375 H&H Mag


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fggrub
April 15, 2011, 11:54 AM
Is it possible to load the 375 H&H Mag so that there is less recoil. It seems that 358 Win rifles are hard to come by if you are trying to stay below $1000.00. The same is pretty much true for the 35 Whelen.

Although I am mostly interested in hunting Elk this year, I am uncomfortable hunting in Elk and Bear country without having enough fire power to stop a Bear if he decides that I am in his terrytorry.

I currently have a Winchester pre64 in 30-06 and I would like to stay in that neighborhood as far as recoil is concerned. The 358 would do it, but they are hard to come by. I am not too fond of Rugers, but it seems that is the only controlled feed rifle that can be economically acquired.

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Vern Humphrey
April 15, 2011, 12:47 PM
Go to any reloading manual and choose the lightest bullet at the suggested starting load. Among starting loads, choose a low muzzle velocity and a low powder charge weight. The Hodgdon manual, for example, lists a 235-grain bullet loaded ahead of 69 grains of H4895 for 2519 fps.

For comparison, the same manual lists a max load for the .358 Winchester with a 220 grain bullet loaded ahead of 41 grains of H4198 at 2502 fps.

The .375 H&H load has a bit more bullet, a bit heavier powder charge (and hence a heavier ejects -- the total mass coming out of the muzzle) at about the same velocity. But that ads only a smidgen of recoil over the .358.

SaxonPig
April 15, 2011, 01:17 PM
A lighter bullet has the greatest effect on recoil (Newton's Third Law at work). The 235 Speer is a good choice for hunting medium sized game if you wish to do so and at 2500 FPS it will kill almost anything cleanly with tolerable recoil.

I plink with lead bullets intended for the 38-55 Winchester. A 250 grain lead bullet at around 2000 FPS shoots nicely from my BRNO and recoil is not bad at all. I have shot 40 of these at a time at the range.

http://www.fototime.com/4B23862FAB641C8/standard.jpg

Shaky
April 15, 2011, 02:02 PM
The Remington 750 comes in 35 Whelen and the semi-auto should lessen the recoil, if you don't have your heart set on the .375 (and you're not screwed if anything happens to your handloaded ammo if you're hunting away from home).

451 Detonics
April 15, 2011, 03:01 PM
I really feel the 375 H&H is a light recoiling round thanks largely to it's long tapered case design. Recoil is much less sharp than that of the 300 Win Mag and I think on par with the 30-06 with bullets under 300 grains. It is also capable of superb long range accuracy. I shot several .375's over the years for competition and it wasn't unusual to shoot 35-40 rounds in a day and I never even had a bruise to show for it. I shot both a Winchester Model 70 and a Steyr Model S.

Welding Rod
April 15, 2011, 03:22 PM
I have a 10 pound Ruger Magnum .375 H&H. With Hornady Heavy Magnum loads it has the worst percieved recoil of any gun I have ever shot, including an approximately 8 pound Remington 375 H&H and an 8 pound 416 Ruger. When I bought those Hornady loads I didn't know what the "HM" on box meant.

I may try making up some lighter loads myself.

SlamFire1
April 15, 2011, 03:41 PM
235 grain bullets in my H&H are not bad.

Kick one heck of a lot less than slugs in a 12 Ga pump.

jerkface11
April 15, 2011, 07:26 PM
Hodgdon shows trailboss loads for 235gr bullets. 1100fps should be a powderpuff.

Maverick223
April 16, 2011, 01:06 PM
I really feel the 375 H&H is a light recoiling round thanks largely to it's long tapered case design. Recoil is much less sharp than that of the 300 Win Mag and I think on par with the 30-06 with bullets under 300 grains. It is also capable of superb long range accuracy.I concur with this statement. I have a .30-06Spd. (with a poorly designed stock) that has greater perceived recoil than my Whitworth Express .375H&H (which is of comparable weight, less scope).

I have a 10 pound Ruger Magnum .375 H&H. With Hornady Heavy Magnum loads it has the worst percieved recoil of any gun I have ever shotA friend of mine used to own one and I agree...that booger was worse than his .416Rigby. Most of the problem can be attributed to the Ruger Magnum's horribly designed stock. To the OP: I would steer clear of those and look into a new model (or older "classic model" with CRF) Winchster M-70 Safari. They run in the neighborhood of about $1150.00 and are well worth the added expense IMO.

FWIW I use 220gr. Hornady Interlocks for light game and plunking (can't really call it "plinking" with a greater than .30cal. rifle). It affords fairly modest recoil when loaded to reasonable levels...on par, perhaps even lesser than, a .30-06Spd. That said, I believe my next lot of projectiles will be the 225gr. variety to attain a bit better ballistic coefficient.

:)

Vern Humphrey
April 16, 2011, 01:54 PM
I really feel the 375 H&H is a light recoiling round thanks largely to it's long tapered case design.
The taper of the case has nothing to do with recoil. Recoil velocity is calculated by the formula M1 X V1 = M2 X V2, where M1 is the mass of the ejecta (bullet and gas), V1 is the velocity of the ejecta, M2 is the mass of the rifle, and V2 is the rearward velocity of the rifle.

The .375 H&H case is tapered because the cartrdige was designed to be used in nasty conditions in the tropics, where a tapering case aids in extration -- move it just a little, and it breaks free of the chamber walls.

That's the reason it has a belted head, also -- the belted head is really a very thick rim with and extraction groove cut in its edge. The idea was to cut the chamber a bit deeper than needed, to allow crud to be pushed ahead of the cartrige. The thick rim also prevents rim lock in the magazine and is compatable with the Mauser claw extractor.

451 Detonics
April 16, 2011, 03:03 PM
Well... I believe the folks who have been shooting rifles longer than I have been alive when they point out the very shallow shoulder allows the ejecta to flow out of the case in a much more civilized manner than the very abrupt should of other rounds like the .300 Win Mag. It is the long taper of the case that allow the very shallow shoulder on the case. I am not saying it doesn't aid in extraction, I am just saying it has other benefits as well.

Vern Humphrey
April 16, 2011, 03:28 PM
the very shallow shoulder allows the ejecta to flow out of the case in a much more civilized manner than the very abrupt should of other rounds like the .300 Win Mag
I bet you believed Roy Weatherby's hype about his "venturi" shoulder, too.;)

The shoulder angle has nothing to do with recoil -- nothing at all. And that's easy to prove -- you can compare any AI case with the parent case in identical rifles -- if the shoulder angle has any effect on recoil, the AI cartridges should kick much harder. But they don't.

SHR970
April 16, 2011, 04:55 PM
Another way to reduce you recoil is to reduce the velocity. Using powders like Accurate 5744, IMR SR 4759, etc. you can have loads that run around 2000 fps with 300 gr. bullets. If you don't see published data on the powder makers websites, just email or call them. They're all pretty good about helping us out.

451 Detonics
April 16, 2011, 05:05 PM
The shoulder angle has nothing to do with recoil -- nothing at all. And that's easy to prove -- you can compare any AI case with the parent case in identical rifles -- if the shoulder angle has any effect on recoil, the AI cartridges should kick much harder. But they don't.

Well...you what they say about opinions...

H&Hhunter
April 16, 2011, 05:09 PM
Here is my cure all to recoil sensitivity and the .375H&H. Go get your hands on a 9 lb .458 Lott. Spend the day shooting full house 500 gr loads through it. Then pick up your .375H&H and it'll seem like a fair maidens breath against your poor little shoulder when fired.;)

My reduced load in a .375H&H is a 270 gr bullet behind a medium load of IMR 4895 for a velocity of around 2500 to 2600 FPS. It's very manageable. Two things that make perceived recoil worse are stock fit/shape and decent recoil pad.

Those RSMs are heavy for caliber but the stock shape isn't that bad. With a 1.5" decelerator on them I find the recoil to be very mild even with the hottest 300gr loads. The old red hard rubber pads they come with are abusive as they grab and pinch skin and have zero give. I can't stand the RSM in .375H&H simply because they are WAY to heavy for caliber. I've got a double rifle in .470 NE, 10 lbs and a .404 Jeffery bolt gun 10.5 lbs that weigh the same as an RSM in .375 H&H, 10lbs. And neither is abusive to fire with a decent recoil pad installed.

Welding Rod
April 16, 2011, 05:13 PM
I got that stock Ruger 1/4 hard rubber "pad" - ouch. I think its only purpose is to prevent the wood from getting scratched when the butt sits on the ground.

TGReaper
April 16, 2011, 05:26 PM
arguably the best all around cartridge in the world.

The most important contributor to "felt" recoil is stock design and fit to the shooter. I find that the recoil of my .375 H& in my Win.Mod.70 Super Express
is not noticeable more offencive than my MOD.70 in 30-06.

Having said that I do not generally load it to dangerous game levels. For white tail deer and elk etc. I use either Speer 235 gr spitzer's or Hornady 225 gr spitzer's.loaded to 2800 fps.for the 235s or 2850 fps for the 225s. Both can be loaded considerably lighter and still be very effective.

TGR

Maverick223
April 16, 2011, 06:11 PM
The shoulder angle has nothing to do with recoil -- nothing at all.Yep, the only factors are bullet weight, velocity, and powder consumption. It is mitigated by rifle weight, well designed stock, recoil pad, and/or pesky muzzle device. Case taper effects extraction and case life...that's about it.

OTOH, I believe that the taper is one of the best design features as it ensures ease of extraction in the harshest of conditions.

:)

Vern Humphrey
April 16, 2011, 06:14 PM
OTOH, I believe that the taper is one of the best design features as it ensures ease of extraction in the harshest of conditions.
And H&H designed the .375 Magnum for just those conditions. Every feature of the cartridge is there for a reason -- including its cavernous capacity, which is designed th mitigate pressure problems with using Cordite in tropical climates.

usmc1371
April 16, 2011, 08:54 PM
I have shot a few boxes of the Federal 260 grain Acubonds through my CZ 550 375 HnH and IMHO they are very pleasent to shoot. I would go so far as to say they are "nicer" to shoot than 180 grain loads out of my M77 30-06. It is way less recoil than my 300wm, atleast if feels like less. I am sure some of this is due to the weight of the cz and the nice soft but pad. I have killed two deer and a coyote with the Acubonds, one of the deer was over 300 yards. I would use them for elk in a heart beat and I have killed over a dozen elk with 30-06 and 300wm.

Pete D.
April 17, 2011, 04:33 AM
About the tapered case....I was under the impression that the taper was because the Cordite used was in long strands as opposed to kernels and the taper allowed for its use. One finds a similar shallow shoulder on many British cartridges developed using Cordite. The 470 NE is another example.
I have had success loading AA 5744 behind a 235 grain bullet.

Silent Sam
April 17, 2011, 06:42 AM
If I was going elk hunting I wouldn't consider light for caliber bullets in the 375. The 235gr bullets are designed for 375 Win velocities and are relatively soft and a low BC to boot. Good for whitetails if you keep them slowed down. I would slow down a 260-270gr to the best accuracy considering the impact velocity and drop at the expected max range. Get the stock so that it fits with a good pad and shoot a couple hundred rounds of your hunting load from field positions after you get a good zero. It is not hard to get a relatively easy shooting powerful load with the 375, even with 300gr bullets.

If you want a 358 Browning and Ruger are your choices unless you build your own. I have used a BLR in 358 on moose and elk (in bear country) and would do so again.

jkingrph
April 17, 2011, 10:01 AM
I have a 10 pound Ruger Magnum .375 H&H. With Hornady Heavy Magnum loads it has the worst percieved recoil of any gun I have ever shot, including an approximately 8 pound Remington 375 H&H and an 8 pound 416 Ruger. When I bought those Hornady loads I didn't know what the "HM" on box meant.

I may try making up some lighter loads myself.
I agree, I have a 375 H&H in a Ruger #1 and for some reason it recoils sharper and faster than anything else I have. My first centerfiire was a Win 70 ftw 30-06 and it was bad enough, but by adding a recoil pad to lengthen stock, it was tamed.

The Ruger is bad reguardless of what I do, it just kicks hard and fast. I also have a #1 in 458 Win mag and it's a pussycat comparet to the 375. I have another 375 H&H, a CZ Safari American and it is more pleasant than my lightweight 30-06.

I think some calibers, some specific rifle configurations, with a certain person will recoil harshly, whereas the same rifle and caliber will be fine for someone else.

Kachok
April 17, 2011, 11:00 AM
Recoil is far from being a simple formula IMHO my old heavy 7mm rem mag kicks MUCH worse then my featherweight tactical 12guage with 3" magnum slugs. On paper the shotgun has well over twice as much recoil but in real life I can shoot it all day long and the 7mm mag leaves me bruised for days after shooting it :what: To throw another wrench in the works my 270WSM with max pressure handloads in my even lighter savage is a pleasure to shoot. It exceeds the performance of my old 7mm rem mag. I really think the fit of the stock, speed of the projectile, and firmness of the recoil pad have more to do with it then the mathimatical formulas for recoil. I have never noticed recoil decreasing with a lower shoulder angle, if that were the case I think my 35 degree WSM would knock my shoulder out of socket. Insted it is less because the short action allows for an aprox 10% less powder charge. Less prowder = less recoil.

MachIVshooter
April 17, 2011, 12:59 PM
Recoil is far from being a simple formula IMHO my old heavy 7mm rem mag kicks MUCH worse then my featherweight tactical 12guage with 3" magnum slugs.

Perceived recoil is a different animal than actual recoil. This is where gun design, recoil pads, muzzle brakes, etc., come into play.

On that note, I've never thought the .375 H&H was particularly harsh. It's lower velocities equate to a hard push more than a sharp kick. Guns like my .375 RUM, on the other hand, which are ~3,000 FPS with those same heavy bullets, can be quite nasty. My 300 gr./2,970 FPS loads are almost intolerable off the bench in the 7-1/2 pound 700 BDL with no brake, generating a calculated 82 ft/lbs at 23 MPH.

H&Hhunter
April 17, 2011, 01:23 PM
About the tapered case....I was under the impression that the taper was because the Cordite used was in long strands as opposed to kernels and the taper allowed for its use.

Pete,

That is true all of the older British cases are long and tapered for the reason you mention the .404 Jeffery being a wonderful example of such with a shallow tapper and a long gracious neck. Which accomplishes two things it makes the use of cordite possible and it makes a round feed and eject slicker than wet owl poop. The exact opposite of a short straight walled case like a WSM which can be a feed and function nightmare.


jkingrph,

I agree, I have a 375 H&H in a Ruger #1 and for some reason it recoils sharper and faster than anything else I have.

Three factors at play with the #1 that makes them unpleasant to shoot in a heavier recoiling rifle. 1. They are light for caliber. 2. They are light in the front end poor weight distribution in the front of the rifle makes for a very whippy recoil. 3. And once again with the hard rubber recoil pad that rugger insists on using.

Welding Rod
April 17, 2011, 01:47 PM
Recoil is far from being a simple formula IMHO my old heavy 7mm rem mag kicks MUCH worse then my featherweight tactical 12guage with 3" magnum slugs. On paper the shotgun has well over twice as much recoil but in real life I can shoot it all day long and the 7mm mag leaves me bruised for days after shooting it :what:

I don't want to stray too much, but my 7mm Rem Mag Ruger Hawkeye in a Boyds laminated stock is a pussy cat, feeling on par or softer than my .270 M70 Featherweight.

The Ruger Magnum is a beautiful rifle. Mine has gorgeous wood. I need to get the stock shortened and a good pad put on their. I really do like the 375 H&H and it was hard to pass up the rifle when it was new on sale for ~$1,300 a year or two ago.

If I had to do it over again though I would get a new Winchester African which is lighter and has a nice pad.

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