everybody does not carry a Glock? The same reason we all make choices and have preferences.

One other issue I note from all those who carry a single action revolver is that I do not believe I have ever heard one of us tell anybody it is the best choice.

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