Shipped a handgun UPS today


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blue_ridge
April 25, 2011, 04:05 PM
Since an individual can't ship a handgun through the Post Office, I went to UPS to ship a handgun today. I've always had good service and no troubles shipping long guns through UPS.

Still, I checked the UPS website and read their Firearms shipping guide. I printed out a copy and took it with me. I also had my signed copy of FFL.

Everything went fine except they would not give me their Next Day Air Saver shipping. The UPS clerk told me only Next Day Air was allowed for handguns. I told them, "Okay, no problem, but are you sure? Because I checked your website and printed it out and it says right here, Next Day Air OR Next Day Air Saver. They told me, "No, sorry, only Next Day Air."

So, it cost me $86 to ship a 1911 from Virginia to Florida. I don't know what other options exist for the next time. I guess I will ask my local FFL what he would charge me to ship a handgun for me. OR, I will just not sell another handgun out of state. $86 is ridiculous.

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nalioth
April 25, 2011, 04:08 PM
You got fleeced by a cunning counterperson :)

Their policies allow either Next Day Air, or Next Day Air Saver (I only use the NDAS service).

If you're shipping out of state, your FFL is almost certainly going to be cheaper than UPS/FedEx.

I only use UPS for intrastate shipments (which can be delivered right to the recipient's door).

kingpin008
April 25, 2011, 04:32 PM
I would have asked for the supervisor. If none was available, I'd be calling their corporate offices. If their own policy states that Next Day Air is an option, I'm getting Next Day Air whether the clerk likes it or not.

blue_ridge
April 25, 2011, 04:55 PM
After the fact, I too was beginning to think I was fleeced. But I believe that when we do anything with guns, hunt, shoot, carry or even ship, that we need to reresent our group well. That means being courteous, friendly etc. In the moment, at the UPS service center, this lady was being very nice and friendly. We talked about growing tomatoes in the garden etc. I just believed her when she said it was only possible to ship it Next Day Air and I didn't want to cause a stink.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the UPS changing their policy recently to require ONLY Next Day Air for handguns?

nalioth
April 25, 2011, 05:19 PM
Does anyone have any knowledge of the UPS changing their policy recently to require ONLY Next Day Air for handguns?From Shipping a gun - who, how, where, when and why (http://forum.novarata.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=896), you can get it straight from the horse's mouth: Shipping Firearms - UPS (http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html)Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, and UPS Next Day Air Saver®. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).

It's not impolite to request they stand by their policies.

hardluk1
April 25, 2011, 05:20 PM
Did you go to UPS or a mail store that ups, fedx and freight all pick up from?

TooTech
April 25, 2011, 05:23 PM
IMHO you were not fleeced, Next Day Air Saver is cheaper, but not by a bunch!

I recently shipped a handgun by Next Day Air Saver and it cost about $75.16.

TooTech
April 25, 2011, 05:24 PM
"Dangerous goods" can only be shipped from a UPS-staffed shipping center.

pecosriver
April 25, 2011, 05:27 PM
My local FFL will ship for me using USPS priority. Cost plus $15. In other words,using a medium flat rate box plus the $15 is less than $27 total.

blue_ridge
April 25, 2011, 05:52 PM
Nalioth, I already stated that I not only read the UPS regs, but I printed them out and took them with me. So, not much point in quoting them. I showed them to the clerk and she said, "yeah but with all the changes lately, we can only ship next day air now."

9mmepiphany
April 25, 2011, 06:48 PM
The cheapest way to ship is through your friendly FFL. They usually charge $15-25 as a fee and the actually shipping cost (usually <$20)

kingpin008
April 25, 2011, 07:11 PM
I showed them to the clerk and she said, "yeah but with all the changes lately, we can only ship next day air now."

Ask her to show you a copy of the updated regs. If she can't, then it doesn't matter, does it?


But I believe that when we do anything with guns, hunt, shoot, carry or even ship, that we need to represent our group well. That means being courteous, friendly etc.

Who said anything about being rude? I can ask for a supervisor perfectly politely, just as I can explain the situation to a higher-up, should no supervisor be willing to help me.

Futhermore, part of representing ourselves means standing up for ourselves. If their policy states that we can use NDAS to ship, then we should be able to do just that without the hassle. As a consumer, you expect a business to operate within the bounds of their own guidelines, right? Same here.


In the moment, at the UPS service center, this lady was being very nice and friendly. We talked about growing tomatoes in the garden etc. I just believed her when she said it was only possible to ship it Next Day Air and I didn't want to cause a stink.

But it's your right to make a stink. That's great that she was nice and friendly, but she was also wrong. Fortunately, you have the ability as a consumer to correct her - and IMHO, you should have. Think about it like this - would you rather that nice lady be corrected by a nice, calm guy like you, or some raging jerk who comes after you trying to do the same thing, only to be told that she won't allow it?

Canuck-IL
April 25, 2011, 07:29 PM
Whenever I ship UPS I always print out and bring a copy of their current tariff - most of the time it's necessary to educate the staff as to what their own policies are.

The most stubborn one insisted that regardless of the tariff, I had to have a license to ship a long gun. We called Atlanta to resolve that one. She never did have the sense to ensure that the recipient was in fact an FFL.

It's also a good idea to bring a copy of the BATF proof of current FFL with you so they can see that the license address matches the shipping address, just in case you get a slightly brighter clerk than I had.
/Bryan

nalioth
April 25, 2011, 07:33 PM
It's also a good idea to bring a copy of the BATF proof of current FFL with you so they can see that the license address matches the shipping address, just in case you get a slightly brighter clerk than I had.
Not an issue in the commie states, but in the free states you can ship a gun directly to another state resident - so what FFL are you going to show, then?

MrWesson
April 25, 2011, 09:31 PM
I can ship between residents in my state and I have done so tight lipped with UPS ground.

Magoo
April 25, 2011, 09:41 PM
No "tight lipped" about it here. In the description I clearly write "Ed Brown Guardian" or whatever and feel I've disclosed honestly and precisely. If the counter person doesn't recognize it, I don't care. If a claim is required, I feel likemy description was as accurate as possible, and I'd expect compensation for a replacement "Ed Brown Guardian".

One shipment I did the (FFL) recipient requested I remove the firing pin and declare the package as "machine parts". That went without a hitch as well.

makarovnik
April 26, 2011, 07:27 AM
You got hosed. I paid about $16 last time I shipped a handgun via private carrier.

Shear_stress
April 26, 2011, 08:03 AM
You got hosed. I paid about $16 last time I shipped a handgun via private carrier.
And how far across your county did you ship it?

CraigC
April 26, 2011, 08:54 AM
I can ship between residents in my state and I have done so tight lipped with UPS ground.
You got hosed. I paid about $16 last time I shipped a handgun via private carrier.
You can do that without breaking the law but they will not honor an insurance claim if you break their overnight policy by shipping handguns by Ground service.

HOOfan_1
April 26, 2011, 09:19 AM
Nalioth, I already stated that I not only read the UPS regs, but I printed them out and took them with me. So, not much point in quoting them. I showed them to the clerk and she said, "yeah but with all the changes lately, we can only ship next day air now."

When my dad and I went to tour the Norfolk Naval station, we looked at their website and it stated that on Saturdays you could actually go on certain ships. This was in 2007. When we got there, we asked about it and they said "No you haven't been able to do that since September 11, 2001.

So they haven't updated their website in 6 years?

Stuff like that certainly gets my goat.

rellascout
April 26, 2011, 09:41 AM
No "tight lipped" about it here. In the description I clearly write "Ed Brown Guardian" or whatever and feel I've disclosed honestly and precisely. If the counter person doesn't recognize it, I don't care. If a claim is required, I feel likemy description was as accurate as possible, and I'd expect compensation for a replacement "Ed Brown Guardian".

One shipment I did the (FFL) recipient requested I remove the firing pin and declare the package as "machine parts". That went without a hitch as well.


In order for your claim to be valid you must comply with UPS regs. Those regs state that if you are shipping a handgun you must declare it and ship it overnight, adult signature etc... if you do not you are in volation of their policy and all bets are off.

Your insurance claim will not be honored. A standard UPS shippement only has a $100 worth of insurance on it no matter what the contents unless you buy additional insurance. When you purchase that you have to declare what it is. A Ed Brown would bump you into the high $ value category which requires detailed disclosure. You must state you are shipping an Ed Brown handgun.

Now you can continue to do this and roll the dice but your package is not insured. Machine parts do not cut it either.

blue_ridge
April 26, 2011, 09:57 AM
You got hosed. I paid about $16 last time I shipped a handgun via private carrier.

That's real helpful, thanks. Care to share any details? Since US POst office won't ship handguns from private citizens and UPS and Fedex both require Next Day service, I'm very curious how you get a price of $16.

That is the main point of this topic. I got charged an exhorbitant price and want to see if there is a better way. So far, the best method, when you're shipping a handgun as a private citizen to an FFL, is to find a decent local FFL to do it for you. Thereby bypassing the need to send it Next Day Air. If you have a better way, why don't you share it with us?

rellascout
April 26, 2011, 10:02 AM
That is the main point of this topic. I got charged an exhorbitant price and want to see if there is a better way. So far, the best method, when you're shipping a handgun as a private citizen to an FFL, is to find a decent local FFL to do it for you. Thereby bypassing the need to send it Next Day Air. If you have a better way, why don't you share it with us?

Build and maintain a good relationship with your local FFL and you should be able to ship a handgun for about $30 USPS insured.

EOD Guy
April 26, 2011, 01:40 PM
"Dangerous goods" can only be shipped from a UPS-staffed shipping center.

The term "Dangerous Goods" has nothing to do with firearms. It is the term for hazardous materials shipped by air.

CraigC
April 26, 2011, 02:54 PM
The term "Dangerous Goods" has nothing to do with firearms. It is the term for hazardous materials shipped by air.
Regardless of the word used, firearms must still be shipped from a UPS counter, not a UPS store or print shop.

chez323
April 26, 2011, 03:57 PM
I just shipped a handgun via Fed Ex priority overnight from PA to WI for refinishing, only cost me $32.67 w/$500 insurance.

SlamFire1
April 26, 2011, 03:58 PM
Next day services make it harder for their employees to steal your firearm.

Which they will.:cuss:

The CMP ships next day Fed Ex and they don't ship on Friday. They were losing too many rifles over the weekend. Fed Ex employees learned what was in the boxes and a good percentage were "lost" in shipment.

UPS, Fed Ex hire untrustworthy people and you end up paying for their problems.

conhntr
April 26, 2011, 04:35 PM
How did they walk out of the building with a m1 garand tucked in their pantleg?

3daman!
April 26, 2011, 05:11 PM
My local pusher charges me 15-20 dollars to ship a handgun!
He ships it in the big brown truck.

HE HAS AN ACCOUNT WITH THEM TO DO THIS!

I have bought many new and used firearms from him.
Even when I was working in a competitive firearms store, I sent him many, many potential customers when we couldn't get what they needed/wanted.
There are are some very good dealers to do business with.
but then again there are a bunch who will nickle and dime you to death.
And the problem is they sleep good at night knowing they screwed ya out of a little more every time.
Find an older store/dealer and make friends.

rellascout
April 26, 2011, 05:26 PM
How did they walk out of the building with a m1 garand tucked in their pantleg?

You miss route it. Get it onto a truck and then deliver it to someone or somewhere on the route. Happens all the time. I also never ship on a Friday if I can help it.

TooTech
April 26, 2011, 07:31 PM
Type 01 FFL to another 01 FFL can use US Mail Priority. Doesn't work if the sender or the recipient has a C&R. Sad and infuriating, but true.

woad_yurt
April 27, 2011, 08:21 AM
To those who ship a handgun "tightlipped" by UPS ground:

It's federal law that one has to inform the "common carrier" that a handgun is in the package. It's the carriers' policies that determine how they'll ship it but the law requires the shipper to tell them it's a gun.

Bubbles
April 27, 2011, 08:28 AM
Most handguns, even with their case, fit nicely into a USPS flat rate box. So, if you have your local dealer mail it, the transfer fee + shipping, insurance, signature, etc. should be a lot less than $85.

nalioth
April 27, 2011, 08:37 AM
To those who ship a handgun "tightlipped" by UPS ground:

It's federal law that one has to inform the "common carrier" that a handgun is in the package. It's the carriers' policies that determine how they'll ship it but the law requires the shipper to tell them it's a gun.I was wondering how long it'd be before this old (and factually deficient) chestnut popped up. .

You do not have to declare if you are shipping to an FFL holder


(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped. - The law (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html)

Shipping a gun - who, how, where, when and why (http://forum.novarata.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=896)

rellascout
April 27, 2011, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by 18 USC 922
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped. - The law

You do not have to declare if you are shipping to an FFL holder

This has always been my understanding as well.

CraigC
April 27, 2011, 09:48 AM
It's federal law that one has to inform the "common carrier" that a handgun is in the package.
As nalioth posted, no, it is not required by federal law to notify the carrier the package contains a firearm. This is where the ATF FAQ is misleading. If you read the actual statute, it is plain as day.

CHEVELLE427
April 27, 2011, 09:53 AM
this is why i use the FFL at the range i use, last 3 hand guns cost me $6-8 and a 40lb case with 2 long guns in it cost me $40 UPS.

whats up with all this $35 and up crap to ship a gun


AS FOR DECLARING IT OR TIGHT LIP AS TO WHAT IS IN THE BOX

IF IT SAYS ON THE LABEL SHIP TO Joe Blow guns most likely there is a gun in the box

nalioth
April 27, 2011, 09:57 AM
As nalioth posted, no, it is not required by federal law to notify the carrier the package contains a firearm.You're gonna get someone in trouble with this BS (that isn't what I posted).

The law says you don't have to declare if you're shipping to an FFL holder.

You DO have to declare if you're shipping to a private party (you know, to a person who doesn't have an FFL).

CraigC
April 27, 2011, 10:52 AM
Hey, throttle back on the animosity a tad. My post was not intended as a comprehensive how-to article on shipping handguns. I was simply agreeing with you and responding to woad_yurt's statement.

Couple things, nobody said anything about shipping to an individual. Individuals can only ship to each other within their own state and the OP was shipping interstate. The only entity that can ship interstate to an individual is an FFL returning a customer's firearm to them, be it a gunsmith or a manufacturer. So one would assume that the shipper, being a dealer, gunsmith or manufacturer, would be knowledgeable on shipping regulations and federal laws pertaining to such.

Secondly, anybody who takes the word of anonymous internet strangers in regards to interpreting and following federal firearms laws is a fool.

doc540
April 27, 2011, 10:55 AM
noted above: relationship with local FFL

My local friend and FFL ships my guns for $20.

He puts them in a USPS flat rate box and away they go.

Charges me the same $20 to receive and do the transfer paperwork on guns I buy.

That's how it should work.

nalioth
April 27, 2011, 10:59 AM
Secondly, anybody who takes the word of anonymous internet strangers in regards to interpreting and following federal firearms laws is a fool.Which is why my posts on the law in this thread have the actual law linked from them or include a document number (so folks can look it up for themselves).

NavyLCDR
April 27, 2011, 11:16 AM
I was wondering how long it'd be before this old (and factually deficient) chestnut popped up

Happens every single time!

Hey, throttle back on the animosity a tad. My post was not intended as a comprehensive how-to article on shipping handguns. I was simply agreeing with you and responding to woad_yurt's statement.

Secondly, anybody who takes the word of anonymous internet strangers in regards to interpreting and following federal firearms laws is a fool

Can't we all just get along?

http://tvoneblogs.com/thespin/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/rodney_king.jpg

rellascout
April 27, 2011, 11:21 AM
Thanks Rodney....

EOD Guy
April 27, 2011, 11:33 AM
The only entity that can ship interstate to an individual is an FFL returning a customer's firearm to them, be it a gunsmith or a manufacturer. So one would assume that the shipper, being a dealer, gunsmith or manufacturer, would be knowledgeable on shipping regulations and federal laws pertaining to such.

There are a lot more instances where a firearm can ship interstate to an unlicensed person or organization. One of the more common is shipments by the CMP to their customers. Other examples are shipments by individuals to themselves, shipments to police or military officers for official use, and shipments to law enforcement agencies or laboratories. There are a few others also allowed by law. Also, the direct return of an unlicensed customer's firearm is only allowed after repair or customization.

CraigC
April 27, 2011, 01:05 PM
double post...

CraigC
April 27, 2011, 01:07 PM
I'm aware that an individual can ship directly to himself, interstate and I knew if I did not include it in my response that somebody would point it out. However, is it really necessary to get into an in-depth discussion about all the nuances of shipping firearms to go so far as to get into every single possible circumstance not described in the OP?


Also, the direct return of an unlicensed customer's firearm is only allowed after repair or customization.
Or replacement.

gym
April 27, 2011, 01:58 PM
Stop the maddness, we have been through this a hundred times at least. Everyone knows by now that you are at their mercy. Everyone will tell you a different story, the supervisor the store clerk the phone support, your friend, etc. Bottom line is you are stuck at a counter with whatever person you are dealing with, after you call their manager "owner" and everyone else, either you are going to do it their way or if ain't getting done at that location. And all the infighting in the world about who is right or wrong means nothing if they won't do it.

mgmorden
April 27, 2011, 02:46 PM
One shipment I did the (FFL) recipient requested I remove the firing pin and declare the package as "machine parts". That went without a hitch as well.

I actually had a Fedex counterperson "check to make sure" that the handgun I was shipping was "Dissassembled and disabled". I had to fib a bit there and just say "Yeah.", as I know their regs don't require that.

Much like the OP, they also wouldn't let me ship it at anything but the fastest Next Day method - can't remember what Fedex calls their cheaper next day service but they wouldn't let the gun go that way.

rellascout
April 27, 2011, 02:59 PM
Fed Ex Saver and UPS Next Day Air Saver are the cheapest options respectively.

blue_ridge
April 27, 2011, 08:32 PM
You're gonna get someone in trouble with this BS (that isn't what I posted).

The law says you don't have to declare if you're shipping to an FFL holder.

You DO have to declare if you're shipping to a private party (you know, to a person who doesn't have an FFL).

Huh? Who's talking about shipping to a private party? This discussion is about an individual shipping to an FFL. 99% of us private individuals are shipping to an FFL. (because it is required by law for 99% of common situations) We HAVE TO DECLARE a handgun because the UPS and FEDEX regs demand it.

UPS - When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

nalioth
April 27, 2011, 08:43 PM
Oy Vey

oneounceload
April 27, 2011, 09:14 PM
too funny...................not

medalguy
April 27, 2011, 11:52 PM
Before this thread gets closed, let me add my .02 on the subject of dealing with UPS counter employees. My son is a manager with UPS and he informs me that virtually all of their clerks are part-time people. Many of the managers and supervisors are part-time as well.
If you have any kind of question like this about what the counter clerk says vs the posted on-line policy, ALWAYS ask to speak to a FULL-TIME SUPERVISOR. Ask the person if he is a full-time sup, and if not, again ask for a full-time sup. The part-timers come and go and are no more well informed than the clerks. You HAVE to go to a full-time supervisor to get correct information. And, if there's any disagreement between what the counter people tell you, ask them to go to their own web site and look at what's posted there. The web site IS the official information source for both UPS employees and the public.

bbuddtec
April 28, 2011, 06:40 AM
My .02c Seems like the best thing to do is ftf shopping around before you need it, then you can make deals before you are "under the gun" and have to settle in the eleventh hour. From reading the past posts, I'd start searching for ffls... I did and found out I had one I already knew, :) ! FFL's could be the cheapest, and definitely are the easiest way.

woad_yurt
April 28, 2011, 07:55 AM
Regarding my mis-info:
Wow. I think I did get my original info from the ATF FAQ. I stand corrected.

nalioth
April 28, 2011, 08:44 AM
Wow. I think I did get my original info from the ATF FAQ. I stand corrected.The ATF FAQ has been known to have a few "discrepancies" in it.

CraigC
April 28, 2011, 09:11 AM
We HAVE TO DECLARE a handgun because the UPS and FEDEX regs demand it.
Correct but the statements made were pertaining to federal law, not company policy. When an individual is shipping to an FFL, there is no law requiring you to notify the shipper that the package contains a firearm. This is a requirement of company policies. The point being that you can legally ship a handgun by UPS or FedEx Ground service but you do so at your own peril. Because if you have to file a claim for loss or damage, they will not honor the insurance claim due to the policy violation.

Missileman
April 28, 2011, 09:47 PM
I shipped a 1911 (broken recoil assenbly/rod) back to the manufacturer yesterday by UPS with all the accompanying crap.

I went in and they said I had to have an FFL # of the receiver to verify the receiving address. I explained to them that was true in a sale or transfer, this was neither. It was going to be repaired and returned to me. No FFL required. Supervisor called corporate office and they explained to him I was right, but corporate policy said he would have to check the "send to" address against an approved list of gun importers/manufacturers to make sure I really was sending it to a manufacturer. They directed him to the list in the system. He checked and I was.

Then they pulled out the overnight rate requirement. I then informed them I understood that if this was a working firearm, but again it was not. It was broken and even if reassembled could not be fired. Since it was non functional it could go 2 day. He called corporate again and again he was told I was correct. They instructed him to label it NON-FUNCTIONAL firearms parts without any ammo/ hazardous materials and send it 2 day for $29 w/$500 insurance.

I was firm, but polite so he tended to believe me and bothered to make the calls. Afterward he actually thanked me because this had made him learn a lot. He then made sure all the other employees there were briefed on what went on. This was at the regional hub 3 blocks from my house.

Other than time consuming it went fairly well :)

NavyLCDR
April 28, 2011, 10:20 PM
Interesting post Missileman, glad it worked out for you.

A couple of points stood out to me:

1. The company that you sent the firearm to DOES possess an FFL. If they are not in the same state as you, it would have been illegal for you to ship the gun to them. Every legal commercial manufacturer of firearms possess an FFL.

2. You still shipped a firearm, according to Federal law. A firearm is still a firearm until it is rendered permanently inoperable. To render a firearm permanently inoperable requires:

Permanently inoperable. A firearm
which is incapable of discharging a shot
by means of an explosive and incapable of
being readily restored to a firing condition.
An acceptable method of rendering most
firearms permanently inoperable is to fusion
weld the chamber closed and fusion
weld the barrel solidly to the frame. Certain
unusual firearms require other methods
to render the firearm permanently
inoperable. Contact ATF for instructions.

Since your firearm was capable of being readily restored to a firing condition, it was still a firearm.

Glad you worked around their overnight requirement anyway.

Missileman
April 29, 2011, 09:21 AM
I understannd what your saying NavyLT, but UPS was wanting to do a FFL to FFL transfer which wasn't required. They also wanted me to get a copy of the companies FFL for address verification only, which many manufacturers will not/ do not do. Many manufacturers do not even do any sale or transfer operations on property. I know they supposedly can with a type 7, but do to local ordinances or company policy will not bother with all the paperwork/record keeping to direct sell/transfer a firearm. A couple local gun companies here in FL can trade your guns in for replacement, but cannot sell you or even give you a new firearm. They have to transfer it to a distributor who then gives it to an FFL for you to pick up. I know this because I test some guns for one of the companies. I beleive in their cases it is a zoning issue since the facilities are in industrial only zones. In my case it was an importer who has also chosen not to bother with individual sales paperwork. Many companies guard their FFL information pretty tightly also. Why I don't know, but they do.

As far as it being a firearm, you are correct it was still a firearm, but it could not have been made operational with the parts included in the package. It would have required many parts from the manufacturer before being able to operate. UPS and FedEx policies are usually concerned more from a safety stand point. If that package is stolen, is it a shooting gun, or is it just a bunch gun parts. Since my recoil rod broke during rapid fire shooting the slide jammed, the recoil spring plug and barrel bushing went out the front on the next shot. It has a few parts that may be useable, but it is a warped and twisted bunch of pieces. By strict ATF rules, yes it is still a firearm, but from a safety concern standpoint, it cannot be easily made operational.

As usual it is a guessing game to what the rules are today compared to yesterday. I believe that next time I have to send in a gun I will go through my local gun shop. I have a S&W 586-1 .357 that has to go back for mod and it is going to test the gun shop method this time. That is if S&W can find the parts to do it :)

NavyLCDR
April 29, 2011, 07:40 PM
I went in and they said I had to have an FFL # of the receiver to verify the receiving address. I explained to them that was true in a sale or transfer, this was neither.

Then my question is, why would it be any different for a sale or a transfer? You are still shipping the guns across state lines which requires the gun be shipped to an FFL. It doesn't matter if it is a sale/transfer/gift/repair.

The difference for a repair or replacement firearm is when that FFL returns the gun directly to you. But there is no difference in you shipping the gun to them just because it is a repair and not a sale or transfer.

Missileman
April 29, 2011, 11:38 PM
Then my question is, why would it be any different for a sale or a transfer? You are still shipping the guns across state lines which requires the gun be shipped to an FFL. It doesn't matter if it is a sale/transfer/gift/repair.

The primary reason for the FFL transfer is to track ownership, collect taxes, and insure background checks are completed. Since returning a gun to a gunsmith or manufacturer gunsmith for repair is not a change in ownership different rules apply. Excerpts from ATF FFL FAQs:

Q: A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law?
Neither the transfer of a repaired firearm nor the transfer of a replacement firearm would be subject to the requirements of the Brady law. Furthermore, the regulations provide that a Form 4473 is not required to cover these transactions. However, the licensee’s permanent acquisition and disposition records should reflect the return of the firearm or the transfer of a replacement firearm.

[27 CFR 478.124-25]

Since all manufacturers and gunsmiths are licensed this one would always apply:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Many of the rules can be found here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/

It's still all a mixed up tangled mess.

ants
April 30, 2011, 12:11 AM
Having a pistol shipped to me from Kentucky. Mike went to UPS and said 2nd Day Air.

And yes, they shipped it 2nd Day Air, I just got the tracking info from UPS Quantum View.

Cost (with insurance and adult signature) is $45.07.

NavyLCDR
April 30, 2011, 12:30 AM
The primary reason for the FFL transfer is to track ownership, collect taxes, and insure background checks are completed. Since returning a gun to a gunsmith or manufacturer gunsmith for repair is not a change in ownership different rules apply.

On YOUR end of the transaction, as a private party shipping a firearm out of state, the Federal laws are exactly the same. You were under absolutely no different rules sending your broken gun to the manufacturer for repair than if you were shipping a perfectly operable gun to a person's receiving FFL after selling it to them.

The only rules that are different are for the manufacturer returning the gun to you.

You were able to convince UPS that somehow the rules were different in your circumstance, but according to Federal law, as a private party shipping a gun out of state, the legal requirements were exactly the same.

Anger
April 30, 2011, 12:44 AM
Op.... I would just dispute the difference with your credit card and be done with it

NavyLCDR
April 30, 2011, 11:48 AM
Op.... I would just dispute the difference with your credit card and be done with it

There is nothing to dispute with the credit card company. UPS charged him exactly what he agreed to pay and, presumably, they sent the gun by the exact method that he paid for.

ants
April 30, 2011, 01:28 PM
Even if you dispute a charge with your credit card company, that doesn't mean you're done with it. You still have to resolve the dispute.

Missileman
April 30, 2011, 02:08 PM
On YOUR end of the transaction, as a private party shipping a firearm out of state, the Federal laws are exactly the same. You were under absolutely no different rules sending your broken gun to the manufacturer for repair than if you were shipping a perfectly operable gun to a person's receiving FFL after selling it to them.

This is not completely true. It is correct that I must ship to a license holder as is the normal requirement. What is different is that I DO NOT have to fill out a form 4473 transfer form. I also do not have to turn the gun in to a local FFL for transfer so the form can be filed and stored. I also DO NOT have to supply a copy of the receiving FFL license for verification that they are willing to accept the transfer. True the manufacturer is licensed and willingness to accept is implied since an RA# is issued. UPS can verify the address from a list they have so no form is required. And as in the previous post the reciver does not fill out any transfer forms since ownership does not change. It is similar, but it is different. There is no paperwork required on either end.

NavyLCDR
May 1, 2011, 12:23 AM
This is not completely true. It is correct that I must ship to a license holder as is the normal requirement. What is different is that I DO NOT have to fill out a form 4473 transfer form. I also do not have to turn the gun in to a local FFL for transfer so the form can be filed and stored. I also DO NOT have to supply a copy of the receiving FFL license for verification that they are willing to accept the transfer.

Like I said.... nothing is different. As the SELLER or GIFTOR of the firearm you don't have to do any of that either.

Whether you are taking the gun to a local FFL for them to mail the gun to the receiving FFL or shipping the gun to the receiving FFL yourself for transfer to the buyer/recipient, all that is required is for the FFL to log in the name and address of the person it came from. There is no form 4473, no NICS check, and no requirement (in law) for a copy of the recipient's FFL to be provided by the seller/giftor.

Again, the Federal laws are EXACTLY the same when a person SENDS/SHIPS a gun out of state if the firearm is gifted, sold, or sent to a manufacturer for repair. The ONLY difference is on the receiving end - a manufacturer/gunsmith can return a firearm directly to you.

Missileman
May 1, 2011, 10:38 PM
You're right. I made the incorrect ASSumption that being Federal it would be the same every where. Turns out it is not. As usual, states get involved and change the rules. Federal law is exactly like you said. Some states force a counter form both sending and receiving. Some force interstate transfer to be FFL TO FFL only and do not allow a non licensee to ship dirctly to an FFL. Some require an advance acknowledgment before common carrier can accept the firearm. They all follow the federal law to a minimum, but then put more and more crap into the mix.

Florida has been even worse with local sheriffs being able to set the rules in there county like a nearby county where a 5 day wait is required for any firearm purchase, handgun, rifle, or shotgun. We just passed a new law forcing all counties to conform to state law and fining them for non compliance. It was also suppossed to make them liable for legal fees if the county lost, but I don't know if that part stayed in.

I now see why FFL's can end up in prison for not following a rule that they did not understand correctly. What an absolute mess.

So I apologize NavyLT. Something an NCO always finds hard to do or say, but you are correct :)

NavyLCDR
May 1, 2011, 11:53 PM
So I apologize NavyLT. Something an NCO always finds hard to do or say, but you are correct

And Osama Bin Laden is dead too! I am circling this day TWICE on my calendar!

No sweat, though. I shipped a Thompson Contender back to them for repair via FEDEX. A Thompson Contender is 100% handgun, just with a 14" barrel. Anyway the FEDEX counter guy asked if he could look in the package, so I let him open the package, he looked at the gun, closed and sealed it back up and asked, "Air or ground?" I didn't even blink and answered, "GROUND!" Saved about $50. I got my fully repaired Contender back in about 4 weeks delivered by UPS ground.

And, I was NOT taking into account state laws. State laws may, indeed, make shipping a handgun different for return to a manufacturer than for a sale or gift. So I was not 100% correct...only on the Federal level.

aniok
May 18, 2011, 03:50 AM
I am feeling the OP's pain. I need to ship a Tomcat back to Beretta and got a severe case of sticker shock when I found out that I must use UPS with their amazing rates.

I shipped a Tomcat back to Beretta in 2002 via Priority Mail. I still have the receipts. It cost me $3.95 for shipping plus $4 to insure it for $300. No hassles, no issues. I shipped a new gun back to S&W in 2005 for warranty service. As best I remember, I sent that via Priority Mail also. I don't have the receipts for that one handy, so I can't be absolutely sure it was Priority Mail, but I'm sure I would remember if I had been ripped by UPS.

Does anyone know when USPS changed their policy? I would like to find out more about this with the idea that something might be done about it. It makes no sense to me that a FFL license holder can ship a handgun to a manufacturer via Priority Mail, but the common clod cannot.

killchain
May 18, 2011, 04:19 AM
The one time I made the mistake of shipping a handgun in for repair, I ended up paying for next-day air signature.

About $110.

On a $250 handgun.

CraigC
May 18, 2011, 09:12 AM
I shipped a Tomcat back to Beretta in 2002 via Priority Mail. I still have the receipts. It cost me $3.95 for shipping plus $4 to insure it for $300. No hassles, no issues. I shipped a new gun back to S&W in 2005 for warranty service. As best I remember, I sent that via Priority Mail also. I don't have the receipts for that one handy, so I can't be absolutely sure it was Priority Mail, but I'm sure I would remember if I had been ripped by UPS.
And if you don't hold an FFL, you committed a felony both times.

aniok
May 19, 2011, 12:13 AM
And if you don't hold an FFL, you committed a felony both times.
I'm careful to follow the rules and I don't recall any problems. I'm pretty sure that I told the PO what I was sending. The address makes it pretty obvious. I remember a pleasant transaction at the PO. That's why I asked when the rules changed. I guess I can contact the PO and ask.

NavyLCDR
May 19, 2011, 07:32 AM
I'm careful to follow the rules and I don't recall any problems. I'm pretty sure that I told the PO what I was sending. The address makes it pretty obvious. I remember a pleasant transaction at the PO. That's why I asked when the rules changed. I guess I can contact the PO and ask.

The earliest Domestic Mail Manual archive the USPS has on their website is from August, 2003:

http://pe.usps.gov/archive.asp

It's been illegal since at least then, and probably since many decades before:
http://pe.usps.gov/Archive/HTML/DMMArchive0810/C024.htm#Xaq5787

1.2Handguns

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 1.3 and 1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 1.4 and 1.6.

1.3Authorized Persons

Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties:

a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.

b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.

c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.

e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.

f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.

g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 1.3c through 1.3e.

hanno
May 20, 2011, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by aniok:

I'm careful to follow the rules and I don't recall any problems. I'm pretty sure that I told the PO what I was sending. The address makes it pretty obvious. I remember a pleasant transaction at the PO. That's why I asked when the rules changed. I guess I can contact the PO and ask.

It doesn't matter what someone at the Post Office told you (or let you do). It is not a policy a postal employee can interpret on their own whim, it is a settled matter of federal law. It is illegal to mail a handgun frame unless manufacturer/dealer FFL to manufacturer/dealer FFL (there are very limited exceptions for military, LE, etc.) This has been so for decades (back to the 40s).

The controlling statute is 18 USC 1715.

Sec. 1715. Firearms as nonmailable; regulations


Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed
on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or
carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the
Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under
such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in
connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy,
Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps;
to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory,
Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United
States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or
District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or
commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and
employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to
watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a
State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such
articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of
firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments,
including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from
one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service
shall prescribe.
Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly
causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon,
or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the
person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm
declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this
title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/1715.html

What you did was a felony. The fact that some postal employee assisted you in breaking the law is not a legal defense. I wouldn't recommend doing it again. And, I wouldn't admit to doing it on a public forum. Fed time is hard time.

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