[Sulaco]

I want a rifle that I can use to hunt Whitetail deer (probably not many, if any shots past 100 yards or so), play with at the local outdoor range in the off-season (max range is 100 yards), use for a HD/MBR rifle and possibly use in long range match type stuff. I have a local gun club that does a lot of service rifle and long range rifle stuff as well as a friend who shoots service rifle at all of the places around the country. He has been trying to get me into it lately.

I was looking at the M1A from Springfield, but it seems like they are so hit and miss. I would hate to spend upwards of a grand on a rifle that doesn't at least shoot MOA or less.

Then, I started looking at the AR10 stuff from Armalite. 2 grand? *** are they thinking?

So, I am now back to square one or just using a few different rifles for each duty which I really don't want to do unless I have to.

It just seems like I ought to be able to get into a 30 caliber rifle that will do what I want reliably and for less than a downpayment on a new car!

Any help?

[Devonai]

What exactly do you mean by "service rifle" for competition? If you mean military arms, I'd say the M1 Garand or if you really want to save money, an Enfield #4 Mk1.

After using these rifles for a few years, my attitude is "why pay more?" They are utterly reliable, there are oodles of information sources and tons of spare parts. Either one can be customized and accurized, and since that can be expensive, why not start with a budget rifle?

As far as a HD weapon, the only .30 caliber rifle that I would use is an M1 Carbine. :)

[Sulaco]

See, you have just taken two things I want to do and said to use two different guns to do it. I don't want to do that if I can help it. That is the whole point of my thread.

I mean a service rifle for competition. I don't know how else to say that.

[Andrew Wyatt]

The m-1a is probably the way to go for this.

Can you shoot 1 moa from field positions?

[Devonai]

See, you have just taken two things I want to do and said to use two different guns to do it.

Okay, then, allow me to clarify my point. A .30 caliber rifle cartridge is a poor choice for HD unless you live alone and in the middle of nowhere. I would strongly recommend a shotgun or pistol caliber carbine for that role. My suggestions for .30 caliber rifles fit your other desired roles just fine.

I mean a service rifle for competition. I don't know how else to say that.

If you can't clarify what you mean, how can we make recommendations for that role? :confused:

[MatthewVanitas]

I think part of the issue is: what do you mean by "HD/MBR"?

MBR usually refers to a .30 caliber military rifle, which is generally considered incompatible with most home defense. Unless you live in a tiny house on lots of land, there's probably not a lot of situations where it's safe to go shooting .308 rounds indoors. There's either something that you don't want to shoot in the next room, or outside the house, or inside the next house, etc.

If you already have, or are going to get, a pistol or shotgun for the "when I hear a bump in the night" gun, then it's not really an issue. But "long range match type stuff" and "home defense" don't really fall into the same category. One member compared a similar request to saying "what kind of car should I get for going 150 on the highway, but that's also great for offroading up in the mountains?"

So, if you can accept "defense of the homestead or homeland" instead of actually defending your apartment with a full-power rifle, the field opens up greatly.

If you like the M1A but are short on cash, maybe an M1 as Devonai suggested. There are plenty of bolt-action service weapons in .30 caliber floating around as well. Use the search engine on this site to check out reviews of the Moisin Nagant (under $100, check out the www.mojosights.com sight upgrade for these). For affordable semi autos, there's the CETME HK-copy, and the VEPR and the Saiga are both AK variants in .308. The Saiga runs around $300 in some places. Lots of experience on this board with these weapons, all for your perusal using the "search" page. Good hunting.

[Kaylee]

M1A/M14 sounds just exactly like what you're looking for. If you nose around, you can likely find a polytech in the neighborhood of 600-700. My personal opinion is that of all those I've seen, the Springfields are the best gun for the money, but than I've not gotten to play with Armscorp rifles, and I've never seen Skunky's Springfield. :)

Now that said, a compromise rifle is just that.. a compromise. It will start feeling awful heavy if you take it stalking/hunting over hill and dale, especially if you scope it. It will overpenetrate like heck in the HD role. It won't shoot as straight as the ARs in a ODCMP match, at least without a fair amout of tinkering/babying. But it WILL be adequate (though far from ideal) in each of those roles.

-K

[ddc]

How about the troy industries SOPMOD M14 conversion?

click here (http://troyind.com/Sopmod/SOPMOD%20M-14.htm)


oops, posted before I re-read thoroughly, i.e. service rifle...
(still kinda cool anyway...)

[Zak Smith]

I've got an AR10 built by JP Enterprises in .308:

Set up for action shooting with TA11 ACOG:
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/2003-JPAR10/small/img_0102.jpg

Set up for long-range shooting with Leupold 4.5-14X M1:

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/2003-JPAR10/small/IMG_0041.jpg

I haven't fully put it through its paces yet, but it will shoot 0.7-0.8MOA groups at 220 yards, with off the shelf match ammo.

Here are the advantages I see of the AR10 platform: similar egonomics to the AR15; more variety of match triggers available (I use the 4# JP single-stage trigger); easier to accurize (no bedding); more modular; easier to mount optics; more stock length options to match ergonomics to shooter; easier to rebarrel.

'Course, it did cost about $2200 for the rifle alone.

-z

[Grump]

I would hate to spend upwards of a grand on a rifle that doesn't at least shoot MOA or less.

I'd say get the best deal you can on a used M1A. Test it with Federal Gold Medal Match. If it doesn't do 1 MOA as you wish, shim up the front of the action on top with a sliver of business card, and maybe another under where the trigger group hits the stock. If that fixes it, you'll know it would benefit from glass bedding. It's an old M1 Garand trick.

FWIW, I did just fine in Service Rifle with an M1 that shot 1.6 MOA all day long with a variety of loads. The 1.1 MOA groups were not the norm, but it held the 10 ring for me just fine, all the way out to 600 yards.

Or, you could buy a cheapie DCM-legal AR and (gasp) get a 6.5mm whatever upper for it, for deer hunting. Whazzat??-$600 for the AR and another 450 for the other upper-flat-top it for a scope? Then you'll have a sweet enough setup, a rifle and a half.

That might be better for HD, and easier to practice with than using .308 Accelerators which would be needed to _reduce_ the wall-piercing problem.

[wanderinwalker]

I mean a service rifle for competition. I don't know how else to say that.

A Service Rifle for competition almost requires a properly equiped AR-15. Whitetail hunting would be best covered by a nice, lightweight bolt gun. Plinking, anything goes. HD, not going to touch that. Long-range competition almost demands a bolt action in a 6.5mm. (Are you a reloader by chance?) FWIW, you can shoot "Service Rifle matches" with match rifles; excepting a few specific matches, there is a Match Rifle class.

So, you really need a few different rifles for what you imagine. And prices on some of this stuff can get up there. (A DCM AR should run $900-1400.)

[Atlas Shrug]

Devonai got it right in his first post.

M1 Garand - much better buy than M1A. Go the CMP route and be done with it.
(Sounds like you can afford it, so skip the Enfield step for now.)

M1 carbine IF you must have a rifle for HD (I still say Rem 870 for most)

Either way, get good training for HD. Learn from a good group of HP shooters for HP. Take your rifle in the field, shoot it, be one with it, and you'll be there.

[MiniZ]

If you want MOA out of a 30 cal semi, then you will have to fork out the cash one way or another(buy a higher end rifle outright, or tune a "rack grade" rifle to suit your reqirements). Sometimes you will get one that will do it "out of the box", but this is the exception, not the rule.

[ARperson]

M1 Garand - much better buy than M1A. Go the CMP route and be done with it.

I wondered when somebody was going to suggest this route.

I think the biggest problem with this advice post is the large discrepancy between home defense and "MBR" requirements. The two are almost polar opposites in what they're designed to do, at least IMO.

What's good for one generally makes it a poor choice for the other.

[J-Man]

Good point. If you want something for home defense get a shotgun (Mossberg is my personal favorite). An MBR requires a totally different approach....

[JShirley]

I'm going to go against popular opinion, here. (Gasp.)

I informally tested .30 Carbine. It penetrated a good deal of water, a log, a steel door, and then tunnelled deeply enough into the mud that I gave up on finding it. IIRC, it penetrated about 20"* of water before hitting the 8" diameter log. (*approx equal to 8" of gelatin)

Properly designed bullets at very high velocities penetrate less. It is entirely possible to load up your homeland defense rifle with (admittedly, more expensive) varmint or specialty ammo for home defense. Cor-Bon (http://www.corbon.com/catalog/index.php?file=catalog&uid=12665&action=catalog_productinfo&prod_pcategory=49342&pi_id=49343&clist=0,49199,49342&uid=12665), for instance, loads a 125-grain JHP that should be just about perfect for home defense, and I would bet it will penetrate significantly less than a .30 Carbine SJSP at close range.

John

[ARperson]

That may be true, but I hardly consider the .30 Carbine to be in the same class as the .308 and .30-06 and similar ilk, despite the .30 cal designation.

[John Deere]

Sulaco, an M1-A is exactly what you need, I have a "loaded" model and it gets more use than all the rest of my rifles put together. It goes to deer camp, plinking, service rifle matches, long range matches and I grab it when things go "bump" in the night (And before ya'll start yelling, I am the only person in the whole ding-dang valley, so hush!)
Springfield's QC has been spotty of late, but their warrenty and customer service is the best! If I were you, I'd get a standard with a walnut stock and never look back! That rifle will do every thing you listed just by changing ammo! And that is the strength of the M1-A, I have custom sporters,match grade AR's, bull barreled snipers, AK's etc. they are all better in their "niche" than an M1-A, but none will do it all, except the M1-A.
A good site to learn more is ( BATTLERIFLES.COM ). regards

[JShirley]

Welcome to THR, John.

John

[Sulaco]

Yeah, I keep coming back to the M-14 variant. Especially the Springfield M1A. It just seems like it will do the things I want a rifle to do.

I do not plan to use a long, heavy and powerful rifle to defend myself if someone makes the mistake of breaking into my house. But, if it is what I grab, I want to know that it will go bang wen I pull the trigger and that the bullet will go where I aim. I am not worried about other people in the area as there aren't many.

I want to be able to go to my local gun club and compete in some of the rifle competitions that they have. That is absolutely everything I know about rifle competition. I see most people using "service" type rifles, hence my question.

I like to be able to use most of my guns to hunt because I like to hunt. I kill deer with pistols, rifles and shotguns. It seems to me like any 30 caliber rifle will kill a deer. Hell, most of my deer guns are 20 caliber setups. That is not to say I would attempt to kill a deer with a .223. A .243? All the time.

I love the idea of the AR10 but it is a really expensive rifle. If I could get into an AR10 for a grand or less, I wouldn't even be posting this. ;)

[John Deere]

I think you will enjoy Hi-power shooting, I know I do. All you need to start out with is; a rifle with a sling and two mags, a piece of carpet to lay on, a spotting scope or binoculars, and about a hundred rounds of ammo.
Don't worry about your score for the first few matches. just learn the ropes, and try not to shoot youself in the foot!(smile) As a hunter, you will appreciate what you can learn from them. Offhand shooting, getting into position and shooting quickly, reading the wind, and shooting under pressure, among other things.
Be aware that a lot of the guys and gals are flat out equipment junkies, and will be happy to help you spend your money at warp speed! I'd rather spend my cash on more rifles, ammo, and out of state hunting trips, so I use a ten dollar mat, a K-mart spotting scope,and a long sleeve shirt.
If your in the Cincinnati area, I'd be happy to help you (or anyone else) get started. I shoot at the Miami Rifle and Pistol club and am easy to spot, I'll have the longest beard, the lowest score, and the biggest grin on the line! HTH

[Sulaco]

Thanks alot for the tips John and I would take you up on the offer but Ohio is a long ways from South Carolina. :)

I will let you know what I decide to do. I am frends with an ex-Vietnam era Marine who has been shooting precision rifle and all of that type stuff most of his life. He goes to a lot of the different events held at military reservations across the southeast. I am going to get with him once I get my rifle and see what it is all about.

Thanks again!

[Grump]

[I] am easy to spot, I'll have the longest beard, the lowest score, and the biggest grin on the line!
LOL! I thank heaven that there are so many of your type in our world. I've met more than a few and the world is a better place because of you'uns.

[ChiefPilot]

I love the idea of the AR10 but it is a really expensive rifle. If I could get into an AR10 for a grand or less, I wouldn't even be posting this.

Check into an AR-10 from Eagle Arms (http://www.eagle-arms.com/EagleArmsrifles.htm) ; they can be had for under $1000. They're basically the same as an Armalite AR-10, except they lack the muzzle brake and the chrome bore.

Another place to check out is Quantico Arms (http://www.quanticoarms.com/) - they have pretty reasonable prices on Armalite AR-10s, among other things.

Cheers,
Brad

[Mannlicher]

Sulaco says:I was looking at the M1A from Springfield, but it seems like they are so hit and miss. I would hate to spend upwards of a grand on a rifle that doesn't at least shoot MOA or less."

Which brings to mind, whether or not one's expectations are realistic about Main Battle Rifles. I don't think any of your normal MBR were designed to be MOA shooters. There probably are some examples of different rifles that shoot pretty good groups, but expecting to find MOA accuracy in a battle rifle is not realistic.

I am not even going to get into how many folks can really shoot that well, as opposed to those that say they can.

[Zak Smith]

JP AR10, 110 yards, 0.70 MOA
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/JPAR10/small/106_0636_img.jpg

JP AR10, 220 yards, 0.76 MOA
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/JPAR10/small/106_0637_img.jpg
(other two shots were from re-zeroing the scope on a different target)

-z

[artherd]

AR-10(T) in .300WSM.

Just don't touch it off indoors if you value the health of yourself and (any) others. (infact, get a .223 for HD. Even .30Carbine is hugely overpowered and ill siuted for that role.)

[Sven]

John Deere,

Welcome! Also surf battlerifles.com and am happy with my M1A - here in CA, the only option for new Highpower Shooters such as myself. Could shoot with a club AR-15, but... that just wouldn't be the same.

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/m1a/100_yards.jpg

1st day - No break-in
100 yards from Sandbag
Variable lighting
Triple Latte
M118LR

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/m1a/springfield_trw_krieger_before_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/m1a/springfield_trw_krieger_before.jpg)

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/m1a/receiver_close_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/m1a/receiver_close.jpg)

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/m1a/left_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/m1a/left.jpg)

I owe a lot of debt to the people here, on BattleRifles and esp. Steve Smith here for this rifle.

Steve hooked me up with the Mojo.

-

Jshirley said:

> homeland security rifle

Sounds like a product name we'll be seeing soon on the marketplace.

[carpettbaggerr]

http://troyind.com/images/Web%20black_closed.jpgNow THAT'S tactical.

For your all purpose rifle, how about one of the humble AK variants? Or possibly the Mini-30. 7.62x39 should do everything you want out to 100 yards. More suitable for home defense than .308 also.