Ballistic gelatin test results : 5.7x28mm versus 45ACP baseline


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Brass Fetcher
April 16, 2011, 12:43 PM
Here is a quick analysis we did of the Elite Ammunition S4M and FN SS-195 5.7x28mm rounds (out of a FN FiveseveN handgun), with a Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok JHP as a baseline (from a Kimber with 4.0" barrel).

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Elite Ammunition S4M Kinetic Energy Performance Summary 16APR11.pdf

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FoMoGo
April 16, 2011, 01:41 PM
I dunno... depending on a bullet to yaw for its effectiveness is a bad idea for personal defense.
If, for some reason, the projectile stays in its initial plane you have small holes and not much of a would cavity.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion.


Jim

Zerodefect
April 16, 2011, 02:18 PM
I agree.

But it would be really hard, odd circumstances for a 5.7 SS195 type round not to yaw. All of its weight is in it's tail.

Vern Humphrey
April 16, 2011, 02:27 PM
Kinetic energy transferred into the ballistic gelatin has a direct correlation to the ability of a bullet to damage structures within the body of an attacking human.
Trying to be polite, I say "Bull Hockey!"

It's the hole that does the job -- most especially at handgun energy levels. The bigger and deeper the hole, the more effective it is.

Zerodefect
April 16, 2011, 03:13 PM
I'm not sure I agree with EA's conclusion. Looks like the .45 outperfomrs it by quite a margin.

But it's nice to see a 5.7 round that matches up better in jello. At least as good as 9mm anyway.

NMGonzo
April 16, 2011, 03:26 PM
five seven rounds have been proven effective

I rather make bigger holes, but that is my preference.

Shawn Dodson
April 16, 2011, 04:07 PM
There's a reason why non-expanding centerfire rifle bullets are almost universally unlawful for hunting game animals - because they produce a mild wound even when they yaw.

mokin
April 16, 2011, 10:09 PM
I don't have anyting against the 5.7 but I'd go with the .45. While interesting, theis test didn't seem absolutely conclusive that the 5.7 delivered superior performance and the money you can save on .45 ammo clearly outways the price of practicing with hundreds of round of 5.7.

DmL5
April 17, 2011, 04:41 AM
I dunno... depending on a bullet to yaw for its effectiveness is a bad idea for personal defense.Spitzer bullets, by nature, yaw in soft targets. Regardless, EA also offers 5.7x28mm hollow point bullets that expand in the same fashion as a typical pistol bullet. For example, high speed video of EA's 50-grain 5.7x28mm Pro II (testing done by Brassfetcher):

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv

Fired from the Five-seveN pistol, the Pro II penetrated and exited the calibrated gelatin block (for reference, Brassfetcher uses 16-inch blocks); the bullet is also visibly expanded as it exits the block.



There's a reason why non-expanding centerfire rifle bullets are almost universally unlawful for hunting game animals - because they produce a mild wound even when they yaw.Yaw does not contribute to the wounding process with bullet types that consistently reach a penetration depth of 10+ inches nose-forward (e.g. 7.62x39mm M43). The yaw cycle of such a bullet is not at all comparable to that of 5.7x28mm ammo types, which consistently yaw after about 2 inches of penetration, as demonstrated by any ballistic gelatin test.



the money you can save on .45 ammo clearly outways the price of practicing with hundreds of round of 5.7.Online ammo prices for .45 ACP and 5.7x28mm are very similar.

Shawn Dodson
April 17, 2011, 06:56 PM
Yaw does not contribute to the wounding process with bullet types that consistently reach a penetration depth of 10+ inches nose-forward (e.g. 7.62x39mm M43). The yaw cycle of such a bullet is not at all comparable to that of 5.7x28mm ammo types, which consistently yaw after about 2 inches of penetration, as demonstrated by any ballistic gelatin test.

One of the reasons US Army and USMC are fielding cartridges with new 5.56mm bullets is due to mild wounding effects of bullets that yaw but do not fragment (or don't fragment substantially). Either service could have simply issued M995 armor-piercing cartridges to address the problem with light barrier penetration performance, but they preferred a bullet that produced superior wounding effects than that produced by a non-deforming bullet that simply yaws in the human body (producing a temporary cavity about 6-inches in diameter - an inch larger in diameter than the 5.7x28mm bullet reported in this thread).

DmL5
April 17, 2011, 07:34 PM
One of the reasons US Army and USMC are fielding cartridges with new 5.56mm bullets is due to mild wounding effects of bullets that yaw but do not fragment (or don't fragment substantially).Again, you're interjecting bullet types with yaw cycles that are not at all comparable to those of 5.7x28mm ammo types...


http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_m855yaw.html


QUOTE: "M855 has widely-variable yaw performance, often not yawing at all through 7-8" or even 10" of tissue."


QUOTE: "These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting."



but they preferred a bullet that produced superior wounding effects than that produced by a non-deforming bullet that simply yaws in the human bodyA bullet that fragments produces more severe wounding effects than a bullet that simply yaws, yes; that goes without saying. However, a typical pistol caliber such as 9mm does not fragment, so that point is moot.

usp9
April 17, 2011, 09:43 PM
I have been, and am even more, convinced the 5.7x28 round is an excellent HD round due to it's performance and penetration characteristics. Now if only the huge muzzle flash and report, both worthy of Thor, could be reduced. ;)

Ren
April 18, 2011, 03:12 AM
While I appreciate your energy and efforts in starting this thread, sir, closed minds will remain closed.

This thread will inevitably just fuel the close-minded egotistical chair-masters of the interwebs that think mag dumps and rounds expended equates to quality training.

This thread will probably be closed and locked like all the other caliber-war threads.

The bottom line for me is, that I can place 3 USPSA A-zone hits in a TRIPLETAP at 50 FEET with a FiveseveN. This means under 1 second, as fast as possible. I can also place 6 in the A-zone from 10 feet, hands above shoulders, back facing target, under 2 seconds.

No 1911 full-powered load with anyone here can do the same. The test results show that the S4 is more lethal than the .45.

I really don't care to convince anyone here to get a FiveseveN or to switch out from their .45 caliber platforms. I shoot the .45 and shoot it well. That's not the point. The point is, that the physical mechanics and recoil characteristics of the FiveseveN, in conjunction with the S4 round, are more effective on threat than that of a 1911 .45 caliber at longer distances and under timed fire.

Again, thank you for your post, Sir. :)

0to60
April 18, 2011, 12:52 PM
I can also place 6 in the A-zone from 10 feet, hands above shoulders, back facing target, under 2 seconds.


Excuse my complete ignorance of competition shooting, but I'm trying to picture the above. Are you saying you have your back to the target and you're shooting behind you??

Sheepdog1968
April 18, 2011, 01:01 PM
There will never be a definitive answer one way over the other on the best handgun caliber (all of which pale in comparison to centerfire rifles). The best rational, for me and my preference, I heard 20 years ago while my car was broken down on the road waiting for a tow was by a LEO in Goleta, CA who was carrying a 45 "bigger bullets make bigger holes."

Catalina
April 18, 2011, 04:42 PM
Don't know much about yaw, but the wife and daughters can shoot the PS90 & FN57 accurately all day, while not choosing to shoot the AR or 1911 because "it hurts"

Helps me sleep better at night when I'm away.

Sheepdog1968
April 19, 2011, 11:29 AM
Don't know much about yaw, but the wife and daughters can shoot the PS90 & FN57 accurately all day, while not choosing to shoot the AR or 1911 because "it hurts"

Helps me sleep better at night when I'm away.
If your wife and daughters can shoot the PS90 & FN57 accurately and it doesn't hurt them (so they will practice) vs the other two hurting IMO answers the question for what they should shoot.

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