[LGer]

Guys...

I am thinking about adding a laser to my Kahr PM9. I think that it would be very helpful to me in quickly acquiring a target if needed. I can see many positives in adding one but there is one question that I just can't shake.

In your opinion is it possible for a BG to determine your location from your light? A scenario that I envision as being entirely possible would be for an attacker to come at me (evening, armed), I would run for cover behind a car, and get into a shootout.

Is it possible that the laser would be an aid to the BG in determining my position in defending myself? I know that there is a very slim chance of this ever happening but is this a concern for any of you?

Thanks in advance!

[ForumSurfer]

I know that there is a very slim chance of this ever happening but is this a concern for any of you? No. I decided last night I want a small, lightweight revolver with a laser. I haven't owned a laser in some time.

The only time my laser would have ever "gave away my position" is if it were smokey or there was fog in the air. Also, if they are directly in front of your laser they will see the red dot as a point of origin. If they are directly in front of you and there is enough light for you to identify your target (that's the only way we have our gun drawn, right?), well then they already see you or see where your light is coming from. It is really hard for me to envision gun battles in total darkness. If it is that dark and I feel an intruder is near, I need to be lighting up the area with my flashlight or some other source instead of fumbling around in pitch black hoping to bump into someone to shoot.

I've never trained to use a DAO revolver in a self defense role. The laser will help me with dry firing and trigger control.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV... :)

[Hypnogator]

The only negative on having a laser on your defensive firearm is if you develop the habit of using it as a crutch when practicing, instead of concentrating on sight picture. The laser, being an electrical/mechanical device, can fail, and Murphy's Law dictates that it will fail right at the worst possible time. :uhoh:

Mount your laser and practice with it, but devote at least an equal amount of time and ammo to point shooting and using your sights. ;)

FWIW, all of my defensive handguns have lasers on them. I wouldn't be without one. Remember, like your handgun, "It's always better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!" :cool:

[isc]

Unless it's a grip type laser (ie crimson trace) the extra attached laser is just something to snag and get in the way. There is no way I'd ever want a cheap laser clamped to a handgun. I'd also worry about installing a guide rod laser because that might be less durable.

If you're going to do it, do it right.

[ForumSurfer]

I'd also worry about installing a guide rod laser because that might be less durable.I've also wondered how the heck a guide rod laser maintains zero after you strip it and put it back in?

I' also failed to mention that I feel a laser should be an aide, not something you learn to depend on. It does require batteries, after all. They also seem to be difficult to acquire in direct sunlight if you are under stress. I had a beretta 96 with CT grips. They were great, but my self defense training was inadequate when I had them. I'd be interested to see how the CT grips would benefit me now that I am a better shooter and better trained when it comes to self defense.

[Sam1911]

The big negative I see with adding a laser is, honestly, using the laser.

Lasers can teach you things about your technique if you know how to evaluate what you're seeing, but their use as a primary sighting tool is largely fundamentally at odds with good handgunning practices in that they teach you, encourage you, (some would say force you) to look over your sights to find that red dot on the target, which is exactly the opposite of how you should be sighting a handgun. Remember, front sight, front sight, front sight! Your focus isn't supposed to be on the target, and certainly not peering past your sights to find a glowing dot on it somewhere.

A trainer of my acquaintance recently told me of some very long-term experiments he had performed with shooters of various skill levels to try and see what an equally-trained person was able to accomplish with lasers vs. iron sights. The results were disappointing as the shooters, when tested under "defensive shooting" conditions, universally shot with less speed and accuracy with the lasers, regardless of training or developed proficiency, or experience with the device. The natural instinctive coordination between the eye to the front sight and the target beyond is broken and the shooter doesn't make the shot based on the data his/her brain is best able to process. That leap of faith that lets us get that front sight centered on target and take a shot in under a second and then reacquire and shoot another aimed shot in less than 0.2 sec. is removed and instead the shooter is looking for the reassurance of the red ball which is out there, somewhere, bouncing around like a kite in the wind.

In essence, it's too much information. Instead of instinctively processing just how much precision you NEED to make the shot, your brain is forced to contend with this exceedingly specific aiming point which is flickering all over the place, in and out of view, and which every shot sends jumping off the target. It's somewhat akin to taking a running shot at a deer at 20 yards with your variable scope set on 16x -- you spend more time fighting the sighting device than tracking and shooting.

There are instances where a laser sight may be a useful alternative, but it's best to think of it that way and not get hung up in using it for primary sighting duties where it's really a millstone around your neck.

[BCRider]

The laser source is still a light source. Obviously in a smokey or dusty environment the light beam would be a guiding pointer to your gun. But even in clear air the fellow you're pointing the laser at will still see a very bright amount of scatter light that isn't actually part of the laser beam. If you have any sort of laser pointer kicking around you can see this for yourself. Have someone point it at your chest from about 5 yards away. You will easily see the light source due to the side scatter light. Or in a store with a laser you're thinking about buying turn it on and point it from arm's length down to your upper chest and see how bright the scattered light from the emmiter is. Oh sure, this side scatter is no where near as bight as the actual laser spot but I think you'll find that it's quite noticable and would be an great "Hey! I'm Over Here!" to anyone looking your way in the dark.

The only way to avoid this side scatter light is if the emmiter is at the end of a long collimator tube so the scatter can't project outwards. There may be some that are like that but I don't remember seeing any.

The other option is to have a pressure switch and to learn to use it all the time to avoid turning on the laser until the last instant so you avoid the issue.

[LGer]

The only time my laser would have ever "gave away my position" is if it were smokey or there was fog in the air. Also, if they are directly in front of your laser they will see the red dot as a point of origin. If they are directly in front of you and there is enough light for you to identify your target (that's the only way we have our gun drawn, right?), well then they already see you or see where your light is coming from. It is really hard for me to envision gun battles in total darkness. If it is that dark and I feel an intruder is near, I need to be lighting up the area with my flashlight or some other source instead of fumbling around in pitch black hoping to bump into someone to shoot.

Great info guys - thank you very much! You've given me a lot to think about and I appreciate that. I don't think that I have ever received such a complete and well thought out reply before.

I've added the above quote from the first reply because his reply struck home as well. My concern about giving my position away seems foolish when considered in this light. The second or so that the light went on before firing (if needed) probably would make little difference. I would probably be better off to not use the laser should I find the need to fire in a low-light situation. So if I use my head and not depend on the laser in every situation I should be good to go. Makes perfect sense to me. Thank you all very much!

Leon

[LGer]

Witty saying to be plagarized shorty.....

Love it! :D I have two reasons for coming up with this goofy scenario.

My number one choice would be to remain hidden and avoid a fight. If I were about to be discovered I am of the mindset now that to depend on the laser in this situation would be foolish. I wouldn't fire anyway until I could see "the whites of his eyes" so it wouldn't be needed.

Number two would be to take cover behind a large object. My hope is that the BG would consider the area too much of a risk to take a chance on a nobody like me and just go away. If I were under fire while running to this cover I would think that it would be to my advantage that once cover was found to keep my exact location from him. In this situation I now feel that a laser would be useless as well. I still wouldn't fire until the last possible moment.

I have seen it written many times to prepare for a situation in advance - run situations through your mind - determine what you might do. I am starting to think that this may not be a good idea for me. I have too much time on my hands (recently retired) and probably over-think these things. What is good for one may not be a good thing for all.

Anyway..... thank you for allowing me to show you what a worry-wart that I've become :o and again - Thank you very much for the great responses!

Leon

[shamalama]

My ankle gun, a S&W 642, has a Crimson Trace lasergrip.

To start with, the sights on a 642 are a bit less than "wonderful", so in low/no light or "quick acquire" I find the laser gets me on target quicker and allows shooting from "other than a proper Weaver stance".

BUT ... I am NOT a fan of any laser that you have to "do something" to activate. I've read too many media stories of negligent discharges while the shooter was trying to find the "on" switch and ended up hitting the trigger. In a stress situation I need less complication, not more. The Crimson Trace is activated automatically when you properly hold the grip, and nothing more. All laser companies make stuff that shoots equally bright/accurate red/green beams of light. This "no thought config" is the main reason I like Crimson Trace stuff compared with the "push this tiny button inches away from your trigger during a high-stress situation" setups.

Just my 2¢

[Kingcreek]

I have the Crimson Trace on my PM9. I make sure I do plenty of shooting without the laser and use the sights, but in a small carry gun the laser has more positives than negatives.

[Single Action Six]

One of the advantages (if it's a home defense weapon), is if it's being used by someone who may be so-so (to somewhat familiar), with the firearm being used. I'm thinking more of a girlfriend or wife (I hope they're not both living with you at the same time.) :uhoh: :D ..or even early to mid teenagers. That way all they have to do is place the dot dead center and pull the trigger.

Single Action Six

[LGer]

OK... I've been holding out on you. I have had a CT Laser in my gun safe for a month trying to decide if I wanted to use it. You have addressed those concerns so I decided to install it a few minutes ago. It sure is a sweet piece of equipment.

I will be going to the range often and I will practice both with and without the laser. Now comes the all time stupidest question that I can think of.

Do I need to hold the pistol in an upright position. I guess what I am asking is - how does it work? Is the round supposed to go to whatever the dot is on no matter the angle of the gun? Can I stand on my head (like I could still do that :D) and shoot with the gun upside down? Could I shoot laying down with the gun at a 45 degree angle, pull the trigger and expect the round to hit the dot? I know that this sounds like a question a troll might ask but take my word for it..... I am really that stupid.

Once I learn this I will leave you be. I know that your time is valuable and I feel bad about wasting it on something like this but it is something than I would like to know.

Thanks once again guys....

Leon

[Remo223]

price

[Effigy]

Some people have hinted at it, but I don't think it's been stated clearly yet:
No, the laser is not visible in the air unless there are floating particles (fog, smoke, etc.) to catch the light. It's not like in the movies, where you see a red beam projected from the gun.

Bottom line, the only downside to a laser is cost and potentially bulk, depending on what model you use. I'd recommend getting one, knowing how it works, sighting in for a realistic range (~20 yards or less) then mostly forgetting about it until you're in an actual conflict. I shoot a couple mags with the laser every other range trip just to make sure it's on target, but I do almost all my practice shooting with iron sights. Shooting with the laser is idiot-proof if it's sighted in, so you don't really need to practice with it.

[LGer]

I bought them before the rebates kicked in from Optic Planet.... Think that I paid like $175 but there is a great program going on right now. They are much cheaper.

[Manco]

In my view, there is absolutely no point whatsoever in using a laser in conjunction with iron sights--it's just a distraction that offers no benefits. On the other hand, if your laser is working (i.e. it's functional and the dot is visible under the current conditions) and you like the idea of using lasers and have trained for it, then in a real defensive situation you should use only the laser to aim, ignoring your iron sights, which are there solely for backup in case of failure (or changing conditions such as stepping into bright sunlight). I think that there are advantages to focusing on the target rather than a front iron sight, and I think that optical sights such as red dots and holographic sights, which are used in a manner similar to lasers, have proven to be effective. I also think that lasers could be useful when shooting from retention, for example. One skill that seems to go well with lasers is point-shooting, as you don't want to have to look around for the reflected dot--you'd want to have it somewhere on the target from the get-go if possible.

Those who are unwilling to use the laser as a primary sight should ditch it altogether, unless they have other specific uses for it. For others I think it can be an effective tool that makes some shooters--particularly beginners--better than they otherwise would be. I've done my own experiments at home using Airsoft equipment and inexperienced family members, and got positive results with lasers. I'm considering getting some real lasers for my home defense weapons because of that, although they wouldn't help me much because I've trained so much over the past couple of years that I can reliably hit the COM at 7 yards without using any sights (indexing on the gun as soon as it reaches my visual field, with my focus on the target), which improves my speed. Everybody is different, though, and I think that laser sights can be useful tools as long as they're used properly--by themselves (unless they fail) as the primary sight.

[BullfrogKen]

Shoot a group using just the iron sights.

Hopefully the group impact at your point of aim.

If not, adjust your sights and shoot another group. If your sights do not adjust, then you can't adjust your sights. Take note of where the rounds impacted relative to the sight picture you used.

Turn your laser on and adjust it to coincide with where your iron sights are on target. If you have fixed sights, adjust the laser to coincide for the different point of impact.


Unless your laser is mounted a foot off the bore of the gun, the cant of your pistol to one side or the other, or even completely upside down is negligible. In other words, don't worry about it.


I wouldn't worry your concern about "giving away your location" either. I've seen lasers slow almost every shooter down, though. Either it bounces around too much. Or it's too bright outside to pick up. The ones who aren't slowed down by it didn't need it to make their hits, and used their sights.

[Strykervet]

I like using a laser/light combo. The tandem use can be used to both identify, blind, and target an intruder. But do it right. Don't use a cheapo. Surefire makes the best I know of.

On the other hand, I don't depend on either. I keep fresh batteries in there and check them from time to time. They get rotated out into daily use flashlights too.

Point shooting should be a staple with handguns, followed by sight picture. In a fight, at the ranges we are talking about, you won't have time to do anything else.

A plan works good too. If you haven't been identified by the intruder, then you can flash him, with light and laser, move to cover, then aim. The momentary disorientation will be sufficient to get the uppper hand, hopefully.

Remember, you are on home turf and he is the (unwanted) visitor. Even if he has been inside your home, he is still to the disadvantage.

I find a very bright LED light to be more than adequate. At my ranges, in the home, a focused beam (surefire makes the x200 version in wide and focused beams) almost suffices as a laser on a shotgun.

The most use for a laser I ever found was in the army. The PEQ2 and PAQ4 lasers were good to infinity (you had to adjust aim of course, and zero for 300m) and invisible to the bad guy. You could even use those to blind, via retinal burning, the bad guy without his knowledge.

Note that in houses, particularly ones with lots of mirrors, there are reflective surfaces. These will reflect laser light in a matter not consistent with diffused natural light. Ie, you can be blinded yourself. It does not have to be directly reflected back to you.

So beware. As with everything, there are ups and downs. If you do have a laser, make sure you have a plan to use it. Because of batteries, it requires maintenance and is prone to failure at the worst of times.

Again, don't get a cheap one. They won't stay zero'd and they fail under recoil. Surefire is the only one I really trust, although I have a Glock unit that works well.

Also, the weight of some laser/lights will affect the cycling of the weapon. The Glock is prone to this I hear. I haven't had problems, but I only use the Glock light on the Glock and it is much lighter than any other I have use.

[Strykervet]

Oh yeah, point shooting is the best way to train. Finding the right fit, as far as the weapon, is the issue usually. I find Glocks work well with me, they fit naturally. I hear others say the 1911, and I understand the German Luger is the best. I've seen accurate blindfold shots taken with this.

If you pull your hand like a wild west draw, thumb up and finger pointed, doing it as fast as you can, hold that position and move your head down to the level of your finger. You should be on target --our bodies and minds were designed for this. Believe it or not, video games enhance this.

Now using an unloaded firearm, this should be your combat dry fire practice ritual. With time, you can shoot accurately without the sights at all at short range. That is how the old timer gunslingers did it.

That pretty much rules out the laser. But like I said, I like it in tandem with the light. I find the light to be the superior add on for home defense. I think the high intensity light in combination with the firearm is the best thing since hollow points and buckshot.

[RedAlert]

I've no experience with using lasers on guns. Does the laser provide enough illumination to identify your target? In a really dark room, is that a perp or a family member your laser dot is on?
I would think that a tactical light would be better because it illuminates the target better. Also it would help you better outside the home in the dark of the night.

YMMV

[LGer]

Thank you BullFrog! I got my CPL probably a year or so ago now but my range time is VERY limited. I have no place to shoot except for indoor ranges. When at an indoor range I am all business and am hesitant to experiment in any manner. Gun is always straight up/down and pointed at the target. I've never experimented with the "cant" (hope that I'm using the correct word here) so I have a lot to learn. I am 62 years old and all of my experience prior to my CPL was with rifles/shotguns.

Answers like the kind that you have provided are a huge help to me. I bought the laser because I am not at all experienced with handguns and my vision is not what it once was. My intention at the time was to do exactly what the poster prior to yours, I believe, suggested and use them all of the time. I have had lasic surgery and while it worked as it was supposed to I have difficulty with my vision in certain lighting conditions (dawn/dusk like conditions). Also... I require bi-focals and when I look at the front sight my vision is blurred at a distance. I will get past all of this eventually with lots of practice but right now everything seems awkward to me.

I hate admitting ignorance but when it comes to this.... it's where I am at right now. You all have been very helpful - beyond words helpful! When I set out to do something it is either going to be done right or not done at all.

My sister has told me just recently that I may practice on her small farm if I choose. I never really thought about this until just recently - it's a VERY small farm. If I can find a safe place I am going to take her up on her offer. My experience will grow greatly with a place to experiment safely!

Leon

[Strykervet]

My ankle gun, a S&W 642, has a Crimson Trace lasergrip.

To start with, the sights on a 642 are a bit less than "wonderful", so in low/no light or "quick acquire" I find the laser gets me on target quicker and allows shooting from "other than a proper Weaver stance".

BUT ... I am NOT a fan of any laser that you have to "do something" to activate. I've read too many media stories of negligent discharges while the shooter was trying to find the "on" switch and ended up hitting the trigger. In a stress situation I need less complication, not more. The Crimson Trace is activated automatically when you properly hold the grip, and nothing more. All laser companies make stuff that shoots equally bright/accurate red/green beams of light. This "no thought config" is the main reason I like Crimson Trace stuff compared with the "push this tiny button inches away from your trigger during a high-stress situation" setups.

Just my 2¢
Your finger goes outside the trigger guard. That is where the switch should be located. If not, you either have junk or improperly designed equipment, which equals or exceeds junk.

You should be able to flip the switch on the way to the trigger with little to no delay. But if a bad guy is drawing or aiming at you,

POINT SHOOT!

You don't have the time to lase and glaze at that point. The laser and light are for when YOU have the drop on HIM.

This is what is meant by using it as a crutch. At this point, it is a liability. Not to sound like a Yoga or something, but you need to be the weapon, be the bullet. Point shooting is the ultimate culmintation of this. Everything else should be icing on the cake. For me, it goes: point shoot, iron sights, light, laser, in order of importance. I don't factor in stance because I have seen too many folks work on that, but in real shootings they dance around like marrionettes and shoot around corners. Stance is fine if you have the drop, or clearing a room, whatever, but you should be able to point shoot a close target while, say, leaning against a pole with one foot behind the other. To me, that is more important than stance.

Bottom line is, use the laser, but don't depend on it, and a light trumps a laser. At least to me.

[Strykervet]

I've no experience with using lasers on guns. Does the laser provide enough illumination to identify your target? In a really dark room, is that a perp or a family member your laser dot is on?
I would think that a tactical light would be better because it illuminates the target better. Also it would help you better outside the home in the dark of the night.

YMMV
No, the laser will not identify a target. By definition, a laser is focused beam of light. So much so in fact, that the laser usually appears as a bright dot and you cannot even see what it actually is illuminating.

That is why I say the light is more important than the laser. A tandem setup is more desirable if a laser is to be used.

As someone who has had to identify targets first as a priority, I can vouch for this. If you have kids or are worried about shooting the wrong person, you need the light. You can't take back bullets like words.

A focused beam of white light is the best in my opinion. The only time I felt naked without a laser was in the army on night missions. Then that PEQ2 is your best friend. But again, these lasers are invisible without NODS, and that is their primary use.

Just an afterthought, but I NEVER saw a soldier use a color laser on a firearm. Never. White lights and IR lights and lasers yes, color such as red, green, or blue, no. And yes, you can be identified by using one. Especially pulsing ones. The red ones are not as bad as the other colors, but still can pinpoint you.

Also to bear in mind, accidental discharge of a military laser is the same thing as an AD with a weapon. Lasers are also great for team missions where you need to lase a target for your buddies or for an airstrike (not what we are talking about here, but worth mentioning).

[Frozen North]

I despise lasers. It takes longer to find the little red dot and put it where you want it than it does to just point and shoot. It is silly to use the dot and the sights, if you already have sights on target, why worry about the dot?

I think lasers are a poor replacement for good point shooting. Practice a bunch without using your sights and I bet you will hate lasers too.

For indoor dry fire practice, they are a good thing.

[LGer]

I am going to have to read up on point shooting. I've heard the term before but never really learned what it meant.

It seems to me that if I were to have the time to take a really good aim that I would also have the time to high-tail it out of there or control the situation in another manner. In the absense of experience I try to apply common sense to a statement made so please forgive my thinking out loud (or in writing in this case). What you say "computes"....... :D Thanks!

[Frozen North]

Point shooting... or my understanding of it... is shooting the gun as you would point your finger. Your brain has a talent of being able to aim your finger quickly at a target without much guidance. It is not the most accurate method, but by far the quickest way to get a shot off. With a gun that fits your hand properly and a little practice, you can draw and put two shots in a target in the blink of an eye. No sights needed! It is fun to practice too.

[Manco]

Is it possible that the laser would be an aid to the BG in determining my position in defending myself? I know that there is a very slim chance of this ever happening but is this a concern for any of you?

Yes, that could happen because some of the laser light does get scattered at the source even if the air is clear, but it may well be moot as I don't fancy a shootout in the dark myself, so I'm going to use sources of light anyway, whether it's general illumination, a hand-held flashlight, or a weapon-mounted light. On the other hand, if there is a reason for you to be sneaking around in the dark, then it would be a good idea to be able to quickly and easily turn your lights and lasers off and on as needed.

Even more importantly in the general case, I think, is being able to turn on your laser virtually automatically as you draw, which means that pressure-sensitive switches are probably the best type. Frankly, I don't know how useful other switching systems would be if you needed to use your gun like RIGHT NOW. Maybe you could train for it, like you could with almost anything, but it's one more thing to worry about, and it's probably not quite as convenient or foolproof as a manual safety lever, for comparison.

[JohnBiltz]

If you are point shooting and have a laser the only time it should be hard to see the laser dot is if you would have missed. The idea of point shooting is to practice enough to develop hand and eye coordination so that where your are looking is where your hands and the gun is pointing this is also the same spot where the laser should be pointing. If its not then the shot that would have been taken with just point shooting would have missed. A faster miss gains nothing. The other side of that is if you are really good at point shooting the laser probably doesn't gain you much. If we look at two things: most people report not using their sights after a gun fight; most people's accuracy sucks in a gun fight. It seems to me that iron sights while touted don't get used and are forgotten in haste and most people suck at point shooting. Lasers might be an answer.

I think a lot of people use a laser wrong. It should not be used to make precise shots. It should be used to make fast shots. If its center of mass take the shot, forget precision. When the dot bounces back down after the first shot take another, then another.

Move, you do not want to be standing still. If you have a laser and practice moving while trying to keep the dot on a target in a short while you get pretty good at it. Its a lot easier than trying to keep a set of irons on the target while moving. Its really easy to practice, turn the laser on walk and see if you can keep it on target. You will be real surprised at how hard it is to do at first and how quickly you get better at it.

I've never got the give away my position argument. Most of the time, particularly on the street you are not going to be setting up in ambush or stalking someone. Its going to be a mugger or three and its going to be up close and he/they knows exactly where you are, there is nothing to give away. Once shots are fired being stalked is about as likely as needing that third 17 round magazine that is on your belt. The one time this is not true is if you are home and you retreat to a safe room. What you can do then is turn the laser off or even better pick up that shotgun you have stashed there.

Batteries, my mutant ability is to drain batteries at the worst time. Lasers generally have some mechanism to let you know when they are getting low. When you clean the gun check the batteries. Hopefully you are shooting your carry often enough that is not an issue.

If you reach cover, your eye does not have to be behind the sights. You can hold it out away from you and be observing the dot. If its something like a solid box you could be holding around the edge and looking over the top.

[GLOOB]

Just a distraction. I'd never spend any money on a laser sight. Seeing where the hole went is how I practice point shooting. As for firing behind cover, I don't care where the dot is. I'm firing, anyway, or running or both.

In those instances where someone fires multiple shots at close range and misses them all, the only difference a laser would have made is the guy might have spent more time looking for the dot he never found. Or the dot will light up the target, and the shot will go nowhere near it because of a hurried trigger pull. Same as without the laser.

I suppose there's no downside, if you leave it turned off. :)

A good, low profile red dot, OTOH, is incredibly useful, IMO. But they're even more spendy.

[LGer]

http://www.the-led-warehouse.com/JetBeam-BC40-with-18650-Batteries-and-Charger-p1382.html

Would this be a good flashlight to purchase?

[LGer]

A good, low profile red dot, OTOH, is incredibly useful, IMO. But they're even more spendy.

I don't know what that is..... Could you please provide a link? Thanks!

[DAdams]

I have Crimson Trace 405 grips on two J Frames. I like the grips as grips themselves and practice with both the laser and w/o. I can lay down fire accurately and more rapidly with the laser than attempting to get a sight picture with the sights. Due to practice with and w/o the laser I can get on target with reasonable accuracy, better with the laser than w/o.

I find the best combination on my M&P 340 is XS night sights and the laser. All bases are covered under any circumstance.

I recently added a Crimson Trace to my PM9. Since I only recently installed it and it is a different setup (than the CT 405) and I haven't ranged it yet and the jury is out. I did get the $50 rebate.

I also have a C5Lcompact Viridian green laser and LED light. It will work on anything with a rail. Handgun, rifle etc.

[Manco]

If we look at two things: most people report not using their sights after a gun fight; most people's accuracy sucks in a gun fight. It seems to me that iron sights while touted don't get used and are forgotten in haste and most people suck at point shooting. Lasers might be an answer.

Training can overcome all of these issues and obviate the usefulness of a laser for handgun defense, but the fact is that the vast majority of gun owners--including those who own a gun only for personal or home defense--are not well trained and are unwilling to devote the time, effort, and money (mostly for ammo, if nothing else) that it takes to become well trained. In such cases, a laser can be a useful tool when used as the primary sight (ignoring the iron sights unless the laser fails). Red dot sights are even better in some ways, although they do have a small field of view when used on handguns and are not helpful when the gun is fired quickly from the hip or retention, so there are trade-offs.

Of course, one should continue to practice with the iron sights in case Murphy says that they're needed, and I would wholeheartedly recommend becoming as highly proficient with them as possible, but those who need to be at their best right now and have little time or inclination to train (let's be pragmatic here) should seriously consider getting a laser sight and learning how to use it properly. I think it would make most people better shooters than they would be otherwise.

I think a lot of people use a laser wrong. It should not be used to make precise shots. It should be used to make fast shots. If its center of mass take the shot, forget precision.

This is precisely how I got positive results from testing a laser sight with beginners. They all could achieve decent accuracy using the iron sights while firing slowly, but their defensive shooting stank until I showed them how to use a laser sight, and their improvement was almost immediate because placing the dot was much quicker and more instinctual for them than painstakingly lining up the sights. Like I said earlier, I don't have a use for a laser sight personally because I could achieve similar accuracy at greater speed by point-shooting, but I train fairly intensively while most people do not. I will say, however, that laser sights have aided me in some aspects of my training, even though I won't use one on my defensive pistol.

[Onward Allusion]

Lasers are good tools to use for learning point shooting without having to go to the range. It makes for quick target acquisition in closer quarters and is useful in retention shooting. Anything outside of 7 to 10 yards, you are better off using your sights.

[Claude Clay]

it slows you down hunting for the dot vs point shooting or basic 'front' sight aiming.
if it mounts under the cylinder than it will have you to place your trigger finger along the trigger guard rather than higher up against the cylinder.

[robhof]

I put one(a CT) on my M9 years ago and got ragged about it at the range, but as said above it's great for practicing with an empty gun and I don't know why all the above people are having so much trouble finding the dot, unless it's in broad daylight. I always use it at the outdoor range in the evening and have no problem with quick acquisition and fire, but I practice alot while watching tv, especially the news. It definitely improved my point/shoot groups and my wife, a nonshooter shot center mass with it the 1st time she shot with it.

[gathert]

In regards to a bad guy seeing the origin of the laser, ie you...where are you going to be hiding when things go down that you are worried about your laser giving you away? Wont you already be seen and not hiding in the shadows waiting for something bad to happen in front of you? I see that fear to be totally unfounded.

[doc540]

for all of you hating on lasers, what do you tell someone who can't see well, and darn sure can't sight with a snubnose .38?

Let me guess: spend more time at the range until you become an excellent point-and-shooter

Not many people (especially women) are going to do that.

So, what then, they don't use a laser, can't defend themselves well, and you cluck and say, "Well, it was their fault cause they should've practiced more"?

I hope to God you aren't really like that.

[Loosedhorse]

I would run for cover behind a car, and get into a shootout.

Is it possible that the laser would be an aid to the BG in determining my position in defending myself?
Sure it's possible. It's also possible the laser would allow you to peek from one location, raise the gun in another, and pull the trigger when dot was confirmed on target. No lining up of sights could mean less of you exposed.

Oh, you asked for negatives; there are three clear ones. They cost money, money that could be spent on ammo and range time; they (like any device) can fail, so you can't depend on them...

And they take training to use well. Guns don't instantly make you impermeable to attack, and lasers don't--Poof! Like magic!--make you a better shooter.

In case it's not obvious, I am a big proponent of lasers. I am also a realist.

[gathert]

I'm not knocking lasers at all. If I had guns with rails they would be one them. Heck, I could even do this to my J frame:

http://www.brownells.com/1/1/44441-s-w-j-frame-accessory-rail-s-w-j-frame-accessory-rail-laserlyte.html

[Onward Allusion]

So I went out and installed a LaserLyte on my "When-You-Can't-Carry-a-Real-Gun" NAA Mini in 22LR. Heck, it was on sale and I got it for $79...

I've always considered the NAA 22LR to be a "belly-gun" because I'd never been able to do anything better than a shotgun pattern from 15' with it. Well, let me tell ya - it was the shooter and not the gun. That is one accurate little revolver. I was hitting dime sized groups dead-on with the laser turned on from 15' and about 2" - 3" groups dead-on CoM at 7 yards!!! Mind you, I don't intend on ever using it at 7 yards, but heck, adding a laser certainly it gives a person additional options that were not available in the past.

So going back to the debate - A laser is a tool, that is all it is. Sometimes the right tool makes the job easier.

[LGer]

Yah.... I've pretty well given up on the light giving away my position.... If I did manage to run and hide I am not going to be shooting anyway - I'm going to be hiding - hoping that the BG goes away.

If I were to manage running to cover (my behind a car example) and it were evening I would imagine that the muzzle flash would pretty tell him where I am anyway.

I took your advice and ordered a LED flashlight today. I like the idea of impairing his vision and probably more importantly using it to identify the intruder.

Still not sure what a red dot sight is.... Did some Googling and everything comes up scopes. Just my opinion and I am probably wrong but it seems there would be little use for a scope for personal defense purposes....

Thank you all very much! Learned a lot here!

Leon

[GRIZ22]

but their use as a primary sighting tool is largely fundamentally at odds with good handgunning practices

This is my attitude regarding lasers as well. They can be a great training aid. As someone else pointed out Murphy's Law will happen and it will fail when you are trying to use it in a real life situation. Okay then how should I train for social situations, laser then sights? better is sights then laser. I know my sights will be there so I don't have a laser.

[gathert]

Night sights wont run out of batteries. Unless you keep the guy at gunpoint for 12 years they arent going to stop glowing, but thats highly unlikely.

[Iron Sight]

Its hard to find the Laser dot on a bright day.

[gathert]

Depends on the laser. I put a green one on my Taurus PT945 and didnt have much trouble finding it, especially on those bright green shoot and see targets.

[robhof]

LGer look up the Burris Fastfire, I've got one on a 22 pistol and it is much faster to sight than iron sights, there are other brands, they're also called reflex sights.

[Sam1911]

robhof, he's talking about a Khar -- a concealed carry gun. I've never talked to anyone who mounted optics of any kind on their carry guns.

[doc540]

again, awakened from a deep sleep, no contacts or glasses, and you expect a non-highly-trained civilian to effectively use night sights on a M36 snub?

Let me guess: get a different pistol and train with it until you master point shooting w/o the need for sights or lasers

One size just don't fit all, gentlemen, and it's not an "either/or" proposition.

There's nothing in the world wrong with having a CT laser on a compact, nightstand gun and utilizing it when conditions warrant it.

[LGer]

Yes.... but it seems to be an excellent addition to a nightstand gun. Great warrantee as well! Says it mounts to a Picatinny rail. I am going to look into this further. May be just what I need for my at home gun. This AND a lot of practice..... :D THANKS!

[mljdeckard]

Downside? Not really. If you are really concerned about revealing your position.....don't turn it in in those circumstances.

My only concern is, I think a lot of people think they are a substitute for training.

[LGer]

Shooting more, typing less

Yah.... I feel bad about keeping this going. I AM learning about options and methods that I've never heard of before but Google is my friend as well and I should be using that more and asking less questions of you. Who knows..... I may (probably will) need your help in the future and I don't want you thinking "Oh NO.... NOT him again!!!!".

God bless you guys and a very sincere THANK YOU for passing on some of your experience to me.

Leon

[Manco]

My only concern is, I think a lot of people think they are a substitute for training.

I understand your concern and share it, but pragmatically speaking I think they can be a substitute for training (at least to some degree). :eek: In my opinion, those who are properly and adequately trained should have no use for a laser sight (or an optical sight, for that matter) on a defensive pistol. The problem is that most people aren't willing to train much, but are willing to use a pistol in self-defense regardless--this is the common case that happens all the time.

Although this is only a tiny data set--namely the family members in my household--I've found that with a laser it takes significantly less training to get somebody on target rapidly and accurately in simulated defensive scenarios. While I can't say that this is true for everybody (we can't do that with anything, really), it seems to be for some people, at least. I can't convince everybody to train the right way, so what am I supposed to do, hold out on principle when I know that they can be better defensive shooters with laser sights? The bullet goes where the dot is--yes, when used properly (i.e. leaned on as a crutch), this requires fewer and less developed skills, therefore it can be a substitute for training in some ways and to some degree, which is better than nothing.

[LGer]

I agree Manco. I would guess (just a guess - I have no facts to back it up) that the vast majority of us not using our weapons in a professional capacity will never seek out the proper training. I must admit that I am looking for a quick and dirty solution to plug the gap between newbness (is that a word?) and the lengthy process of acquiring the experience that many of you professionals possess as well.

That being said..... There is no substitute for proper training but the fact that many/most of us will never follow through and get that proper training is why you get these questions.

I would imagine that it is difficult for many of you to put yourselves into a newb's shoes and see things from his perspective. I think that you have shown amazing patience in answering my question. There may come a day when I can help others get through this awkward transition - I hope that I can - but until that day I will use every crutch available to me.

You are spot on my friend! I would much rather that my family and loved ones learn ANY method that works for them rather being force-fed to use the "proper" methods. They can always learn that later (if they choose to - many will not). Helping them with their chosen method of defense is IMHO the best thing that you can do for them.

Some of the things that I have learned from you. Things that anyone can do:

1. Purchase and use a high power flashlight to identify and possibly impair the vision of the BG.

2. Forget my silly worry about a laser giving away my position.

3. Become as good as I can with my laser, if that is my method of choice, for now but also don't forget to practice with my sights in the event of battery failure.

4. Other crutches are available that I had no knowledge of. One of these "new" options may be best for me.

5. Learn the point and shoot method of self defense. THIS one makes SO much sense to me because it is fast and I believe that fast (and accurate to a degree) will be the most important thing in a defensive situation.

6. Practice from different positions, angles, motions. Practice getting to my weapon ASAP.

7. Practice whenever I can and wherever I can. A lot can be practiced at home. Work on improving my skills until they become second nature.

I've probably missed listing a few of the things that I believe that anyone should be able to do - superior skill not required.

I may be saying something controversial here but I find an indoor range to be very boring. I believe that it is very helpful in learning your weapon, improving your trigger skills, aiming properly, and I'm sure a number of other things (getting used to recoil, noise, etc.) BUT I really can't envision a situation where I am going to be standing with perfect form, taking aim at a non moving, non weapon wielding target. If I shoot at something like THAT I am going to jail. In NO WAY am I saying unnecessary - just boring.

I can't wait to get out to my sister's farm and have some FUN learning! I wish that this learning process could be fun for all - we might be better trained.

One more thing if I may...... It would have been easy for you to reply to this thread with a "Get proper training" answer and left it at that. I was in a similar thread on another site and that is the direction the thread went. IMO nothing was learned by anyone. Because you have taken the time to actually answer my questions others reading your words will have learned as well. I'm sure that you are aware that you have helped everyone (not just me) and it is entirely possible that something that you have said may just one day save our lives. May God bless you for that my friends!

Leon

[cwp3420]

My dad and I both use Crimson Trace lasers, his on a Glock 19 and mine on an HK45CT. We use them in conjunction with our night sights on our pistols. However, we like them because he is 88 and I'm 61, and our eyes are just not what they used to be when we were younger. It's easy when you're young and have excellent vision to say someone should just use their iron sights. What happens though as you age and it gets progressively harder to see your iron sights in low light or no light conditions? Do you simply give up shooting or do you find something else that can enhance your shooting and allow you to still carry a weapon for defense of your home and family? When I shoot my HK, I use my iron sights as much as possible, but at night I find the CT laser works great. This is how I view it, being an old geezer and all. I may not be able to hit you with my iron sights at night, but I'll sure put a big hole in your chest where my laser hits!!:evil:

[LGer]

Your post strikes home with me very much. Just today I picked up a .22 cal revolver that I ordered from Bud's for my dad (84) to go shooting with me (62). I was wondering if he would still enjoy putting a few holes in tin (actually aluminum now) cans. I think that it is great that you and your dad still shoot together. If your dad is like mine he was the one who taught you during your earlier years. The least we can do is to include them in the things that they loved to do in their younger years.

My comment has nothing to do with lasers but you have encouraged me to make this as much fun for dad as possible. He deserves it!

I hear you on the age thing as well. I decided on a .22 revolver for dad to make things as easy as possible for him. If I could afford a laser for the .22 it would be on there as well...... maybe one will get on there by the time he reaches 88. ;) Thank you sir! I was concerned that maybe dad was getting a little too old for this but he was so excited when I mentioned it to him. Hearing your story I am now confident that things will go well.

Leon

[cwp3420]

I liked your reply. As you, my dad taught me young to shoot his pistols and rifles. I have enjoyed shooting with him now for probably 53 years or so. He still loves to shoot his pistols, and we go as much as we can. I figure every year left with him is precious, and I know I'll regret it if I don't go now and lose him tomorrow. So, we keep shooting and having fun and trying to outshoot each other. You never know what tomorrow will bring. Have fun with your dad while you can. You can never get the time back once it's gone. Take care, my friend!

[bigggbbruce]

I never intend on pulling my weapon (and never have ) unless I am ready to fire.. I live on 12 acres and it is dark at night.. no lights...

With my night sights and my crimson laser grips... I can level the gun and aquire the target with my laser... BANG..!! BG down... I don't plan on giving him the chance to return fire....

[45Fan]

Lasers have been a great training aid for my wife, sort of a crutch when she first started shooting. Past that, I dont feel that they are reliable enough to depend on for self defense. Batteries can go dead, ambient light can be too bright, just too much can go wrong. It was a great help for me, trying to see why she was shooting the way she did, and helped reenforce the muscle memory involved with point shooting.
When it all comes down though, I still depend on sight alignment, sight picture teaching mt primary marksmanship instructor beat into us in boot camp. It works, as long as my sights are attached, wont let me down, and with good training, becomes second nature to the user.

[Cop Bob]

I own quite a few pistols wit CT Lazers and I absolutely love them.. IMHO here are the pro's and con's...

PRO's: Rapid target acquisition in low light... A Great training tool to show new or rusty shooters problems with trigger control and grip without having to pump a lot of ammo down range... reat psychological tool, it really makes folk think about there immediate future and the futility of pursuit of illegal endeavors.. Allows for accurate shots from behind cover and at odd positions that you may be forced into to get to cover and concealment.. lazers don't care about barrel length, they allow for very accurate shooting with snubbies that have a limited sight radius.. Gives us old folks with failing eyes a more level playing field...

CON's: as previously stated, DO NOT let a lazer compensate for proper shooting techniques, and training, Folks will have a tendency to depend too much on a lazer,.. it in NO WAY makes up for learning the basics, and proper techniques.. it is a tool, NOT A CRUTCH... Batteries do go bad, you have to change them out on a regular basis..
They are expensive.. They don't like to get wet or go swimming.. like everything else, you have to maintain them, batteries, use that little swab that comes with them to wipe out the belly button lint.. They are NOT a cure all.... only proper practice achieves perfection..

[ForumSurfer]

I've never talked to anyone who mounted optics of any kind on their carry guns.

I did. A guy over on glocktalk was adamant about his glock (19 or a 17, can't remember) being easy to conceal with a burris fastfire mounted. The slide was machined and it did sit really low, but there was still a big hoop and a giant freakin window. It just didn't look like "jeans and t-shirt" friendly to me, unless it was one of those moo-moo looking t-shirts the kids love these days...you know, the ones that hang past your thighs?

[Effigy]

I like the idea of Crimson Trace lasers, but I usually rest my trigger finger up there when I'm not ready to shoot. Something to keep in mind if your considering that design. You can retrain yourself to put your finger straight across the trigger guard, but that also depends how long your finger is in relation to the guard.

[DAdams]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m22/dadams111/Handguns/opplanet-crimson-trace-front-activation-compact-lasergrip-for-kahr-arms-polymers-lg-437.png

With the $50 rebate CT is presently running these are about $120.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m22/dadams111/Handguns/P1010008.jpg

CT 405s on a J Frame Centennial M&P 340 with XS night sights. A very nice combination and the battery life is amazing. Great recoil mitigation as-well.

[CMC]

I got a CT grip laser on a S & W 642 and I use it to train myself in point shooting from the hip , It is slow to activate, but once you are trained and learn to point shoot you wont even need it at contact distances

[JerryM]

I tried a couple of guns owned by a friend. One was on a M60, and the other on a Glock
Instead of speeding the target acquisition they slowed it. You can look over the sights and get a shot off faster than if you are looking for the dot.

I concluded that it was not for me, and he agreed. He and another instructor tried them with a timer, and both agreed that they got off an accurate first shot without the laser.

Regards,
Jerry

[JohnBiltz]

I think if I picked up a new gun I will not be as fast as with a gun I've been firing for years. You have to practice with it.

I think if you are shooting at small targets with space behind them, like bottles sitting on a fence, it is true as well. Its not so true if you are shooting at large targets and going for center mass.

I shoot as much with irons as a laser, I am faster with a laser. I'm faster with the first shot and much faster with follow ups.

[bigggbbruce]

I have Crimson Trace and night sights... I only find laser useful in very low light conditions... As home defense, the night sights level the gun the laser gives me general direction to the point of impact. In a real life and death situation (I hope I never face) instinct and practice is what you will truly rely on to place an effective fired round... the laser is an aid to accomplish this... when the sun goes down the laser switch goes on....

[x_wrench]

only 2 things. 1) i would have to buy a new holster. and 2) unless it has an instant on switch, it can give away your position @ night.

[bigggbbruce]

Give away your position..? If you are pointing a gun with a laser at an armed perp, your gun should be fired already and if your hiding and not seen where is the threat... . If the perp is unarmed where is the threat..? Get real..I find these overthought situations funny at least...