[ProCharger]

To make a long story short it might be a while before I make a purchase (tax return $$$) but I want to start doing the research now as well as getting facts straight. I am looking for a post-ban rifle in .223 cal such as a bushmaster or armalite (pretty much anything in that style of carbine) that is in fact a quality rifle. Does not have to be a carbine to be honest.....but no barrels over 20". I know there are a ton of them out there but give me your opinions on whats good, whats not. I have looked at DPMS, Olympic arms, armalite, bushmaster, eagle arms, ect. and I have no clue as to which carry the best quality. What are some features that I want to look for/make sure the gun has? I do want open sights to start off with so a flat top is probably not going to be my first choice. In the future I do plan on adding a scope.....are these guns designed like the AK's in that they have a scope rail on the side of the gun itself? I am planning on spending 800$ firm. Thank in advance for the replies.......

Brett

[KW]

Well you really can't got wrong with Armalite, Bushmaster or Colt. In terms of quality it's probably just luck of the draw between the three - all are known to be very good. You want to make sure you are getting a chome lined barrel. If you do plan on getting a scope down the road, I would get a flattop with the removeable carry handle - when you want to put optics on it you will be much happier with the flattop and the removeable carry handle works just like the fixed sights. My top choice of the carbines out there right now would be Colt's MT6400 primarily because it has a 1/7" twist rate barrel, and all the M4 looks and goodies.

[ProCharger]

Do they make an adjustable rear sight version for the removable carry handles? Also do the barrels that are 1/7" last as long as the 1/9"?

[KW]

The removeable carry handles have the same A2 sights as the fixed carry handles, with a slightly different elevation adjustment wheel (only adjusts up to 600 yards as opposed to 800 on the fixed). My understanding is that the 1/7 won't last as long as a 1/9 but I've never seen any actual numbers on what the difference would be.

[Zak Smith]

For a first-time AR-15 buyer, I have the following advice:

1. Get one with a "good" trigger from the factory. This generally means a "match" or "national match" trigger. I know that Rock River sells new rifles with good two-stages triggers. A good trigger makes a big difference in the accuracy you'll be able to get from the rifle.

2. A 20" barrel will provide more velocity and longer sight radius when shooting iron sights. It will have less apparent recoil.

3. Get a flat-top receiver, not a carry handle. This will allow you to point a scope, red-dot, ACOG, or iron sights as you wish. Having a front sight post (A2-style) will not conflict with scope usage.

4. There's no need for a bull barrel. "Hbar" is definitely enough.

5. If you want to shoot bullets heavier than 69gr, you will want a 1-in-8" or 1-in-7" twist. The most common is 1-in-9" which is good for 69gr and below. The cheap surplus ammo is almost always 55gr.

-z

[dbshabo]

What Zak said is good advice. Although I don't agree that you need to buy a rifle using the trigger as a major basis in your decision. An aftermarket trigger is easy to put into any mil-spec lower. If you forsee ever using this rifle in a defensive capacity you don't want a target/match trigger anyway. Better to practice and perfect the use of the factory trigger.

If you want closest to the military M16 as you can get in a civilian AR, meaning closest to mil-spec, Bushmaster and Colt are the only choices. Otherwise Armalite, Rock River Arms, and DPMS are all good quality rifles. If you want to save some $$ get a kit from J&T or Model 1. You can build a good quality target AR, it's easy to do, from a kit from these companies. If you buy a rifle that is already built you pay an extra federal tax. It's included in the price so you won't see it on the receit.

Shabo

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What are some features that I want to look for/make sure the gun has? I do want open sights to start off with so a flat top is probably not going to be my first choice.

Go ahead and buy the flattop, you can choose from a huge array of rear iron sights that mount to the flattop. Anywhere from a fixed adjustable A2 sight with no carry handle, to a simple folding backup iron sight, to a detachable carry handle to M14 National Match sights.

As far as the brands go, most of them make quality equipment and almost all of them stand behind their product; but there is a difference in the various brands. The tricky thing about an AR is that you can cut costs in a thousand different places and each one makes the rifle a little less resistant to abuse; but will likely never be discovered by anyone shooting less than several thousand rounds per year.

I have looked at DPMS, Olympic arms, armalite, bushmaster, eagle arms, ect. and I have no clue as to which carry the best quality.

All of those are good companies that will stand behind their product. That is the most important thing as everyone of those companies has put out a dud at some time.

Having said that, I've owned two of those brands and at least fired/been in matches/classes with some of the rest. In order of failures I've seen I'd rank them Bushmaster, Armalite/Eagle, Olympic and DPMS. You might also consider Rock River Arms. Bushmaster stays more closely to military specifications than the other companies. DPMS and Olympic offer a lot more variety; but there can also be noticeable differences in quality and reliability from product line to product line.

Kit guns and kit houses can be educational; but I wouldn't go that route unless you are looking for an education or economy first and a reliable rifle second. You can certainly get a reliable rifle out of one; but the odds are much better with the companies listed above if your budget can take it.

I am planning on spending 800$ firm.

Does that include accessories, mags, etc?

[ProCharger]

The 800$ looks like it might end up growing a bit larger.......and as of right now I will just settle for a single magazine.

I was looking into black widow ar-15's and found they have a lifetime warranty to the original owner. Sounds like a good deal to me. Heres some I have been considering....http://www.blackwidowweapons.com/wasp2.html ........Looks like a decent rifle, and I would get it with the harris bi-pod. Or http://www.blackwidowweapons.com/wasp4.html with the bipod as well on the M4 version.

Another feature I really like about the rifles from black widow is they pay for the transfer fee to my FFL, as well as shipping included in the price. Seems the more that I look the more money I am going to end up spending. Guess I will have to settle for a hit on the pocket book ;)

What do you guys think of the rifles listed above?

Brett

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Never heard of the company before... I'm not saying that is good or bad; but personally, I don't really see the point in taking a risk with a no-name company when there are already a lot of known-quality companies building ARs. Especially when they are no different than those same ARs.

However, its your money...

[Litefoot]

I personally have a Bushmaster A3. I think having a removable carry handle is the way to go. Learn to shoot first with open sights, then go for optics if you want. Murphy's Law says that optics will fail, so you should know how to shoot with the iron sights.

Get a 16" barrel. The 20" barrels are a bit more accurate and will produce more muzzle velocity than a 16" barrel, but the 16" barrel is so much more handy. I say avoid the 14.5" barrels that are pushed to 16" by a "flash supressor". They cut into the terminal performance/sight radius a little too much.

Brands? My next AR will be an RRA. I like the trigger, quality and especially the price. Note that most RRA AR's do not have chrome-lined barrels. Is that important? I hear that this makes them more accurate, but it certainly means would need to be diligent about keeping it clean.

This is all my opinion, not necessarily fact. Just take it for what it's worth.

[ProCharger]

I do plan on the detatchable carry handle now, as advised and it seems like it is definately a + now that I look at it. On the barrel length.....are the M4 versions primarily the 14.5" barrels? Also what are some other companies that have a lifetime warranty on their ar-15 rifles? Thats what really caught my eye on the black widow guns, their warranty they offer. It does not take much to change my path right now on the purchase of one of these rifles since I have no experience with them.

So far here is what I have down for what I will get. AR-15 in a RESPECTABLE manufacturer, muzzle brake, 16" barrel chrome lined bore, bi pod, removable carry handle.........with that being said what kind of price can I find on a quality AR-15......under $1000 possible? I will settle for a single clip for now as well....but plan on buying before the assault weapons ban gets more broad to include the ar-15. Thanks in advance.

Brett

[000Buck]

The last I saw the A3 Bushmasters were going for $850 at the local gunshows here, so you should be able to order one for that cheap if you dont have gunshows around you.

[Litefoot]

Brett,
I bought a like new Bushmaster A3 w/the detachable handle, hard carry case and 3 magazines for $700. It was, of course, used but in great condition. I would say that I got a decent deal. Not great, but not bad. I did do a face-to-face so it saved me FFL and shipping costs (about $50).

I'd go to www.ar15.com and visit the Equipment Exchange forum to find your rifle. There are many rifles that pop up there in the $700-750 range. And that would include multiple mags and even some ammo in some cases.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

On the barrel length.....are the M4 versions primarily the 14.5" barrels?

You will find them in both 14.5" barrels and 16" barrels. The 14.5" barrels are only legal if they have a permanently attached muzzle device that brings the length to 16".

Pros of 14.5":

1) Shorter than 16" w/ muzzle device, About 4oz. lighter and slightly more handy than 16"

Cons of 14.5"

1) Permanently attached muzzle device incompatible with some accessories and makes front sight base removal difficult
2) Reduced velocity
3) Actual w/ muzzle device length is still 16"

Also what are some other companies that have a lifetime warranty on their ar-15 rifles?

See this chart for comparison of details:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=176349

Thats what really caught my eye on the black widow guns, their warranty they offer.

Well, one thing to keep in mind is that a defunct company won't be honoring any warranties, regardless of length. I don't know anything about Black Widow; but there are 1,001 companies building ARs from parts kits. I used to work for one occasionally from 1990-1992. Not only am I ashamed of the stuff we produced (and we weren't trying to rip people off, we were the worst kind of manufacturer - the one that is ignorant and selling poor quality thinking it is hot stuff); but the company only lasted another year after I left. My experiences there are enough to make me very reluctant to deal with similar companies, even if they appear to be great guys.

So far here is what I have down for what I will get. AR-15 in a RESPECTABLE manufacturer, muzzle brake, 16" barrel chrome lined bore, bi pod, removable carry handle

See the chart I linked to; but the 16" chrome lined bore will limit your options a bunch as not many offer them. Off the top of my head, I can think of only Colt, Bushmaster and some of the Rock River Arms line.

[Richardson]

ProCharger,

Before you get the 16" barrel, do some research into terminal ballistics vs barrel length with .223 ammunition. Is this going to be primarily for defensive use? serious target shooting? plinking? SHTF? etc?...

I have a 20" upper, and I enjoy the increased sight radius and increased terminal ballistic potential, but I'd also like a 16" upper. Basically, I'm suggesting that you define your purpose better before deciding on a configuration.

Richardson

[Zak Smith]

A longer barrel (20") will have less muzzle blast and report vs. a shorter 16" or 14" barrel.

-z

[Mulliga]

Maybe a Bushie SuperLight Carbine? I tried one fo these babies out in the store and it handles better than most AR-15s. 16" barrel, roughly 6 pounds, and Bushmaster mil-spec components. Of course, it'll run ya around 900 bucks with the A3 type flattop...

[ProCharger]

I am glad I brought this up so soon before a purchase. Bartholomew....great info....thanks for the link. After looking at that chart and seeing that bushmaster and colt pretty much own the market is it safe to assume the lifetime warranty most likely would not be needed? With the 2 manufacturers listed above having most of the market I would assume parts are plentiful....or are most all parts interchangable such as trigger mechanism's? As far as the 16" barrel goes.....16" will be just fine being that it will be more of a range gun than anything else at this point in time. I have not been in or really looked into any competition stuff as I would like to become famaliar with the rifles before I go into anything like that. I really do want a muzzle brake.....But I do not want a permanant brake like the 14.5" barrels have.

I have a local gun show coming up at the end of this month and if I see anything that looks decent it is going to get heavy consideration. Thanks for the replies.

Brett

[ProCharger]

Had another quick question......I saw a few colt 6400's on some sites....the barrels on the 6400....is it a 14.5" or a 16" with brake?

[TechBrute]

Bart is known to have a tidbit or two of useful info from time to time. ;)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

After looking at that chart and seeing that bushmaster and colt pretty much own the market is it safe to assume the lifetime warranty most likely would not be needed?

On a Colt or Bushmaster product? Both companies occasionally produce lemons just like everyone else; so I wouldn't let it sit in the box unshot for a year; but if you give it a good test run (make sure and get it hot by firing several mags back to back - heat is a major enemy of reliable AR function) and you don't discover any problems, then chances are very good you will never have any problems with it.

If it works then, then it will pretty much continue to work for the rest of its life assuming you don't modify it until it malfunctions (which would void most warranties anyway).

With the 2 manufacturers listed above having most of the market I would assume parts are plentiful....or are most all parts interchangable such as trigger mechanism's?

Parts are quite plentiful. In fact, several different companies may sell parts made by the same subcontractor. ARs are designed to swap parts from one to the other without affecting function (assuming the parts are in-spec to begin with - which is not always the case). You aren't even limited to Colt or Bushmaster parts - you can use Bushmaster parts in a Colt and Armalite parts in a Bushmaster, etc.

This can also be a negative since few parts are marked. You can have a Bushmaster marked upper, lower and barrel and have the receivers filled with cheap, out-of-spec military reject parts that somebody slapped together from a kit. That is why it is sometimes a good idea to buy from a reputable dealer if you can.

I really do want a muzzle brake

Just be sure you realize that muzzle brakes work by redirecting the escaping gases - usually by redirecting them at the shooter or bystanders. This can make them appear louder to both the shooter and bystanders. The mini Y-comp is particularly reviled for this.

the barrels on the 6400....is it a 14.5" or a 16" with brake?

The 6400C definitely has a permanently attached muzzle brake. Colt lists it as 16" but doesn't say whether that includes the muzzle device or not. If it does, then it is likely 14.5" of actual barrel + muzzle device.

Bart is known to have a tidbit or two of useful info from time to time.

You know what they say about blind pigs and acorns :)

[gunmonkey]

Go take a look at Rock River Arms.
Good quality at a reasonable price.

Also might I suggest looking into getting a .22lr conversion for your AR.
Best $130 I ever spent. You can find out more here:
http://www.22lrconversions.com
They can be found on eBay, gunbroker, etc.

[Badger Arms]

GET A CHROME LINED BARREL!!!

Flattop is a good idea, but don't think that detatchable carry handle is for anything but looks. The sight works, but most people can't get their fingers in to carry the gun, and it's uncomfortable to do so.

Get a free-float barrel.

Get a short barrel. The longer barrel is great if you intend to shoot competition where bullet drop is a consideration, but the short barrel is better for anything civilian. Use varmint bullets, hollow-points, soft-points, or them plastic-tipped thingys if you have to hunt or defend yourself. These bullets are nearly perfect stoppers. The bad reports on short barrels almost always deal with full metal jacket bullets.

Chrome lining does not limit you to Bushmaster. You can get it from Rock River too. My outlook towards Bushmaster has changed in recent years. Though overpriced, they really produce a quality product. That and the fact that they are under attack now is good reason to send your business there.

[bluecowdawg]

3. Get a flat-top receiver, not a carry handle. This will allow you to point a scope, red-dot, ACOG, or iron sights as you wish. Having a front sight post (A2-style) will not conflict with scope usage.


is this true? i am also about to buy an ar. i have decided on a Bushmaster XM15 E2S A3 with a 20 inch barrel,but i was not sure if the front sight base would interfere (sp) with a scope mounted directly to the reciever rail or not. if you say it wont then i believe you but if you dont mind would you explain it to me as it really doesnt make sense to me:rolleyes: , i'm not trying to be a smartass but i never had a rifle like this and i just need to understand how these two things do not conflict with each other. i hate to be difficult but i need to know.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

i just need to understand how these two things do not conflict with each other. i hate to be difficult but i need to know.


Yes, it is true. The front sight tower will not show up in most scopes because it is inside the focal length of the scope. As long as the scope has a magnification of around 3.5x or greater, you are unlikely to see anything but the most vague shadow of the tower in your glass.

Here is a bad picture of a 3.5x TA11 mounted on a 16" HBAR with the standard front sight base. The front sight shadow is outlined in red because otherwise you wouldn't even know it was there.

http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/DoD2.jpg

[Grampa]

Lots of great information has been given so far, some that I wish I had known before my recent purchases.

My first advice, is don't do it. You'll want more, and more, and more.

That out of the way...

I don't think you'll touch a new Colt for $800. Still, that would be an excellent rifle, probably the best of the big manufacturers.

I bought my first AR used through one of the online auction sites, and got a virtually new Bushmaster 20" flattop with free floating barrel for $650 after all costs were paid. (Buying used from the Internet can be risky, but I follow common sense guidelines and do pretty well.) Then, I had to start accessorizing...

Optics. This is the flattop, varmint version with no front sight tower, which was exactly what I wanted. But, that means I needed some optics. I finally settled on a Leupold 6X 42mm, for a bit over $300. (I think we just blew by $800.) And, a mount. I bought the Armalite one piece for another close to $100. Let's not get into things like extra mags, AR15 specific cleaning equipment, and stuff like that.

Now you'd think that I'd be a happy camper, huh? But noooooo... I started seeing pics of the carbines, and ended up plopping down a bit over $400 for a flattop 16" M4 profile upper. Got a great deal on a new upper that had a RRA upper receiver, bolt, carrier and charging handle, and a Bushmaster barrel assembly. But, the scope isn't quite right for carbine, so I, for now, get the ARMS 40 flip up sight, for another $100. Still, a CompC ML2 would be nice... (You catching on, yet?)

Then I start reading AR15.com and get the bug to build my own lower receiver. So, a RRA stripped receiver and parts kit arrive for another $150. Need a couple tools, too. And of course, the VLTOR Modstock Clubfoot, another $130 with the buffer stuff. Man, that makes a NICE carbine! (Add more mags...)

Then my son sends a pic of himself carrying his A2 20" M16 in his treks through the hills of Afghanistan, and I think, "Boy, it would be nice to have a 20" A2 upper, too! Maybe I can build one." I find a used, complete A2 upper receiver for $80, and a call to Bushmaster has a 20" barrel assembly on the way. Oh, and a few more tools.

Oh, and don't forget ammo. Lots of ammo. And I reload, so I need more reloading stuff.

(Are you catching on, YET?)

[The Sensei]

You are my kinda guy...what a role model.

The way I look at it, if I don't spend the $$ on guns 'n stuff, my wife will just buy more furniture (and then I gotta get a bigger house....)

:D

S.

[bluecowdawg]

ok i think i get it now but i just have one more question for Bartholamew, what kind of rings is the scope in the picture mounted on; short ,medium,or high rise rings?

[Pheonix]

Let me ask another question. I too am looking at a Bushmaster, I am more specifically looking at the A2 (standard military version'ish).

There are several uppers I will buy over the next few years. Will the lowers wear out under normal use? If so how long should they last and are they simple to rebuild?

[go8dalejr]

I have a colt 6400c it is 14.5" barrel cost mid 900s and am totally satisfied.
It is very accurate great finish no problems in 2000+ rds. BTW colt is lifetime
warranted as well.

[TechBrute]

ok i think i get it now but i just have one more question for Bartholamew, what kind of rings is the scope in the picture mounted on; short ,medium,or high rise rings?
I don't mean to step on Bart's toes here...

The scope in the picture is a Trijicon TA11. I'm assuming it's a picture of Bart's actual scope, in which case it's mounted on an ARMS #19ACOG mount. There's no rings for the ACOG scopes. Check the Trijicon website and you'll see what I mean. There's no rings, there are just mounts.

Oh yeah, if you covet his scope (I do), you won't be able to stick to your $800 budget. :D

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Techbrute got the details of the scope right (except it is the #19S ACOG mount). That isn't sitting in rings; but its height above bore is about 2.6"-2.7". The front sight post on an AR15 is normally about 2.5"-2.6" above the bore.

Suffice to say that the front sight post sits squarely in front of the objective as this picture shows:

http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/AR15_6.jpg

There are several uppers I will buy over the next few years. Will the lowers wear out under normal use?

Lowers can wear out like any other part; but it is rare for them to wear out under normal use. In 1992, I encountered armory M16s from the National Guard that were marked XM16E1 and had the three prong flashiders still installed. This would mean that the lowers on those rifles dated from the mid-60s and had survived about 30 years of military use and opossibly even service in Vietnam (and we all know how things that Uncle Sam pays for get treated). I've also seen active duty Air Force SPs carrying lowers marked AR15 as late as 1997 - which would be rifles even older than the above mentioned rifles.