Sig Sauer quality is way down


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the_skunk
April 15, 2011, 12:19 PM
Sig Sauer quality is way down. At least buying a Taurus, you are paying 1/3 the price, and the quality is decent

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Ala Dan
April 15, 2011, 03:42 PM
Get yourself an old West German SIG-SAUER; you will thank me later~! ;) :D

G.barnes
April 15, 2011, 04:43 PM
The only problem that my sig p220 has is I can't afford to feed it. It's the best out of the box gun I've ever owned.

glove
April 15, 2011, 07:48 PM
Sig Sauer quality is way down. At least buying a Taurus, you are paying 1/3 the price, and the quality is decent
Yea and there customer service also sucks.

PO2Hammer
April 16, 2011, 12:36 PM
Sig Sauer quality is way down.
So that's it?
Seems kinda' thin even for the typical Sig bashing thread.
Did you guys give up on 'Sigs rust'?

AK103K
April 16, 2011, 12:59 PM
Do a search on the boy, here, and a few other places, and you'll see where this is going, and what you can expect for answers from him. :rolleyes:

Water-Man
April 16, 2011, 12:59 PM
First Troll of the day.

the_skunk
April 16, 2011, 01:51 PM
Get yourself an old West German SIG-SAUER; you will thank me later~!


The german made p230s were first class and reliable ....... cops loved them .... the latest batch of 232s the cops won't touch

Big_John1961
April 16, 2011, 01:52 PM
Sig Sauer quality is way down. At least buying a Taurus, you are paying 1/3 the price, and the quality is decent
Dumb post, with no supporting evidence. My personal experience with Sig has been nothing but good.

Big_John1961
April 16, 2011, 01:55 PM
The german made p230s were first class and reliable ....... cops loved them .... the latest batch of 232s the cops won't touch
And your evidence supporting this is? Links? Articles?

9mmepiphany
April 16, 2011, 02:00 PM
Seems kinda' thin even for the typical Sig bashing thread.

Just to defend and clarify the OP, his post...and the first 2 responses...were lifted from a much older (2009) thread and placed here. Enough time had passed that experiences have become dated...the OP's post was in response to another thread on the subject.

He isn't trolling

AK103K
April 16, 2011, 02:55 PM
He isn't trolling
Actually, if you look around at some other things he posted across the internet gun boards, you might have a change of opinion on that.

He claims to have had troubles, but when asked just what the problems were, from people trying to help, he either doenst answer the question, or posts pics of rifle parts, and other guns that have nothing to do with a P232, or even a SIG.

Do a Google search on his name and P232, and you will see hes been on many of the boards, and posts nothing of value, other than his displeasure with SIG and a P232, and most of the comments, are mostly from vague to out there, like the one that started this one. He just keeps coming back, stirring the pot from time to time.

At first, I was starting to feel sorry for him, and even thought English might not be his first language. At this point, I think hes just screwing with us, and having a grand time at it to boot.

9mmepiphany
April 16, 2011, 03:04 PM
Thank you

Don't take my post as a blanket statement...it is only to clarify that the OP is short because it was detached from a longer thread.

I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt in this case and I hope his reading of this would help him consider his future postings with the awareness that he has come to the attention of some members

Lateck
April 16, 2011, 05:36 PM
Sig Sauer quality is way down. At least buying a Taurus, you are paying 1/3 the price, and the quality is decent
I'll have to dis-agree........
I have ordered and bought out of the counter a number of SIG's over the last year and ALL have been TOP Quality.
Now as to comparing them to a Taurus.......
I can't (don't own a Taurus) but if I compare them to my Ruger's, which are 1/2 the price, the SIG's are still a better built gun! (Worth the price difference? Can't say).
My grandchildren will be able to have my SIG's. That's how good they are. In my mind.

Lateck,

toocool
April 16, 2011, 05:50 PM
Sig Sauer quality is way down. At least buying a Taurus, you are paying 1/3 the price, and the quality is decent

Wrong...TWICE!!!

TGReaper
April 16, 2011, 06:00 PM
If this is true they must have been really something. Most of my C.F.pistols are 1911s but the P226 that I bought a month ago impresses me,It's operation has been flawless.

TGR

The Lone Haranguer
April 16, 2011, 09:32 PM
I had a SIG 1911 that was dreadful, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new P-series pistol even though they are no longer German-made. In fact I am lusting after a single-action P220 (the gun I should have bought instead of the 1911).

rellascout
April 16, 2011, 09:34 PM
There is a good deal on those at CDNN right now. IIRC under $700

HOOfan_1
April 16, 2011, 09:44 PM
but if I compare them to my Ruger's, which are 1/2 the price, the SIG's are still a better built gun! (Worth the price difference? Can't say).
My grandchildren will be able to have my SIG's. That's how good they are. In my mind.


I own 3 Rugers that were my grandfather's. He owned those guns as long as I can remember and he has been dead for 15 years. One of them is the most accurate centerfire handgun I have ever shot.

So I'd say they are pretty high quality too.

sparks701
April 17, 2011, 11:07 AM
Got a SP2022 built in US in Dec. 2010, have not had a single issue with it yet (2000 rnds) and it is supposed to be their "budget" gun. With the quality of this lesser priced Sig ($394) I'm looking forward to my next Sig. 226 or 229 just can't decide yet.

DAP90
April 17, 2011, 01:25 PM
Sig Sauer quality is way down.


Seems like I hear this about virtually every firearm manufacturer at some point. That or the quality was never high to begin with and couldn't go any lower.

It's a wonder any of our firearms ever work.

Auto426
April 17, 2011, 02:40 PM
Actually, if you look around at some other things he posted across the internet gun boards, you might have a change of opinion on that.

He claims to have had troubles, but when asked just what the problems were, from people trying to help, he either doenst answer the question, or posts pics of rifle parts, and other guns that have nothing to do with a P232, or even a SIG.

Do a Google search on his name and P232, and you will see hes been on many of the boards, and posts nothing of value, other than his displeasure with SIG and a P232, and most of the comments, are mostly from vague to out there, like the one that started this one. He just keeps coming back, stirring the pot from time to time.

At first, I was starting to feel sorry for him, and even thought English might not be his first language. At this point, I think hes just screwing with us, and having a grand time at it to boot

I can vouch for what AK103 is saying. He's been on several different fun forums making the same claims about SIG and dodging any and all questions asked about those claims. He usually posts under the same name as well, so it's pretty easy to pick him out.

JoeMal
April 17, 2011, 02:55 PM
My cousin just bought a 2022 and the finish is already wearing off (down to less than 50%) on the top of the barrel. The slide is also showing wear and squeaks significantly when you rack the slide, even after a fresh coat of oil. He's put less than 400 rounds through it.

mgregg85
April 17, 2011, 03:10 PM
I've recently had a P232 that was flawless. It never had a single failure of any kind and was a well made gun. My only complaint was that it was too large for pocket carry but that was no fault of Sig or the gun.

My most recent purchase was a Sig P238 and it has been excellent. I've only put about 300 rounds through it but it hasn't had a single failure either. Upon close inspection it really appears to be an awesome little pocket pistol.

I'd be interested to hear some details from the OP. I understand that this was started as a graft from another thread but its about time for an explanation with some details, maybe some pictures of these problems with the P232s.

9mmepiphany
April 17, 2011, 03:42 PM
My cousin just bought a 2022 and the finish is already wearing off (down to less than 50%) on the top of the barrel. The slide is also showing wear and squeaks significantly when you rack the slide, even after a fresh coat of oil. He's put less than 400 rounds through it.
The wear on the barrel is normal, the squeak you are hearing is likely the flat spring, and he should be lubing with grease rather than oil

mgregg85
April 17, 2011, 04:09 PM
Sorry, had a little double post somehow.

BrainOnSigs
April 17, 2011, 05:11 PM
I own 12 Sigs....all P-series.....most pre 2000....finest handguns I have ever owned.

I'll agree that SIG went off the deep end once they messed with their bread and butter P-series.

Their foray into 1911s (sorry....Matt McLearn is a shooter...not a project manager), the civie version of the 551/552 (the 556...GEEZ...we wanted the 551/552 folder right out of the gate)......Sig Mosquito (zinc slide, safety on slide....tactical rail.....won't shoot cheap ammo........just like the bug....annoying).....plus their 500 different versions of the P-series....Elite, Tactical Elite, Blackwater, Rainbow slide, etc. etc, etc.....left many SIG owners scratching their collective heads.

rellascout
April 17, 2011, 06:09 PM
I own 12 Sigs....all P-series.....most pre 2000....finest handguns I have ever owned.

I'll agree that SIG went off the deep end once they messed with their bread and butter P-series.

Their foray into 1911s (sorry....Matt McLearn is a shooter...not a project manager), the civie version of the 551/552 (the 556...GEEZ...we wanted the 551/552 folder right out of the gate)......plus their 500 different versions of the P-series....Elite, Tactical Elite, Blackwater, Rainbow slide, etc. etc, etc.....left many SIG owners scratching their collective heads.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I guess the question then becomes are they selling more now then they were when they built them like we like them.

Unfortunately I think it is more now. They have scored a lot of mid sized Govt contracts. They have brought production in house and are running a lot of metal down the pipe. From a business side of the things Sig is growing. I think they are selling more pistols now than ever but I am not sure what profits look like because I am not an owner. IIRC it is a privately held company.

Odds are way in your favor of getting a good gun out of Sig these days with the following noted exceptions, Sig Mosquito, 556 Russian, P238 & recently the Sig Pro SP2022, QC out of the box is probably within 2% points of the good old days. If they are broke they fix them even if it takes two trips. :)

Are they as good as they used to be? No are they horrible no... You have to look at them and judge them against the rest of the market. They used to be worth the extra money... You have to choose if that is still the case.

BigN
April 17, 2011, 06:16 PM
The Sig prices aren't going down as quickly as the quality apparently is. I haven't owned one so I can't say but as far as Taurus is concerned, you better stick with the Sig, regardless of the price...(I do own a Taurus so I speak from a miserable experience)

BrainOnSigs
April 17, 2011, 06:17 PM
rellascout...thanks for reminding me of the Mosquito cluster..... ;)

rellascout
April 17, 2011, 06:24 PM
BrainOnSigs

The problem with the 556 was that WE wanted a 552 but they could not sell a 552 to the LEO market. So they had to market the 556 and work back. It is still not the same rifle IMHO. Since they have the production almost... I think they should produce real 552, maybe 500 hundred a year. That would keep a lot of purist happy.

I think that is what they are doing with the P210. Which I think is cool. not sure how many they are going to sell but....

More and more these days I think the old school Sig guy is on the wrong side of the equation.

JQP
April 18, 2011, 02:45 AM
Best firearm decision I made recently was a Kahr CW9 for concealed carry. Accurate, well made, very light, extremely thin and reliable.

Worst firearm decision ever made: Selling my 2005 (I think - maybe 2003 or 2004, but bought new) Sig P239, with West German made frame. I would never part with that firearm if I ever had the opportunity to get it back. Never. It was built like a tank, was utterly reliable, had amazing fit and finish, and...well...I don't think it's replaceable now unless I wanted to spend major $$$. People with the W. German frame P239s are very reluctant to part with them.

GreyCoupe
April 18, 2011, 08:52 AM
Santa brought me a p226 Allround in .40 S&W this year, and I am wowed by it. Fit, finish, out of the box accuracy, performance. All stainless steel, made in Germany. It is a solid handgun. I expect it will last several lifetimes.
Grease it and go!

PabloJ
April 18, 2011, 09:13 AM
Western Europeans don't open factories or assembly plants in United States to make better products just to bring price of assembly or manufacture down. I give companies like Zeiss lot of credit for making quality products affordable to Joe average unlike American companies making stuff in China charging us outrageous prices and pocketing extra profits for themselves. I would much rather pay my hard earned money for FNH from South Carolina and give American job then Springfield Armory XP made in Croatia. Incredibly the retail price is about the same. It's sad to see others overpaying for stuff from across the ocean.

the_skunk
April 18, 2011, 01:26 PM
Sig makes some great guns but the P238 has teething problems, the Mosqiuto is problematic, and the recent P232s have a bad breech face, and jamming is a problem.

So, the 232 is a 70 yr old design (PPK,Bersa, Makarov, FEG, etc) ..... there have been 10 million clones, but the recent P232s are problematic.

Rexster
April 19, 2011, 12:40 AM
My P229 pistols have worked as well as my West German P220, which is to say perfectly reliably. Eight SIGs, all reliable. Half of my Glocks had problems of some kind. All of my Kimbers had minor to major issues. I had mixed success with other 1911s. The only auto pistols to perform as reliably as my SIGs, in a product sample of several pistols, were my several 3rd-Generation S&W autos.

To be clear, I am talking about "classic" SIGs, not the 238 and 1911 experiments, which never should have happened, IMHO. I also find the P232 rather irrelevant, being too big for such a puny cartridge, but the few I know who own them, like them.

I am sure some SIGs have problems/issues, but mine are A-OK. SIGs will do to ride the river with, to paraphrase an old border lawman saying.

bsg
April 19, 2011, 01:40 AM
Got a SP2022 built in US in Dec. 2010, have not had a single issue with it yet (2000 rnds) and it is supposed to be their "budget" gun. With the quality of this lesser priced Sig ($394) I'm looking forward to my next Sig. 226 or 229 just can't decide yet.
your Sig is one of the understated handguns on the market today. imo it measures up.

i prefer the older w german/german Sigs but the Pro Series is a good example of some of the good stuff being made today.

Jonah71
April 19, 2011, 08:39 AM
Get yourself an old West German SIG-SAUER; you will thank me later~! ;) :D
I traded my 1980 Sig P-6 9mm. Big mistake! I've decided to look for another one.

rellascout
April 19, 2011, 08:42 AM
your Sig is one of the understated handguns on the market today. imo it measures up.

i prefer the older w german/german Sigs but the Pro Series is a good example of some of the good stuff being made today

Keep an eye on the SP2022 in 40 & 357 Sig. The new ones coming out of the Exter have had some recent reports of issues.

JohnBT
April 19, 2011, 09:12 AM
"I am sure some SIGs have problems/issues"

I believe Bruce Gray @ Grayguns has finally found someone to manufacture his redesigned internal extractor for guns like my X-5 TAC TB.

SIG still hasn't answered the question about why they didn't fix it themselves. I guess in their world view their stuff don't stink.

_____

from sigforum...

April 12, 2011 07:17 PM

I had the unique opportunity to shoot the gun with the prototype extractor in it and I have to say that I'm impressed at how well it works.

The brass was kicking up and out so fast that I had 5 rounds in the air before I knew it.

This extractor should take care of most all extraction issues with the internal extractor Sigs.

Scott

IkenI
April 19, 2011, 10:01 AM
I don't like the direction SIG has been going for the last few years with all the glitz, rails, beavertails, and rainbow. That's probably saved me some $$ tho' and they are in business to make money, not satisfy SIG purists. However, I have a SIG P229 SAS2 in DAK that is as good as anything I've seen over the last few years (after I replaced the new thin trigger). It's not my favorite SIG because I like .45s. I have an older SIG P220 SAS DAK (with internal extractor) that is accurate, reliable and a great handgun. I have a German P220 and P245 (nuff said). Having said all the above I recently purchased a new SIG P220. It was born Jan 2011. No rail, no beavertail, old style trigger and reset. It came with SIG night sights and is reminiscent of the older SIGs. I took them all to the range yesterday and the new P220 is a keeper. It had a better trigger and was more accurate than any of the others. I have had SIGs for years and have never had a malfunction -- period. I do lube them the way they should be lubed and i shoot the heck out of them. The only times I have dealt with SIG customer service is when using their custom shop. Their service was always great to me. Not trying to argue, just reflecting my experience. Here's my new P220 born Jan 2011.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/IkenI_photo/003-2.jpg

jeffbob
April 19, 2011, 10:04 AM
Hi
I had a brand new Sig p220 Marksman with the long barrel that was supposed to be for target shooting. I shot 20 rounds and all of a sudden I could not pull the trigger etc.

I took the gun apart and found that the disconnect had become bent after 20 rounds. I bent that back to the proper configuration and removed all burrs and now the pistol works fine.

I can look up the part #'s that I have forgotten, but the problem was on the right side up top. Sorry, I have forgotten and am working out of town so I am little help.

Thanks
Jeff

06
April 19, 2011, 10:37 AM
Have absolutely no complaints with my 232 380. Smooth, accurate, and fast. Looking for it's brother. There are certainly "lemons" in everything mechanical--and also in us humans. One cannot expect absolute perfection. What one can expect is a small percentage of error.

JohnBT
April 19, 2011, 01:31 PM
That's the complaint, Sig used to have a small percentage of errors year in and year out. Now the numbers have blossomed. And it's not just production errors, it's the design blunders that have ruined Sig's once elite reputation for reliable function.

I suppose that's what you get when you hire Kimber's former boss. I hope they're happy.

John

trex1310
April 19, 2011, 02:45 PM
First, I'm not a Sig expert and have only owned 2, a P229 Equinox and a
P238. The P229 was a jam-o-matic from day 1, no matter the ammo,
the magazine, etc. I traded it in on a Springfield XDM .45. The XDM is
flawless. BTW I sent the Sig back 2 times. It was never repaired to
stop the jamming. This was my experience and I have no axe to grind,
it's just what happened to me.

TriTone
April 19, 2011, 04:12 PM
I just got my first sig, a 1979 P-6 and I just love the feel of the gun. It shoots high (something Ill probably post about later) but I still love it. Got it for$200 with '09 trijicons and old style hogue grips. Anytime I'm looking to strengthen my finger for DA trigger pulls its my go to gun. ( Those who have one know exactly what I'm talking about ). It always amazes me how clean the SA break is. I now have my sights set on an X-5.

Now I'm not claiming to know any information about the company and it's manufacturing, but any time you move production theres bound to be intermittent issues as things settle in. Also, don't forget that even if it is only about 2% of sigs with problems, the more sigs going out each there, the larger that 2% becomes! Let's say sig was putitng out 5,000 guns to civilian shelves three years ago, at 2% thats still a hundred guns on shelves that have problems. By any stroke of luck, five of us on these forums could purchase those guns and all of a sudden SIG quality has gone down the drain. Hence the importance of good CS when QC can't be 100% perfect. I'm betting sig makes a lot more that 5,000 guns a year so if it is about 2% that have problems, theres hundreds of them out there with problems waiting to happen. Same as with any other manufacturers products. Doesn't mean they're not as good as they used to be or suddenly sig makes poor products.

That said, the new ones sure don't feel as good as my P-6!

JTQ
April 19, 2011, 11:36 PM
IkenI wrote,
I recently purchased a new SIG P220. It was born Jan 2011. No rail, no beavertail, old style trigger and reset. It came with SIG night sights and is reminiscent of the older SIGs.
What model is that 220? I haven't seen new production without a rail, though I admit I'm just a casual Sig observer. Is the front strap serrated?

bsg
April 20, 2011, 03:46 AM
I don't like the direction SIG has been going for the last few years with all the glitz, rails, beavertails, and rainbow. That's probably saved me some $$ tho' and they are in business to make money, not satisfy SIG purists. However, I have a SIG P229 SAS2 in DAK that is as good as anything I've seen over the last few years (after I replaced the new thin trigger). It's not my favorite SIG because I like .45s. I have an older SIG P220 SAS DAK (with internal extractor) that is accurate, reliable and a great handgun. I have a German P220 and P245 (nuff said). Having said all the above I recently purchased a new SIG P220. It was born Jan 2011. No rail, no beavertail, old style trigger and reset. It came with SIG night sights and is reminiscent of the older SIGs. I took them all to the range yesterday and the new P220 is a keeper. It had a better trigger and was more accurate than any of the others. I have had SIGs for years and have never had a malfunction -- period. I do lube them the way they should be lubed and i shoot the heck out of them. The only times I have dealt with SIG customer service is when using their custom shop. Their service was always great to me. Not trying to argue, just reflecting my experience. Here's my new P220 born Jan 2011.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/IkenI_photo/003-2.jpg
i've got a w german P220 .45 ACP and it's waiting for it's stablemate; w german P220-E .45 ACP that sits in layaway.

congratulations on your P220; nice looking gun.

jrdavidson
April 20, 2011, 09:51 AM
I have 6 Sigs in the safe right now. While most are the older German folded steel slides with no rails (I don't like doodad add-ons), several are the newer stamped slide models assembled in the US. I even have several police trade-ins (US and European) and they are every bit as solid as my new guns (after I replaced their springs).

The complaints I see in this thread are mostly from people who a) hear of someone else's problem with a Sig, or b) clearly did not lube/maintain their Sig adequately, or c) got a lemon - which happens to all manufacturers from time to time.

My Sigs are rock solid reliable, easy to shoot, and supremely crafted, but I still maintain them with care. There are armorer CDs available to inform the new user in the finer points of dissassembly and cleaning. Once you do it, its second nature. I believe that being able to maintain a handgun is part of the owner/operator's responsibility for personal and social safety.

I've owned Taurii before and I don't prefer them. My son's Taurus Beretta clone has poorer ergonomics than my Sigs (mostly Beretta's fault since they made the original design), but it shoots well enough. The Taurus lifetime warranty is great, but you have to ship it to Miami (and possibly on to Brazil) to make a claim - as my son did when his mag release spring escaped and he could not find parts locally or online.

codefour
April 20, 2011, 10:46 AM
I have owned and fired a many Sig Sauer pistols. All of them are or were the P series in either 220, 226, 228, or 229.

I have never ran into a bad Sig pistol. Once in a while, the springs will wear out and loose their eslasticity but it is a maintenance item on any auto loader.

At work, our issue Glock 22's are starting to have serious problems after they were fired for 10,00 rounds and it was not maintenance issues (ie: springs). The polymer frames were just wearing out. Both trigger block pin holes were rounding out and the plastic was worn through causing the pins to fall out freely. Sorry, I went out on a tangent and this was not meant to hijack the thread into a Sig vs Glock.

Never had those problems with a Sig. Failures to fire, feed, extract, RARELY happen on Sigs and they were usually fault of the operator.

rellascout
April 20, 2011, 10:58 AM
Never had those problems with a Sig. Failures to fire, feed, extract, RARELY happen on Sigs and they were usually fault of the operator.


Wrong! Look around and do the research and you will find many first hand accounts which contradict your statement.

Sig has had these exact issues on the P238, P220 (Milled stainless slide w/internal extractor), SP2022, Sig P250 & Mosquito etc... These are not just IO errors they are design issues with the pistols some of which have been corrected by Sig.

Storm
April 20, 2011, 11:16 AM
These are not just IO errors they are design issues with the pistols some of which have been corrected by Sig.

Very true. Look at the SIG P250. If you compare the 1st Gen guns to the ones being produced today the gun has pretty much gone through a a complete overhaul.

I'm not quite sure when it became anywhere near to acceptable to put out a gun and expect your customers to be beta testers. Yes, I know that other companies have done it, but other companies aren't SIG. There seems to be a rush to get a gun to market. In certain cases this is where SIG has shot themselves in the foot. Even when a gun is eventually straightened out (as in the P250) the stink of an early lousy reputation continues to follow it.

Get it right the first time. The motto seems to have become "To hell and back to SIG" with newer offerings.

IkenI
April 20, 2011, 11:17 AM
It's a 220-45-BSS-RG, UPC 7 98681 42815 1. Serrated strap. According to a couple of sellers it was a limited run that may have been from a canceled order. Of course, I've heard that before. There are still some out there available. Photos have shown the new thin trigger but mine came with the older standard trigger which I prefer. I like it more and more ever time I shoot it.

rellascout
April 20, 2011, 01:00 PM
It's a 220-45-BSS-RG, UPC 7 98681 42815 1. Serrated strap. According to a couple of sellers it was a limited run that may have been from a canceled order. Of course, I've heard that before. There are still some out there available. Photos have shown the new thin trigger but mine came with the older standard trigger which I prefer. I like it more and more ever time I shoot it.

I bet they found some old frames and built these on them.

the_skunk
April 20, 2011, 01:27 PM
That's the complaint, Sig used to have a small percentage of errors year in and year out. Now the numbers have blossomed. And it's not just production errors, it's the design blunders that have ruined Sig's once elite reputation for reliable function.

I suppose that's what you get when you hire Kimber's former boss. I hope they're happy.

John



I had a seecamp jamming, sent it in, and it came back perfect. Larry Seecamp designed the gun, made over 70,000, and knows every quirk (99% stems from ammo problems).

My Sig p232 was jamming every other shell, and I sent it in and no one at Sig had any idea what the problem was. $900 later the gun sits in a safe, and I refuse to spend another nickel on it.

Previously I owned a Sig 226 and it was flawless from day one. But, after the 232 fiasco, I just wouldn't buy any Sig.

gmh1013
April 20, 2011, 01:27 PM
My SP2022 and P229 have never had one problem out of thousands of rounds.
If you want to bash some auto's......dont get me started on Glocks:cuss:

JTQ
April 20, 2011, 05:39 PM
It's a 220-45-BSS-RG, UPC 7 98681 42815 1. Serrated strap. According to a couple of sellers it was a limited run that may have been from a canceled order. Of course, I've heard that before. There are still some out there available. Photos have shown the new thin trigger but mine came with the older standard trigger which I prefer. I like it more and more ever time I shoot it.
Thanks for the reply. It is a good looking pistol. That model is what it would take for me to jump on the Sig bandwagon.

ttheel
April 20, 2011, 10:28 PM
Dont know about the new ones but my German made P228 is one fine pistol. It is one I never see myself parting with.

rtz
April 21, 2011, 10:51 AM
One cannot expect absolute perfection.


H&K?



What model is that 220?


This one?

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/220_gen_2.html

the_skunk
April 25, 2011, 12:28 PM
Sig Sauer is interested in expanded sales for a stock offering. What used to be the best gun on the market is now just a commodity, with too many being rushed out the door.

wally
April 25, 2011, 01:20 PM
I have owned and fired a many Sig Sauer pistols. All of them are or were the P series in either 220, 226, 228, or 229.

I have never ran into a bad Sig pistol.

You've not shot a GSR or a P238.

My P238 has been shall we say problematic. My P226 and P220R are top notch.

Dogguy
April 25, 2011, 03:10 PM
What is different about SIGs now as opposed to the German SIGs of the 1970s and 1980s?

The Internet.

...and the fact that The Internet makes every forum member and You Tube poster an immediate "expert" on what he has to say.

rellascout
April 25, 2011, 03:16 PM
What is different about SIGs now as opposed to the German SIGs of the 1970s and 1980s?

The Internet.

...and the fact that The Internet makes every forum member and You Tube poster an immediate "expert" on what he has to say.

This is not true. Take a P226 for example. It is not the same gun it was in even in the 1990s. The construction has changed. They have cheapened the materials used to build the pistol. In the 1980s and 1990s ZERO MIM. Now you cannot name a Sig pistol without MIM parts.

Now we can debate if it matters. We can debate if they are still as reliable as they used to be. However, there is no debate that the pistols have been cheapened as far as materials and production methods are concerned. They have changed the classic P series guns to attain a higher level of economy of scale. This is a great business move for the company but great business moves are not always great for the quality of the product. The only part on a current production Exeter P226 which you can argue is made of better materials is the slide which is no longer folded carbon steel but is milled stainless. Even this is a point of debate because a lot of people like the balance on the older gun.

A great example of the changes in Sigs mentality is the SP2022 which since being brought into the US in late 2010 is now showing problems it never had when it was produced exclusively in German. Now there are reports of the 9mms needing NATO spec ammo to be broken in and there are numerous reports of feeding problems with the .357 Sig & 40 S&W. All of these issues appeared after changes to the pistol and when production moved to Exter.

Yes the internet gets info out there to more people but please do not use it as a excuse for Sigs changes.

the_skunk
April 25, 2011, 06:27 PM
A great example of the changes in Sigs mentality is the SP2022 which since being brought into the US in late 2010 is now showing problems it never had when it was produced exclusively in German. Now there are reports of the 9mms needing NATO spec ammo to be broken in and there are numerous reports of feeding problems with the .357 Sig & 40 S&W

This is why guys like Larry Seecamp, and Rohrbaugh, are treasured gun manufacturers. You look at the machining, and everything is grade-A. and the factory can solve a problem.

The guys at Sig have no concept of what I am talking about. Gun factories need machinists, gun smiths, and gun owners working there.

Sheepdog1968
April 26, 2011, 02:30 PM
In general, I am cynnical of new models of any firearms by any company. Without a decade of market exposure you just don't know what the long term reliability will be of a new firearm design. It doesn't mean I won't own one, it just means I am unlikely to have it serve any role other than a social plinker.

distra
April 26, 2011, 03:38 PM
My new ultra compact P250 is running great. Nice DAO trigger, eats everything I feed it and passed my carry tests for reliability. It would be nice to get a shorter reset on the trigger, but that has nothing to do with quality. I know the P238's have had some major problems and would not think about buying a mosquito, but the other lines seem to be doing fine.

Effigy
April 26, 2011, 03:50 PM
I bought a P220 Combat (made in Exeter) late last year and it's been running great. I think the trigger is very smooth; in SA it has a stage with almost no resistance, then a clean break. Great fit and finish as well. I've put over 2000 rounds through it so far. I also bought the rimfire conversion slide, which hasn't been flawless but still good. I've put about 600 rounds of .22 through that, about 50/50 split of CCI MiniMags and Federal bulk box, and had ~20 failures (mostly FTF). Overall I'm very happy with it.

varoadking
April 26, 2011, 07:55 PM
At least buying a Taurus, you are paying 1/3 the price, and the quality is decent

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/train_wreck.jpg

SwampWolf
May 2, 2011, 06:04 PM
What is different about SIGs now as opposed to the German SIGs of the 1970s and 1980s?

The Internet.

...and the fact that The Internet makes every forum member and You Tube poster an immediate "expert" on what he has to say.

In my experience and that of my fellow officers in le as well as other SIG owners/shooters whom I know and respect, Dogguy, your assessment is very true and right on the mark. Recently made, American-manufactured SIGs (I am most acquainted with the 220s having the infamous internal extractors that internet "experts" are so fond of mocking, as well as some older models-one of my favorites being an early 220 with a mag release on the heel of the grip and the 226 models, as issued and otherwise) are every bit as good and well-made as the Old World "masterpieces" some Teutonic cultists are prone to rave about.
I can only speak to the SIG pistols that I and others have been directly familiar with and my experience, such as it is (or isn't), suggests that new SIG-made pistols are being made as well now as they have ever been (a couple or so MIM parts aside). The "Internet Experts" you referenced, whose main purpose in life seems to be to prowl cyberspace with the singular intention of demeaning American-made SIGs and who haunt these threads with contemporary SIG malice aforethought, I'm sure will be along shortly to weigh in. They just can't not. ;)

rellascout
May 2, 2011, 06:13 PM
A great example of the changes in Sigs mentality is the SP2022 which since being brought into the US in late 2010 is now showing problems it never had when it was produced exclusively in German. Now there are reports of the 9mms needing NATO spec ammo to be broken in and there are numerous reports of feeding problems with the .357 Sig & 40 S&W. All of these issues appeared after changes to the pistol and when production moved to Exter.

If it is just the internet care to address this statement directly? The SP2022 was introduced in the internet age but the reports of issues are only surfacing now.

PabloJ
May 2, 2011, 06:42 PM
The SIG 210 from Germany seems to be pretty impressive gun. It is made where craftsmen make good living consequently it costs more then something similar made in USA.
PS. If it was may in say South Carolina USA it could be sold for about $1200.

SwampWolf
May 2, 2011, 07:41 PM
PS. If it was may in say South Carolina USA it could be sold for about $1200.

This is true, PabloJ, and only if it was so. I examined a SIG 210 at the NRA Convention yesterday and two things made my knees go weak: the quality and wonderful workmanship of the pistol-and its Germanic price. :(

1858
May 2, 2011, 07:50 PM
This is not true. Take a P226 for example. It is not the same gun it was in even in the 1990s. The construction has changed. They have cheapened the materials used to build the pistol. In the 1980s and 1990s ZERO MIM. Now you cannot name a Sig pistol without MIM parts.

However, there is no debate that the pistols have been cheapened as far as materials and production methods are concerned.


I have to disagree with this. The bulk of the "classic" P series pistols haven't been cheapened at all.

Slides: Stainless steel used for the newer slides is more expensive than carbon steel and it has better corrosion resistance.

Frames: The frames are still being machined from a quality aluminum alloy and are as well made or better than they've ever been. Given that aluminum is considerably more expensive these days, it's remarkable that SIG has managed to keep the prices as low as they have.

Finish: The Nitron finish is more durable than the original blued finish.

Barrels: The barrels are still being made from high quality steel. Accuracy has been excellent based on my experience with four new SIGs.

Triggers: DA/SA triggers are significantly better than the original triggers. Also, short triggers, SRT, DAK and SAO are available.

Sights: Many pistols ship with factory three-dot night sights.

Fit and finish: Excellent based on two P220s and a P239 bought last year and a friends P220 Combat.

MIM: There are only a few MIM parts in SIGs (three or four) and so far I haven't heard about or witnessed issues with those parts.

Reliability: I've owned and shot SIGs for about 20 years and the new SIGs (P220 and P239) are just as reliable as my older all German SIGs.


I'll admit that I'm not a fan of MIM parts, but that's due to my own prejudice and if I could change them for quality steel parts I would. This is what I did on my Kimber TEII because I could.

I don't know a damn thing about all of these "newer" models that SIG produces such as the P238, P250, P290, SP2022 and Mosquito and frankly, I have no interest in any of them. What I do know about are the P220, P225, P226, P229, P232 and P239 models. Current P220s and the P239 are excellent pistols and well worth the price of admission. I can't comment on the newer P226, P229 or P232 models because I haven't bought or shot any. Based on my experience, I wouldn't hesitate in recommending either a P220 or P239 to anyone looking for a well made and reliable pistol.

rellascout
May 2, 2011, 08:43 PM
I don't know a damn thing about all of these "newer" models that SIG produces such as the P238, P250, P290, SP2022 and Mosquito and frankly, I have no interest in any of them. What I do know about are the P220, P225, P226, P229, P232 and P239 models. Current P220s and the P239 are excellent pistols and well worth the price of admission. I can't comment on the newer P226, P229 or P232 models because I haven't bought or shot any. Based on my experience, I wouldn't hesitate in recommending either a P220 or P239 to anyone looking for a well made and reliable pistol.

What was the name of that Meatloaf song.... 2 out of 3 Ain't Bad. In Sigs case 2 out of 5 ain't bad... LOL

Again it is not the Sig is a horrible pistol. They are not. What they are is expensive for a product that is not as good as it used to be IMHO. They are still very good pistols. You make some nice points and except for the MIM, Trigger and reliability across the board I agree.

You cannot discount the newer pistols because they make up a high percentage of their total sales. I would estimate the "new guns" when you include contract sales make up more than 40% of their sales. P250, SP2022, P238 etc...

I agree 100% that the Classic P series including the new guns like the P239 and P229 which have been US origin guns for a long time are you best bets. Most will run out of the box with a high level of combat accuracy.

I just do not think they are of the same quality as they used to be. YMMV

gudel
May 2, 2011, 08:46 PM
When posting quality issues thread you should have pictures, anything less it's a fact less bashing.

1858
May 2, 2011, 09:02 PM
rellascout, it would be interesting to see if SIG's profit margins are higher today than they were some twenty years ago. I'm sure that their profit margins vary depending on the model, but I'm surprised that with the cost of raw materials, labor, inflation, etc that I can buy a P220 today for around $700. That's not much more than I paid for my P220 in '93.

rellascout
May 2, 2011, 09:27 PM
When posting quality issues thread you should have pictures, anything less it's a fact less bashing.

Not when you owned the pistol which was defective.

rellascout
May 2, 2011, 09:36 PM
rellascout, it would be interesting to see if SIG's profit margins are higher today than they were some twenty years ago. I'm sure that their profit margins vary depending on the model, but I'm surprised that with the cost of raw materials, labor, inflation, etc that I can buy a P220 today for around $700. That's not much more than I paid for my P220 in '93.

I am going to guess higher when you consider that the P220 does not constitute the bulk of their sales. Newer cheaper guns are what Sig sells the most of.

I agree with you Sig is not a horrible choice at $700 but the ones I see at $700 always seem to be the less desirable configurations. Seems like the Plain Jane DA/SA Rail is a $765+ Transfer gun. Which still puts it within reach at $775.

I guess I just think a W. German LNIB is a better deal at $500 + $30 Shipping and transfer.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=227218740

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/227218000/227218740/pix485627769.jpg

JohnBT
May 3, 2011, 08:22 AM
I finally bought a Sig after decades of hearing about them and shooting a few. I bought a German made X-5 TAC TB. Then I found out about the extractor problems with many of the guns. Oh well, I can afford a little impulse buy once in awhile.

So you can call me a basher if you like, but you'd be wrong. The facts speak for themselves and the number of problems are way up. And that's way up since the invention of the internet. There weren't a steady stream of Sig complaints when I started talking guns on the web in the 20th century. Now it's 2011 and there are constant complaints.

When a man like Bruce Gray invests a great deal of time and money redesigning an extractor that Sig should be redesigning and replacing for free, well, there is a problem with Sig... I vote for the ex-head of Kimber who is running Sig.

Fool me once, etc. Screw 'em.

John

HOWARD J
May 3, 2011, 01:16 PM
I have a P-238-fired about 400 rds of handloads.
Pistol works quite well--no problems

1858
May 3, 2011, 03:08 PM
I bought a German made X-5 TAC TB ... I vote for the ex-head of Kimber who is running Sig.

Isn't the X-5 a German designed and manufactured pistol? I guess the Germans can screw things up too.

JohnBT
May 3, 2011, 04:11 PM
The X-5 guns are made in Germany. But it has a stainless slide and not the older folded slide, so who knows who designed it or in which country or when.

It's still a freaking Sig and says P226S on the slide. Who knew Sig could screw up the 226.

JohnBT
May 3, 2011, 04:12 PM
www.sigsauer.com/aboutus/ManagementDetails.aspx?BioId=2

"He was named President and Chief Executive Officer on April 1, 2005.

Prior to joining the company, Mr. Cohen served as General Manager of Kimber Manufacturing, since its inception on the East Coast in 1996."

stevolene
May 4, 2011, 04:10 AM
ya know Im relatively new to handguns myself, but when I was shopping around for a new 9mm I looked at the sig's, they did feel and look a bit cheezy in the price range I was looking at anyway, which was the 300 to 450 range. I wanted a gun that had an exposed hammer so the glocks were out, plus 99% of them were out of my price range, I ended up with another ruger, a P95, decent gun, reliable, never jams, but too big to carry, now Im looking for a smaller gun

the_skunk
May 4, 2011, 06:00 PM
As I have run into different problems with my guns, and got sick of sending them back to the factory, I started doing my own repairs.

The gun to buy in the 380 blowback series in a Makarov, preferablly a German, or Bulgarian. Craftsmanship versus CNC.

RP88
May 6, 2011, 01:51 PM
I think the Sig-bashing is based off of the "lasting impression" dilemna seen in the first line of designs. Beretta and Glock and Sig and many others have proven that a good first impression really helps, and that these impressions are most evident in adoption and testing of legit agencies and organizations.

For example:
Sig gains great popularity because it still performed will in the 80's trials and because everyone used them with the P series. Then, they break into other niches and, either because of bad first runs (SP2009, P250) or crappy marketing (SP2022), basically screw up their own potential. Then, there is their refusal to be price-competitive in their P series, so people just buy them used, making Sig lose to its own market share.

Is Sig a bad company now? No. Did they take some dumb risks in testing and marketing, or in some cases not enough? Definitely.

Also, the MIM bashing is pointless; MIM can be of equal or even greater quality for less. Unless Seecamp brought the Kimber Curse with him, it should not really matter other than for pointing out Sig's market snobbishness.

G.barnes
May 6, 2011, 04:27 PM
I think one of the worst things sig did was come out with the p250. It is designed to be four different calibers in one frame. You can't build something to exact tolerances when each caliber has different one so it messes up the finished product. They also rushed the p238 out to soon and it bit them. Although they did make good for anyone who got a lemon.

It's not whether or not there are some problems but how many problem guns there are. I don't think that sig has that much higher percentage than they use to I think they are putting out more and more guns so there will be more problem ones.

rellascout
May 6, 2011, 06:14 PM
Also, the MIM bashing is pointless; MIM can be of equal or even greater quality for less. Unless Seecamp brought the Kimber Curse with him, it should not really matter other than for pointing out Sig's market snobbishness.

I agree MIM can be good at a lower price than other methods. I disagree that Kimber is not relevant. Kimber cheapened the MIM production process to the point of failure. Kimber is also king of 1000 different models of basically the same gun. Sig is now running that playbook. Kimber is very relevant IMHO.

bsg
May 7, 2011, 02:31 AM
Dont know about the new ones but my German made P228 is one fine pistol. It is one I never see myself parting with.
yes it is, and no you won't.

silversport
May 7, 2011, 08:04 AM
I agree MIM can be good at a lower price than other methods. I disagree that Kimber is not relevant. Kimber cheapened the MIM production process to the point of failure. Kimber is also king of 1000 different models of basically the same gun. Sig is now running that playbook. Kimber is very relevant IMHO.
exactly...
Bill

IkenI
May 7, 2011, 10:28 AM
All I can speak of is my experience with SIGs and that is only with the classic P series as I have no desire to own any of the others. I have 5 SIGs...a German P220; a SAS P220 DAK with internal extractor; a 2010 production P220 Compact SAS2; a 2011 production P220 (no rail, no tail); and a P229 SAS2 DAK. All get shot lots! The 2010 and 2011 frames were made in the US. I have owned other P220s, a P239 and a P226. They were all good but just didn't fit my needs. I have not had any problem with the internal extractor on the SAS. If I ever do, I'll take care of it then. The fit and finish on the newer guns is every bit as good as the older. The best triggers of the bunch are my 2010 and 2011 guns. I've been shooting SIGs for many years and have never had a problem with any of them. So, for me, they are what they are. I also own newer and older Smiths and other handguns. I agree that the internet provides a perfect opportunity for bashing anything so most of what I hear doesn't bother me in the least.

RP88
May 7, 2011, 01:18 PM
I agree MIM can be good at a lower price than other methods. I disagree that Kimber is not relevant. Kimber cheapened the MIM production process to the point of failure. Kimber is also king of 1000 different models of basically the same gun. Sig is now running that playbook. Kimber is very relevant IMHO.

Sig is running the playbook of cheapening production (with MIM, for example) on their guns, yet not bringing the price down to: 1) compete in the market of not only their own used guns but against other companies that have taken a hint; and 2) reflect the new value of what the market is getting out of their new production for more profit. Sadly enough, a lot of people are doing this, or likely will. And, because of it, there will always be more and more guns to come to undercut them for it.

Kimber's playbook was to be the first people to make a semi-custom 1911, then flood the market with them before anyone else could. Then, they sat on their contracts, let their CS and QC go so far down that Century was probably better than them in those respects, and lived off of their name alone, while maybe coming out with new accessories for the same gun over and over. One could call it the Kimber playbook if Colt hadn't have been doing it for the past 20 years first.

I will agree that Sig is pricing themselves out of the market, for sure. I would not pay $800-900 for a P226 when my gunbroker watchlist has about 20 of those from Exeter and W. Germany under the $450 mark in LNIB condition.

However, their P250 and SP2022 are very good guns for very good prices (at least now, since the SP2022 is better AND cheaper than before it got discontinued at first, and since the P250 is priced at what it is actually worth). And even if it isn't worth the money new nowadays, the P series is still a great platform to get into. I think that is enough to keep Sig from being written off as 'bad' in today's market, although they have admittedly missed the mark on a few things.

Thankfully though, I buy into guns, not brands. I'd buy from Sig in a heartbeat, but I definitely have certain admonishment in doing so, like I do everyone else, in what I do and don't buy from them.

1858
May 7, 2011, 05:14 PM
Sig is running the playbook of cheapening production (with MIM, for example) on their guns, yet not bringing the price down to: 1) compete in the market of not only their own used guns but against other companies that have taken a hint

OK .. now let's get back to the real world. How does the use of three or four small MIM parts that haven't been proven to be a problem amount to the "cheapening of production". How do those small parts offset the increased costs of raw materials such as stainless steel, steel and aluminum? Now add in the increased cost of shipping, fuel and labor and then adjust for inflation. It's ridiculous to suggest that SIG should lower the cost of new production pistols manufactured at current costs so that they're competitively priced compared to older production models. Who the heck does that and stays in business? Perhaps you can provide some examples.

KingMedicine
May 7, 2011, 08:03 PM
Every Sig i have owned has been a solid shooter (mind you, they have all been West Germans)..

Every taurus i have owned has not functioned reliable. Or they have spot brass across my face every shot.

Ill stick with Sig.

RP88
May 8, 2011, 12:16 AM
How does the use of three or four small MIM parts that haven't been proven to be a problem amount to the "cheapening of production"

Do you have source that they only use 3-4 parts? There are a lot of parts on a gun that can be made from MIM. Also, if I recall correctly, the slide is much easier to make and finish on CNC than on their whole mill-finishing machining they did before '96. And as for gas costs...Sig Sauer is in New Hampshire now, too. No overseas or import tax and other things to pass onto the consumer.

Those are a few ideas I have on why a Sig should not cost as much as they do nowadays as far as the P-series goes.

1858
May 8, 2011, 01:44 AM
Do you have source that they only use 3-4 parts?

Yes, www.grayguns.com . I spoke with them directly when I ordered two triggers and asked them which parts are MIM. They listed three parts that are MIM and one that might be.

9mmepiphany
May 8, 2011, 02:03 AM
Do you have source that they only use 3-4 parts?
The ones that come immediately to mind are the trigger and the external extractor. My next guesses would be the magazine release and the hammer.

Did you have some others in mind?

the_skunk
May 8, 2011, 02:47 PM
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/228694000/228694508/pix280965612.jpg

You can get a Browning HP for $750. That is one of the accurate and reliable guns ever made.

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