[Bruddah_Al]

OK,

we've discussed gun-friendly states. Are there any gun-friendly countries? I've heard Costa Rica is one, any others?


Al

[Dorian]

Finland and Norway?

[tiberius]

Iraqis seem to have more rights than we do. Full auto AK's seem to be widely availible. :)

[trooper]

Listen, guys... I know that most of you think you live in a country with oppressive, unsconstitutional gun laws, and I can even understand that.

But compared to many other unfortunate places YOU live in a gun-friendly country. If we had Californian gun laws over here it would be a HUGE improvement for us.

You complain about carry laws and forget that there are people like me overseas who are lucky to be able just to OWN a gun. You know, great discussions are held about how some of you taking the California CCW problems to court... I wouldn't even be able to find a lawyer for that kind of stuff because there is ZERO chance of success over here.

Yeah, you PRK subjects are indeed blessed with outstanding, generous gun laws...


Regards,

Trooper

[KRAUTGUNNER]

Nowadays Germany is one of the more "gun-friendly" countries in Old Europe.

You have to cut through miles and miles of red tape to get a firearms permit from the authorities and pay substantial fees.

But after all that pesky hassle one can buy all kinds of revolvers, semi-auto pistols with high capacity magazins, pump-action or semi-auto shotguns and all kinds of single-shot or repeating rifles.

Even semi-auto military-style rifles ("assault rifles") are legal here. The only restriction is the ban of magazins with a capacity of more than 10 rounds. Since 01.04.2003 even the most "evil" accessories like pistol grips, flash hiders and the horrible bayonet lugs are legal on semi-auto rifles.

AR-15 in pre-ban configurations are very popular with German shooters.

M1A, semi-auto SIG 550, "evilized" H&K SL-8, HK41 in .308 and .223, and even AK-47-clones are available to civilians in Germany.

Only firearms which resembles submachine-guns (military appearance AND barrel length less than 16,5" AND typical pistol calibers) of are still not permitted for sporting purposes. So alas no semi-auto H&K MP5 or UZI for us. :cuss: :banghead: :barf:

The only REALLY impossible thing in Germany is getting a CCW permit. THIS is just not going to happen in our lifetimes.

Compared to quite a lot of other european countries and even the USA, the situation is not so bad at all.

The politicians and bureaucrats hate us, but we're still alive and well! :D :cool: :neener:

[KRAUTGUNNER]

Trooper, I really don't long for gun laws california style!

No semi-auto rifles there!

Every year new restrictions.

Impending ban on .50BMG weapons.

And, and, and................. :banghead: :barf:

[trooper]

Only firearms which resemles submachine-guns (military appearance AND barrel length less than 16,5" AND typical pistol calibers) of are still not permitted for sporting purposes. So alas no semi-auto H&K MP5 or UZI for us.

Um... wrong. Oberland Arms offers different semi MP5 clones on their homepage and I don't know of any legislation that prohibits them. The trick is to make minor cosmetic changes :)

Illegal, however, are long arms that look like fully automatic military weapons AND have a barrel shorter than 42 cm AND shoot cartridges shorter than 40 mm.


Trooper

[Tamara]

There is no industrialized nation with as liberal a set of firearms laws as the US. A few benighted states here (NJ, for instance) may approach typical European levels of gun regulation, but for the most part restrictions are minimal.

(I am given to understand that in some states you actually have to go get a permission slip from the police to transact a handgun purchase, and then must take the handgun to the police so they can register it. Some states apparently also have "waiting periods" or "one gun a month" laws, but the vast majority of states have no such folderol.)

[trooper]

I see your point, my dear fellow kraut :)

But I'd rather have a few weapons which I can carry than all kinds of hardware that is confined to my gun vault and the range.

Of course it'd be neat to have both...


Trooper

[KRAUTGUNNER]

Of course it'd be neat to have both...

AMEN to THAT!!! :(

[KRAUTGUNNER]

Tamara, Switzerland and Finland still permit civilian firearms collectors to buy modern full-auto weapons.

[Tamara]

But I'd rather have a few weapons which I can carry than all kinds of hardware that is confined to my gun vault and the range.

Don't forget shooting in the back yard. That's a fun use, too... :cool:

[Tamara]

Tamara, Switzerland and Finland still permit civilian firearms collectors to buy modern full-auto weapons.

Do you reckon that the process is any more expensive or arduous than getting an SOT here?

[trooper]

Don't forget shooting in the back yard. That's a fun use, too...

Gaa, I'm SO envious... but if I shot these in my backyard I'd be down on the floor with a SWAT team kneeling on top of me in no time :(


Trooper

[MaterDei]

What about Israel and Switzerland?

[Stand_Watie]

"Materdei"

"What about Israel and Switzerland?"

It's my understanding that getting a permit to carry in Switzerland is now out in most cantons, and that it's a fairly rigourous process in Israel although they issue a lot of them for the obvious reasons. I'll bet they will quit doing that fairly quickly if they cease to have a terrorism problem though.

I think that Switzerland, and one or several of the Scandanavian countries have fairly relaxed laws about select fire and automatic weapons ownership because of the large % of adults in their version of the army reserve, but I don't believe that overall, there is another firstworld country that is as relaxed about gun ownership, and especially gun carrying by average non-criminal citizens than is the united states.

[Tamara]

...speaking of which, anybody seen mussi around here lately? :uhoh:

[M67]

Mussi was last seen around here a couple of days ago. :)

[KRAUTGUNNER]

Do you reckon that the process is any more expensive or arduous than getting an SOT here?

What is an SOT? :confused:

[Travis McGee]

Great discussion, mein Deutcher Kameraden! (Did I say that correctly? All I can do is order your fantastic beer in German! Mein Deutch ist zehr shlimm!)

Anyway, the serious questions I have concern storeage requirements and self-defense in Germany. After you go through all the red tape and purchase your firearm, are there restrictions on where you may keep it? May you simply keep it at home in a closet, loaded, or must it be in a government approved vault or safe, with the ammunition stored separately?

And if a robber breaks into your house, may you shoot him Yankee-style, or will you risk prison like Tony Martin in England if you do so?

http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/snakelogo.jpg

[Nightcrawler]

I am given to understand that in some states you actually have to go get a permission slip from the police to transact a handgun purchase, and then must take the handgun to the police so they can register it.

Did somebody say Michigan?

[Iron Mike]

In New Jersey to purchas a rifle, shotgun or ammo you must have a firearms ID card which is good for life.To purchas a handgun you must get a pistol permit for each gun and to get a pistol permit you must have the ID card :fire:

[trooper]

Great discussion, mein Deutcher Kameraden! (Did I say that correctly? All I can do is order your fantastic beer in German! Mein Deutch ist zehr shlimm!)

Anyway, the serious questions I have concern storeage requirements and self-defense in Germany. After you go through all the red tape and purchase your firearm, are there restrictions on where you may keep it? May you simply keep it at home in a closet, loaded, or must it be in a government approved vault or safe, with the ammunition stored separately?

And if a robber breaks into your house, may you shoot him Yankee-style, or will you risk prison like Tony Martin in England if you do so?


Hi Travis,

most German regulations on firearms and self-defense tend to be worse than in the US but still waaay better than in the UK.

There are restrictions on storage of guns. You have to keep them in a safe that meets a certain standard. There are different standards for long guns, handguns and ammo. It also depends on the number of guns you want to store in one safe. It is illegal to store a gun in the same safe with ammo in a matching caliber. And the general rule is that your safe's standard drops down to the standard of the place where you keep your key when you don't carry it on your body. Say you work out and put your keys in a locker at the gym... and BAAAAMMM, your gun safe has just dropped down to the safety level of your locker because (theoretically) someone could break into the locker and thus have access to your gun safe :) And since your gym locker probably doesn't meet the standards required by law you're in for a treat...

Regarding self-defense: according to the German penal code, all actions that are required to defend yourself or someone else from a present unlawful attack are allowed. However, you have to use the mildest measure that is suitable for your purpose. I think lethal force to defend property IS possible in some very rare instances when huge values are concerned. I don't know the respective verdicts right now...

If you overstep the borders of legal self-defense you can still get off the hook if you can convince the judges that you did it because you were scared to death and unable to correctly assess your situation.

The problem is of course that people tend to have different opinions about when an attack actually turns life-threatening, and which action is "suitable" to fend off a certain attack. Example: no German law enforcement agency (except for counter-terrorism/SWAT-type units who somehow are judged by different standards :banghead: ) teaches double-taps. According the training manuals the correct SOP is to fire one shot, scan, follow-up shot if necessary because they are afraid of legal problems.

BTW, a criminal breaking into your home does NOT necessarily constitute a threat to your life or health over here... If he's trying to whack you over the head with a crowbar it would be a different story, though...


Regards,

Trooper

[T.Stahl]

It is illegal to store a gun in the same safe with ammo in the matching caliber.

...unless you do it in a 'B' or higher grade safe. Then you may store your gun with the matching ammo or even loaded.

[trooper]

Hmmm... I didn't know that... are you sure? I'll have to check that :)

BTW, nice to see ya around again, T... you've been kinda quiet lately...


Regards,

Trooper

(now a civilian again :) )

[BTR]

Can you store an loaded pistol, unlocked, in your house, or carry concealed on your own property in Germany? Thanks...

[trooper]

1.) No firearm can be stored outside a safe

2.) You can carry anything you like (and legally own) both concealed and open on your property


Regards,

Trooper

[Waste of Money]

Anyone have any idea how difficult it is to get a legal handgun in Spain?

EDIT:

Just found this site: European Countries (http://www.a-armera.com/uk/regulation.htm)

[Travis McGee]

Trooper:

Thanks for the info. The best self defense legal advice I can offer may not work equally well in Germany, but it has to help: After a S-D shooting, keep repeating the mantra "I was afraid for my life." If you shoot to defend another, "I was afraid for his/her life."

Say it early and often, and repeatedly. Your mental state at the time of shooting will be part of the court proceedings, so (obviously) never say anything macho or Rambo-like. Just "I was afraid for my life."

Matt

[tiberius]

Just found this site: European Countries

Scary stuff. That's just the kind of regulations our loony antis would like to foist on us.

[VeT|Us]

Im a Norwegian, so here's an insider ;)

To be able to buy shotguns and rifles you have to take a hunter-class. This costs a fee, and takes 30 hours. It is insanely easy, and I slept through all mine. :D

After that, you go the police, pay even more fees, and can apply for a firearm licens, up to 5 firearms per 1 fee.
E.g: Rem 870 for Rabbit, another 870 stainless for waterfowl, Ruger Mini-14 for deer, and a Rem 700 for elk.

You can own weapons like stated above from you are 16 years, with your parents permit.

To be able to buy military style rifles like AR15, AUG, SIG SG551 SWAT, etc, you have to be a member of an IPSC club, and be atleast 18.

To buy handguns, you must be a member of a shootingclub that uses handguns, and must be atleast 21. You must also be an active shooter for 6 months prior to getting any licenses.

And then:
We cant get CCW's, the government outlawed the use of LEAD in shotgun-cartridges, making the price go way up. They'll outlaw lead in bullets soon I predict. There is also a new law pending, making 6 weapons the max you can own, for hunters, without documenting special needs.

In addition, the law now states that you can get a license for something, if you dont have anything that SUITS that need particularly.
E.g: You have a Rem700 for elk, but want a Mini-14 for Deer.
Right now, thats all good.
But, now the law may be changed, so that if you have a weapon that can LEGALLY be used for a purpose, you dont get another gun. So, if you have a Rem700, you are legally allowed to take deer, and wouldnt get the Mini-14. Understand?

Sorry for the long post.
Makes me mad too se my countrymen get disarmed.

[Mark Tyson]

It's always good to hear from our overseas brothers-in-arms.

Mini 14 for deer? The 223 is a little on the light side for deer, isn't it?

Anyway,it sounds as if many countries are actually better than the US from a standpoint of a collector or recreational shooter. If you like to collect miiltary style firearms Germany, Finland and Norway and Switzerland might not be so bad. But from the standpoint of someone who feels the need to carry guns to protect themselves the US seems better.

Certain ridiculous laws in the US have led to this unfortunate situation, which we must remedy if at all possible. If the AWB dies as it ought to this year I think we can challenge the '89 import ban on the grounds of equal protection. It makes utterly no sense to ban one gun because it is made overseas while an identical gun, made in the US is legal.

[VeT|Us]

Yeah it may be a little small, but the point is to get the Mini-14, not to hunt deer with it, if you know what I mean ;)
I can think of better tools for deerhunting than a Mini-14 :p

As for collectors, there has been some big new restrictions now.
It used to be much easier, but now, people that collect e.g 'Modern assault rifles', 'WW2 weapons', or 'Weapons used by Norgwegian Armed Forces' wont get a license for them.

They have all the right in the world, but they wont.
This is because newer firearms no longer will be permitted for collectors anymore, as they are now much more dangerous for us to own than before, or something :rolleyes:

:banghead:

Again, its all part of a disarmament of the people here.

[Suomipoika]

Finland isn't the most gun friendly country, but:

- When you are 16 you can buy a gun if your parrents allow

- You must have good reason fof havin a gun (self-defence is not a reason here, hunting and target shooting etc. are)

- you cant buy special ammo (AP, I, HE etc.) even the Hollowpoint require a permit from police.
trakcers are allowed without a permit.
- You may not always get a permission for "powerful" hand gun, like .357mag, byt you easily get a .22lr

[KRAUTGUNNER]

Thoeretically it is legal in Germany to carry loaded firearms on your real estate, especially your house and garden. The law says YES to that, but you cannot exercise that right.

If some leftist, socialist, tree-hugging goody soccer mom sees you patrolling your garden with an AR-15 , a .44 Mag revolver and a Gerber knife, she'll call the police and cry blue murder about terrorists, amok runners and that she's soooooooooo horribly scared. Then a bunch of SEK stormtroopers (in the USA those boys are called SWAT) will arrive and take you to jail or the loony bin. Then some government shrink will state, that you are mentally deranged and unfit for further responsible firearms ownership. Your weapons will be confiscated.



:banghead: :cuss: :barf: :barf: :barf:

[Balog]

Does anyone have a site that explains Switzerlands gun laws? I know all of the American states have their laws listed on a website, do the cantons have something similar I could check?

[Cosmoline]

The US as a whole, that is the federal gov'ment, still has by far the best gun laws on the planet. The restrictions are annoying, but it's still possible for a free state to allow nearly unrestricted firearm ownership. In AK I can buy an array of small arms with only the Brady check and then basically keep them and carry them in any number of ways that would land me in prison in most European states. There is basically no government oversight unless I do something criminal with the firearms. Nobody has a record of what I own, and nobody can inspect how I keep them.

Israel's laws are fairly strict, and unfortunately Euro-style leftists still have a death grip on much of the civil service over there. So the person who's approving your applications isn't going to be friendly. But like one fellow said, when the SHTF over there you won't need to worry about gun laws. Just snag a rifle off a corpse in the street.

Swiss gun laws are under attack by the same cadre of Euro leftists.

Plus, we have a vibrant lawful gun culture in the US. In most foreign nature there either is no lawful gun culture or it's in hiding. I've lost count of the number of foreigners who have been abjectly shocked to hear me discuss my firearms on a public forum. It upsets them deeply, which pleases me no end :neener:

[trooper]

If some leftist, socialist, tree-hugging goody soccer mom sees you patrolling your garden with an AR-15 , a .44 Mag revolver and a Gerber knife, she'll call the police and cry blue murder about terrorists, amok runners and that she's soooooooooo horribly scared. Then a bunch of SEK stormtroopers (in the USA those boys are called SWAT) will arrive and take you to jail or the loony bin. Then some government shrink will state, that you are mentally deranged and unfit for further responsible firearms ownership. Your weapons will be confiscated.

Duh, you're SO pessimistic... :D

If you have enough patience, guts and a good insurance you can take it to court. And you'll most likely win. But it probably would take years.


Trooper

[Baba Louie]

http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/gunown.html
Balog,
Only in the generic sense... still looking for "Cantonese" laws, etc but since I don't sprechen der Sviss, I'm SOL