Minimum caliber for dog protection


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Boulder
April 26, 2011, 04:12 PM
I have a 32 H&R Mag S&W 332 that I'm considering for dog protection during jogging. What do you guys think of this caliber for dog protection? It is the lightest J-frame I own at about 10 oz. and would prefer it weight-wise to my 442 .38 Spl at 15 oz.

Thoughts?

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Fred40
April 26, 2011, 04:30 PM
I would think that would suffice for your average dog.

A really pissed off Rotty might have other ideas though.

Jamie B
April 26, 2011, 04:30 PM
Depends on the size and ferocity of the dog.

Remo223
April 26, 2011, 04:38 PM
The most famous dog guns were the "velo-dog" revolvers. They were very small caliber. However, these were for very unusual situations. On those antique "penny-farthing" bicycles aka high wheelers, even a tiny poodle could kill you. So you only needed a gun to keep an average dog from getting close to your front wheel.

Your situation is completely different. You don't need to protect yourself from little dogs. You only need to protect yourself from the very dangerous and deadly dogs. But I'll tell ya what, those kinds of dogs are not easy to stop with any gun.

Zoogster
April 26, 2011, 04:40 PM
Well it depends on the dog of course. Considering the majority of dangerous attacks occur with heavily built animals like pit bulls, rottweilers, and similar breeds that appeal to a culture that wants something perceived as the most dangerous, the minimum would be something suitable for human defense as well.
Because of the culture drawn to such animals, it is also such animals that are often the most poorly raised, or raised intentionally vicious.
The skull of many of these animals is quite heavily built, and the slope of the skull allows for many lower momentum rounds to get deflected when they impact at a less than optimal angle.

If you shoot some punk's aggressive dog they might also react in a way that requires shooting them as well. Further necessitating something suitable for a human being.

If you just want piece of mind in having a gun obviously you don't need much, but if you want something to actually stop the most likely of threats you need a typical service round. The .38 special is already on the light end of those. It is not unheard of for such animals to take multiple rounds from responding police officers seemingly unfazed after the first shots.
Some of these are animals that won't even stop an attack for an owner and a large bar or stick is often used for leverage to pry their mouth off something. You want to be able to kill something that won't even stop biting when its teeth or even jaw are being destroyed from a pry bar.
Two or more of such animals is exceedingly dangerous to a single human being, and so each round takes on even more significance in performance.

DM~
April 26, 2011, 05:13 PM
I once was hired by a city to clean out some packs of dogs... I stopped two dog attacks durning that time.

The first was a VERY pissed off german shepherd. He came at me in full attack mode, i had a S&W M-48 22WMR in my coat that i pulled out and fired one shot. He came to a slideing stop, nearly knocking me off my feet. I hit him squarely in the head. The second g. shepherd that was with him, sized things up and went the other direction.

The second was a st. benard, and i had a small pocket auto, chambered in 22LR. He turned at the first shot and took 4 more hits to the body, dropping at about 15 or 20 feet away from me.

"Personally" i'd feel very comfortable with 32H&R with full power loads.

DM

PcolaDawg
April 26, 2011, 05:20 PM
I was attacked in my backyard by a pack of three larger than mid-size dogs. They were true mutts. I was very fortunate that I had my 642, that it had a CT grip, and then it was just becoming dark enough for the laser to show up real well.

I also had plus p hollow points in it. I put the laser on the leader of the pack and squeezed off a shot a lot earlier than I might have if I didn't have the laser helping me. Snub nosed revolvers aren't exactly known for their accuracy.

Anyway, one shot and the leader went down, and it's two companions left so fast it was like they were vaporized. After two years, I saw the two survivors for the first time a couple of weeks ago. And they were still giving my four acres a wide berth.

So I'd say .38 plus p ammo will do the trick. Just don't miss.

rcmodel
April 26, 2011, 05:22 PM
They let joggers shoot dogs in Boulder CO?

How bout you just buy a can of pepper spray!

rc

iblong
April 26, 2011, 05:23 PM
what ever your comfort zone for personal carry,Id prefer 40 or 45 cal.
some dogs are tougher than people.

45Fan
April 26, 2011, 05:25 PM
OK, I guess RCModel beat me to it.

How bout you just buy a can of pepper spray

I have seen dogs take much more than a single hit from a 22, but then it want a head shot. The most I have seen was a Chow, and it took a full magazine from a .45 acp to put it down.
Not that I dont carry when jogging, but if dogs are of a concern, pepper spray would probably be the best option. Its not going to kill a dog, but will turn them the other way in a hurry, and without the retaliation of any passer-by that might not look at the situation the same as you.

19-3Ben
April 26, 2011, 05:27 PM
An air horn.

Really. I've spoken to people who work in dog boarding and doggy daycare places about what they do in the event of a dog fight that can't be settled by a person simply yelling at/tugging on one of the dogs.
Unanimously, the answer has been that a simple air horn is the most effective thing and is universally used around such facilities.
The sound is so sudden and at such a pitch that it just stops dogs right in their tracks.

earplug
April 26, 2011, 05:42 PM
22LR in the head is real quick. 45 ACP in the big middle is not.

If A dog is attacking you, the air horn trick will not help the child who does not have one.
Shooting attacking dogs protects the rest of the human race.

Walking Dead
April 26, 2011, 05:49 PM
Really an air horn! I couldn't tell anybody I carry an air horn for protection. Might as well barrow a purse from the wife and hit the dog with it.

ArchAngelCD
April 26, 2011, 05:55 PM
I can't believe some here are telling the OP they need a 40 S&W or 45 Auto to stop a dog. I guess these are the same people who love to post in the Bear threads you need a 454 Casull as a backup gun and a 50 Cal as a primary to stop Bears...

A shot or two placed correctly from a 32 H&R Magnum will stop any dog out there. It's not a Bear after all. :rolleyes:

rhoggman
April 26, 2011, 06:01 PM
Wild dogs are becoming a problem in many areas around Virginia that I frequent. Never had any that made me fear for my life; however, my feeling is you have to treat them like a wild animal. Wild animals that make advances on me will be not be dealt with kindly. Fortunately I have never been attacked; however, when I go into the woods here in Virginia the least powerful weapon I am comfortable with is a 40 S&W. Usually I carry a .357 as a side arm in addition to whatever hunting weapon I carry.

Pepper spray does not impress me much, and by the time you can effectively use pepper spray you are talking pretty close quarters. There are some major disadvantages to these types of "deterrents". Wind direction comes to mind:( The gel based sprays are generally a one time use. Meaning you should try to empty all the contents onto the animal (bear) for the most effectiveness. Bottom line is deterrents are best suited for people who cannot or will not protect themselves with a gun. Definitely not the best option, but if you are skilled, or it is your only option then go for it. When it comes to my safety I would rather have the real canned heat, than an actual can full of a spicy substance. Bears for instance are not exactly push overs, and have been known to circle around people who have wounded them to get their revenge. I would rather not be hunted so if I absolutely must protect myself from a dog or any other predator my option would be to completely disable the animal.

For my neck of the woods then.... 40S&W high cap pistol is the minimum, and the ideal protection would be .357 Mag, or greater power revolver.

Karl Hungus
April 26, 2011, 06:10 PM
I suggest changing your route. It makes a whole lot more sense than putting yourself in a dangerous situation and the very real possibility of violent retribution or a huge legal hassel.

webfox
April 26, 2011, 06:13 PM
A lot of issues come to mind, but I'd go with pepper spray. You can't jog there again if you kill someone's dog. They might shoot back at you next.

Spray and call the cops.

(I'm assuming a single dog in a suburban neighborhood. If it's multiple dogs like rhoggman mentions, then I don't know what to say other than have the authorities take care of feral dogs. I wouldn't take on a pack of feral dogs with less than a pump shotgun.)

hmphargh
April 26, 2011, 06:24 PM
.700NE should take care of it.

Seriously though, I can't imagine carrying the weight of a firearm while running. A small air horn would be the absolute maximum I would consider. It will scare the dog away and will get the attention of anyone in the area. Of course, I am not you, so if you are happy with carrying that weight, I would take whatever is lighter.

Ole Coot
April 26, 2011, 06:44 PM
I found wasp and hornet spray works 99.9% of the time backed up with a little Beretta 21A in 22lr.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
April 26, 2011, 06:45 PM
I agree!
Get the spray that sprays out to 25 feet!

Frozen North
April 26, 2011, 06:53 PM
I am a former telephone guy and I have seen my share of nasty dogs and have been bit several times. Climbing over peoples fences to access a tap or ped in their neighbors back yard can be risky business.

A gun was not an option on the job. I would have had a swat team on me!

Pepper spray shuts them up, even the scary scary ones. It shuts them down and they run away. The best part is that you have none of the liability, police, or angry pet owners that comes with a bullet. They always will say that you viciously attacked their poor little pookie and will never believe their sweet doggie wanted a chunk of your hide.

Big collies and German shepherds are trouble. Spray first, ask questions later!

A 32 Mag is plenty of gun, but spray works great on dogs! Ask your mail man, I bet he has a can too.

walking arsenal
April 26, 2011, 07:05 PM
A stick.

Hunt480
April 26, 2011, 07:08 PM
I'm pleading the 5th on this one,,,

clutch
April 26, 2011, 07:17 PM
Based on many years of cycling, I've never had a dog that didn't back off if I barked back at it.

Now if your fear of dogs is so bad you shoot one, you better consider the dogs master and his displeasure.

Clutch

Strykervet
April 26, 2011, 07:33 PM
22LR in the head is real quick. 45 ACP in the big middle is not.

If A dog is attacking you, the air horn trick will not help the child who does not have one.
Shooting attacking dogs protects the rest of the human race.
Shot a dog in my youth, a road kill that was still suffering. Five shots with a .22 to the head didn't do it. Had to run an acre square back to the house, quite upset, to get a shotgun to dispatch my poor feral friend. So sad...

Strykervet
April 26, 2011, 07:38 PM
While I'm at it, I would recommend a revolver for dog specific control. A couple of ratshot up front, followed by more serious rounds. Usually ratshot or a .410 with birdshot will make them tuck and run. But if that doesn't do the trick, use what you use on bad guys.

All that said, bear spray works better. Seriously. They have very sensitive noses. If it will stop a bear, it will certainly stop a dog. Also, most dogs will back away if you stand up to them. They want to assert their dominance, not get into a scuffle.

No reason to kill little Johnnies escaped pet if not expressly necessary. And don't use a .22. We aren't exterminating living beings the way the Nazis did to lower costs.

Above all, be humane.

Strykervet
April 26, 2011, 07:40 PM
Based on many years of cycling, I've never had a dog that didn't back off if I barked back at it.

Now if your fear of dogs is so bad you shoot one, you better consider the dogs master and his displeasure.

Clutch
Roger that. Shoot my dog and you better be prepared to shoot me because you got one hell of a beating coming.

And I can't afford to pay your medical bills, so keep that in mind too.

19-3Ben
April 26, 2011, 07:45 PM
Based on many years of cycling, I've never had a dog that didn't back off if I barked back at it.

Huge +1. As a cyclist the general wisdom is to just spray them in the face with your water bottle and they back off immediately. Never had to do it, but I know a few who have and it worked well.

Strykervet
April 26, 2011, 07:47 PM
22LR in the head is real quick. 45 ACP in the big middle is not.

If A dog is attacking you, the air horn trick will not help the child who does not have one.
Shooting attacking dogs protects the rest of the human race.
Wrong, been there done that. You'd be surprised at the tenacity of life. I fired 5 rounds directly into the brainpan of a Rhodesian Ridgeback mix, a feral dog but childhood hound that was gravely injured, and he pulled through until I could get the shotgun.

Use the least amount of force possible. A can of mace is not that heavy, and trust me, it works.

Tennessee Ned
April 26, 2011, 07:48 PM
Just carry a fanny pack full of kittens. In case of a dog attack, deploy countermeasures! ;)

NMGonzo
April 26, 2011, 07:48 PM
.357

SpaceFrank
April 26, 2011, 07:50 PM
When I saw the thread title, my first thought was "depends on what's attacking your dog..."

scythefwd
April 26, 2011, 07:53 PM
any single mut smaller than 80 lbs, I'll use a stick. Anything larger and I'll have to get personal... I don't cary when I run.

MCgunner
April 26, 2011, 08:00 PM
I did a night in county lock up for defending myself against a dog attack. It was tossed out and never went to court, just sayin'. Lock up wasn't fun and the lawyer bill was 2K. A 115 grain +P worked, though, from my Kel Tec. It was a chow dog came in MY yard and attacked me and my 2 cats.

I carry a small can of pepper gas now.

Frozen North
April 26, 2011, 08:05 PM
Oh, one more piece of wisdom I have learned in the urban, dog infested jungle....

When you hear the bark and know they are on you STOP in your tracks and face them. Most of the time, this will end the encounter all together. Never underestimate how quickly a dog can close a gap and grab you good! By the time you turn to jump a fence or climb a tree, they are gonna have ya! You cannot outrun or outmaneuver a dog!

Spray! Spray them good! Don't hesitate to spray, it won't cause them any harm that you would care about anyway. Spray it up their nose and deep in their throat when they bark.

gordy
April 26, 2011, 08:06 PM
A few years back, I was out feeding my 3 labs.
There were 4 dogs coming out of the shed.
One very large (90 to 100 lb. male lab) who was not my dog.
Was having a good time in my shed with the 3 female dogs of mine.
I had to get my 357 to let him know to go home.
The first shot I put over his head to tell him to go home.
The shot really pissed him off. As I was stepping back to get away from him I shot one more round. This one went into his chest and came out the other side.
He was even more angry. He was hurt and still coming.
One more to the head put him down.
I was a little pissed that the 357 didn't put him down right away.
It was a HP, but it did not expand at all. It was like ball ammo. I found the bullet in the dirt.
I am convinced that you want a slower bullet that will expand on impact.
Your choice will work good.
PS- We had puppies a short time latter. 3 black and 2 brown and one yellow.

Deltaboy
April 26, 2011, 08:08 PM
I raised chicken as a boy and I killed 40 + dogs over the years with a 22 Rifle using HP ammo. I have killed 8-10 using my Ruger MKII with a 6 inch barrel. A 32 H&R Magnum will do the job. Shot placement is key.

You can also carry a brass headed cane. I sent 1 pit to the meet Jesus using my Brass Balled Oak Cane. 1 2 handed blow on top of his head ended his life. I looked around and went on with my walk.

Jim NE
April 26, 2011, 08:24 PM
In the non-firearm section of THR. I ran into several strong opinions about pepper spray. Many folks are convinced that it's the best protection against Grizzly bears. Not because it has the stopping power of a .357 or .45LC, but because there are times when a gun leads to other problems, as other people on this thread have pointed out with the dog scenario. I really don't have an opinion about pepper spray, as I don't have direct experience with it, but it sounds like something worth investigating.

I should mention that several years ago in my hometown, a pitbull attacked a HORSE, if you can believe it. The responding officers shot the dog 8 or 9 times with either .38's or 9mm's before it died. Of course, pitbulls move quickly, and the cops may not have been trained to shoot such creatures, but regardless, it demonstrates the challenges of that approach. The horse had to be destroyed, BTW.

Here's what I'd do: carry that .32 mag as a backup, and use the pepper spray FIRST. If you find the spray works, then you you've got your solution. If it doesn't, you've got a gun.

Remo223
April 26, 2011, 08:55 PM
Pit bulls are very hard to kill...even with a gun.

It doesn't matter what kind of animal you are defending against, the best thing you can have is your own dog. The dog will get between you and whatever is attacking and will take the heat off of you long enough for you to decide whether to fight or flee. If you flee, your dog may not live though. If it is a dog that is attacking, the dog will automatically go after your dog before going after you.

Dogs also make good jogging companions unless you run marathon like distances in hot weather. Dogs can't do that. If you do decide on a canine jogging companion, let me offer a little bit of advice. Obviously you do not want anything stocky. But perhaps not so obvious to many folks is that you do not want anything with a pug face, short snout, or massive round head and wide jaw. Long narrow heads and snouts are preferred. This is because dogs cool their bodies partly with their tongues and snouts. The longer the better.

For a faithful body guard you need intelligence. So don't pick out something known for stupidity. German shepherds are obvious choices. Huskies are very tough for their size...a little tougher than most other breeds of equal body weight and body type but they aren't smart and not renown for obedience. A german shepherd husky cross would be a nice mix. Standard poodles are also a good choice to cross something with.

SleazyRider
April 26, 2011, 09:05 PM
Pepper spray will put any dog on it knees ... assuming the wind is blowing in the right direction (which is not a good assumption!).

You might consider a sjambok, from Cold Steel. It's light in weight, and available on Ebay for under 20 bucks. Since I began walking my dog with it, I leave my .380 at home.

hmphargh
April 26, 2011, 09:07 PM
Well said Remo, another consideration is that you don't have to carry a dog for protection, the dog carries itself.

It should probably be mentioned that depending on where you live you may need to shave the dog's coat back in the summer if you plan to run with it, even if you typically leave the coat long when not exercising with it, this is especially true for German Shepherds, Huskies, and similar dogs. If you do decide to go the dog route, you may also consider an Australian Shepherd, Border Collies or a cross containing one of those two dogs, they are incredibly smart, do well in hot and cold weather, and have a good temperament, though they are prone to hip dysplasia.

macadore
April 26, 2011, 09:13 PM
Dogs can weigh 150-200 pounds. Use the same caliber you would use for humans.

gofastman
April 26, 2011, 09:21 PM
An air horn.

Really. I've spoken to people who work in dog boarding and doggy daycare places about what they do in the event of a dog fight that can't be settled by a person simply yelling at/tugging on one of the dogs.
Unanimously, the answer has been that a simple air horn is the most effective thing and is universally used around such facilities.
The sound is so sudden and at such a pitch that it just stops dogs right in their tracks.
An air horn powered by pepper spray!

TYFOOON
April 26, 2011, 09:22 PM
In oregon, under law, if a dog is off leash on public property or your private property than it is considered to be at large and can legally be shot for being a nuisance or a threat.

The holy'r than thou "you shoot my dog I'll shoot you!" Please. Go to prison for acting an ass. Whatever. Your dog attacks someone, me or mine, one bite and it's toast if you're not there to wrangle it.

I was jogging one day and heard a man screaming. I drew my (don't laugh, P3AT) and entered his back yard to assist. He was being torn apart by his own dog (pit) in his own back yard. I started yelling "I have a gun, do you need assistance!" He begged and screamed for me to "shoot the dog!" While I was trying to decide where to shoot this dog I realized there was another pit now on my six oclock and getting really ugly. I turned raised the gun and prepared to shoot it in the mouth or chest just as two sherrifs deputies came through the back gate with their guns drawn.

Realizing I was now aiming in their direction I dropped the gun, reached for the sky and yelled that I was a CHL holder and a passer by. The first deputy entered past me, the second picked up my gun and shoved it in his pocket about the time the first deputy fired a three shot burst into the pit. Issue over.

They thanked me, informed me of the prior issues with this dog, and called animal contol for the second Pit. To this day I am really glad I did not have to fire the .380 at a 60 lbs or so dog.

Animal Mother
April 26, 2011, 09:23 PM
Walking Dead said:Really an air horn! I couldn't tell anybody I carry an air horn for protection. Might as well barrow a purse from the wife and hit the dog with it.

bwahaha!! Walking Dead, you really crack me up. Honestly, an air horn, while effective just makes me think of a rape whistle. I'd probably stick with mace.

22-rimfire
April 26, 2011, 09:42 PM
Pepper spray if you are concerned in an urban environment.

Hangingrock
April 26, 2011, 10:11 PM
I do a lot of walking in a rural area which is populated with various breeds. Most I get along with others require countermeasures. Your demeanor and a medium weight walking stick usually deter aggressive behavior. Should those counter measures fail your CCW may be required which in my case would be G17 or MP9. I’m not into compact or subcompact weapons.

ants
April 26, 2011, 10:29 PM
... you always jog with a friend who is slow.

You don't need to outrun the dog.
You just need to outrun your friend.

;)

mbt2001
April 26, 2011, 11:00 PM
Pepper spray!!!!!

PEPPER SPRAY!!!!!!!!

1st off you can start a feud shooting a dog...

2nd, I knew a guy that hit a pit bull that had his dander up with a .45 twice. The dog ran off, had an operation, and showed up 2 months later.

1stmarine
April 26, 2011, 11:13 PM
There is a little keltec PF9 I think in 9mm parabellum. It is a nice little package with 7+1 hollow points you can take care of any dogs and crocks
if they show up.
it is a 9mm in a 32ACP type of package.

788Ham
April 26, 2011, 11:53 PM
Theres a sptg gds store here in town, they have bear spray for sale, large container. On the outside pkg, it states "more powerful than police pepper spray". Now I don't know, I've never sniffed much PD pepper spray, but the capsicum pepper listed is 200% hotter than any other on the market, 35% more than what the PD's carry. I sure wouldn't want to spray any of my pup's with it.

Lucky Derby
April 26, 2011, 11:59 PM
Several years ago I was in the shower when my then 10 y.o. son came running into the bathroom. He was yelling that the neighbor's dog (pit) had dug a hole under the fence and was in our yard, attacking our German Shepherd. He said his mom, my wife, was out back trying to seperate them by spraying with water from the hose. It wasn't working.
I got out of the shower, grabbed the can of pepper spray from my duty belt, handed it to him, as I was still naked, and told him to take it to his mother. I put on a pair of pants, grabbed my P220 .45 and headed out the door.
When I got there the Pit was scrambling back to his own yard, through the hole he had dug under the fence. Our shepherd was pawing at his face. You could see the red pepper spray on his fur. My wife had sprayed them both, and they both immediately went their sepperate ways.

Smaug
April 27, 2011, 12:15 AM
Some great experience here. It seems that the least macho solution is often best: Pepper spray, hornet spray, or an air horn. It's even harder to miss with an air horn than pepper spray.

Hornet spray is usually in a damned big can. Too big for jogging. So pepper spray it is. Even against some wind, I think it would go far enough to do the trick. Remember, their noses are a million times more sensitive than ours, and their ears are too.

1stmarine
April 27, 2011, 12:18 AM
The bear peper cans are really mean with long reach. Even for personal/home defense. More powerfull and still manageable in size. I am not an expert but I read a good article about this in a magazine.

mljdeckard
April 27, 2011, 12:50 AM
Um, no. I don't trust pepper spray to reliably stop humans, I'm not going to depend on it to stop a dog I am seriously afraid of.

I've been chased by enough dogs in my life to know the difference between loud ones and dangerous ones. If a dog is serious enough and big enough to be a significant threat, it will likely weigh 50 lbs or more. If it is dangerous enough that I need to use deadly force to put it down, I won't assume that little bullets will work any more than I would assume that little bullets would stop a human attacker. If the threat is not grave, it isn't worth shooting at all.

As for this talk about not shooting a dog because you will anger the owner, the owner better not ever allow their animal to become a threat. In this state, animals are a strict liability. The owner is responsible for everything their dog does. Train them and control them. If you had control of them, no one would find it necessary to shoot them in the first place.

Steve C
April 27, 2011, 12:58 AM
Google "dog repellent spray". There are specific repellents used for dogs carried by postal workers, etc. Dogs don't have tear ducts so tear gas doesn't work on them. A spray bottle of household ammonia works too as a homemade option and if the wind is in the wrong direction won't be as hard on you as pepper spray.

StrikeFire83
April 27, 2011, 12:58 AM
Shoot my dog and you better be prepared to shoot me because you got one hell of a beating coming.

And I can't afford to pay your medical bills, so keep that in mind too.

Um, if your dog's off its leash, snarling/being aggressive/threatening my family, and has managed to make its way onto my 5 acres, it's gonna get shot. Although unless it's in the process of attacking me, I'll probably walk inside and grab the pump shotgun instead instead of drawing my CCW. Dogs are not people and the considerations that apply to people don't apply to dogs. I'm not going to let aggressive/dangerous dogs roam my property, they get shot. Period.

If your dog is friendly and just lost, I'll just put him in the laundry room and figure out who his owner is.

Off my property things get trickier. If there are so many aggressive dogs in your neighborhood that you have to plan to shoot them, how about investing in a decent treadmill?

deacon8
April 27, 2011, 01:43 AM
To answer the original question: I think the .32 H&R or the .38 Special would be fine (obviously enough to kill a dog). However, to further answer the question, my minimum choice would be a .22 LR revolver. My perferred minimum would be a .22 Magnum revolver. Those are my thoughts.;)

ArchAngelCD
April 27, 2011, 02:15 AM
This thread is as bad as the Bear threads!

blindhari
April 27, 2011, 02:15 AM
I am an old man now. More than 40 years ago I was staioned in Berlin. East Germans maintained trained dogs between the concertina and the Belin Wall. We trained once a week on killing dogs, armed and unarmed. I went to work for the Post Office when I got out of the Army and retired after 35 years. Pepper spray, oil of capscium was required carry for every delivery person and it didn't always work. At my age I now have a CC in 38 special. 12ounces in weight and a lot of rounds in practice. Any time an animal attacks you report it to police. If you have to kill or injure someones pet, find a lawyer and offer to sue in Civil court. I have never seen any one continue to complain of an injured or dead dog when they are charged as maintaing a vicious animal facing court awarded financial penalties. All you need to do is find a shark lawyer and offer him a percentage of all damages awarded for stress, anxiety, pain and suffering.

blindhari

jim goose
April 27, 2011, 08:47 AM
DO any of you train with stuffed animals?

ADKWOODSMAN
April 27, 2011, 09:08 AM
20 ga. bangstick. That should do the trick--would look like a hiking staff!

On second thought, how about a lighter and a can of hair spray--Is that burnt dog hair I smell?

PcolaDawg
April 27, 2011, 10:20 AM
Roger that. Shoot my dog and you better be prepared to shoot me because you got one hell of a beating coming.

And I can't afford to pay your medical bills, so keep that in mind too.
In the situation where I had to shoot a dog, it was on my property, had already threatened my wife, and was threatening me. I gave it every chance to leave my property. Instead, it came after me.

If a dog is on my property acting that badly, I'm going to shoot it. If the owner then comes onto my property to give me 'one hell of a beating', then the owner is dumber than the dog because I am very prepared to shoot anyone who comes onto my property with the intent to do me grievious bodily harm.

And don't worry, there won't be any medical bills. :)

PedalBiker
April 27, 2011, 10:30 AM
When I was a kid I made my own dog spray. It was 50% rubbing alcohol and 50% ammonia. It worked once - not a large study, I know.

I lived on a country road, I had only one direction to jog. The dog I hit with the spray never bothered me again and the dog didn't seem to have any lasting ill effects either.

I wouldn't count on an air horn. My dog is nearly deaf.

I would recommend pepper spray for most encounters. It's really hard to tell a true attack from the regular turf spats most domestic dogs are prone to. The problem is, though, it's usually too late once you're certain.

I think dog owners should be held a whole lot more accountable.

PcolaDawg
April 27, 2011, 10:37 AM
When I was a kid I made my own dog spray. It was 50% rubbing alcohol and 50% ammonia. It worked once - not a large study, I know.

I lived on a country road, I had only one direction to jog. The dog I hit with the spray never bothered me again and the dog didn't seem to have any lasting ill effects either.

I wouldn't count on an air horn. My dog is nearly deaf.

I would recommend pepper spray for most encounters. It's really hard to tell a true attack from the regular turf spats most domestic dogs are prone to. The problem is, though, it's usually too late once you're certain.

I think dog owners should be held a whole lot more accountable.
I ran cross-country in high school and college, and never carried any kind of weapon. The few times I was harrassed by dogs, I would pick up a stick, face the dog and slowly back out of the situation. If I was running in an area where I had been harrassed by dogs before, I'd pick up a stick before I got there, just to be ready.

Not the best of defense plans, but it was the best I could come up with at the time. Today, I can't run anymore, but I do ride a bike. Fortunately, it's a lot easier to carry a firearm while riding a bike (if you wear baggy shorts). :cool:

PRM
April 27, 2011, 10:37 AM
Had a co-worker say one time he had a stray dog that was a problem at his house. Said, "he shot it 19 times with a 9MM, 9mms are no good." I don't think caliber had a lot to do with it.

I grew up in a rural farming community where just about everybody had a .22 rifle or pistol in their truck. They did whatever we needed ~ from strays to raccoons to coyotes raiding the chicken house.

When we would kill hogs and put up meat ~ yep, out came the .22.

Even got a friend who is a wildlife officer who uses a .22 to kill feral hogs.


Minimum caliber ~ I'd say .22. Are there better ~ yep. Whats most important is being able to hit with whatever you have.

Guillermo
April 27, 2011, 10:43 AM
I wish Sam would come by.

He surely has an opinion

http://www.pets-r-great.org/magazine/issue1/cover.html

Jim NE
April 27, 2011, 11:02 AM
ADKWOODSMAN, you mentioned a "20 ga. bangstick." Is that like what the undersea divers use against sharks? I've always wondered about those. Are they commercially available? What about legality... Seems like it might be considered the ultimate sawed off shotgun by the police, but it's an interesting idea.

macadore
April 27, 2011, 12:42 PM
Shoot my dog and you better be prepared to shoot me because you got one hell of a beating coming.

And I can't afford to pay your medical bills, so keep that in mind too.

Statements like make dog owners and gun owners look bad. You dog does not have the right to murder someone just because it's your dog.

jim goose
April 27, 2011, 12:46 PM
And you dont have the right to murder someone's dog because it barks at you, steps on your land while lost, or gives you nightmares at bedtime. Call animal control.

Guillermo
April 27, 2011, 12:47 PM
Statements like make dog owners and gun owners look bad. You dog does not have the right to murder someone just because it's your dog

thank you for stepping in before a moderator has to : )

Sniper X
April 27, 2011, 12:55 PM
Around here, it is USUALLY a Pit Bull and although I have never had to shoot one yet....I feel confident I would get by with the two calibers I carry, .45acp and .357mag. I would not feel confident with anything under 38spl +p or at least 9mm or .40 because the Pits that attack here are either fighting dogs, or so abused they act like attack dogs.

PRM
April 27, 2011, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strykervet View Post
Roger that. Shoot my dog and you better be prepared to shoot me because you got one hell of a beating coming.

And I can't afford to pay your medical bills, so keep that in mind too.

In the situation where I had to shoot a dog, it was on my property, had already threatened my wife, and was threatening me. I gave it every chance to leave my property. Instead, it came after me.

If a dog is on my property acting that badly, I'm going to shoot it. If the owner then comes onto my property to give me 'one hell of a beating', then the owner is dumber than the dog because I am very prepared to shoot anyone who comes onto my property with the intent to do me grievious bodily harm.

And don't worry, there won't be any medical bills. PcolaDawg

Well stated!!! I'm not inclined to take beatings. Giving somebody "one hell of a beating" is an easier statement to make on the internet than to follow through with in real life.

This thread is getting way off track.

Guillermo
April 27, 2011, 01:22 PM
sadly I have had to shoot a few dogs.

Mostly it was on the farm...chicken killers. I was a teen and the only gun I usually had with me was my JC Higgens 22 rifle. I can tell you that even a good shot will not drop a medium size dog.

More to the point of the OP I was hiking with my dog and had a German Shepherd come blasting out of the scrub with no warning. It didn't attack me, it attacked my dog. He was so quick that if he had come after me there is no way that I could have cleared leather.

Big sucker...a truly beautiful animal. He had my dog down and was mauling him pretty good. I couldn't chance a head shot due to its proximity to my dog. Had no choice but to shoot it in the mid section, at an angle.

357 magnum ripped right through the animal. Made a yelp and collapsed.

My dog scrambled out and ran to me. Even with the thick hair around the neck he was bleeding profusely. Because my dog needed medical attention I didn't get to investigate the Shepherds wounds.

After the vet was through shaving and stitching my dog I went back. By then the vultures had the torso ripped apart. There was a collar but no tags.

The coat was not in too bad of shape so I don't know if it was a feral or someone's pet.

The whole thing sucked.

Lessons learned?

a blitz attack is darned near impossible to defend

357 works well on small animals, although overpenetration needs to be considered

carry your gun where you can get it quickly

Remo223
April 27, 2011, 02:47 PM
^ seems to me you left out the most important lesson in your conclusion

that is your dog was more important than your 357 for defense.

Wade Wilson
April 27, 2011, 03:18 PM
I would consider a new jogging route, if you are willing to run in a crazed dog infested area with a pistol and fire off live rounds in a neighborhood full of families instead of just running somewhere else then I dont know that to tell you. I am all for conceal carry and personal protection, but if you know you are literraly going to run into trouble, then why wouldnt you run someplace else?

But to answer you question I would probably carry a six shot .327 or a can of mace, the dog that is most likely going to bite you is a small dog that you can punt away.

Lunie
April 27, 2011, 03:39 PM
Wish I had taken pictures of what a dog can do to an 800 lb steer...

Functionally removed the muscle from the left rear leg and the associated hide. If you can picture slicing off all of your calf muscle below the knee, and yanking it out so the muscle drags the ground behind your ankle... you'd have an idea of what I mean.

Luckily, the steer did survive, just never did much walking after that...

Knowing that dogs can and have killed humans, why not carry something that offers the same defensive qualities you'd use for stopping human attackers? As with human predators, you never know what kind of bad animal may end up in a "good" and "safe" place.

JMHO

Justin Holder
April 27, 2011, 03:41 PM
A 32 magnum should be plenty gun, just use quality hollow points, stay away from lead wad cutters. I think Federal makes a good 85gr. JHP load.

If you want to use pepper spray because you are afraid of the repercussions from using deadly force on a dog that is your prerogative. But I see it this way, when the moment of truth comes who are you going to be more afraid of? The 60 pound pit chewing on your leg or the pits owner?

I'd feel safer carrying a long strong stick than a can of mace.

ADKWOODSMAN
April 27, 2011, 03:49 PM
Jim ne--no clue if they are available. I have only seen them used on shark-TV.

Guillermo
April 27, 2011, 04:59 PM
that is your dog was more important than your 357 for defense

maybe you are right and my dog acted as a decoy...allowing me time to draw

but maybe the shepherd would not have attacked me

no way to know

I do know that the whole thing sucked

my dog got hurt, had a big vet bill, had to shoot a dog

it was all bad

Ben86
April 27, 2011, 05:01 PM
.32 will probably be fine, supposedly .22 LR works good as well. If it was me I'd prefer to carry the .38sp though. It's a more substantial caliber that is good for other threats if you catch my drift. Pepper spray also works good on dogs. Except pitbulls on PCP, gotta watch those.

the dog that is most likely going to bite you is a small dog that you can punt away.

This is so true, small dogs bite way more often.

Also, research dog behavior and you will get a better understanding of when they are just trying to intimidate or they mean business. Often when they mean business they don't do much barking, mostly biting.

macadore
April 27, 2011, 05:03 PM
I would consider a new jogging route, if you are willing to run in a crazed dog infested area with a pistol and fire off live rounds in a neighborhood full of families instead of just running somewhere else then I dont know that to tell you. I am all for conceal carry and personal protection, but if you know you are literraly going to run into trouble, then why wouldnt you run someplace else?

I can tell you don't jog or ride a bicycle much. There are irresponsible dog owners everywhere. I ride on a trail built and maintained by the city for walking, jogging, and bicycling. I ride every day because my cardiologist said I would be facing bypass surgery in the near future if I didn't start exercising. I am also taking blood thinners to keep the blood from clotting around the stints he put in my heart. Because of this, I bleed and bruise easily. If a dog rips my calf open and jerks me off my bike, I can easily bleed to death. I don't intend to lay there passively while this happens. That's why I carry a Glock 32 and a tourniquet. I will remove the threat, or threats, call 911 to request an ambulance and police, and then try to control the bleeding.

I know dogs real well and have become quite agile on my bike. I have been attacked several times and have always managed to avoid being bitten. However, one never knows. Finding a place in the world without irresponsible people acting irresponsibly is unrealistic.

DM~
April 27, 2011, 05:29 PM
IF my dog comes to your house, is trying to bite you or your family, and you shoot it... I'll come get it and burry it. IF your dog comes to my house and tries to bite me or my family i ASSURE you i WILL kill it, and i think MY neighbors are smart enough to NOT try to come over and kick my ass for doing so.

ANYONE who thinks they will kick someones ass for protecting another human being from a dog, is a nut case and at least here, they will not be treated any better than their dog was.

Like i said before, i was hired to clean out some dog packs, and although it was a dirty job, i did it and shot more dogs than i'll admit to. If anyone thinks a 32 H&R mag. with full power loads won't do the job, then THEY need more practice with that weapon!

DM

joed
April 27, 2011, 05:31 PM
An air horn.

Really. I've spoken to people who work in dog boarding and doggy daycare places about what they do in the event of a dog fight that can't be settled by a person simply yelling at/tugging on one of the dogs.
Unanimously, the answer has been that a simple air horn is the most effective thing and is universally used around such facilities.
The sound is so sudden and at such a pitch that it just stops dogs right in their tracks.

My father taught me this one when I was in my 20's. Use the right air horn and you can stop any dog attack, I don't care how vicious they are, unless they're def.

Jim NE
April 27, 2011, 05:46 PM
Would this be a legitimate application for a Taurus "Judge"? Would a .410 blast put a large aggressive dog down at point blank range? Or are Judges, being part shotgun, even legal for concealed carry?

I don't know, I hate aggressive dogs, but I hate their owners even more. I think a person who establishes a pattern of owning animals like that should spend some time in the clink. Some people (I said "SOME") who own huge aggressive dogs are ex-cons who can't own guns because of their previous criminal record. They're compensating.

Karl Hungus
April 27, 2011, 06:22 PM
They're compensating.

Agreed, but the exact same thing can be said about somebody who instead of doing the rational thing and choosing a rabid bull-mastiff free jogging route decides to go Dirty Harry on every pup who barks at him from behind it's Invisible Fence.

On a weekly basis I'm around a couple dogs who have put people in the hospital. I've never felt the need to strap.

THR has no shortage of hyper-sensative types who complain about people using the term "sniper rifle" or posters who say that anybody who shot their dog would get a knuckle sandwich. "You're making gun owners look bad!!!" they whine. Those guys aren't making gun owners look half as bad as the myriad of "What gun for bear/coyote/skunk/Lassie/chickadee protection?" threads choking this forum.

Trust me - non gun culture people who happen upon threads like this laugh and consider that maybe the anti-gun loons are right - that all gun owners are paranoid freaks. Get a grip people.

Ben86
April 27, 2011, 08:36 PM
Would this be a legitimate application for a Taurus "Judge"? Would a .410 blast put a large aggressive dog down at point blank range? Or are Judges, being part shotgun, even legal for concealed carry?


They are legal for CC, in most states anyway. I don't have any experience with .410 or that gun, but I have heard that they spit out shot in more of a donut pattern than a closely clustered group like you get out of a smooth bore barrel.

Cosmoline
April 27, 2011, 08:58 PM
I've had run-ins with a lot of dogs on the roads and trails. It's a problem, but it's one problem I'm not sure a firearm is a good response to.

Let me ask you this--what caliber gun are you comfortable shooting down towards a fast-moving attacking dog while you're kicking at said dog? What if the dog lunges up at your shoulders, are you comfortable shooting across your own chest with your other arm in the field of fire? Are you comfortable shooting TOWARDS the owner who may be running to get the dog? Certainly you can shoot earlier, but that means killing dogs that may present no threat, and it means some very uncomfortable confrontations, allegations and police involvement. Not fun! People get weird when you shoot their dogs. You could end up getting shot and killed yourself over it. Obviously things are different on big tracts of rural land you own, but that's not the scenario here. We're talking about discharging firearms on public roads and trails which is not a minor matter.

Thinking back on the various charges and confrontations, as well as the various bites I've taken, I can think of few where any firearm would have been of use. And as it turns out I haven't needed one. I picked up a collapsing baton to smack and ward off the hunds. That's something I can wield and use without the risk of blowing my own leg off.

If it comes down to having no choice, I'd want a long gun. Even a .22 rimfire long gun is better than a handgun. The target is moving fast, it's pretty small as animals go and it's prone to changing course. And you need headshots to make any caliber count when the dog's blood is up.

Wade Wilson
April 27, 2011, 09:06 PM
I can tell you don't jog or ride a bicycle much

I jog everyday, so obviously you cant tell.

In your situation which is somewhat uncommon I can completely understand. Ive been bit by dogs while running and had to pull dogs off my dog while on walks, i get it they exist.

MCgunner
April 27, 2011, 09:28 PM
There is a little keltec PF9 I think in 9mm parabellum. It is a nice little package with 7+1 hollow points you can take care of any dogs and crocks
if they show up.
it is a 9mm in a 32ACP type of package.


The gun I defended myself with against the chow was a kel tec P11, 11 rounds on tap of 115 grain +P at 1263 fps avg for 10 shots. It only took one round on a 70 or so lb chow. He turned and ran howling off to die at his owner's, later, the one who called the law on me. I figured I was in the right and TOLD the cop I shot the dog to which I was disarmed, arrested, and booked. I later got the gun back after the case was thrown out.

See, thing is, you kill a man, you get a grand jury to rule whether the case is even worthy of going to court. You kill a dog, you get arrested and have to prove your innocence, which I did, just sayin'. If you're going to kill something, kill a human. You can get away with that. Dogs have more rights than people. :rolleyes: I mean, we had a leash law in that town, that dog came into my yard and attacked MY cats and when I started kicking the snot out of him, he attacked me. I didn't have a ball bat or anything handy, only my daily carry. Now, I have the pepper spray along with my two carries 24/7. Yeah, I learned the hard way, I guess.

BTW, it's legal to defend live stock from dogs and I grew up in the sticks where we had lots of feral dogs I've had to shoot. Shot every one of 'em with a .22 rifle and don't remember any getting away. It don't take a cannon to kill a dog. It's the Indian, not the arrow. A .22 works fine if well placed. If you can't shoot a handgun, maybe a Taurus Judge???? Pepper spray in town against attacking dogs, though, is ALL I'll recommend from my experience.

Remo223
April 27, 2011, 09:50 PM
In my opinion, the only shell that makes sense in a taurus judge is one in which the shot is so large the lead balls are stacked in there single file and barely fit. I think that works out to be triple ought. But I don't have a judge and have no desire to get one. So that should tell ya how experienced I am with triple ought out of a judge. The thing about shotgun shells fired from pistol length barrels is that they are extremely underwhelming...as in not very impressive. Ballistically speaking that is.

jim goose
April 27, 2011, 11:31 PM
Its those little dogs that scare me the most. The Dachshunds and Jack Russell's. Razor sharp teeth on those guys. I'd rather just hit them with buckshot and skip the cleanup and burial. Less problems with the owners too.

Kendal Black
April 27, 2011, 11:56 PM
The Dachshund is, pound for pound, the meanest dog of all. I think it is from hearing the Oscar Mayer Weiner song all their lives.

Ironclad
April 28, 2011, 12:01 AM
I'd say that if you're really in Boulder like your profile says then that's way to urban of an area to go around pullin a gun just for a dog. Plus, I'd say that about 90% of the cases where somebody thinks a dog is going to attack it ends up just being a show of aggression and nothing happens. Heck I've been around dogs that bark and snarl like they want to tear out your liver, but 15 seconds later you can be scratchin their ears. Shooting someone's pet under those circumstances would be unforgivable. Just get some pepper spray and call it good.

jim goose
April 28, 2011, 12:04 AM
I dont know. My ex wife had a dachshund. And the kennel housed it with a jack russell and i think it was the fight of a century. Dachshund lost, big time. :)

That being said, take no chances. Sub-2000 in your camel back. Extra Hi cap mags in case thos e little devils break lose form their minivans and go on THR man killing spree.

Ironclad
April 28, 2011, 12:17 AM
A little off topic, but I heard about a company once who trained packs of guard chihuahuas. The idea being that it is harder to put down 100lbs of chihuahua than 100 lbs of mastiff. Can you imagine?

J_McLeod
April 28, 2011, 12:17 AM
7.62x39mm. Need a good AK with some 30 rounders.

ActionJax
April 28, 2011, 12:22 AM
A little off topic, but I heard about a company once who trained packs of guard chihuahuas. The idea being that it is harder to put down 100lbs of chihuahua than 100 lbs of mastiff. Can you imagine?
100 lbs of "Yo Quiero Taco Bell ??"

ugh ... (he shudders in disgust)

webfox
April 28, 2011, 12:41 AM
We're all discussing so many variations...

Feral dog could be killed, of course. Is it a dog that has an owner? Once you do something to that dog, you have to worry about every time you pass the property. Non lethal would be the best way to go with a family pet.

I have been nipped in the heels by a german shepherd and after turning to yell at the owner, the guy denied that his dog was ever in the street. The dog even took a stalking pose on its front lawn before coming after me and chasing me down the road. Some people are jerks. (I can use that phrase right? Because the real word I wanted to use was a little more intense.)

You have to consider whether or not the dog has an owner, if it's big, if you might get rabies, and if you ever want to be able to pass that way again.

They sell pepper spray suited for bears. Buy some.

If you run through the woods, get something that will take down the big bad wolf.

matt_borror
April 28, 2011, 01:01 AM
i think most guns above .32 would do a good job. PLZ use good judgement though as this is most likely somebody's pet and it's easy to be justified in killing a "dangerous dog", but not always the right thing to do

GLOOB
April 28, 2011, 06:31 AM
And you dont have the right to murder someone's dog because it barks at you, steps on your land while lost, or gives you nightmares at bedtime. Call animal control.
+1
As long as the dog doesn't look obviously feral, uncared for, or foaming at the mouth, I don't think I'd ever shoot a strange dog that was just "threatening" me. It could be someone's pet that got off the leash as a one-time event. Even if charged, I'd hold my ground, give it my game face, and get ready to open a can of whoopaz. Until it bites me, it's just a dog being a dog. Bluffing, 99% of the time. I don't care if the law gives me the green light. SWAT teams can murder my share of peoples' pets. In my mind, there are plenty of people in this world that deserve to be shot, but not too many dogs.

Confronted with several large aggressive dogs or a known aggressive dog would be different.

Come to think of it, I don't get the concept of "snake guns," either. I'd rather leave a snake alone than suffer hearing loss. Aside from a water moccasin, the only reason a snake would bite you (in North America) is if you stepped on it. And you'd be a little late with the gun, if that were the case.

Jim NE
April 28, 2011, 09:18 AM
Agreed, but the exact same thing can be said about somebody who instead of doing the rational thing and choosing a rabid bull-mastiff free jogging route decides to go Dirty Harry on every pup who barks at him from behind it's Invisible Fence.

On a weekly basis I'm around a couple dogs who have put people in the hospital. I've never felt the need to strap.


I love almost all dogs and the thought of shooting one is heartbreaking to me. It reminds me of the scene in "To Kill A Mockingbird" when the Gregory Peck character (Aticus?) shoots a rabid dog in front of his daughter. Wow, I couldn't stand that scene.

I agree that trigger happiness as a first line of defense is a bad idea, but "a couple dogs who have put people in the hospital"?? Unless there's more to the story, something's not right with that picture. Those type of animals should not be allowed to exist. (unless, of course, it was bad guy intruders they were chewing on.)I'm thinking mostly about the welfare of little 9 year old kids rather than myself.

macadore
April 28, 2011, 09:25 AM
Agreed, but the exact same thing can be said about somebody who instead of doing the rational thing and choosing a rabid bull-mastiff free jogging route decides to go Dirty Harry on every pup who barks at him from behind it's Invisible Fence.

That would be the jogging route with the unicorns. Right? If you find it , let me know. Take a picture.

If you think about it, you really don't need a gun for anything. Just call the police. Carry a ham bone in your pocket so you can distract the dog and get away. :uhoh:

PRM
April 28, 2011, 10:22 AM
Carry a ham bone in your pocket - macadore

Now that's funny!!!

Ben86
April 28, 2011, 10:41 AM
SWAT teams can murder my share of peoples' pets. In my mind, there are plenty of people in this world that deserve to be shot, but not too many dogs.

It irritates the fire out of me that they break into people's homes and shoot the owner's dog for barking and being aggressive. Seriously, how can you expect it to do anything else? It's a dog, it defends it's turf. They need to use pepper spray or something non lethal before whipping out the M4 and shooting people's poor animals like a bunch of storm troopers.

I think no knock entries need to be seriously curtailed, but that's a different subject.

PabloJ
April 28, 2011, 11:49 AM
Mace Triple-Action is quite effective even on larger specimens. Had to use it 3 times in last 5 years. Be on lookout for enraged dog owners despite the fact they're violating local leash regulation having their dog sprayed really ticks them off. Why do stupid people like that think dog is more important then another human being. I don't get it.

MCgunner
April 28, 2011, 12:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D0pJa05f7M

:D

Mace Triple-Action is quite effective even on larger specimens. Had to use it 3 times in last 5 years. Be on lookout for enraged dog owners despite the fact they're violating local leash regulation having their dog sprayed really ticks them off. Why do stupid people like that think dog is more important then another human being. I don't get it.

Maybe if you explain to the enraged dog owner that your alternative was to shoot fideaux, they might just thank you for the mace? Just a thought.

MCgunner
April 28, 2011, 12:50 PM
I love almost all dogs and the thought of shooting one is heartbreaking to me. It reminds me of the scene in "To Kill A Mockingbird" when the Gregory Peck character (Aticus?) shoots a rabid dog in front of his daughter. Wow, I couldn't stand that scene.

You've obviously never had a calf killed or a chicken pen raided by dogs. :rolleyes: I've killed my share of dogs with absolutely no regrets. Only good feral dog is a dead feral dog.

Franco2shoot
April 28, 2011, 12:54 PM
Interesting thread. And I have real life experiences over the past two months. First some background. We live in the Burb's just outside D.C. discharge of any firearm is a no-no. Ok so we have a group of tenents in a house across the street from our home.
They have a cross between pit bull and Rotweiller normally kept in the house(big dog over 80lbs.) , but sometimes locked in back yard. This animal has an accomplice, dog that I am clueless as to breed, it is slightly less aggressive.

So last month, a very windy day and both dogs get out.(pepper spray would not have been an option) They are chasing any person up and down a block in every direction. A couple riding their Mountain bikes come up the hill across from my house, and the larger dog snaps and gets hold of the ladies trousers, she is screaming as it pulls her off her bike, and her boyfriend resorts to throwing his bike at the dog to repel the attack. The main attack came from the Pit, with the second dog snapping but about 3 feet back. By the time I went out towards our Mail box, the couple had turned their bikes down the street and were speeding away, so I became the next victim. At first I just yelled at them, but the attack continued, the Pit bull would not retreat and continued to attempt to bite me, a smallish stick seemed to only further incite them, I kept waving it and retreated inside the house. I got the car keys to our Jeep Commander fullly intending on running them down. I slipped out the garage entrance got in the Jeep and headed for the Pit Bull. As it turns out, leaning on the horn and chasing them with the vehicle got them into their back yard where I slammed the gate. ( seems to validate the Air Horn )

Last Saturday, similar experience, 77 year old man hobbling down the sidewalk attacked by the Pit bull. Wife calls Animal control, and I go get the #1 Golf Driver ready to go for the 250 yard marker. By the time I got out there, the owner had collared the animal and had it back in his yard. Cops came and we swore out a complaint, owners were ticketed.

I am really fearful that one fine day the School bus off-loading will coincide with the Pit's backyard escape, and someone's child will be permanently scar'ed but this is the price one has to pay when living in suburbia. I thought about using my Walther P99 in .40 cal but the legal ramifications have me still leaning towards the golf club.

KKKKFL

Remo223
April 28, 2011, 03:14 PM
I don't even like the thought of shooting a coyote. I'm kind of a big sissy that way. It would be even harder for me to shoot a dog. But a dog like the one described above I would kill in a heartbeat with no mercy and no anguish whatsoever. I have a special kind of hatred for a dog(and owner) that is not disciplined. If you cannot control your own dog, especially a potentially dangerous breed, then you should not be allowed to own it. I don't care if it takes a cattle prod or a baseball bat. You teach that animal to mind your commands or else put it down. I get extremely angry when I see a stupid owner with a misbehaving dog that thinks its "cute" how rambunctious fido is. There's nothing cute about it.

1911Tuner
April 28, 2011, 03:40 PM
Back when I was a younger lad and given to walking in residential areas, the sidearm on my belt was thought of as the last ditch when things went badly wrong with man or dog. Operate on the premise that it's best to avoid pulling the trigger if at all possible. Bullets bouncing down the street with the kiddies playing stickball at the other end isn't exactly conducive to good relations with your neighbors, regardless of your circumstance.

The best defense against a territorial dog is a walking stick with a pointy end and a roughened circumference. A kid's water pistol filled with ammonia is an option that works well. If you're especially nasty, you can add pointy things to the sides. The only limit here is your imagination. Small finishing nails protruding about an eighth of an inch, filed sharp are effective.

When a dog that hasn't been trained specifically to avoid a contact weapon makes his move, he will clamp down on the first thing presented to him. Present the pointy end of the stick to him, and when he bites...shove it down his throat aggressively and keep pushing. All but the most determined will break off the instant that they realize that you can hurt them. For the rare dog that backs off the stick and makes another try...he'll bite the stick again. In the interim...while he's considering his options...you can give him a dose of the ammonia. Lather, rinse, repeat until Fido gets the message.

Firing on a fast-moving dog is a good way to wind up in a jam that you'll need a good lawyer and a lot of money to get yourself out of. It's also a good way to invoke the wrath of the dog's owner. He's much more likely to swallow a trip to the vet with his fuzzy buddy for a sore, lacerated mouth than having his dog shot...and much less likely to plan a payback visit at O-Dark-Thirty while you sleep.

MCgunner
April 28, 2011, 03:55 PM
A kid's water pistol filled with ammonia is an option that works well.

I used that one delivering papers on my bike when I was a kid. I'd been bitten before. One thing, I didn't care at the time, but a shot of ammonia to the eyes can blind permanently. There was at least one blind dog in Jones Creek, Texas back in 1967. :D

Sniper X
April 28, 2011, 04:09 PM
Yet another person here in NM was killed a couple days ago, by 4 Pit Bulls that got away from the owners. The responding cop had to shoot one that tried to attack him, the other three took off after the gunshot and headed for home. Just think of how much better this all would have been had the lady who was killed had even a .22. The owners might be brought up on charges.

Sheepdog1968
April 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
unless you are looking for an excuse to go buy a new gun, I'd just use what you already own.

Karl Hungus
April 28, 2011, 07:55 PM
I'd pack a SNIPER RIFLE.

...that should lock this ridiculous thread.

Guillermo
April 28, 2011, 09:18 PM
dogs attack people every day

I am amazed at the people that act like this is a silly thread

Of course I should not be surprised.

Averageman
April 28, 2011, 09:38 PM
My Step Dad made soap loads for his .44. Remove the bullet and inset soap or wax.
I never saw him load them, but did get to see him unload one. It flipped the dog completly head over heels and it staggered and then took off.
We had some pretty crazy neighbors back then.

Walking Dead
April 28, 2011, 09:47 PM
Just carry a knife. You can jog with it in your hand folded up and know body would know.

DC3-CVN-72
April 28, 2011, 10:24 PM
when I was stationed at N.A.S. Alameda CA. my wife & I had an APT. in town. One day we were home on a saturday afternoon in agust '94. I was sitting on the coutch watching a baseball game on t.v. & Annie was makeing us some sandwiches. I had the front door open for some air. The land loard was replaceing all the screen doors so nobody had one. A few doors down some people were haveing a party, cool. as I'm watching the game out of the corner of my eye I see a dog running through the front door. I looked to my left to see a black & white pit bull running at me. My cocked & locked COLT Officers .45 ACP was on the end tabel next to me. Before I could even think about picking it up the dogs head was in my lap. So I grabe for its head. before I could even do that it just started licking my face. He was just a big puppy. I started petting him & was just about to get up & take him around the complex to see who he belonged to when a verry large man runs throug my front door at me. He looked at my .45 on the end tabel, stoped in his tracks, & said " I'm sorry Bennie scared you, he's not mean." I said "thats ok, I'm sorry I don't have a screen door !" He invited Annie & I to the party & we had a great time. Had I had shot that dog, I would probaly have had to shoot that man. It all happened inside of 15 seconds. I'm glad it turned out well. :)

Remo223
April 28, 2011, 11:23 PM
^ha!

There used to be a neighborhood cat that would sneak into my house. I tend to come home late from work(in the dark) The first time I saw the cat in my house it nearly scared me to death. the cat snuck in while was opening the front door in the dark and I didn't see the cat go in, in fact I never knew the cat was anywhere around. I keep the lights in the house turned off too. Well, I was very tired and sat down on the couch and turned on the TV. Lights are still turned off btw. In a little while I thought I saw saw something move in the shadows and gave me a start. I shrugged it off...was thinking to myself "buy mousetraps tomorrow". A little while later I DID see something BIG run accross the front room(lights are still off). I was up on the couch screaming trying to climb up the walls and trying to remember where I last left my gun. Then this dumb one-eyed crooked eared cat hops up on my couch with me, sits down, and says "meow".

after that it came in with me everyday for a few minutes after I got off work.

mljdeckard
April 28, 2011, 11:29 PM
If a dog is bad enough that I need to use violence to stop it, I don't want it to get close enough that I can use a knife. (.....same as a human bad guy.)

Jim NE
April 28, 2011, 11:51 PM
Guillermo said "dogs attack people every day

I am amazed at the people that act like this is a silly thread"

You're right, Guillermo. 34 people died last year in the US from dog attacks. A friend of mine was put in the hospital for 2 months when an unleashed dog attacked him while he was riding a motorcycle. But forget about what vicious dogs do to middle aged bikers and joggers armed with pepper spray. Think about what they do to KIDS. The majority of victims are kids. Kids have an innate love of all animals, and think that all animals are sweet and want to be petted. Maybe they should know better, but they don't....because they're KIDS. Anyone who thinks their VICIOUS dog is more valuable than the neighborhood children, and lets that dog roam or walk off the leash, is a sociopath. I'm not characterizing all or most dog owners that way, the vast majority aren't. This thread isn't about the vast majority.

Some more facts from the net: "The median age of patients bitten was 15 years, with children, especially boys aged 5 to 9 years, having the highest incidence rate... The odds that a bite victim will be a child are 3.2 to 1. (CDC.) ...Children seen in emergency departments were more likely than older persons to be bitten on the face, neck, and head. 77% of injuries to children under 10 years old are facial." I should mention that almost half of the kids bitten belong to (or are friends of) the families that own viscious dogs.

Again, I love dogs, but I love my kids a whole lot more.

Oh, and the dogs most likely to kill are Pit bulls and Rottweilers.

Dr.Rob
April 29, 2011, 12:11 AM
I watched my dad shoot a rabid dog multiple times in the head with a .22 when I was a kid. I don't recall how many hits that sick animal soaked up but it was a bunch. Very sad indeed.

Sick animals don't act like regular animals.

Centerfire and make it count. You don't want to get too close to a rabid dog.

lizziedog1
April 29, 2011, 06:35 AM
Stray dogs don't usually do too well around here. A couple of weeks ago I found a dog collar in the desert. No dog, not even a piece of fur. We have predators that help remind folks to be responsible pet owners.

I have dogs. My property is fenced in. They can not get out. I guess for some folks that is a novel situation.

Guillermo
April 29, 2011, 09:04 AM
We have predators that help remind folks to be responsible pet owners.

sadly the responsible pet owner is the exception...not the rule



(as I write this I am listening to a neighbors dog bark incessantly...and yes, they have been polity informed that their dog is a noise problem.)

Kiln
April 29, 2011, 09:41 AM
I've never actually killed any crazed mongruels but in my opinion anything loud is likely to keep you from getting attacked if you discharge it at the ground. Once when I was walking the property line I saw several feral dogs walking around in the woods, I only had a .22lr revolver on me but when they got too close for comfort I fired it twice at the ground and that was enough to scare them off. Its a little snub with less than a two inch barrel and it is loud enough to make your ears ring pretty good, I guess it must sound fairly intimidating.

I realise that in town firing the gun off is not an option unless absolutely necessary in the area where I live I'll be alright if I fire off a couple of rounds to frighten away wild animals. It works on bobcats too. :)

If it was life or death and I was actually being attacked I'd feel pretty comfortable with a .38sp loaded with some frangible rounds.

mljdeckard
April 29, 2011, 09:58 AM
If you don't shoot to stop the threat, how can you say you were genuinely in fear for your life? If you weren't in fear for your life, why did you draw and shoot? And I wouldn't trust frangible ammo to stop anything that was REALLY trying to hurt me.

Ben86
April 29, 2011, 11:44 AM
If it was life or death and I was actually being attacked I'd feel pretty comfortable with a .38sp loaded with some jacketed hollowpoint rounds.

Fixed it! ;)

Vicious dogs are no joke, especially when they outnumber you. Take a look at this sad story: http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/B3/20110426/NJNEWS18/110426058/New-Mexico-woman-killed-in-attack-by-4-dogs?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

Vlad357
April 29, 2011, 12:13 PM
I agree that shooting a dog should be a last resort, however, you may not have time to use a loud whistle or horn, shift to pepper spray, and then bring a weapon into battery and fire (sounds like some recent rules of engagement I have heard of). You need to evaluate the possible threat and be prepared to address it.

The one time I have had to shoot a dog was when a rabid collie from the next farm over decided he did not like me. Luckily I usually have a revolver handy and a 158 grain SWC over 6.4 grains of Unique settled the argument faster then you could blink an eye. But a few .32 rounds would propably have done it just as well. That assumes you can hit what you shoot at up close, and quick.

sixgunner455
April 29, 2011, 12:43 PM
We have long, long threads about bears and cougars and people attacking people. Fido attacks more people than any other critter out there, except ourselves (humans attacking humans, I mean).

I have a Brittany Spaniel (Epagnuel Breton). I bought her because that breed has been culled for over 100 years to eliminate dog and human aggression. There were other reasons, primarily bird hunting, but that was the final one. I love the GSP, but they get too human, dog, and fur aggressive to suit me. I love Dobermans and GSDs, too, but ... I had little kids when I was shopping for a dog, and neighbors and friends and siblings with little kids. Mine are in Jr High and HS now, but the little kids keep cropping up from the other peoples' houses, and they're always in my house.

My dog will run and hide in her crate before she'll hurt one of those kids. That's what I want. She'll bark at the door. That's as much as I want her to do. I'm 5'10". I weigh 200lbs, and I have guns. She doesn't need to defend me. She's 27lbs of bird dog that thinks she's a lap dog. She'll lick people to death. But if we're ever threatened by a dangerous dog, the last place she'll be is between me and that dog. She has, multiple times, done exactly what I want her to do in that situation - get behind me and let me swing my stick.

Were I still able to run, I would carry an Airweight Jframe S&W, and an ASP. Dogs don't like it when you swing sticks at them. If they're not convinced by the stick, either swinging or knocking them about, then it's time for the gun. In fact, that's what I usually carry when I walk my dog, except I use a walking stick instead of an ASP.

I very nearly got into a fight with a guy who thought I was threatening his pit one day when it came after me, my dog, and my wife. But when he came up to me, he realized two things - First, I was inches taller than him, lift weights, and had a big damn stick in my hand, and second, it wasn't actually his dog. Or at least, that's what he said when I spun around with that stick as he came up to me yelling about why was I hitting his dog. :D My reply? "I haven't hit anything, yet."

So, yeah, people will get uptight about you threatening their dogs.

The absolute closest I have yet come to actually knocking a dog in the head was when a hound mix ambushed me and my Brit from between two parked cars. He was very serious. I had seen him stalking another dog walker from down the street - he bit that dog, I found out later. I crossed the street to be away from him, but he just picked another ambush site. My Brit danced around behind me when he came out, but he took off when the end of my stick swished past his nose.

The only time I've ever shot at a canine that was threatening me or the Brit was a coyote. We were hunting quail, and she was hitting some cover about 70 yards away when a coyote jumped up from where he was sunning himself and started stalking her. I popped off a round from my pistol that kicked up dirt in his face, and he left PDQ.

Dogs are no joke, for sure. Neither are their owners. But I'm not getting bitten again, even if I have to have it out with the owner after. Got bit a couple of times when I was delivering papers on my bike as a kid. Knocked one in the head with my big shackle lock, after it chased me and knocked me down. Not getting bitten again.

Any gun, .22lr and up, will kill a dog. My aunt used a .22 rifle to pop a GSD that was chasing a week-old foal in her corral. It ran off, but didn't make it to the road before it pitched over in the ditch next to the driveway. My dad was an animal control officer in the 60s. He used a .22 revolver, and a .22 rifle to take care of problem animals. Dogs aren't any tougher today - unless, perhaps, you think you need to be ready for one of those freakishly huge mastiffs. .22 will do the job, if you will do yours (hit the target).

Carry something you shoot well, and have a plan to deal with what may come up.

The plan, and your skill in implementing it, is more important than what gun/caliber you have. That's true for many situations.

macadore
April 29, 2011, 01:04 PM
I used to raise cattle. When you find one of your calves gutted and a dog pack eating the remains, you won't have any trouble shooting dogs after that. An AR works fine in those situations. These were always dogs their owners couldn't bear to put down so they dumped them in the country. It wasn't the dogs' fault, but I couldn't shoot the previous owners.

Cop Bob
April 29, 2011, 01:42 PM
One of my buddies came and borrowed my nail gun the other day to put up a fence.. He has been having a LOT of problems with the neighbor behind him and his two pit bulls...

He returned the gun to me yesterday and said, "You know, pit bulls, at least my neighbors, give that nail gun a lot of respect.... now..."

I knew there was a story behind this, so I topped off my iced tea and said, OK, I'll bite..

He said that as he was putting up the last 40 or 5 boards, his neighbor released his Pits into the back yard.. they made a Bee Line for him, growling, barking, and moving at him in a pretty high rate of speed.. then he laughed and said, you know, I never hit one with the nail gun, but I put a couple between his legs, and he decided he was gonna be his own bad self... a little further away... they ran, and barked from a distance..

My point being... most dogs, unless of a hound breed (they are hard headed and determined, once they get something in their head you about HAVE to kill them to change their minds), or trained as a police attack dog, are gonna run like heck at the sound of any gunfire..

The 32 that you described is plenty, head on heart lung, or head shots preferred... but if you miss, it will probably hit the high road..

PcolaDawg
April 29, 2011, 02:40 PM
Let me hit this from the opposite side. I've got two dogs. One is a Greyhound that wouldn't/couldn't hurt a flea.

But the other is a German Shepherd that is a sweetheart to us family members, but dangerous as heck to others, especially if she considers the 'others' a threat.

If, for whatever reason, my German Shepherd got out, threw the leash, whatever, and attacked a neighbor, or a neighbor's kid, grandmother, wife, or whatever, I hope that my neighbor is packing heat, and is very accurate. Because that dog would need to be put down.

Now I love that German Shepherd. Especially because that German Shepherd loves my wife and would give it's life for her. But the dog is not worth the life of another human, or even worth the mauling of another human.

If the above scenario happened, I would blame myself or whoever let the dog loose, accidently or otherwise. I wouldn't blame the dog and I certainly wouldn't blame the neighbor who had to put the dog down. In fact, I would apologize to the neighbor and thank him if he was able to stop a tragedy.

Now, I don't expect the above to happen. We are careful with the dog, and it's not insanely violent. But it is a possibility if, for some reason, the dog got loose and considered a person or another dog as a threat, especially to my wife.

But it would be our own stupid fault for somehow letting the dog loose, NOT the fault of the person who was simply protecting himself or others.

DAdams
April 29, 2011, 04:56 PM
How bout you just buy a can of pepper spray!



Being from CO certainly you must have a triple sized pack of bear spray? ;)

I have used pepper spray on dogs before while bicycling and it is extremely effective. All further pursuit was stopped immediately. Now I am not advocating not carrying nor attempting to dissuade you from deadly force. Just that if you miss with the first shot you may not get a second where with the spray its hard to miss....you may need both.

Kiln
April 29, 2011, 07:16 PM
The thing is that any respectable frangible round is nothing to laugh at and will easily kill a dog if you hit him especially at the range you would actually have to shoot him. At least if you miss in a populated neighborhood that frangible round isn't going far, a HP round may still travel through a fence and hit some kid playing in his back yard. For home defense JHP ammo is my choice but in well populated areas I would rather load up a frangible round.

As I and some other posters said before though, if you miss then the dog will most likely be scared off anyways. I've scared off dogs plenty of times using just a .22 pistol.

mljdeckard
April 29, 2011, 09:10 PM
I am far from certain that ANY premium JHP round will easily stop a charging rottweiler. Far less a frangible one. Frangible bullets don't do anything to prevent unintended injury when you miss the target and hit someone else. The whole point of being armed is to use an emergency tool to even the odds when your life is in danger. Using bullets with inferior penetration likelihood does not increase your odds.

You can shoot to scare. I will shoot to stop.

ironhead7544
April 29, 2011, 11:55 PM
If my dogs run off and get shot, I figure they were doing something they shouldnt have. In the first place they shouldnt have run away. I love my dogs but wouldnt blame anyone for not wanting to get bitten.

Dogs do kill people. Just read the news. The spray will work most times but sometimes does not. I dont know about the bear spray but the cans are big and most people wouldnt want to carry something like that.

Shoot66
April 30, 2011, 04:16 AM
My experience: One 22 LR bullet from a pistol into CM did not work. The dog probably died later though.
My brother`s: it took 3 shots 9 mm Luger (FMJ, HP are illegal here).

sixgunner455
April 30, 2011, 04:58 AM
Shoot66 - how did it not work? Did it not stop whatever it was doing?

defcon
April 30, 2011, 07:41 AM
The bear pepper spray works well. You don't need to shoot the canine because you'll get locked up nowadays for "animal cruelty" Using the bear pepper spray has inherent dangers. Spray down wind otherwise you will incapacitate yourself... hehehe how is the saying? "..'been there, done it?"

GLOOB
April 30, 2011, 09:31 AM
But if we're ever threatened by a dangerous dog, the last place she'll be is between me and that dog. She has, multiple times, done exactly what I want her to do in that situation - get behind me and let me swing my stick.
Now this, I get. Someone suggested earlier to use a dog to protect yourself from aggressive, dangerous dogs. That idea struck me to be about as emotionally endearing as adopting a baby to use as an airbag. Last thing I would want around a raging pitbull in attack mode is my own pet. Even if you had a large, aggressive breed, yourself, it might well escalate the situation.

jim in Anchorage
April 30, 2011, 09:33 AM
Whats worse, a attacking dog or bouncing .45 slugs around the neighborhood? The only shot I would take on a dog in a residential area would be straight down.

Usmc-1
April 30, 2011, 10:14 AM
Taurus Judge throw some .410 @ him that shouls suffice the job!

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

Guillermo
April 30, 2011, 11:05 AM
If the answer is a Taurus Judge...the question has to do with killing rats, snakes or tin cans.

Stopping a territorial Mastiff I would want something with some stopping power rather than relying on scaring the beast.

Karl Hungus
April 30, 2011, 12:20 PM
That would be the jogging route with the unicorns. Right? If you find it , let me know. Take a picture.

If you think about it, you really don't need a gun for anything. Just call the police. Carry a ham bone in your pocket so you can distract the dog and get away.

Well, you've certainly convinced me. From now on I'm going running with at least my AR-10 over my shoulder, 'cause REAL MEN live in constant fear of being mauled by chihuahuas. Plus, I'm sure my neighbors will understand that all the stray lead was necessarry to eliminate the serious threat of a charging Yorkie.


I don't jog, but I do ride a bike. I've been chased by dogs a few times. They like the spinning wheels. When I stop and get off my bike and put the bike between me and the dog, they lose interest and walk away. The biggest danger I've found are motorists who are too busy talking on cell phones or tuning their radio to actually look at the road and what's on it. I've had far far more run-ins with these bozozs than with killer dogs. So I guess my question is: "What caliber for motor vehicles?". Maybe I should start my own thread instead of hijacking this one.

macadore
April 30, 2011, 03:05 PM
Well, you've certainly convinced me. From now on I'm going running with at least my AR-10 over my shoulder, 'cause REAL MEN live in constant fear of being mauled by chihuahuas. Plus, I'm sure my neighbors will understand that all the stray lead was necessarry to eliminate the serious threat of a charging Yorkie.

Reductio ad absurdum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

madstabber
April 30, 2011, 05:31 PM
just stand up to the dog. don't run the dog wont attack unless it's rabid. im very experienced in this on country roads with dobs rotts mutts on foot you run you get bit you stand up to them they'll turn tail and run

oldfool
April 30, 2011, 05:45 PM
I am predisposed to believe that 22WMR is sufficient for defense against most aggressive dogs, and most aggressive people, for that matter. In part, due to the noise factor alone.

Most, not all.

Which is why 38+P or 357 JHP is what we choose to keep handy for home defense.
Which is what I would be carrying, in handgun or in carbine, depending on environment, if concerned about being attacked by either dog or man.
da' Judge is best reserved for watermelon work.

Most aggressive animals, man or beast, will back down if you simply show no fear and growl back. Most, not all. For the rest, there is 357 mag.
(there ain't no Grizz in south Georgia, but we do have more than our fair share of pit bulls; a dawg too stupid to back away from a boar hawg, is too stupid to back away from an old fat man; stupid carries a price, ask any hawg dawg)

PS
if 32 caliber was the choice, I would make it a 327 heavyweight, not a 32 H&R middleweight

Karl Hungus
April 30, 2011, 06:19 PM
Reductio ad absurdum

Fight fire with fire, I always say.

Remllez
April 30, 2011, 06:19 PM
I agree with Pcola and Ironhead...too many people do not take the responsibility of dog ownership seriously. And for the most part like stated it isn't the dogs fault. But if my dog gets loose and attacks someone,whatever method is used to stop the attack is justified in my opinion and a apology by me is in order,as well as paying the medical bills.

As far as feral dogs go they are nothing more than predators in my book and dealt with accordingly. Again it's irresponsible owners that let those dogs run or they were let loose out in the country. Once a viscous dog looks you in the eyes and growls just before it attacks you,your position on shooting it may change as the hair on your neck stands up and you get that primal tingly feeling in your body.

So by all means enjoy owning your dog they are great companions for many people but please make sure you are responsible for their actions.

MCgunner
April 30, 2011, 09:44 PM
I got a buddy that saw a neighbor's dog killing his chickens. He lives north of the city limits of Waco, outside Belmead, actually. Anyway, he was POed, stepped out on the second floor balcony and unloaded a magazine on the dog with his AR. Wasn't a lot left connected on the dog. The deputy that investigated the dog owner's complaint was impressed with the performance of 5.56mm and, seeing as the feather and chicken part evidence was everywhere, went next door to explain the situation to the neighbor. My friend doesn't like his neighbor anyway and has him good and intimidated, now. :D

Kiln
April 30, 2011, 10:08 PM
I got a buddy that saw a neighbor's dog killing his chickens. He lives north of the city limits of Waco, outside Belmead, actually. Anyway, he was POed, stepped out on the second floor balcony and unloaded a magazine on the dog with his AR. Wasn't a lot left connected on the dog. The deputy that investigated the dog owner's complaint was impressed with the performance of 5.56mm and, seeing as the feather and chicken part evidence was everywhere, went next door to explain the situation to the neighbor. My friend doesn't like his neighbor anyway and has him good and intimidated, now. :D
Yeah I would imagine that the 5.56 would be pretty sufficient in taking out varmints, though I've never owned one myself. But unless you're at home the 5.56 just isn't an option for protection against a dog unless you're one of those people who concealed carrys a PLR 16. ;)

GLOOB
April 30, 2011, 11:15 PM
just stand up to the dog. don't run the dog wont attack unless it's rabid. im very experienced in this on country roads with dobs rotts mutts on foot you run you get bit you stand up to them they'll turn tail and run
Exactly. Any dog that can and will (without being trained specifically to do so) take on a wary adult that is standing his ground, is a breed that will soon be illegal to own as a pet, along with African cats and alligators. With all the controversy over certain breeds of dog, imagine if they were real man-killers. They would have been banned as pets a long time ago. Bark, charge, nip, growl? Yup. They'll do that all day.

Against a pack of aggressive dogs... well, hopefully they get the attention of the community before anything bad happens. Best defense would probably be spray and/or loud noise.

DM~
May 2, 2011, 10:18 AM
Exactly. Any dog that can and will (without being trained specifically to do so) take on a wary adult that is standing his ground, is a breed that will soon be illegal to own as a pet, along with African cats and alligators. With all the controversy over certain breeds of dog, imagine if they were real man-killers. They would have been banned as pets a long time ago. Bark, charge, nip, growl? Yup. They'll do that all day.

Against a pack of aggressive dogs... well, hopefully they get the attention of the community before anything bad happens. Best defense would probably be spray and/or loud noise.

Any dog that will bite me or anyone else on MY property will be SHOT and not with pepperspray. Too many kids are being chewed up by biteing dogs, and i for one don't need dogs that are that aggressive around.... peroid!

That's just what you need to tell a small kid in your yard..... "honey, just stand up to it!! and you won't get bit". RIGHT!

KEEP YOUR DOG HOME and it won't get shot! That's what i do with mine!

DM

Ben86
May 2, 2011, 10:35 AM
Which is why 38+P or 357 JHP is what we choose to keep handy for home defense.
Which is what I would be carrying, in handgun or in carbine, depending on environment, if concerned about being attacked by either dog or man.

Wait. You have a .357 or .38sp carbine?

sixgunner455
May 2, 2011, 11:00 AM
Marlin, Rossi, and others make .357 lever carbines. Very cool little guns.

Jitterbug
May 2, 2011, 11:01 AM
Living in Boulder, I think you'd be better off giving up jogging, the dogs were there first you know.

I'm just outside the land of fruits and nuts and one of my biggest concerns is using a CCW on any 4 legged animal. I figure getting chewed or eaten by a four legged critter is a better alternative then to what the courts and media will do to ya.

Hospitals and funeral arrangements are probably cheaper then attorneys too.

Dogguy
May 2, 2011, 05:04 PM
You leave yourself open to a civil suit for shooting someone's dog, even though it might be trying to bite you. A pack of wild dogs is another matter, of course.

Overall, your wiser course of action is the strongest pepper spray you can legally buy.

defcon
May 2, 2011, 05:41 PM
You leave yourself open to a civil suit for shooting someone's dog, even though it might be trying to bite you. A pack of wild dogs is another matter, of course.

Overall, your wiser course of action is the strongest pepper spray you can legally buy.
I tried to point that out on page 6 also.

1911Tuner
May 2, 2011, 06:13 PM
Quote:

>You leave yourself open to a civil suit for shooting someone's dog, even though it might be trying to bite you. A pack of wild dogs is another matter, of course.<

Yessir. That's a fact...and it can get pretty bad even if the owner doesn't sue. There's a lot to be said for not firing in residential areas unless it's absolutely necessary.

A pointy stick about five feet long and a can of pepper spray should take care of 99.9% of the bad dog problems you're likely to encounter. The gun on your belt is there for that point-one percent that goes wrong.

A good/wise practice is to start thinking of the gun as the last resort instead of the first response. It'll go a long way toward keepin' ya out of court.

Karl Hungus
May 2, 2011, 07:09 PM
Any dog that will bite me or anyone else on MY property will be SHOT and not with pepperspray.

That's great, but the thread is about a guy jogging (presumably in the suburbs of Boulder), not what's going on on YOUR property.

gscrasher
May 3, 2011, 01:40 AM
Tonight's 10pm news in Albuquerque described a case from earlier today where a pit bull attacked a full grown horse, while a woman was riding the horse. The dog brought the 1000 lb.-horse down just as they entered the woman's corral. Fortunately, her husband, after unsuccessfully attacking the dog with a set of antlers, retrieved his shotgun and put an end to the dog.

New Mexico is somewhat special in regard to the high frequency of pit bull attacks on humans possibly because dog fighting is still a popular activity here. This leads to many fight-trained/abused dogs of this variety. The local news also carries many stories of animal abuse concerning pit bulls. It is part of the culture here that is very disheartening.

Oyeboten
May 3, 2011, 04:18 AM
I have long wished for a very nice pet Hyena who could be part of our Family here.

They are very family oriented, sensitive to hierarchy and status just as most Dogs are, intelligent, and, are very good protection against any stray or malevolent Dogs ( or people ) which might attack one as one is out doing Yard Work or walking or whatever.

No Routwiler or Pit Bull or Boxer or Spitz or Mastif or any Dog breed ( or Wolf even ) would last five seconds if they insulted or aggressed against a Hyena, or against any of the Hyena's family or friends if the Hyena is present.

The Pit Bull would run up, and lunging, bite the Hyena on the Throat or Neck or Shoulder, getting no where and not getting through the furr, though hanging on of course, and, the Hyena would instantly remove the Pitt Bull's Legs with a few easy lightning fast bites, and, then disenbowel it, and, shake off the by then mostly exanguine corpse with head...no worse for wear.

Diggers
May 3, 2011, 04:44 AM
I sometimes jog with my LCP .380 in a holster shirt. Works pretty well because its a very light gun.

I vote for the pepper spray also. I've been sprayed with OC and its not fun at all, cant imagine having the senses a dog has and being exposed to OC. Yikes! :fire:

Ben86
May 3, 2011, 11:46 AM
A pointy stick about five feet long and a can of pepper spray should take care of 99.9% of the bad dog problems you're likely to encounter.

Who goes running with a five foot stick? That sounds quite unwieldy. Maybe an ASP would work. Pepper spray is a better idea than a gun though legally speaking. It's good to have a gun on you as well, but if you can stop the attack without killing the dog that may be a better legal option.

Marlin, Rossi, and others make .357 lever carbines. Very cool little guns.

Sweet, I'm going to have to check those out.

1911Tuner
May 3, 2011, 11:51 AM
Well, Ben...it ain't gotta be a staff. About a half-inch in diameter and real pointy will suffice, and a little discomfort beats spendin' the night in jail...and your kids' college fund...defending a possible criminal action and a nearly guaranteed civil suit.

Shorten it to four feet if you'd like.

Guillermo
May 3, 2011, 12:05 PM
John,

Interesting that you do not recommend a firearm even though you are with us only because you had a gun, unholstered, which saved you from death by dog attack.

1911Tuner
May 3, 2011, 12:08 PM
I wasn't on my feet in a populated section of town. I was in a semi-reclined position in a remote area...roused out of a sleep...by a pack of dogs who were within springing distance. There wasn't a lot of time available.

Little difference there...

Stainz
May 3, 2011, 12:10 PM
I had a friend , a LEO, who once emptied his .40 S&W Glock at a charging pit bull, putting five or more in it's body. It stopped at his feet, gurgling - he reloaded and dispatched it with a head shot. He got permission to carry a .45 Colt 625 MG - worked better, he just got tired of dispatching animals. He then changed his duty station, losing the call him for mad dog responses. I lost touch with him... he was a good guy.

I carry a 642 with it's usual +P 158gr LHPSWC loads when I walk the neighborhood - and avoid the streets where rotts, shepherds, & pit bulls roam. The revolver is personal protection - from bad guys. I walked the neighborhood around school bus time in the AM, thinking owners of such dogs would control them. Wrong - they are usually the most careless of pet owners - or why would they be roaming free? Personal responsibility, what's that?

I have six inside-only cats... two will 'attack' you when you enter the house - demanding your attention. A third will come out soon - and try to trip you by rubbing your legs. The other three will hide - seemingly forever. I got five down to the basement before the tornado jumped us last week - one hid real well - from me. Good pets.

Stainz

Guillermo
May 3, 2011, 12:10 PM
I know...and Thank God you had your gun in your lap or we would not be having this conversation.

But from your description of the event even if you were awake, a stick does not sound as though it would have been effective.

SleazyRider
May 3, 2011, 12:17 PM
Quote:

>A good/wise practice is to start thinking of the gun as the last resort instead of the first response. It'll go a long way toward keepin' ya out of court.

I've gotten a lot of terrific advice on The High Road, and this ranks among the very best! Well said, sir!

1911Tuner
May 3, 2011, 01:13 PM
Quote:

>But from your description of the event even if you were awake, a stick does not sound as though it would have been effective. <

Not lying down against a pack of ferals intent on having me for breakfast, for sure. On my feet, with one territorial aggressive dog? Yep. A sharp stick rammed down the throat turns'em off about as quick as anything.

MCgunner
May 3, 2011, 01:58 PM
Marlin, Rossi, and others make .357 lever carbines. Very cool little guns.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=101415&d=1247424987

dagger dog
May 3, 2011, 05:40 PM
I have been dog bitten, not nipped, several times, more than I like to count.

A dog will bite you if he afraid, injured, or teased.

Then there is the dog that is guarding HIS turf or property, that includes HIS people, don't turn your back on him,no matter how small, you are on HIS property or diturbing HIS kin and he has the right to confront you, this is the dog you have to back away from, plus you do not want to make direct eye contact.

The other type dogs mentioned are easily handled with pepper spray loud noises etc.

Then you get into the HOTTER breeds as in thouroughbreds your Pits, Rots, Chows,among others, when these dogs fixate on a target they are very hard to handle, some were bred for the express purpose of dragging down and killing.

When SEEING RED the only way to stop them is by killing and is best handled with a firearm.

But we as men are the ones that bred them for such traits, and our duty is to KNOW WHEN TO RETREAT. Most man dog confrontations are easily stopped by simply backing away, it saves the dog plus it saves the MAN.

Now a savage horse that's a different story!

Rexster
May 3, 2011, 09:02 PM
I managed to knock a medium-sized dog unconscious with a three-foot wooden dowel I carried while running, back before I could legally carry a handgun. IIRC, it was 5/8" or 3/4" in diameter. One well-timed blow to the side of the head and the dog dropped, unmoving, for several seconds, then got up slowly, and ran off. He was fine by the next day, and never chased me again.

I favor .357 Magnum nowadays, but still believe I would carry a stick if I again take up running in a rural area. Body language and stern verbal warnings will deter most dogs, and the stick backs that up. I would rather not shoot a dog if I can avoid it, though a truly dangerous dog is certainly an exception, and I might be inclined to intervene rather aggressively, with my badge to back up my actions.

I work for a large PD. We shoot several humans a year, and more dogs than humans, mostly using .40 duty pistols and shotguns. .40 seems to stop dogs quite successfully. We don't shoot humans or dogs unless there is an imminent and specific threat, as per policy. We don't just go around shooting loose dogs because they are unconfined.

Rexster
May 3, 2011, 09:09 PM
Perhaps I should add that we don't use one uniform duty load. We buy our own weapons and duty ammo, within guidelines. Premium JHP in the conventional bullets weights is the recommendation, with 180-grain Gold Dots being a popular choice.

I am prohibited by policy from identifying myself in social media as a member of my PD, especially while discussing weapons, laws, and self-defense.

hiker44
May 3, 2011, 10:50 PM
Plastic squirt gun filled with amonia.

jbr
May 3, 2011, 10:55 PM
8 pages on "what caliber do i need to kill a domestic dog" Holy Crap!

Sam Cade
May 3, 2011, 11:59 PM
34 people died last year in the US from dog attacks

Obviously a plague upon the land. :scrutiny:

Y'know, something like 250 children under the age of 5 die in swimming pools every year. For that reason, I shoot every damn swimmin' pool I come across.

Its for the children.


When I was about nine I was playing with my dog outside my grandparents house when a truck comes to a screeching halt in the road and some fat SOB jumps out brandishing a rifle, screaming at me to run, and run I did, with my dog right behind me. The dog that Mr.Helpful was shooting at.
He had taken it upon himself to shoot my evil, killer pit-bull before a disaster ensued.

...and to beat it all, the dog was a brindle mountain cur.

1911Tuner
May 4, 2011, 06:17 AM
Interesting story, Sam. I'll tell a quick one before I bail outta this one.

Tanglewood Park near Clemmons NC...circa 1995. A guy has two beautiful dogs on-leash At Mallard Lake. Well-behaved and friendly. I hear a few comments about him having those dangerous Pitbulls in a public place, and much spouting of statistical sheep dip. After about 10 minutes, I turned and asked Mr. Dog Expert if he'd recognize Pitbull if one walked up and licked his hand. He answered emphatically in the affirmative, and proceeded to inform me of his credentials. I listened patiently for a minute, and then told him that the dogs he'd just positively identified as Pitbulls were actually Dogo Argentinos.

I've heard people identify several bully breeds as Pitbulls...from Boxers to American Bulldogs...and even a Boston Terrier once.

This panic response isn't limited to Pitbulls. I once saw an Alaskan Malamute on a leash nearly trigger a human stampede because somebody literally cried "Wolf."

*sigh*

Guillermo
May 4, 2011, 07:58 AM
any dog w a big head is a pit bull to most people

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Ben86
May 4, 2011, 11:30 AM
Well, Ben...it ain't gotta be a staff. About a half-inch in diameter and real pointy will suffice, and a little discomfort beats spendin' the night in jail...and your kids' college fund...defending a possible criminal action and a nearly guaranteed civil suit.

Shorten it to four feet if you'd like.

I agree it would be better to be able to whack it in the head or something and have it run off rather than shoot it and have to deal with the fall out. I still just can't picture someone running around the neighborhood with a bo staff like stick in shoalin monk fashion. Isn't running with pointy sticks dangerous? ;) Oh well, whatever works for you grasshopper.

sixgunner455
May 4, 2011, 12:56 PM
Ben - I'd carry an ASP, if I were running again.

dirtykid
May 4, 2011, 05:50 PM
I just cant let this thread stop at 8-pages,, I vote for the pepper-spray or a stick,cause if your jogging your heart-rate and breathing are elevated and now your startled by an aggressor so you want to whip-out a gun and try to hit a small-target with nothing but asphalt for a back-stop ?? sounds like a legal nightmare if you miss and hit something else besides the dog.
If your aware of dog's that may bite, pick a different route !!
If you HAVE to carry a gun,how about a .22 with those "birdshot" shells in them ??
not enough material to cause un-intended damage,yet except for the "charging=snarling pit-bull i cant imagine ANY size dog shaking a face-full of that !!

Prosser
May 4, 2011, 05:57 PM
I carry a small can of mace 10 % pepper gel, with UV dye, around 100% oth the time. I suspect, since it's a gel, it's more directional then spray in general.

Never had to use it.

For jogging, I'd find a couple extendable batons, something like this:
http://www.stungunscheaper.com/_Streetwise_26_Inch_Telescopic_Steel_Baton.php?ref=tmb
carry one in each hand, like jogging weights, and work your upper body as well.

Some solutions that I might also consider: a 360PD loaded with one, very hot, blank, followed by 4 .357 Magnum 147 grain HP's, Fioochi.

Kahr PM 9 with 147 grain HST at about 950 fps, with another mag of 147 grain flat point solids.

22lr Beretta 950 well.

I like the stick idea, just don't want it to be too obvious around here, in PC land.

PRM
May 4, 2011, 06:15 PM
Here ya go, a bicycle mounted machine gun.

"Just remember to gut shoot em ~ otherwise they won't run off and you'll have to carry a shovel."

Nothing in this post should be taken seriously

Ben86
May 5, 2011, 02:53 PM
If you HAVE to carry a gun,how about a .22 with those "birdshot" shells in them ??

I've seen those things fail to kill large insects like hornets. They are anemic beyond comparison. Anyone would be better armed with pepper spray.

Carl Levitian
May 5, 2011, 03:54 PM
You don't need a gun for a dog. Pepper spray works well, ask any mailman.

Couple years ago, the better half and I were walking in the park, with our corgi. An unleashed pit bull runs at us and attacks our little corgi, so I hose down the pit and it runs off, rubbing it's face in the grass howling. The owner comes running at me, calling me a gray bearded old so and so, yelling he;s going to stomp me flat and so on. I had to use the rest of the can on him, hosed him down till the can ran dry. It worked pretty good. He yelled a lot, gagged, staggered around, and ran into a tree trying to get at me.

Park police arrested him for attempted assault and a second charge of having a vicious dog off leash. Better half and I went on our way.

Point is, if I had used a gun, even if Maryland had CCW, I'd been out thousands of dollars, lots of time sitting in court, and maybe even have the idiot try to sue me. With the Fox Labs pepper spray, no fuss, no muss. No bodies, canine or human to give the powers that be an upset. And if you do use whatever on the dog, there's a high probability that you are going to have to use it on the owner. Some owners are like that. Sometimes guns are not a good answer.

Carl.

ScottieG59
May 5, 2011, 04:43 PM
I have loved dogs all my life, but I have had problems with vicious dogs around my home. Any handgun will help if you can hit them. I had a dog that was shot a couple times by kids trying to have fun. He survived, but he had an extreme respect for guns after being shot. Even if the dog survives, the memory will likely cause your presence to generate great fearů the kind that makes them shiver and shake and loose bladder and bowel control kind of fear.

I was attacked by a couple dogs on my property over the past 10 years. I was unarmed each time, but I was very aggressive with them and they backed down. The problem became that they would run from me and attack my kids and smaller animals when I was away. I now am armed and will shoot the next unfriendly critter I encounter.

As to the dogs that attacked my kids, me and killed one of our pets, I documented everything with law enforcement and the owners have been convicted of not restraining dangerous animals. The next incident will put them in prison since there is a suspended sentence.

It would have been gratifying to have simply hunted the dogs down and killed them. However, my problem was with the irresponsible owners who refused to confine them after the first few attacks. The police reports added up to enough for a conviction. Now, if they allow their vicious animals to be unrestrained, they get locked up and their kids go into the foster system.

In the future, I will deal with things directly with the dangerous animal. Though any round that hits will probably break off the attack and a 32 will work, I usually carry a 40 S&W or 38 SPL +P for such occasions.

phoglund
May 5, 2011, 05:39 PM
A bit off topic but I'm always suprised by all this talk of seemingly rampant numbers of viscious dogs roaming American streets. Other than a dog barking a bit visciously at me when I was in my early teens and a dog on a leash taking a nip at my gluteus maximus when I was about 8 I have no experience with the sort of dogs mentioned by most of the posters on this thread.

I'd love to run a poll on how many members have experience with problem dogs but it wouldn't be on topic for a gun forum. Are there parts of the country with more problems with dogs than others? Do I just happen to live in a part of the country where there isn't a problem?

I've lived in Montana pretty steady for the last 20 years or so but grew up an Army brat so spent time in other parts of the country as well. Is this a recent phenomenon?

Can anybody enlighten me?

Walking Dead
May 5, 2011, 06:39 PM
Just get you a Great Pyrenees to jog with and don't worry about the other Mutts.

Karl Hungus
May 5, 2011, 07:01 PM
Give up jogging, stay home with a shotgun pointed at you're lock front door. It's the only way to be sure.

Zoogster
May 5, 2011, 08:13 PM
1911tuner said: I listened patiently for a minute, and then told him that the dogs he'd just positively identified as Pitbulls were actually Dogo Argentinos.

I understand your points, one being people and their incorrect assumptions, and the other stereotyping animals.
However truth be told they are in fact bred to be quite similar animals. Both are designed to be aggressive animals. Similar species are in fact what would likely replace pit bulls if legislation was passed against a specific breed.
A big difference though is such species are not currently sought after by the type of owners that give pit bulls such a bad reputation, so are more likely to be well behaved animals.


While I am against legislation or restrictions based on type of dog, and know animals of various breeds that do not fit a stereotype of a breed, such animals were bred for roles that can make them unstable and dangerous.
Pit bull type dogs for example were meant to combine the size of a stronger dog with the energy, ferocity, and instinctual aggressiveness of a terrier.
Back when terriers were bred to be mousers, or animals with such ferocity that they would rapidly slaughter large numbers of animals smaller than them, in their case typically rodents.
Combining that strong desire with a large animal can make such animals naturally dangerous to children and other things smaller than them, even absent bad owners. A lot of socialization and training can overcome such intentionally bred instinctual tendencies but that is fighting 'nature' so to speak, and while successful is not the 'natural' temperament of the dog.
It goes to the classical nature vs nurture argument, and while enough nurture can overcome nature, it does not make it not a dangerous breed.


1911tuner said: I've heard people identify several bully breeds as Pitbulls...from Boxers to American Bulldogs...and even a Boston Terrier once.

Well that is because of what a Pit Bull was designed from.
It is a large terrier, bred to have the temperament of a terrier and the power and bulk of something bigger, like a bulldog.
Many refer to a "pit bull type" as a result.
An American bulldog crossed and selectively bred with some high energy terriers for example would give you something just like a pit bull. Basically what the American Staffordshire Terrier, an offifically recognized form of the "pit bull" is.
A pit bull is basically a large heavier terrier, but "terriers" are small dogs.
A dogo argentino or a pressa canario and many similar dogs are less well known and without the stigma of a pit bull, but essentially the same or similar temperament in a large strong animal.
So someone miscalling them a "pit bull" is not too far from the truth.
A lot of the crowd intending to make dangerous animals for use as weapons or fighters cross terrier temperament dogs with larger dogs like Mastiffs and other more heavily muscled animals.
The goal is a high energy heavily muscled terrier.
This is nothing new, the Romans used such animals in war as attack dogs.
The bad element then selectively breed only the most aggressive or those that will keep attacking even after losing limbs and being torn apart. The same kind that will keep attacking a little girl even while being hit with a baseball bat. Even when such offspring is bought as puppies from such breeders by someone else and not raised to be aggressive.
As a result these genes are well represented in a portion of "pit bull" type dogs, irregardless of upbringing, and puppies several generations removed with such genes can grow into unexpectedly dangerous animals.

Similar breeds raised improperly become just as dangerous such as in the case of Diane Whipple demonstrated when two presa canario mixes got loose and killed her in a hallway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Whipple
The owners are in prison.

When you selectively breed something for a dangerous temperament, as some breeds were originally bred to have to suit the role they were meant to do, you get a naturally dangerous breed. Such a temperament may be beneficial in some animals, like when they are being used to actually catch dangerous animals.
There will be exceptions in temperament, where enough nurture overcomes the nature, but that is the nature of the animal.
You can raise a friendly male lion too, but it has always got the natural aggressiveness bred into it over time just being held in check by its upbringing, and it can suddenly maul someone when things go wrong.


Pit bulls appeal to young men (and some women) that want an animal weapon, or something dangerous, or the best perceived "protector" and so are often the dog of choice of the worst owners.
This combined with the breed's traits leads them to be the most dangerous animal in the US to people.
Such a species just unsocialized become somewhat dangerous even with no further poor upbringing, while in many breeds that is not the case. So someone that buys such an animal and goes to work leaving it alone most of the time and just takes it for walks can end up with an animal that is dangerous to other people or animals.


The least force necessary to stop a threat should always be used, but it is an animal, and no human injury is worth giving an animal the same benefit of the doubt you would give a human being when aggressiveness is displayed.
I have dealt with plenty of large poorly behaved pit bulls, rottweilers, and similar animals without hurting or killing them when they are loose attacking other animals and being a problem, often while armed with a firearm. (Often times the same animals multiple times because I have found poor owners that get their animals back without much hassle, fees, fines, lawsuits, charges, etc are often unmotivated to change the circumstances that led to what is not perceived as having been a serious situation.)
But that is by choice and luck, even when deadly force would be justified, and what I can do someone else may not be comfortable with. Whether someone is willing to risk injury to take a less lethal approach is their decision to make for a given situation.
Similarly not everyone can carry and rapidly deploy from the batman utility belt with every step in the force continuum as many suggest.
I see people here recommend everything from a large bear spray can (not even legal for self-defense in many states) to several pound sticks, in addition to a gun for someone already talking about a small gun being too heavy while jogging.

Prosser
May 6, 2011, 03:43 AM
Walking Dead, you are RIGHT on the money.:D

Sevenfaces
May 6, 2011, 05:45 AM
I think the minimum caliber for "dog protection" is somewhere around heavy club and large rock. You're seriously going to shoot someone's dog? and then possibly the dog's owner if they react unfavorably? Killing animals is one of the 3 signs of a potential serial killer, you know.

macadore
May 6, 2011, 09:22 AM
I think the minimum caliber for "dog protection" is somewhere around heavy club and large rock. You're seriously going to shoot someone's dog? and then possibly the dog's owner if they react unfavorably? Killing animals is one of the 3 signs of a potential serial killer, you know.

So hunters are potential serial killers? Good to know.

Ben86
May 6, 2011, 04:04 PM
You're seriously going to shoot someone's dog? and then possibly the dog's owner if they react unfavorably?

Yes to both if by "unfavorably" you mean trying to harm me or my family.

Killing animals is one of the 3 signs of a potential serial killer, you know.

Making unfounded statements is a sign of ignorance.

Just get you a Great Pyrenees to jog with and don't worry about the other Mutts.

Got one, they are awesome and have a bark like Cerberus. If only I can get him to stop destroying my plants!! ;)

Clark
May 6, 2011, 10:08 PM
I have been bitten a number of times in my life by dogs.

But when I was 14 a pit bull ripped me from A to Z. This required lots of medical attention.

The dog entered my parents property, looking for trouble.

Now when someone's labs bit me while biking in a park, I yelled so loud that the police contacted me and told me I scared those people. Those cops knew I had a gun too.

Just a small amount of blood, but ever since that pit bull attack, I have no patients for dogs biting me.

I know other people with other life long fear-anger-anxiety problems, but mine is with pit bulls walking around or any other dog that bites me.

I do not shoot dogs that only draw a small amount of blood. But if another pit bull tries to rip me apart again, I am going to shoot it.

I am about to get on my bike right now for my daily ride, with a 380.

Oyeboten
May 6, 2011, 10:23 PM
I do not know very much about Dogs, but, of course, different Breeds, and, individuals within different Breeds, will have different tendencies.


The only time in my adult life I have been assaulted by a Dog, I had over heated my Truck on a Mountain Road, and, needed to add some Water to the Radiator.

Off a half mile or so, I saw a small House, so, I grabbed an empty 'Prestone' Jug and headed off for it.

As I got to about fifty feet or so, a larger ( to my Eye 'Herding' Type Dog, appeared from behind the House, barking fiercely and headed right for me.

I instantly set down the Prestone Jug, and, assumed what one might call a 'passive' or 'submissive' posture and demeanor...averted my eyes, hunched my shoulders low, head bowed down, contrite and in effect, saying "You are the Boss here and I have transgressed"

The Dog, running up full speed and snarling, stopped only JUST at my legs or thighs, and snarled and barked fiercely and so on, and, I said, in plain english, keeping my eyes averted " Please pardon me...I have come here to ask for help with something, and I did not know how to find permission and to pay my respects as I did so."

The Dog assumed then a more forgiving but still fierce and disciplining attitude, backed off a few feet, and, did some more Barking but of a different kind, and, after a couple Minutes, the Home Owners or people came out to see what the fuss was, and, called the Dog to come to them, and, ( me, having been 'herded up!' and put in to my place, ) I was able to explain myself and my purpose, and, to offer my admirations for their brave and intelligent and entirely reasonable Dog.

I got my Water, and, got my Truck to my destination.


I was very lucky!


This was some 65 - 70 pound or so Herding kind of Dog. Shepard Mix of some sort, Alsatian/Aussie-Shepard mix, or I dunno, but.

Some other Breeds, things would not have gone the same.


And or things could have gone very badly, especially since, from a Dogs point of view, I had NO business being there...and SHOULD be attacked or put in my pace for being so stupid or tresspassing or challenging them like that.

I was Armed, but honestly, I totally forgot about my Revolver in my IWB Carry, and, I just went into an 'Animal' demeanor mode of 'apology' and submission, ( I was in the wrong, after all from the Dog's point of view, which I respected and had no contention about) without even thinking about it rationally.

It worked well, but, only because of the Breed, character and intelligence of the Dog in quesiton.

PabloJ
May 6, 2011, 11:04 PM
8 pages on "what caliber do i need to kill a domestic dog" Holy Crap!
It isn't surprising. I like to use local streets for walking and bike riding. It eludes me why some stupid dog owners choose to ignore leash laws and let their dogs roam the neighborhood. Would they enjoy if my dog chased them or run up to them and smelled their crotch? Honestly if one got in front of my car I would not even step on the break pedal. I do break for cats and rabbits.

thefamcnaj
May 6, 2011, 11:10 PM
As a gun lover and a dog lover this is a tough one for me to comment on. Id have to go the pepper spray rout. I couldn't bring myself to shoot a dog uless my kid was in danger. You cant be jogging and see a dog running toward you and just say OMG!! then start firing a gun on it. If my doberman got out and ran toward a jogger it would be to lick his face off(yes they have bad reps(dobeys) but when raised right and socialized young are harmless), and if my doberman was shot by a jogger i'd be on him like stink on poop!
Also if your jogging in an area where you feel you need a powerful gun, you probly need to find a different area to jog in or invest in a treadmill.

1858
May 6, 2011, 11:17 PM
The average dog is a nicer person than the average person. ~ Andy Rooney

I've been around dogs my whole life ... all 47 years ... and never met one I needed or wanted to shoot. Maybe this photo of my two Rottweilers ... uh, I mean Labradors ... will remind some of you to give a dog a chance. They're people too!!

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/general/photos/rotts.jpg

PabloJ
May 6, 2011, 11:49 PM
Dogs are not people and people come first. Thankfully in last five years I had to use triple mace only three times.

Evergreen
May 7, 2011, 12:03 AM
Nothing less than a .500 S&W .. And that is just for poodles :p


Ok, sorry to be a wise guy... .38 /9mm with HP/Expanding round should do the job.. Shot placement is key..

Prosser
May 7, 2011, 02:02 AM
1858:
I LOVE good rotts, and, those are beautiful. I'm in love.:D

That said, I do remember my friend that ended up breeding, and having attack trained rotts had the brilliant idea of getting a Bouvier, if I spelled it right.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/bouvierdesflandres.htm

Dog was bad, and, would come at you full speed, bobbing and weaving like Mike Tyson on a good day, but with claws, paws, and teeth.

He had the dog put down.

I was around Great Pyrs for a long time, and loved the breed. They and rotts,
smarter then most people, with better judgement, provided they are bred properly, and, there is the rub.

One of the worst feelings I've ever had was being at Ocean Beach in San Francisco, on a holiday, walking on the strand near the Cliff House.

Drunk, rude, San Jose gang banger had a huge Pitt Bull off lead, and he came up and gave myself and my girlfriend a real good sniffing, then, like a good dog, went on his way. I was so mad, since I realized that dog was easily capable of killing my 100 pound girlfriend, and, there was little I had at hand that would have protected her.

In the future, scandium 357 or 9mm Kahr are coming with me in those situations, or better, 45 Super Detonics Combatmaster:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/Detonics%20combat%20master/DCM360PD_0039.jpg

ojibweindian
May 7, 2011, 10:12 AM
I've had a few run-ins with large recalcitrant pooches while jogging. Without exception, pepper spray worked. As a back-up to pepper spray, I carry a 4.5" tanto folder. A knife at contact distances inflicts much more damage than a smallish revolver or semi-auto.

eqlzr
May 7, 2011, 11:07 AM
We think having pets is great. However, for some reason my wife is an aggressive dog magnet, and has been bitten in our neighborhood while simply strolling down the sidewalk. I also have teeth marks on my bicep from many years ago. There is a leash law in our town, and both of those dogs, and many others we encounter on walks, were off leash, and the owners are indignant when you remind them about the leash law, even when their dogs are acting threateningly and out of control. I believe those owners consider their dogs "personal protection". Our personal protection is now metal chisel-tipped hiking staffs. Caliber: 1.5".

jon_in_wv
May 7, 2011, 11:32 AM
People are people and if a person threatens my life I WILL defend myself. This touchy feely crap that you can't defend yourself against an animal that does the same is just garbage. I love my dogs but if they attacked a person I pray they do what they must to defend themselves. I wouldn't be dumb enough to wish my dog survived at the expense of a human being. While some people are naive enough to believe dogs are all sugar, and spice and everything nice the fact is they are animals. I've gotten 14 stitches in my face from my own dog. If the dog had continued the attack after the first bite its likely I would be dead. I carry at a MINIMUM my Ruger LCP when I'm at the city park. I think I could dispatch a dog pretty quickly with it, at least much more quickly than without it.

Guillermo
May 7, 2011, 11:38 AM
1858,

those are beautiful animals.

PRM
May 7, 2011, 11:39 AM
I grew up in a rural farming community where animals had their place in the food chain. As a kid, I had more than one pet that eventually wound up as hamburger or country ham.

One of the funniest statements I ever heard was a young liberal female who was trying to argue the cruelty of killing animals. She said she, "didn't understand why people had to kill animals, why don't they just go to the supermarket and buy the meat where its made???"

Although dogs are not normally on the food chain, I still don't get people who think they are human. And, although I would not necessarily want to kill someone's pet ~ I would not loose a minutes sleep if it threatened me or my family.


I used to take walks with a folding knife in my pocket. A couple of years ago, I had a dog in a sub-division near where I live, come out snarling and showing his teeth at me. I took my knife out of my pocket (never opened it), faced the dog and yelled ~ he backed away and left. About 20 minutes later a white van pulls up along side of me and stops. A young mid-20s guy starts asking me about the incident. Didn't take long to figure out it was his dog. We had a discussion about it and he drove off. Although, he never brandished a gun, I have no doubt by his body posture, and the way he was sitting that I probably had a handgun pointed at me during the whole discussion. My lesson learned, is if you are going to carry always carry. Now, I don't step outside my house without my Walther. I'm glad things ended the way they did, we both got to go home ~ but, its not a good idea to count on that everytime.

"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid." - John Wayne

Karl Hungus
May 7, 2011, 03:30 PM
Dogs are not people and people come first.

Well, except for all the other people living in some suburb where a paraniod ccw jogger decides to wildly bust off six rounds at a charging yorkie.

Listen - if people here want to live in abject terror of dogs then who am I to stand in their way? But if bullets started coming through my window because some cynophobic jogger decides to go SEAL Team 6 on Fido, I will be the first to shoot back. Part of carrying a weapon is acting in a responsible manner. If there is a dog you feel threatened by on your jogging route, the responsible thing to do is CHANGE YOUR JOGGING ROUTE.

Trust me - I love guns. I love scarey guns. I can't wait for WI to pass ccw. But this thread?:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZWoiSkAkOEmrWylP-jAOFy6YdsI48t1hVJhkgZUPl71FPMyw7

=

http://www.bedding-plus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/kiddopotamus-huggacub-luxe-security-blanket.jpg

Guillermo
May 7, 2011, 03:40 PM
Karl,

One fellow who commented on this thread was almost killed by a pack of dogs, saved only by the fact that he had a gun.

Dogs attack and kill people all the time.

It is also very irresponsible to suggest that you would shoot someone for a stray shot.

The view from your high horse is a bit skewed.

You might want to rethink it

macadore
May 7, 2011, 03:59 PM
Well, except for all the other people living in some suburb where a paraniod ccw jogger decides to wildly bust off six rounds at a charging yorkie.

Enough reductio ad absurdum arguments. Your arguments are logically flawed. You sound like the anti-gun crowd. Most ccw joggers are not paranoid and they don't "wildly bust off six rounds at a charging Yorkie". They can also spell paranoid and they know the difference between a bust and a burst. A bust is a breast. I have never seen any jogger bust off anything.

19-3Ben
May 7, 2011, 04:05 PM
The worst part about this thread is that nobody has address what can happen if a dog starts chasing you on a bike. No no, not while you're on a bike. While the dog is on the bike.;)


My black lab:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii131/geminifan/My%20bikes/101_0721.jpg

Friendly, Don't Fire!
May 7, 2011, 04:07 PM
I have a friend (since deceased) who was willing to put a dog down that bit some kid. He had a 12 gauge pump gun. The dog was probably about the size of a black lab, or maybe a bit smaller. He told me he put the barrel against the dog's head and shot. He does not know much about guns. He wanted me to look at the gun to see if it was still safe to shoot. The gun looked fine to me, I could not detect any bulge in the barrel or any kind of damage whatsoever.

Anyway, apparently the one shot to the top of the dog's head did not kill the dog, it started running all around and he had to shoot it a second time! I would have thought at that range, it would nearly blow a dog's head off which is that size!

1858
May 7, 2011, 06:18 PM
Prosser and Guillermo, thanks ... they're really good dogs. The male is 100lb and his sister is 80lb. They're in great shape and enjoy a good life. They're never bitten anyone and are much more interested in running on the trails than anything else. They do exactly what I want them to do. No one gets in the house without my permission. Even when in the house, if you make a move in my direction that they interpret as being aggressive, my dogs take it personally. My neighbor learned this but he was smart enough to quickly lower his arms (was demonstrating a jujitsu move) and all was good.


Enough reductio ad absurdum arguments. Your arguments are logically flawed. You sound like the anti-gun crowd. Most ccw joggers are not paranoid and they don't "wildly bust off six rounds at a charging Yorkie".

So it's logical to speak for "most ccw joggers"? Isn't that also absurd? I have no idea as to the mental state of anyone but myself and to a lesser extent, friends, family and coworkers. I don't presume to speak for others that I don't know.

I hike with my dogs every weekend in the mountains, and when I lived closer to the trails, three times a week. They're off leash the whole time and occasionally we encounter wild pigs, hunters, hunting dogs, hikers, other dogs, and on a few occasions armed individuals planting marijuana plants as well as armed groups stealing marijuana plants. I take a calculated risk with my dogs since they love to run on the trails. They wear fluorescent orange collars on the trail so that a hunter realizes that they're not a pig. In 16 years of hiking up their with four Rottweilers, I've never had a problem other than a couple of hikers telling me that my dogs should be on a leash even though my dogs showed no interest in them at all. I've told those individuals to hike somewhere else if they're scared by dogs being off leash. I've also pointed out that there's no leash law on private land. I never see them again but it's this kind of irrational reaction that concerns me and that I see in this thread.

As shocking as this may seem to those that presume to speak for all firearms owners and concealed carry permit holders, there are many idiots out there that own firearms as well as many idiots out there that have a permit for concealed carry. As a friend pointed out, saying that most firearms owners are responsible is as ridiculous as saying that most drivers are responsible.

Clark
May 8, 2011, 01:43 AM
http://www.dog-bite-law-center.com/
There are approximately 800,000 bites per year in the United States that require medical treatment.

In one study sponsored by the US Governement Centers For Disease Control it was reported that 32% of all dog related killings of human beings in the United States are caused by Pit Bulls attacks, yet Pit Bulls constitute only 2% of all dogs.

What does it all mean?
If you see a pit bull off leash, get ready to pull the gun out, fast.

macadore
May 8, 2011, 03:31 AM
So it's logical to speak for "most ccw joggers"? Isn't that also absurd? I have no idea as to the mental state of anyone but myself and to a lesser extent, friends, family and coworkers. I don't presume to speak for others that I don't know.

I can only speak about what I have observed. If you need a qualifier, none of the ccw joggers I have observed are paranoid and and I have never seen one of them "wildly bust off six rounds at a charging Yorkie". There now, does that satisfy your sense of semantics?

1858
May 8, 2011, 03:41 AM
I can only speak about what I have observed .... none of the ccw joggers I have observed are paranoid

And you ask if that satisfies my sense of semantics .... seriously?

1911Tuner
May 8, 2011, 08:18 AM
Quote:
In one study sponsored by the US Governement Centers For Disease Control it was reported that 32% of all dog related killings of human beings in the United States are caused by Pit Bulls attacks, yet Pit Bulls constitute only 2% of all dogs.

What does it all mean?
If you see a pit bull off leash, get ready to pull the gun out, fast.
**************

It still comes back to the people who handle and teach the dogs. If the Golden Retriever became the "Gangsta Bad Dog" of the month...the bite statistics would shift.

I've been rescuing for 30 years, and up to my neck in it for the last 20. I've crawled under houses and mobile homes to get injured or frightened dogs, and I've got bite scars on both arms from the wrists to the elbows...and I've never been bitten by a Pit. Never.

The breed that gets top billing for the one that I'm never completely comfortable with is the Chow. They're just too hard to "read." I've seen Chows that'll wag their tails and back up on a chain to lure you to within strike distance.

Guillermo
May 8, 2011, 09:55 AM
The breed that gets top billing for the one that I'm never completely comfortable with is the Chow

I am w you on that one John.


Most dogs give you some communication but Chows are like professional poker players

macadore
May 8, 2011, 11:39 AM
And you ask if that satisfies my sense of semantics .... seriously?

My apologies for not satisfying you. Some things are beyond the human scope. :banghead:

jon_in_wv
May 8, 2011, 02:59 PM
And you ask if that satisfies my sense of semantics .... seriously?

Yet you seem so close minded to say that since YOUR dogs haven't bitten anyone and you haven't had any incident with them somehow ALL dogs are safe and anyone who takes caution around large dogs is somehow inferior to your own way of thinking. The fact that thousands of people have been attacked and many killed by Rottweilers and other large dogs has doesn't mean a thing. It must to so nice to be able to lumber around with your self righteous opinion and not have it encumbered by the facts.


Here are some more facts you can ignore:

1. In 2008 9500 were hospitalized by dog attacks
2. Emergency rooms treat an average 1008 people for dog bites each DAY.
3. In 2010 THIRTY FOUR people were killed in dog attacks in the US.

So while you can ignore the facts the rest of us are wise enough to realize the possibility of being attacked by one of the 74 MILLION dogs in the US is a real one and some of us would like to discuss it like rational adults.

1858
May 8, 2011, 03:53 PM
jon_in_wv, the Brady Campaign likes to use statistics to scare people into thinking like them. Since you like statistics, here's another from the link posted by Clark.

"70% of all dog bites occur on the owner's property".

Friendly, Don't Fire!
May 8, 2011, 04:04 PM
I had to go inside some people's basement whom I had just met to look at something in their home construction.

There was this Rotweiler in the basement chained to one of the basement metal support columns. This was absolutely the meanest dog I have EVER seen! All I could visualize is this thing getting loose and tearing my face off! I had to walk by it, away from his reach, to get to the steps to go upstairs. Once upstairs I made it clear that I was afraid of that dog and I do not want it coming up the basement steps while we are in the house, I also do not want it freed until I am back in my truck!

This thing had the hair on its back straight up, it was snarling and growling and foaming at the mouth between the loud barks and growls!

For a while, we had a viscious dog that lived across our street. When I would go out my front door, this thing would come running over like it was going to jump me, it was a Doberman.

After two or more times of that, I loaded the only gun I had at the time - a 20 gauge shotgun with 3" Magnum Buckshot and slugs. I kept the gun loaded in my front entryway at the front door.

One day, when the people were not home, this kid, perhaps 16, came to our door with his face in shreds, bleeding profusely. He tried to go into the house and the dog attacked him. I called the ambulance for him and they came and got him. If I ever had a dog that bit anyone (unless the person was causing harm to another), I would definately have no problem promptly putting the dog down.

1911Tuner
May 8, 2011, 04:24 PM
Let's take a breath and relax.

I've been dealing with dogs for a long time. I love dogs. I don't operate under any unrealistic assumptions when it comes to dogs. Large dogs can and do hurt hundreds of people every year.

Any encounter with a loose/unaccompanied dog over a weight of about 20 pounds calls for a measure of caution. A large number of people are bitten because they walk up to a strange dog and start handling him, and then they're all shocked and outraged when the dog reacts badly. What would your first response be if a stranger walked up and started pawing at you?

Never approach a strange dog. If the dog approaches you, he'll let you know if he wants to be petted. Don't assume that he does. I can't emphasize this enough. Don't look the dog in the eye until he indicates that it's okay. If it's not...don't run from the dog.

All dogs will bite. That's what they're engineered to do. Whether defensive in nature...predatory...or protective, it makes no difference. Push the wrong buttons and you may regret it.

Most bites are rooted in fear. Most bites are warnings...not attacks. It can range from a painful bruise to a crippling or maiming injury...but most bites are not attacks. A genuine attack is brutal and shocking.

A stick is a good defensive weapon. So is pepper spray. A gun is the ultimate, but is rarely necessary to ward off an aggressive dog. I've shut more than a few down by simply yelling: NO! BAD DOG!

If more people used a measure of common sense, the number of bites and/or attacks would drop to a fraction of the national average. Cesar's three rules are good ones. No talk. No touch. No eye contact.

Sam Cade
May 8, 2011, 04:36 PM
3. In 2010 THIRTY FOUR people were killed in dog attacks in the US.

You seem to be implying that 34 is a large number. It is not. Get a little perspective. The population of the US is around 320,000,000 counting illegals.
Cows kill FAR FAR more people every year than dogs do. COWS This is why I kill every cow I see. Sometimes I stop on the side of the road and shoot an entire herd, just to be safe. Never know when they might decide to stampede.
If you look here you will see that in 2005, Tractors killed 16 people in Wisconsin alone. http://www.wiscash.uwex.edu/Pages/StatisticsAndMiscDocuments/FatalitiesReports/fatal05.htm

What gun for a Ford 8N?


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0809058405?tag=innumeracycom&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0809058405&adid=1KB032FMC9B1SFA8S46Z&

1858
May 8, 2011, 04:47 PM
Don't forget lightning!! :what:

64 people are killed each year in the US by lightning and that's why I always go jogging with a copper rod to protect myself against that evil bastard!!

Clark
May 8, 2011, 04:48 PM
Sam Cade

3. In 2010 THIRTY FOUR people were killed in dog attacks in the US.
You seem to be implying that 34 is a large number. It is not. Get a little perspective.


There are ~ 1 bear deaths per year.

Count how many "gun for bear protection" threads there are on the internet.

What does it all mean?

We need more "guns for protection against dogs" threads. Lots more.

I could post pics of my pit bull attack scars.

Justin Holder
May 8, 2011, 04:53 PM
"You seem to be implying that 34 is a large number. It is not. Get a little perspective. The population of the US is around 320,000,000 counting illegals.
Cows kill FAR FAR more people every year than dogs do. COWS This is why I kill every cow I see. Sometimes I stop on the side of the road and shoot an entire herd, just to be safe. Never know when they might decide to stampede.
If you look here you will see that in 2005, Tractors killed 16 people in Wisconsin alone. http://www.wiscash.uwex.edu/Pages/St...ts/fatal05.htm

What gun for a Ford 8N?"

^ It's silly comments like this that get these type of threads closed. ^

Don't ruin it for the rest of us that actually want to learn something.

Sam Cade
May 8, 2011, 04:56 PM
What does it all mean?
We need more "guns for protection against dogs" threads. Lots more.


If we are doing it proportionally then we won't have room for anything other than Bees and Wasps which are REALLY REALLY dangerous.
What caliber for Hymenoptera?

I could post pics of my pit bull attack scars.
I can post pictures of Beagle attack scars.

Sam Cade
May 8, 2011, 05:00 PM
Don't ruin it for the rest of us that actually want to learn something.

What exactly is there to learn here?

Dogs are like any other animal and can be killed with proper shot placement by any caliber with sufficient penetration.

There are usually better alternatives to gunplay.

What else is there to be said?

olafhardtB
May 8, 2011, 06:01 PM
l shot a lot of dogs with a 22. None of them dropped dead, but they all changed thier minds about what they were doing. l was trying to free range chickens. The last pooch that showed up l tr:eek::eek::eek::eek:ained to gaurd the chickens, a far superior solution. Get your own rough dog and take it with you. This worked for me. A good stout stick to back your dog up with is a good idea.

Shaky
May 8, 2011, 06:46 PM
Found this on the topic:

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorDogs.htm

Arizonagunrunner
May 8, 2011, 07:23 PM
micro uzi on the jogging suit. Ankle holster for the 380. Double edged knife on the weak side. Come on. The biggest baddest dog can be dropped with a 22 lr using stingers. If you are jogging/walinkg for exercise, then carry a 38 special in a snub, or a concealed size 380/9/40. Any will work. Common sense people.
People want to bring up the grizzly bears of dogs. The average dog is less the 80 lbs. Any quality weapon today will kill the animal. If you are attacked, and have time, shoot dog as many times as needed, if surprised, stuff your forarm in its mouth, pull weapon, shoot dead. Then go to doctor and get checked out. When you get scared, that is the time to get mean. Dont let fear grip you. After all it isn;t a Lion, Grizzly, or Croc that is trying to bite you.

jon_in_wv
May 8, 2011, 09:36 PM
You seem to be implying that 34 is a large number. It is not. Get a little perspective

I stated a number. There was no implication. Any implication made was yours not mine. The numbers are only a statement that is can and does happen. To pretend that it doesn't is foolish. While you guys can say this or that killed more people its a fact that most dog attacks are not fatal. I'm sure the 9000 plus people who are hospitalized each year by dog attacks are happy to be alive. Most people shot by handguns also survive, does that mean I shouldn't fear a man with a handgun?

Sam Cade
May 8, 2011, 09:58 PM
Any implication made was yours not mine

You put it in all caps, to give weight to the statement.

Emergency rooms treat an average 1008 people for dog bites each DAY.
Emergency rooms treat an average of 8,000 children for sports related injuries each DAY.

What caliber for soccer balls?

So while you can ignore the facts the rest of us are wise enough to realize the possibility of being attacked...

The possibility exists but it is vanishingly small and could be reduced to statistical zero if people followed the advice of post #226

jon_in_wv
May 8, 2011, 10:51 PM
Dude you arguments are childish. Are you saying kids shouldn't wear shinguards for soccer or helmets for football? What exactly is your point? Yes, more people are injured doing other things. You can feel free to make your point any time now.

Sam Cade
May 8, 2011, 11:37 PM
You can feel free to make your point any time now

see post #232
Dogs are like any other animal and can be killed with proper shot placement by any caliber with sufficient penetration.
There are usually better alternatives to gunplay.

..and 1911Tuner in Post #226
If more people used a measure of common sense, the number of bites and/or attacks would drop to a fraction of the national average. Cesar's three rules are good ones. No talk. No touch. No eye contact.

olafhardtB
May 8, 2011, 11:46 PM
shooting aggresive animals or sick ones in the head should be avoided. Skulls deflect bullet and brains are required for rabies checks

Sunliner
May 9, 2011, 12:53 AM
I had the same experience as an earlier poster. About 20 years ago my roommate's dog was run over by a car. It was a very large Chesapeake Bay retriever. The dog was loudly whining and what looked to be terminally wounded laying in the road. My roommate and I decided the best thing to do would be to put the dog out of it's misery. Anyway I stood about ten feet behind the dog and shot it right in the head with a six inch .357. To both my roommate and my surprise the dog jumped up and ran into a pump house in the front yard where he took shade in the summer. At this point we were pretty upset. The dog had been run over, I'd shot it in the head, the female driver and my roommate were totally inconsolably crying, frantic and maybe probably screaming; it's been over 20 years. So I had to go the pump house and with the dog looking at me put another round in him to put him down. It was a fairly traumatic experience.

Smoovbiscuit
May 9, 2011, 01:08 AM
Get a treadmill or move out of the ghetto my brother. Should be more worried about 2 legged snakes than dogs.

I'd think one well placed 32 hr mag shot would kill about any dog. Could be hard to get a good hit on them because they are fast though

Fishslayer
May 9, 2011, 01:20 AM
I'd think one well placed 32 hr mag shot would kill about any dog. Could be hard to get a good hit on them because they are fast though
__________________



You betcha...:eek:
http://www.dogmurderers.com/2011/04/17/cops-spray-33-rounds-execute-dog-video/

Clark
May 9, 2011, 03:55 PM
http://www.dogsbite.org/blog/uploaded_images/katya-todesco-small.jpg

Do a search on fatal pit bull attacks, go to images, and look for children with the throats torn out.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
May 9, 2011, 04:35 PM
I had the same experience as an earlier poster. About 20 years ago my roommate's dog was run over by a car. It was a very large Chesapeake Bay retriever. The dog was loudly whining and what looked to be terminally wounded laying in the road. My roommate and I decided the best thing to do would be to put the dog out of it's misery. Anyway I stood about ten feet behind the dog and shot it right in the head with a six inch .357. To both my roommate and my surprise the dog jumped up and ran into a pump house in the front yard where he took shade in the summer. At this point we were pretty upset. The dog had been run over, I'd shot it in the head, the female driver and my roommate were totally inconsolably crying, frantic and maybe probably screaming; it's been over 20 years. So I had to go the pump house and with the dog looking at me put another round in him to put him down. It was a fairly traumatic experience.
I saw a dog get hit once in the middle of the city and watched as it writhed in pain, I thought someone should put it down.

Apparently, it only had the wind knocked out of him as, about five minutes later, it got up and jogged down the sidewalk just like nothing ever happened! Someone later told me the dog most likely just got the wind knocked out of him.

I hope your dog was in worse shape than that for you to put it down!

Sam Cade
May 9, 2011, 06:08 PM
Do a search on fatal pit bull attacks, go to images, and look for children with the throats torn out.

...or you could look at an analysis of every fatal dog attack in 2009 in the US instead.

Most of the dogs involved in fatalities in 2009, however they may have been described in the news, were found to be dogs of unknown pedigree. In nine of these incidents there is documentation (n=4) or other reasonable evidence (n=5) that the dog or dogs were pure-*bred dogs. Six different breeds were identified in these nine incidents.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/2009-DBRF-Booklet-FINAL-11.pdf

rhoggman
May 9, 2011, 07:00 PM
So we can carry guns to defend ourselves against people.... but once you throw dogs into the picture a lot of folks seem to get offended. Plain and simple thing is in most situations where you have to use a firearm to defend your life you will be held responsible for that actions that you take. Whether a person, a dog, or a black bear is at the other end of your gun you should take the situation seriously.

Some folks are dog experts, some are skilled in hand to hand combat... who knows some of you may be bear whisperers too. Bottom line is everyone comes to the table with a different experience. If you have to defend yourself by all means do, but we should not judge each other based on our own expertise, or lack thereof.

I have seen some wild dogs I would not think twice about shooting if they came near me if for no other reason than they fall into the nuisance category like coyotes, especially if you are tending land with animals; however, that doesn't mean I'm going to cap Sparky the first time he gets a bad attitude either. Not all dogs are house pets.....

More and more it seems that people who make decisions about their animals that society by and large doesn't like... well those people are dealt with like common criminals. I do not condone animal cruelty; however, what happens to the old farmer who puts a dog out of its misery? What if I don't have the $400 it costs to put my dog to sleep if it is no longer fit to live? What about the Korean woman who ha eaten dog all her life

Animals rights movements have gone a little too far, and have ascribed varying levels of value to domesticated animals based on emotions instead of their value to the owner as property.

Prosser
May 9, 2011, 07:52 PM
Nothing like a good dog or cats love. It's pretty much unconditional.
They won't divorce you, and take half your stuff, money, house, car, and rip your heart out.

Putting them down is more difficult, because most people have some horrible feature that compensates for the love you feel towards them. Cats and dogs don't, or you are more willing to forgive your pets short comings.

This is why shooting, or harming someone's animal, if they are good people,
and therefore usually have good dogs, is such a bad act.

The animal generally reflects the owner. Just as some people shouldn't be allowed to raise children, or have them, likewise some people shouldn't be able to own animals. Mike Vick comes to mind...:fire:

Shadow 7D
May 9, 2011, 08:06 PM
OOH
New product Flash
Doggy bone shaped (and flavored)
Hand grenades.

Some dogs are dangerous, and I'd suggest a good can of pepper spray, as they are a damn difficult target to HIT when they are charging you, and I'd rather not shoot myself in the foot after they have latched on.

sixgunner455
May 9, 2011, 08:26 PM
FDF - I watched a dog get hit a few weeks ago. He ended up at the animal hospital, shattered pelvis, rib pokes through most of his internal organs, bleeding out internally, and they put him down.

Poor guy did get up and hobble on three legs a few steps when I put him in the back of the truck.

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