.22 rifle w/ velocitators vs small cal handgun ballistics


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MrWesson
April 15, 2011, 05:17 PM
First off I personally have no need for a HD .22

I was reading a thread about .22 for defense and I got to thinking how would the best performing .22 round(IMO velocitors) perform against other calibers.

Clearly rimfire is not as reliable as centerfire but out of the 1000's of cci rounds I have fired I have found it to be incredibly reliable.

.22 velocitor 40grain 1435fps and have 191ft lbs of energy, ~11-12in penetration and ~.35 expansion.

A few examples of .380 and .32 acp
.32 acp on average ~ less than 10in penetration and around .40 expansion. Of course better ammo is available and I have seen up to .50 expansion with less penetration.

.380 Rem. Golden Saber 102gr.JHP 925fps 194ft lbs .41 expansion 9.4" penetration

The best .380 on the chart
Cor-Bon +P 90gr 1041fps 217ft lb 9" penetration (no expansion data/Probably close to .5)

I know comparing a small pistol to a rifle is not fair but the point being using a .380 for defense is deemed adequate while .22 rifles for HD are ridiculed.

What are your thoughts?

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hirundo82
April 15, 2011, 05:23 PM
I know comparing a small pistol to a rifle is not fair but the point being using a .380 for defense is deemed adequate while .22 rifles for HD are ridiculed.

Part of it is that, while small handgun cartridges aren't ideal for self defense, the guns they are chambered in are so easy to carry you are more likely to have it when you need it.

For home defense size isn't a consideration, so why not choose something more effective?

rcmodel
April 15, 2011, 05:26 PM
Were I a bad guy, I don't believe I would want to be shot with either of them.

Were I a little old lady with a 10/22 I had shot rats in the barn with since 1970, I pity the fool that gets in front of it while intending to do me harm.

Velocitor or Super-X solids wouldn't make any difference.

rc

mustang_steve
April 15, 2011, 05:27 PM
The penetration number is due to the smaller projectile having a greater focus of energy delivery.

100ft/lbs delivered in a 1x1" area is going to be about 100psi of force. Now in 2x2" area it's about 25psi of force (as the force is split amongst 400% the surface). This makes a massive difference in penetration.

This is why if you want to use a low-powered gun for recoil purposes you have to decide between a shallow semi-typical profile or a deep pencil thick wound profile.

Also factor in the heavier round in the .32..that means it's less effected by resistance than the lighter .22 round, thus maintains it's energy better...thus the penetration it has at all.

MrWesson
April 15, 2011, 07:13 PM
The penetration number is due to the smaller projectile having a greater focus of energy delivery.

100ft/lbs delivered in a 1x1" area is going to be about 100psi of force. Now in 2x2" area it's about 25psi of force (as the force is split amongst 400% the surface). This makes a massive difference in penetration.

This is why if you want to use a low-powered gun for recoil purposes you have to decide between a shallow semi-typical profile or a deep pencil thick wound profile.

Also factor in the heavier round in the .32..that means it's less effected by resistance than the lighter .22 round, thus maintains it's energy better...thus the penetration it has at all.

The velocitors have nearly 200ft lb of energy not 100.

If the .22 expands to nearly the same size as the .32(veloictors expand to ~.35) how is the impact point smaller than the .32?

Part of it is that, while small handgun cartridges aren't ideal for self defense, the guns they are chambered in are so easy to carry you are more likely to have it when you need it.

For home defense size isn't a consideration, so why not choose something more effective?

I get that but maybe that person only can afford one gun or they bought a .22 rifle first(I did) and have to wait awhile before buying another.

mshootnit
April 15, 2011, 07:24 PM
I am assuming you mean Velocitor not Velocitator. Having seen a person shot with a 22 high velocity cartridge in the neck I think I will pass on self defense with that one.

Do you mean business? If so you better chose something a little more serious.

ssyoumans
April 15, 2011, 07:31 PM
FYI, I don't think you can get even close to 1460fps. Out of my M&P 15-22 and Marlin 22" 25N bolt action, I only get 1280fps for 146 ft-lbs. I was really disappointed in them.

Stingers outperformed them out of my rifles with 1553 fps and 171 ft-lbs. Perhaps less penetration.

I was going to try some of the Aguila Interceptors, same spec as the Velocitors, and see if they performed closer to spec.

Anyone else chrono'd either?

22-rimfire
April 15, 2011, 07:36 PM
I have no particular problem using a 22 rifle for home defense as long as it is reliable. A Ruger 10/22 would be darn easy to point and shoot effectively with a little practice. They are natural pointers. CCI Velocitors would be high on my list of possible choices for this purpose.

The truth is I have no particular problem using a 22 handgun for home defense or self defense if that is all you have.

Added: Not to get into a big discussion about personal defense or home defense in general, but the idea is to quickly end the fight not have to punch 10 holes with a 22 rifle with questionable or unpredictable results.

Not everyone can afford your modest typical suite of long guns; 22 rifle, 12 ga shotgun, and one centerfire such as 223-ish or something used for "deer hunting". Typically what kind of long gun you choose relates to your intended purpose and you make do with that for home defense until you are affluent enough to buy more specialized guns.

The same applies to handguns in a more limited way. You will likely not choose a 8" 44 mag revolver for home defense but you might choose one for whitetail hunting.

The issue with 22 rimfires being used for self defense is more about reliability of the cartridge to fire and anyone that buys bulk 22 ammo, you usually have some duds. Centerfire ammo is just more reliable. But many of the compact centerfire pistols aren't as reliable in functionality. Tis why I tend to start with a Glock as they are very reliable or go with revolvers where all you have to do is pull the trigger again to cycle the cylinder to the next chamber.

Choices and priorities often reflect your perceived need. If you are a hunter and have limited funds, you more than likely go with hunting type weapons and use them for home defense as needed even though that short barreled military/police style shotgun might be a better choice for home defense than the 12 ga Remington 870 with a 28" barrel.

buttrap
April 15, 2011, 07:51 PM
A .22lr sure is not my top pick but a small .22lr on you beats a .44 at home. I have not had great luck with any of the super HV .22 loads grouping as well as standard or even standard HV loads but for short range defence use thats not going to be a issue.

mustang_steve
April 16, 2011, 12:30 PM
Mr. Wesson, the 100lbs was for sake of example.

Expansion does not happen immediately upon impact, it happens over a distance. This still explains the penetration difference.

If you want small caliber defensive rounds, get a .25acp with Glasers (for surface damage), FMJ (to meet FBI penetration standards) or Hornady XTP (for a lower penetration value with a wider wound channel due to the expansion of the round). .25acp is a round designed to feed reliably in even the crappiest of pistols...so finding a reliable one is pretty much cake.

Honestly, comparing a .22lr to a .32acp is like comparing a smart car to a kia rio.

Water-Man
April 16, 2011, 12:43 PM
It's not that a .22 won't do the job. It's that a larger bullet will do it better. If you're going to use a .22, the Velocitor is one of the better rounds you can use.

MrWesson
April 16, 2011, 05:23 PM
Mr. Wesson, the 100lbs was for sake of example.

Expansion does not happen immediately upon impact, it happens over a distance. This still explains the penetration difference.

If you want small caliber defensive rounds, get a .25acp with Glasers (for surface damage), FMJ (to meet FBI penetration standards) or Hornady XTP (for a lower penetration value with a wider wound channel due to the expansion of the round). .25acp is a round designed to feed reliably in even the crappiest of pistols...so finding a reliable one is pretty much cake.

Honestly, comparing a .22lr to a .32acp is like comparing a smart car to a kia rio.

No prob and like I said I wouldnt use .22/.25 for defense(I have better guns for that) but If I only had a .22 rifle or pistol you better believe I would have them loaded with velocitors ready to go.

I am a minimum 9mm guy but just an observation from reading a thread posted by someone else.

It's not that a .22 won't do the job. It's that a larger bullet will do it better. If you're going to use a .22, the Velocitor is one of the better rounds you can use.


.223 is a small bullet too ;)

antiquus
April 16, 2011, 06:14 PM
True, but the .223 is moving at a speed that causes hydrostatic shock, and no .22lr round is going to get there. Instead, like most pistol rounds (5.7 may be the exception, but I personally don't think so) either no or very little hydrostatic effect is generated, and you have to disable using the old fashioned method of poking a hole in the target. There doesn't seem to be wide agreement on the ability of any handgun to generate hydrostatic shock.

So yes the .22 penetrates and does so very well, and I am sure unloading a full magazine of a 10/22 would render any assailant incapable and probably dead. Also, rapid fire with little recoil is nothing to be ignored, so that chance of putting a significant amount of that magazine on target is greater. In addition, the .22 would not probably over penetrate, leaving a through hole, but the bullet taking with it energy meant for the target - overpenetration is wasted energy and less effective power.

But I'd bet 90% of us here know the double tap routine taught for over 75 years now - 2 shots and evaluate the damage/move to the next target. The .22 wouldn't fit this pattern, as 2 shots aren't going to guarantee a stop unless it's a head shot or other very lucky cns hit. Well there are no guarantees for any caliber, but there are calibers that have a history of being good immediate stoppers, and they are large and powerful. without being too powerful and overpenetrating.

So all this palaver is just to say if you have to use a .22 don't worry, but empty the damn magazine. ;)

Geckgo
April 16, 2011, 07:09 PM
People actually not completely bashing the poor little .22, that's nice to see. Velocitors will definitely penetrate from a rifle, handguns the velocity drops to right at or slightly below 1000fps for them. I have even seen a couple crony tests claiming around 900, but most of what I see is right around 1000 from a pistol.

.25, .32, .380, use FMJ flat points, nuff said.

merlinfire
April 18, 2011, 10:36 AM
I've always been of the school of thought that every gunfight is a "run what you brung" affair, but if I have time to prepare, and I'm thinking about the possible ensuing court case, its easier to explain 3 shots of 9mm than 12 shots of .22LR. The newspaper article will not go into detail about the relative ft-lbs of energy difference of the sectional density of the two rounds necessitating the use of more .22 shots. It will just report that you shot him 12 times and that it seemed excessive.

I don't know if it would happen that way, but I am consciously taking all steps I can to avoid the tar-and-feather game if the worst should happen.

Hoppes Love Potion
April 18, 2011, 01:05 PM
That's why I load my .22 rifle with CCI Small Game Bullets. 12 shots seems more reasonable to the jury when you are defending your life using squirrel ammo shot from a squirrel rifle.

Apple a Day
April 18, 2011, 10:20 PM
I've played around shooting catalogues with different calibers (at 25 yards) for comparison and for fun. My nonscientific testing :

.32ACP ball from a 4.5" bbl= 680 pages average
.32ACP ball from a 20" bbl=920 pages average
9x18 95g FMJ = 700 pages
.22LR 36g HP from 6" bbl= 450 pages
.22LR 36g HP from 16" bbl= 950 pages

I'd really, really prefer a 12 gage.

Owen Sparks
April 18, 2011, 11:48 PM
Any deep puncture wound has the potential to be fatal but large game shot with a .22 tend to run off and die sometimes days later. That is why we don't use them to hunt deer. In home defense you want something that will end hostile action as soon as possible. If something is not suitable to reliably bring down a 175 pound buck, it is not reliable enough to drop dangerous crack head in the 175 pound class either, especially since this dangerous game is capable of shooting back.

merlinfire
April 19, 2011, 10:10 AM
If something is not suitable to reliably bring down a 175 pound buck, it is not reliable enough to drop dangerous crack head in the 175 pound class either, especially since this dangerous game is capable of shooting back.

Them's just the facts. I think this is a good rule of thumb.

mustang_steve
April 19, 2011, 04:57 PM
Yep, if you must have a .22 caliber rimfire round for defense, go .22WMR. The CCI Maxi-Mag HP is a heck of a round, having massive amounts of muzzle energy for it's tiny size.

Otherwise, .223 is fine as mentioned, or just say screw it all and get a 9mm carbine. It's not optimal, but nothing in this world is.

woad_yurt
April 19, 2011, 05:02 PM
I have an old Glenfield 60 and I'd pick that over any handgun I have were I forced into a fight and if it was handy. After untold thousands of rounds, it's gotten to the point where I can pretty accurately shoot that thing almost like a machine gun.

I admit that it'd be a pain to carry concealed, though....

gym
April 21, 2011, 04:23 PM
9mm, is same diameter as 380, so it's still small. Powerball 100 gr. Case and coffin closed. i think its 1375 fps. hard to beat without stepping up to a 40 or 45, 0r even a 38 which is the same diameter as a 380 and a 357 basiclly. Whe they show that little bullett next to a giant 38 or 357, you will be awarded the iron cross oh wait that's German for flying, the good guy who survived the battle with the bad guy award. Not the guy who tried to ccw a 22 ruger rifle award.

MrWesson
April 21, 2011, 04:40 PM
9mm, is same diameter as 380, so it's still small. Powerball 100 gr. Case and coffin closed. i think its 1375 fps. hard to beat without stepping up to a 40 or 45, 0r even a 38 which is the same diameter as a 380 and a 357 basiclly. Whe they show that little bullett next to a giant 38 or 357, you will be awarded the iron cross oh wait that's German for flying, the good guy who survived the battle with the bad guy award. Not the guy who tried to ccw a 22 ruger rifle award.

CCW a rifle?.. Wat u talkin bout?:confused:

deacon8
April 21, 2011, 04:56 PM
If I needed to use a gun against another person, I would rather have a .22 rifle over a little .380 (or similar) any day.

When I lived in Alaska, I knew a retired police officer that worked in Anchorage. He had been shot two different times, during two different instances--once with a .357, and once with a .22 LR. I don't recall what types of bullets were used, but the results of each was interesting to hear about. He was in a shootout when he was shot with the .357, and until the shootout was over, he hadn't even realized he was shot; he was shot in the stomach. When he was shot with the .22 LR, he was investigating a break-in. Long story short, he was shot in the chest, with the bullet entering a lung. There was no exit, but it was within only an inch or two from exiting. However, he said it knocked him down like a lightning bolt from Zeus. He woke up after the ambulance had arrived. So in his experience, the .22 was more effective at putting him down, which is something he talked about often whenever there was discussion of self-defense ammunition. Furthermore, I have always kept this story in mind because it was a true testament to the .22's validity.

I am not saying I would rather have a .22 over a .357 (though I might in some instances of self-defense). And I realize there are many factors, such as adrenaline, bullet type, etc. However, a .22 can be a completely effective self-defense round, and like I said at the beginning, I would rather have a .22 rifle over a little .380 any day (if it was feasible).

For what it's worth...

-Deacon

MrWesson
April 21, 2011, 05:46 PM
I bet if they put that .380 into his lungs he would have had the same effect.

I don't think a .22 rifle with velocitors is necessarily more effective than a .380 pistol but I do think it is as effective but I do know that I can consistently put more rounds on target with a .22 rifle than with a small CCW pistol.

gym
April 21, 2011, 07:51 PM
I'm saying that a 9mm a 380, a 38 and a 357 are all around the same diameter, if you stand them up next to each other in a court room there is no way that the 9mm is going to look overpowering. and I have never in 40 years of carrying heard anyone prefer a 22 to a 9mm powerbal, traveling at 1375fps, I just said it in a way you didn't get it. Do really think a court is going to think that a 9mm, the most carried pistol round in the world was overkill. And if you would rather get shot with a 9mm powerball,"cor-bon" than a 22 u ain'r too smart, the powerball will take you down and penetrate 12to14 inches while doubbling in size. That's why people don't carry ruger 22's for carry even with long barrels. The rest was a play on words, a 380 is a 9mm kurtz , "short in german"a 38 fires out of the same chamber as a 357, for all arguments sake they are "almost" all the same diameter with more or less powder. My powerball travelling at that rate of speed will trump your 22 round every time, and if you are going to tell me somefthing about firing from long distance, that's called murder. Once you get out of "threat " zone and the threat stops at less than 50 feet in court. You are on thin ice, and carrying a rifle even if it is a 22, a 223 is a 22 also, so are a dozen others 220 swift 245 270 etc. that's what your 22 rifle will be compared to, not the standard for ccw, the 9MM is. Using a rifle agains a pistol will lose in a court of law every time, unless you are a litle old lady and you got lucky when the bad man came in the door, and it's still tenuous. How is mr Smith, you got to have a sense of humor, Mr Wesson. A good lawyer will show that a 22 is the same diameter our troops use in combat,where a 9mm is a dtandard for most ccw handguns, see you when you get out. Your probablly a nice guy, loosen up.

MrWesson
April 21, 2011, 10:15 PM
I'm saying that a 9mm a 380, a 38 and a 357 are all around the same diameter, if you stand them up next to each other in a court room there is no way that the 9mm is going to look overpowering. and I have never in 40 years of carrying heard anyone prefer a 22 to a 9mm powerbal, traveling at 1375fps, I just said it in a way you didn't get it. Do really think a court is going to think that a 9mm, the most carried pistol round in the world was overkill. And if you would rather get shot with a 9mm powerball,"cor-bon" than a 22 u ain'r too smart, the powerball will take you down and penetrate 12to14 inches while doubbling in size. That's why people don't carry ruger 22's for carry even with long barrels. The rest was a play on words, a 380 is a 9mm kurtz , "short in german"a 38 fires out of the same chamber as a 357, for all arguments sake they are "almost" all the same diameter with more or less powder. My powerball travelling at that rate of speed will trump your 22 round every time, and if you are going to tell me somefthing about firing from long distance, that's called murder. Once you get out of "threat " zone and the threat stops at less than 50 feet in court. You are on thin ice, and carrying a rifle even if it is a 22, a 223 is a 22 also, so are a dozen others 220 swift 245 270 etc. that's what your 22 rifle will be compared to, not the standard for ccw, the 9MM is. Using a rifle agains a pistol will lose in a court of law every time, unless you are a litle old lady and you got lucky when the bad man came in the door, and it's still tenuous. How is mr Smith, you got to have a sense of humor, Mr Wesson. A good lawyer will show that a 22 is the same diameter our troops use in combat,where a 9mm is a dtandard for most ccw handguns, see you when you get out. Your probablly a nice guy, loosen up.

I honestly have trouble reading your posts because its quite a bit of info without much spacing :o. So if anything below doesn't make sense then sorry..

No one mentioned carrying a rifle its a HD situation.

No one compared .22 to a 9mm para/luger/nato.

I don't use a .22 for HD or in any other instance other than shooting paper. This thread was an observation I made reading through forums where people bash a .22 rifle to no end for HD but no one seems to criticize .32acp and .380 for defense(usually CCW but still defense).

I happen to live in a place where a good shoot is a good shoot and you wont find anyone here defending themselves over petty differences like using a rifle against a pistol/.22 vs whatever. I can shoot a home invader with a .308,30-06,10mm,.223 whatever and I would not worry for a second about it being used against me.

gym
April 21, 2011, 10:35 PM
Part of that was meant for the original poster who actually was comparing the rifle to the pistols. i should have clarified that, even though he said he wans't , that was the comparison, the 22 rifle vs the 32/380, in a hd situation., I type fast can't help it, too many things at once sometimes. He did ask what our thoughts were on one vs the others.

MrWesson
April 21, 2011, 11:28 PM
I am the OP :)

I only compared it to .32 and .380 although I typed small cal handgun ballistics the title it should just say .380,.32 and .25 as you can even find .45 in small handguns.

So far what I have gathered is that the hole created .35in vs .40-.47in in the .380 and .32 is the main difference. They all have equal or pretty close to the same energy delivered in ft lbs.

.22 creates a smaller deeper hole and the .32 and .380 create a larger shallower hole. I know there is a way other than ft lb to measure this effect but I don't know what it is called.

They both penetrate about the same(.22 more) and create pretty equal ft lb.

To everyone else we all know better options exist and everyones take on it but lets compare these if you dont mind ;).

Like I said I don't intend to use a .22 rifle for HD personally so advice otherwise is really getting tossed in the air here.

gym
April 22, 2011, 03:22 PM
noted

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