Handgunners Inc, Graham NC


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THE DARK KNIGHT
April 25, 2011, 01:06 PM
Saw this elsewhere, and it brought up a very interesting point to me. Yes, it's private property. The guy can have whatever rules he likes. However, is this really the image/stereotype that gun owners should be reinforcing? Are there not enough people out there that think gun owner = racist hillbilly?

I went to Handgunners yesterday in Graham, NC. Pretty scary place. Before you can be buzzed into the building you have to read 4 pages of rules. These rules include things like:

"We speak English and expect you to as well. Anybody speaking any foreign language in will be removed from the premises"

"If you look like a gang member you will not be allowed in. If you have cornrows, dreadlocks, or baggy pants you will not be allowed in."

"We do not train terrorists. If you are Muslim or worship the Koran you will not be allowed in"

Once they approve you and buzz you in you have to fill out 4 pages of forms that basically say you can't shoot if you aren't legal and then have several tricks to ensure that you actually read the rules. That's understandable, but do they really need my height, weight, drivers license number, and city of birth? If it hadn't been for a friends birthday I would never jump through that many hoops to go shooting. Who knows what kind of treatment I would have gotten if my friends weren't police.

Nobody is allowed to have a loaded gun in the store other than the owner. There are tons of anti-Obama stuff all over the place. I know it's private property and I guess they can do what they want, but is this the kind of image gun owners should be maintaining?

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Dreamcast270mhz
April 25, 2011, 01:23 PM
It is ignorant Americans like him that give us the Ugly American label. I PERSONALLY feel private property or not he is inviting a lawsuit. Racist jerks like these should be in jail for discrimination. Muslims are not bad people, foreigners are not bad people and black people sporting different styles are certainly not bad people. <deleted>

hermannr
April 25, 2011, 01:38 PM
I guess I would have trouble there eh? I am white (German and Swedish), and speak English quite well (along with a couple other languages), but I talk to my wife in German frequently.

I was not born in the US, but I am a US citizen. Earned my citizenship in Vietnam. My wife's family came to New Amsterdam in 1630, I guess she would be ok though, except for speaking German on occation... :uhoh:

But you know, if the owner wants to be a donkey's behind, that is his privilage. Just as it is also my privilage not to support his attitude. :D

Water-Man
April 25, 2011, 01:49 PM
I don't have a problem with his way of thinking at all. If you don't like it, don't go there. I'm sure you can find a 'more liberal' establishment that embraces the kind of people he doesn't.

THE DARK KNIGHT
April 25, 2011, 01:51 PM
Wow, I just went to the business's website. Apparently, the poster I quoted toned things down a bit. It's worded even worse at the place:

Anyone from another country other the US is required to present their required legal documentation complete with photo granting them legal entrance into America immediately entering to the range officer. If no documentation is presented, service is then denied and the subject is instructed to leave. No exceptions.

We do not allow on our property anyone that appears or suspected to worship or is associated with any known radical jihad religion. No exceptions.

This is just flat out sad.

Out of curiosity, do they even have any Muslims in southern central rural North Carolina to discriminate against?

ZCORR Jay
April 25, 2011, 02:09 PM
It's good to see there's a business out there that is doing so well they can can turn down business.

ForumSurfer
April 25, 2011, 02:28 PM
I think I'll pass on that guy's place. His property, his rights. I'm required to respect his wishes, not agree with them.

racist hillbilly?

Don't lump all of us redneck hillbillies in there with this guy, please. :)

"We do not train terrorists. If you are Muslim or worship the Koran you will not be allowed in"

I have a friend (okay, an acquaintance) who came to this country and took great pride when he finally got his citizenship. He spent many years getting it done and going on to college. He is as American as anyone I know..Koran at home or not.

Nobody is allowed to have a loaded gun in the store other than the owner.

Reason enough all by itself for me to spend my money elsewhere. I understand why some shop owners do this, but I don't agree with it. For every shop that does this, there are 5 or 6 that don't and they will be happy to accept my money.

Nushif
April 25, 2011, 05:11 PM
I am honestly shocked. I know there is a bias ... but that's just flat out crazy!

mgregg85
April 25, 2011, 05:13 PM
Yeah, after seeing all that stuff i'd just walk away. I'm not sure if the guy is a racist but i'd be assuming that he was at that point and I will not do business with those people. Besides just disagreeing with their bigotry, they make all the decent gun owners out there look bad.

Sure its his right to be that way and to run his business as he chooses, I'd fight for his right to continue behaving that way, but I won't do any business with him. Every dollar spent there is a blow to the RKBA cause.

cambeul41
April 25, 2011, 06:00 PM
Water-Man in post #4 says,
I don't have a problem with his way of thinking at all.

Am I misunderstanding you, or do you actually agree with him/them?

hardluk1
April 25, 2011, 06:12 PM
Sounds like skin head/white supremacist type's. Maybe ATF should send some officers there that can speak differently and look different after a good ole white officer gets the door open.

Water-Man
April 25, 2011, 06:16 PM
If you want to discuss it further do so in a private message.

crazysccrmd
April 25, 2011, 06:46 PM
I'd say he's just being flat out honest and specifying exactly what or who he will allow on his property. Just a very direct way of reserving the right to refuse service if you will. Not necessarily the right thing to do, but that's America for you. You are allowed to do as you please on your private property even if other people don't like it (with some exceptions).

Would I go there? Probably not, I don't want to have to deal with that much paperwork and effort just to shoot or purchase a new gun. Could it be a source of problems, yes, but once again, we let people have the freedom to do as they choose in this country.

Tim the student
April 25, 2011, 06:55 PM
His place, his rules.

And my decision to never spend a dime in.

Guys like this are one reason I was happy to leave NC.

N.Schafer
April 25, 2011, 07:46 PM
Maybe he's just protecting himself from a lawsuit. The media would love to say "Two people murdered and the gang members learned how to shoot at Handgunners Inc."

Would be a lot worse if there was a terrorist attack and training was traced back there.

Patriotme
April 25, 2011, 08:04 PM
1) As for the owner's language requirements, I support them. A nation cannot stand without having it's citizens share a common language. People can do what they want at home, at play and at their own businesses. If another business owner wishes to put English only requirements in place at his establishment then so be it. Business owners place requirments on dress, behaviour and even whether or not you can carry on their property. I see an English only language requirement as no big deal. Perhaps he could have worded it better but it's his business. Those that don't like it can go elsewhere.
2) The statements regarding dress are also no problem. If you look like a criminal and dress like a criminal then don't be suprised if you aren't welcome in some places. I don't have a problem with dreads or cornrows but gang looking attire or baggy pants are the uniform of criminals. If you walk around in KKK gear then expect to be treated like a terrorist. If you walk around in White Supremist attire then expect to be treated like the trash that you are. You are judged by your appearance. You make an immediate first impression when walking into a room. Dress accordingly and don't get your feelings hurt if you do dress like the trash in our society. I realize that most of the "Gang" attire that young people wear is nothing but dress up for thug wannabees. Sorry, they've picked how they want to present themselves. Ask yourself, does the girl that has a mouth like a sailor and her butt hanging out of her mini skirt get treated like the women walking around in Mennonite garb?
3) I am not a fan of Islam but I believe that there are many (most actually) very good Muslims in the US. I really don't like his original posting on this subject. He should show more tolerance than that shown in Muslim nations around the globe. That's the American way.

Mags
April 25, 2011, 08:07 PM
This is why I hate rural southern areas, you get these kinds of people.
Looks like you succumbed to your own gripe. How can you fault the owner when you have an attitude like that?

Another one:Guys like this are one reason I was happy to leave NC.
See you guys are generalizing this type of behavior with a specific part of the country.

And from the OP:racist hillbilly?

So right there are 3 examples of people unknowingly doing the same thing they are complaining about. A little hypocritical huh? Maybe the pot calling the kettle black?

rellascout
April 25, 2011, 08:08 PM
1) As for the owner's language requirements, I support them. A nation cannot stand without having it's citizens share a common language. People can do what they want at home, at play and at their own businesses. If another business owner wishes to put English only requirements in place at his establishment then so be it. Business owners place requirments on dress, behaviour and even whether or not you can carry on their property. I see an English only language requirement as no big deal. Perhaps he could have worded it better but it's his business. Those that don't like it can go elsewhere.

So if I declare Urdu or Cantonese the official language of my shop you would be equally cool with that?

You do know that we do not have an official language in this country? We have now stood for almost 235 years without a required common language. Business has not suffered. We have never has a national language and I personally hope we never will.

I am not a fan of Islam but I believe that there are many (most actually) very good Muslims in the US. I really don't like his original posting on this subject. He should show more tolerance than that shown in Muslim nations around the globe. That's the American way.

I would question how much you actually know about Islam.

ants
April 25, 2011, 08:10 PM
And he has a right to make the rules in his establishment.
Even if his rules make me walk away.




The big problem I have with his thinking and his rules:

He expects me to honor and support his Second Amendment exercise,
but he won't honor or support other people in their First Amendment exercise.

That is hypocracy. The US Constitution doesn't let you pick-n-choose.

Mags
April 25, 2011, 08:12 PM
but he won't honor or support other people in their First Amendment exercise.
The Bill of Rights limits the goverment not private citizens.

Owen Sparks
April 25, 2011, 08:13 PM
You do know that we do not have an official language in this country? Never have and I personally hope we never will.

But you CAN have an official language on private property. Your recource is not to patronize that range.

rellascout
April 25, 2011, 08:18 PM
But you CAN have an official language on private property. Your recource is not to patronize that range.

I agree with that but that is not what Patriotme is advocating. He is clearly advocating a national language...

As for the owner's language requirements, I support them. A nation cannot stand without having it's citizens share a common language. People can do what they want at home, at play and at their own businesses. If another business owner wishes to put English only requirements in place at his establishment then so be it. Business owners place requirments on dress, behaviour and even whether or not you can carry on their property. I see an English only language requirement as no big deal. Perhaps he could have worded it better but it's his business. Those that don't like it can go elsewhere.

The issue with this shop is that it is open to the public and his verbiage is very close to being actionable. It is not a blanket statement of his right to refuse service but instead a declaration of who he will not serve based on race and religion.

He is very open to a civil suite. IMHO

Dreamcast270mhz
April 25, 2011, 08:29 PM
@Mags
Not necessarily a pot, maybe a stove? What I'm saying is, I hate places in which a community is all of the same mold. I can tolerate racists, as long as they don't say N-word to any person of color or other elude to their prejudice. Islam is more like Christianity than most people think. He is basically only catering to white people, just another way of saying "Whites Only" which is illegal even on private property. The NAACP and other minority organizations are sure to have him on their hitlist.

I do agree with not allowing other languages to be spoken, to a point. If the person knows english well he should use it. If he has issues with it but brings someone along to translate, it should be acceptable. I think, however if you or anyone with you is not able to speak it, don't bother because the likelihood of an american knowing another language is very low. People like this should not exist.

Patriotme
April 25, 2011, 08:31 PM
I agree with that but that is not what Patriotme is advocating. He is clearly advocating a national language...

As for the owner's language requirements, I support them. A nation cannot stand without having it's citizens share a common language. People can do what they want at home, at play and at their own businesses. If another business owner wishes to put English only requirements in place at his establishment then so be it. Business owners place requirments on dress, behaviour and even whether or not you can carry on their property. I see an English only language requirement as no big deal. Perhaps he could have worded it better but it's his business. Those that don't like it can go elsewhere.

The issue with this shop is that it is open to the public and his verbiage is very close to being actionable. It is not a blanket statement of his right to refuse service but instead a declaration of who he will not serve based on race and religion.

He is very open to a civil suite. IMHO
You are correct. I am advocating a national language. As I stated earlier, you can speak what you want at home, at play or in your own business. A nation however needs something to bind people together. Welfare is not going to do it.
I don't feel like a common language is too much to ask for. If you live here then you should learn English. Period. You don't need the eloquence of Obama (with the teleprompter) or Reagan's communication skills but you should be able to perform basic tasks in this society without having society adapt to you. No one expects immediate language perfection for immigrants.
Listen....we've seen the massacres in the Congo, Rwanda and in Bosnia. You cannot have a nation stand when it's made up of nothing but competing mobs. There has to be some unifying factor. It's not going to be race, religion or (unfortunately) even love of country here in America.
The very LEAST that we can have is a common language.
If you cannot understand your neighbor or fellow countryman then you cannot work with him, trust him or expect the same in return.

ants
April 25, 2011, 08:37 PM
The Bill of Rights limits the goverment not private citizens.And that's why I used the words "honor and support".

The Bill of Rights is only binding upon the Government, as Mags notes,
but that doesn't mean we private citizens don't honor and support each other's rights.

Patriotme
April 25, 2011, 08:37 PM
So if I declare Urdu or Cantonese the official language of my shop you would be equally cool with that?

You do know that we do not have an official language in this country? We have now stood for almost 235 years without a required common language. Business has not suffered. We have never has a national language and I personally hope we never will.



I would question how much you actually know about Islam.
Actually I know quite a lot about Islam but this is not the time, place or forum to discuss it. I've read a lot about Islam and have moved past the "Kind, gentle religion" drivel that we are fed on cable news networks. I'm trying very hard not to get this thread locked but if you know anything about Islam you know that Mohammed would have much more in common with Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban than he would with modern American Muslims. Send me a private message if you want to discuss this.
I really wonder how much YOU know about Islam and how much is real rather than the Walt Disney version that is often presented to the non muslim public here in America.

Patriotme
April 25, 2011, 08:43 PM
So if I declare Urdu or Cantonese the official language of my shop you would be equally cool with that?

You do know that we do not have an official language in this country? We have now stood for almost 235 years without a required common language. Business has not suffered. We have never has a national language and I personally hope we never will.



I would question how much you actually know about Islam.
Yes, I would be cool with that. If Catonese is the only language that you allow to be spoken in your shop then that is your business. It's your private property and if you obey the laws of the land then so be it. If I don't like it then I'll take my dollars elsewhere. This is the basic practice of all commerce. We vote with our feet and our dollars. We walk away from businesses we don't like. Cater to the customer base that you want as long as you obey the laws.
BTW, I cannot imagine living in China, France or Mexico without trying very hard to learn the language and I cannot imagine "Press 1 For English" recordings on every business call I make while in these nations.

Dreamcast270mhz
April 25, 2011, 08:47 PM
@Patriotme

A church can use a Qu'ran to preach a sermon. Also, most of (but not all) the muslims that are terrorists are shi'a radicals who can't even read Arabic, let alone read an actual Qu'ran. Modern Sunni muslims are mostly kind, gracious people (I have met chinese sunnis in Xi'an who were very kind and knew english quite well)

The man known as Mohammad did spread Islam through warfare with non-muslim states, but as you will find there are very few muslims (>5%) that even believe Jihad serves a purpose.

Now I applaud your patriotism as I cannot share it but don't feed us the right-wing/Reagan crap that they are immoral people.

rellascout
April 25, 2011, 08:51 PM
Actually I know quite a lot about Islam but this is not the time, place or forum to discuss it. I've read a lot about Islam and have moved past the "Kind, gentle religion" drivel that we are fed on cable news networks. I'm trying very hard not to get this thread locked but if you know anything about Islam you know that Mohammed would have much more in common with Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban than he would with modern American Muslims. Send me a private message if you want to discuss this.
I really wonder how much YOU know about Islam and how much is real rather than the Walt Disney version that is often presented to the non muslim public here in America.

I was a religion & philosophy double major in college. I studied the Islamic religion in depth. I am Jewish and also attended Catholic HS. I am well versed in the Abrahamic religions. Muslims are people of the book.

If you think that Bin Laden represents Islam is it you who needs an education.

Sam1911
April 25, 2011, 08:52 PM
Too much religion, politics, and social policy "discussion." So lets just call this a heads up on a place to avoid and drop it.

In the end, his place, his rules (until the lawsuits start) ... as someone funny put it, "Bless his heart." :rolleyes:

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