247 People on Terror Watch List Bought Guns


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usmarine0352_2005
April 28, 2011, 07:59 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/28/247-people-terror-watch-list-buy-guns-2010/



247 People on Terror Watch List Bought Guns in 2010

Published April 28, 2011 | Associated Press


WASHINGTON More than 200 people suspected of ties to terrorism bought guns in the U.S. last year legally, FBI figures show.

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M-Cameron
April 28, 2011, 08:02 AM
what constitutes a "tie to terrorism"......that number means nothing without a deffinition.

usmarine0352_2005
April 28, 2011, 08:04 AM
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Big surprise that Lautenburg is pushing this.

lemaymiami
April 28, 2011, 09:04 AM
I once heard Salman Rushdie call our homeland security operation the "Department of False Alarms"..... and I've seen little to disprove it.

loneviking
April 28, 2011, 10:51 AM
And how many should not be on that list? There have been proven to be little kids, 8 or 9 y/old on that list. Others are on the list because they happen to have the same name as somebody that is wanted. Others are on the list because they pissed off the TSA. In the end, it's just Lautenburg perpetually pushing for gun control.

BikerRN
April 28, 2011, 11:00 AM
I agree.

The gun control advocates are now using this to push for closing the so-called "Gun Show Loophole".

Gee, if they already ran a NICS check and it came back approved I fail to see how this would effect private sales? What the gun control advocates want is for every sale to go through a dealer. That would also outlaw Daddy giving his guns to family members before passing on, or family and friends inheriting those guns, without having the transfer go through a dealer.

I oppose all gun control, but then I support freedom.

BikerRN

jerkface11
April 28, 2011, 12:25 PM
Why should people on an arbitrary list be denied their rights?

Patriotme
April 28, 2011, 12:47 PM
How hard would it be to add an entire organization such as the NRA to this list? How about the Tea Party or anyone that opposes the current government.
I don't like the idea of stripping away someone's rights if they haven't done anything. This is especially true as there are almost no means to redress being wrongly added to this list. I suppose if the national news runs your story as they did with Ted Kennedy and a 6 yr old boy then you might get off of this secret list. I suspect that the average American would have a very hard time clearing his/her name.
So the gov estimates that there are a bit under 500,000 on the list. I've seen others estimate that the number is closer to 1 million. As it's a secret list we'll never know.
I do know that there is a lot of potential for abuse and it would not be hard to add a local gun club to the list or any organization that is against the current Administration.

FROGO207
April 28, 2011, 01:09 PM
whatcha wanna bet that an one of us that have been flagged by the ATF for multiple firearms purchases within the reportable time limits are on this list.:banghead: There is a fine line that has been arbitrarily drawn as to who is safe and who needs watching. As stated there are a bunch of us that are on that enemy list because we are doing what we always do on a daily basis resulting to no harm to anyone for that matter.:fire: Suppose they are not bothering to watch our credit card purchases ???:scrutiny: I am on a few of those lists I am sure.:neener:

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2011, 01:35 PM
Any commoner who believes he has a right to keep and bear arms is a suspect. Suspects aren't allowed to buy guns. Solves that!

No, we're not quite that far down the path to socialist paradise yet.

Dr.Rob
April 28, 2011, 01:53 PM
Um if they KNOW there was a sale then how is it an issue?

xXxplosive
April 28, 2011, 01:56 PM
Scare Tactic.............by the Left.

Vern Humphrey
April 28, 2011, 02:05 PM
Should a person lose his right to keep and bear arms with no trial, no crime, nothing but rumors to back up such a drastic step?

hirundo82
April 28, 2011, 02:09 PM
Should a person lose his right to keep and bear arms with no trial, no crime, nothing but rumors to back up such a drastic step?

Frank Lautenberg and Carolyn McCarthy obviously think so.

davidatcs
April 28, 2011, 02:11 PM
Anybody read TIPPING POINT by Frank Clarke?

mrbro
April 28, 2011, 03:11 PM
So they would have us return to the era of McCarthyism? Where peoples rights were violated and lives/careers ruined because some government official claimed their names were on a secret list?

We need to be protected from them as well as terrorism.

Vern Humphrey
April 28, 2011, 03:12 PM
Frank Lautenberg and Carolyn McCarthy obviously think so
And we know what ardent supporters of the Constitution they are.:barf:

Owen Sparks
April 28, 2011, 04:28 PM
Posting on this forum might get your name on a list somewhere if the wrong people get in power. No American should be denied constitutional rights without due process. The terror watch list should be limited to just that; watching. If it goes beyond that without trial and conviction it becomes the tip of a very dangerous wedge.

gatorjames85
April 28, 2011, 04:32 PM
More than 200 people suspected of ties to terrorism bought guns in the U.S. last year legally, FBI figures show.

No duh... Many (if not most) of the people on this list have done nothing wrong. They certainly haven't been granted any form of Due Process, which used to be required to deprive one of their Constitutional rights.:rolleyes:

Lord Teapot
April 28, 2011, 10:55 PM
terrorists: they buy guns

this was news to me, i always figured terrorists stole their guns.

armarsh
April 28, 2011, 11:29 PM
How about this headline instead: Government wants to deprive 247 citizens of constitutional rights without due process.

Zoogster
April 28, 2011, 11:39 PM
What numerous people seem to have missed entirely is that perhaps they are keeping track of who bought guns in the first place in violation of FOPA.

Is this another Bush approved Obama continued, Attorney General supported, policy that does whatever it wants because it creates legal exemptions to what they are supposed to do in order to "fight terrorism"?
Perhaps we need to start looking at the people that are not removed from power every 4-8 years, and hold them accountable for unconstitutional policies they implement.
The official chief and cabinet changes, but many of the rest stay in the chain of command year after year. Scapegoating the constantly changing leader seems to be a way for the rest to do unconstitutional things for entire careers.


So people on an arbitrary list who have committed no prohibiting offenses bought guns.
Felonies are so easy to charge these days, just conspiracy to think about something illegal is a felony, if they really wanted them prohibited they would be prohibited.
No it isn't about these individuals, this is a push to create an arbitrary list subject to no Constitutional or due process oversight that can strip people of a guaranteed right at the whim of whoever wants to add someone to a list. If accomplished such a list would grow exponentially to make use of this unconstitutional capability.

Grousefeather
April 28, 2011, 11:41 PM
I recall a few years back, when Ted Kennedy was on the list. Maybe that was not in error.;)

M-Cameron
April 28, 2011, 11:48 PM
So people on an arbitrary list who have committed no prohibiting offenses bought guns.
Felonies are so easy to charge these days, just conspiracy to think about something illegal is a felony, if they really wanted them prohibited they would be prohibited.
No, this is a push to create an arbitrary list subject to no Constitutional or due process oversight that can strip people of a guaranteed right at the whim of whoever wants to add someone to a list. If accomplished such a list would grow exponentially to make use of this unconstitutional capability

actually, conspiracy is a little more than just thinking about something illegal.....i believe there is some form of planning and organization that must take place for it to be considered a conspiracy.

example.....me thinking about how to rob a bank is not a conspiracy....

me getting burglary tools, forming a heist team, taking surveillance photos,renting a van, buying plane tickets to mexico, ect. would be considered conspiracy.

gatorjames85
April 29, 2011, 09:20 AM
actually, conspiracy is a little more than just thinking about something illegal

I'm pretty sure Zoogster was being sarcastic, but yes you are correct.

Sav .250
April 29, 2011, 09:32 AM
"Legally"..............seems to be the key word here. "Suspected ties. "
Innocent till proven guilty. Nothing like ...rattling the cage door.

lobo9er
April 29, 2011, 09:57 AM
that list is growing everyday. I know of a SGT. in the Army who was on the "NO FLY" list found out on the way to active duty. "Legally buying" and "suspected" is key words as others have pointed out. these are not proven guilty people. In 2008 there were over 90,000 on that list and i imagine that list has grown since. In some stories floating around it only takes 1 tip to be put into the data base. One passer by that says jonny has a couple containers of gas in his garage and I have seen him with a firearm.

atblis
April 29, 2011, 10:52 AM
Tell me who is on the list and why, and maybe I'll care.

Owen Sparks
April 29, 2011, 11:48 AM
The National Firearms Act of 1934 outlawed "gangster weapons" How long do you think it will be before some politician labels your modern firearms as "terrorists weapons"?

Bubbles
April 29, 2011, 11:51 AM
In 2008 there were over 90,000 on that list and i imagine that list has grown since.
According to the article there are 450,000 people currently on the list.

merlinfire
April 29, 2011, 12:01 PM
Last I checked, being suspected of anything was neither a conviction nor an indictment, and certainly not a valid pretext for the suspension of Constitutionally-protected rights.

skoro
April 29, 2011, 12:09 PM
How about this headline instead: Government wants to deprive 247 citizens of constitutional rights without due process.


Those 247 individuals WERE allowed to purchase firearms. And the sales were legal. Maybe they belong on the watch list, maybe they don't. We have no way of knowing. But the government didn't deprive them of anything.

gatorjames85
April 29, 2011, 12:14 PM
He wrote want to deprive. Certain members of congress (part of the government) do want to deprive the people on this list of their right to buy arms.

GCBurner
April 29, 2011, 01:30 PM
Anybody can be put on the "Terror Watch List" for any reason, and never be able to find out WHY their name wound up there. I know someone who got on the TSA "No Fly List" for having an angy vocal argument with a rude and abusive TSA agent at LAX. You can be watched as a "potential terrorist" simply based on an anonymous tip from someone with a grudge, if whoever make up the lists simply thinks it sounds "credible".

The Lone Haranguer
April 29, 2011, 01:41 PM
Even people on a "watch list" haven't been arrested, let alone tried or convicted, for any crime. How many people are wrongly on the "list" through similarity in names, etc.? And, the definition of "terrorist" is too vague to start with. Finally, all you have to do, as has been pointed out, is look at who supports this.

xfyrfiter
April 29, 2011, 04:35 PM
SUSPECTED not convicted, until we become a country of "guilty until proven innocent" these persons have rights.

Shadow 7D
April 29, 2011, 04:53 PM
Damn civil rights
we should just ban them and let everybody live under the governments thumb...

COME ON, it's a stupid piece of hack journalism, if they did something, I'm sure some prosecutor or fed would try to build a case and get around to

CONVICTING THEM
until then, they can buy guns just like me, and I have no problems with that, sure beats the alternatives.

LKB3rd
April 29, 2011, 04:59 PM
They call it the "no fly no buy" list, when supporters of this talk about it. You could probably get info by googling that.

hermannr
April 29, 2011, 05:53 PM
If this list is so secret, how do these two know if any, or even maybe all of these watched people purchased anything?

Oh, I know they grabbed a number out of their backsides. Supprised the number isn't bigger, with 500,000+ on the list it should have been more like 220,000 to keep up with teh average gun ownership in the US.

You know, there was another guy that did this kind of stuff...he died in a bunker in Berlin...oh yea, then that other guy from Moscow....

Larry E
April 29, 2011, 11:52 PM
If Lautenberg and McCarthy are involved in ANYTHING I'm automatically against it on principle! As others have said if someone is on someone's fecal roster it's no reason to deny them any civil right. Doesn't the Constitution, I know old parchment written by a bunch of dead white guys, say that a person has the right to confront their accuser?

Here we had a Canadian guy and his girlfriend arrested for buying guns with falsified ID. She could legally enter the country, but he couldn't because he's a convicted felon in Canada. She'd drive across the border legally, then he'd just walk across someplace between border stations and she'd pick him up on the US side. He bought 10 or 12 guns at a gun show here with his falsified ID, and when he left the show and got into the car she was waiting in they were arrested. The RCMP and ICE evidently have had an eye on this guy for awhile I guess.

He pleaded not guilty to the charges, but I think he's going to have a hard time convincing anyone that he was just framed. Unless of course his lawyer gets 90% of the evidence against him dropped. Or BATFE is letting him "walk" guns into Canada because it worked so well on the other border.... :mad:

stickhauler
April 30, 2011, 01:54 AM
The fact remains the BATFE opposed a "no fly-no buy" law because enforcing it would put on-going investigations at risk. Or that was the cited reason. Considering the controversy over "Fast & Furious", perhaps we need question which side of the terrorism deal the BATFE is really on though.

TexasBill
April 30, 2011, 06:51 AM
...Considering the controversy over "Fast & Furious", perhaps we need question which side of the terrorism deal the BATFE is really on though.

Their own, as always.

Somebody needs to remind Sen. Lautenberg that being on the list does not make you a terrorist. Furthermore, depriving someone of their Constitutional rights without due process is, in itself, a violation of the Fifth Amendment. If the Attorney General is actually an attorney, I am not sure how he could have overlooked this.

mgkdrgn
April 30, 2011, 12:49 PM
yes, and that list at one time included Ted Kennedy, several other members of the Senate and Congress, at least two state Governors, a multitude of airline pilots, a number of US Military officers rank of General and above ... yadda yadda yadda.

The "list" is secret, drawn from multiple questionable sources, and published phonetically so as to cover multiple spellings of a single name.

In other words, it's a worthless piece of trash that should be given no more credence than the pulp newspaper who's headline screams "The Government Stole My Alien Baby!"

akodo
April 30, 2011, 06:13 PM
Lets say we implement some sort of 'check terrorist watch list' for FFL transactions and deny based on that.

If I was a terrorist about once a month I'd transfer a gun from Terrorist A to Terrorist B, and then back again. This would cost, what, $20 shipping fees and $20 transfer charge?

For $40 a month I'd be able to tell my cover wasn't blown.

so what would happen is if there was a REAL suspected terrorist with solid evidence and he was under FBI under surveillance, they'd NOT put him on the watch list.

The terrorist watch list already is composed almost exclusively of 'probably not...but maybe' people, such a rule would just lock it to 'almost positively not...but maybe'

Millwright
April 30, 2011, 08:39 PM
I'll assume your "Big" is sarcasm...... >MW

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