building a suppressor


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kingcheese
April 28, 2011, 11:17 PM
when you build a suppressor, how much of it can you modify after the fact, i am assuming its like a firearms kinda deal where one specific part can not change(like a frame or reciever)

i want to build a supressor with a tube i can change, because id like to use a redbull can for the tube, but i want it replaceable,

with that goal, how do i go about building one so i dont have to pay 200 bucks every time i have to repair my red bull "can"

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dmlehto
April 28, 2011, 11:22 PM
WOW, really? aside from the soda can idea i think you'll be safe. let us know how well it works.

Rail Driver
April 29, 2011, 12:08 AM
I don't see a red bull can holding up to much more than .22LR pressures at best. It would also not be nearly rigid enough to be effective. You'd be better off buying one of those adapter deals that let you use an oil filter as a replaceable suppressor. (legally of course)

Telekinesis
April 29, 2011, 12:34 AM
I think you'd have a hard time making the exterior tube a replaceable item unless you could figure out a way to put the serial number somewhere else. Even then you get into the whole aspect that replaceable wipes for suppressors still need a tax and stamp for each one...

kingcheese
April 29, 2011, 01:38 AM
i guess i should ask it this way, what parts can be repaired/replaced with out paying for another stamp?

Zak Smith
April 29, 2011, 02:07 AM
Even an SOT cannot replace the tube if it is the serialized part.

On a non-SOT with a Form 1 suppressor, you cannot possess any extra parts for the suppressor, period.

Bubbles
April 29, 2011, 08:19 AM
For all intents and purposes the ATF equates the silencer tube to a firearm frame/receiver. Replacing it constitutes manufacturing another suppressor.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-silencers.html

OldmanFCSA
April 29, 2011, 11:35 AM
Make the can capable of sliding over an existing silencer body - change it as your tastes change, use o-rings to hold in place.

kingcheese
April 29, 2011, 11:37 AM
Make the can capable of sliding over an existing silencer body - change it as your tastes change, use o-rings to hold in place.
wouldnt that cover up the serial numbers and get me in trouble other ways?

kingcheese
April 29, 2011, 11:42 AM
Even then you get into the whole aspect that replaceable wipes for suppressors still need a tax and stamp for each one...
what exactly is a replaceable wipe?
and what does SOT mean?

dprice3844444
April 29, 2011, 11:43 AM
on some mac silencers,they have a nomex cover,some use a rub berized cover.as long as it is not permanent.just cut a hole where the numbers are

kingcheese
April 29, 2011, 01:52 PM
i guess changing the baffles also counts as building a new suppressor?

i really want to try it, but i want something i can slowly modify, without going broke

Zak Smith
April 29, 2011, 02:36 PM
There's no need to guess when the published law and ATF rulings will tell you exactly what you need to know.

RhinoDefense
April 29, 2011, 03:23 PM
Even an SOT cannot replace the tube if it is the serialized part.
Correction: An SOT may replace the tube. When the suppressor is transfered to anyone other than another SOT or LE agency, a transfer tax applies.

Bubbles
April 29, 2011, 03:24 PM
Even then you get into the whole aspect that replaceable wipes for suppressors still need a tax and stamp for each one...
Wipes? :eek: That technology is so..... 1970's...
We use baffles or monocore designs now.

and what does SOT mean?
SOT = Special Occupational Taxpayer. In the firearm world it's a dealer or manufacturer who pays a tax to FedGov each year for the privilege of being able to make or transfer NFA firearms without paying an individual tax on each one.

So you, as a non-manufacturer/non-SOT individual, would file a Form 1, pay $200, and wait for the approved form to be returned prior to making your suppressor. As a manufacturer who has paid the annual SOT I file a Form 2, I have 24 hours after making the firearm to submit my form, and pay nothing.

RhinoDefense
April 29, 2011, 03:28 PM
Certain government agencies specify reduction numbers in their MENS that cannot be obtained with today's baffle technology alone, as good as it is. Wipes are necessary in those instances.

Zak Smith
April 29, 2011, 03:35 PM
Correction: An SOT may replace the tube. When the suppressor is transfered to anyone other than another SOT or LE agency, a transfer tax applies.
It's no longer the same suppressor. They have essentially destroyed the original one and replaced it with a new tube with a new serial number. That was the point of the ATF letter from a couple years ago.

Telekinesis
April 29, 2011, 03:37 PM
Wipes? That technology is so..... 1970's...
We use baffles or monocore designs now.

I'm pretty sure I've seen some suppressors with wipes recently... I know the design itself is old, but I don't know if you can do enough with baffles to get a really short suppressor as quiet as you can if you use wipes instead.

I'm not sure how old this can is, but cans with wipes are still out there.

Regardless, I was using it as a point that suppressor parts can't be swapped out without paying the tax again.

I may also have a pic of an even shorter can with wipes but I can't find it right now.

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/Telekinesis228/kacsnaponberetta04.jpg



Edit:
Ahh, here we go. A nice short suppressor with a few wipes.

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/Telekinesis228/poseidonr.jpg

As an aside, I just think I found my next gun related gift! That's a pretty nice suppressor (http://www.thompsonmachine.net/?page_id=99)for $350!

RhinoDefense
April 30, 2011, 12:42 AM
It's no longer the same suppressor. They have essentially destroyed the original one and replaced it with a new tube with a new serial number. That was the point of the ATF letter from a couple years ago.
Read what I posted.

jmorris
April 30, 2011, 09:22 AM
Wipes? That technology is so..... 1970's...

We use baffles or monocore designs now.

The checkmate is a monocore that can also use wipes.

Zak Smith
April 30, 2011, 11:18 AM
I did. It's true another tax has to be paid, because it's no longer the same suppressor in the eyes of the ATF. I was just commenting on this phrasing
When the suppressor is ..
Legally, it's a new suppressor that the SOT happened to use some old parts for.

zstephens13
April 30, 2011, 01:26 PM
Why not try making a normal (or buying a normal) suppressor and either get it the right width that you could cut the top and bottom of a red bull can off then just slide it over the suppressor like a sleeve? OR get/make a suppressor and have a decal made to look like a red bull can? No repair necessary.

RhinoDefense
April 30, 2011, 06:01 PM
Legally, it's a new suppressor that the SOT happened to use some old parts for.
And legally each suppressor part is a suppressor in and of itself.

Zak Smith
April 30, 2011, 09:04 PM
And legally each suppressor part is a suppressor in and of itself. Your point?

Nope, that's not how it works for Class 2 SOT's. A Class 2 SOT can possess as many parts as he wants and each part is not a silencer, in that he does not have to register them (Form 2). He only has to register them on a Form 2 when they "completed" into silencers (sidestepping the definition of that here, it's irrelevant).

If we're talking about "repairs" to a certain registered silencer to mean that the registered silencer is not destroyed and a new one created and registered, then an 02 SOT cannot repair the tube if it's the serialized part. If he does "replace the tube", he has created a new silencer that requires a new Form 2, and the old silencer has to be documented with ATF to be destroyed.

The "Silencer parts are silencers" does not apply to Class 2 SOTs.

Anyway, my point is that thinking about a serialized tube "replacement" as if it were any other part does not compute with ATF regs. If an SOT replaces a tube, they are destroying the old silencer, taking it off the registry, and then registering a new one.

RhinoDefense
May 1, 2011, 10:13 AM
The definition of a silencer applies to everyone, even class 2 SOTs. The privilege of being a class 2 SOT means you can manufacture as many silencers and silencer parts as you want. The law does not change the definition of a silencer for class 2 SOTs, it's the same for everyone. The law states parts are considered silencers themselves, without explicit exception applying to class 2 SOTs.

Firearm muffler or firearm silencer. Any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication

So where in the law does it state the exemption for class 2 SOTs? It states parts of silencers are silencers and it applies to everyone, SOT or not.

Zak Smith
May 1, 2011, 12:00 PM
The phrase "silencer parts are silencers" is used to emphasize that people who own Form 1/4 suppressors cannot own extra parts. To that extent, it does not apply to 02 SOTs. It does not apply because 02 SOTs can possess boxes of parts and they are not required to file the Form 2 on them until they are substantially completed into a silencer. Otherwise manufacturing would be impossible. That is why that phrase as used does not apply to 02 SOTs.

RhinoDefense
May 1, 2011, 01:10 PM
You don't get it. I'm done trying to reason with you.

Zak Smith
May 1, 2011, 02:16 PM
Here is what I wrote, in the words of the ATF themselves-

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf


NOTE: the language in the definition of silencer contains no provisions that permit an owner of a
registered silencer to possess spare or replacement components for the silencer. However, licensed
manufacturers who are SOTs may possess spare silencer components in conjunction with their
manufacturing operations.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-7.pdf

7.4.6 Marking silencer parts. Some FFLs/SOTs assemble silencers, for subsequent sale, from parts
acquired from their contractors (NOTE: this activity is the “manufacture” of NFA firearms requiring the
assembler and the contractor to qualify as manufacturers under the GCA and the NFA). Under these
circumstances, ATF takes the position that contractors are not required to place identifying markings on
silencer parts. They may, however, place an assembler’s markings on these parts if the assembler so
desires. It should also be noted that these contractors are not required to register the parts they produce
by filing Forms 2, nor are they required to obtain approved Forms 3 to transfer the parts to assemblers.

The preceding two quotes support that silencer parts in the possession of 02 SOTs are not required to b registered; ie, they make a distinction between silencer parts and substantially assembled silencers in the context of 02 SOTs.


The following quotes support that replacing a tube constitutes manufacturing a new suppressor-

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-b.pdf

d cap bearing the markings is damaged and requires replacement.
Q2: May a Federal firearms licensee repair a silencer by replacing worn or damaged
components?
A: A person who is licensed under the Gun Control Act (GCA) to manufacture firearms and who has
paid the special (occupational) tax to manufacture National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms may replace a
component part or parts of a silencer. Repairs may not be done if they result in removal, obliteration, or
alteration of the serial number, as this would violate 18 U.S.C. 922(k). If a silencer part bearing the
serial number, other than the outer tube, must be replaced, the new part must be marked with the same
serial number as the replacement part.
The term "repair" does not include replacement of the outer tube of the silencer. The outer tube is the
largest single part of the silencer, the main structural component of the silencer, and is the part to which
all other component parts are attached. The replacement of the outer tube is so significant an event that
it amounts to the "making" of a new silencer. As such, the new silencer must be marked, registered and
transferred in accordance with the NFA and GCA.
...
Persons other than qualified manufacturers may repair silencers, but replacement parts are "silencers" as
defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(24) that must be registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA
and GCA.



Q3: May the outer tube of a registered silencer be repaired due to damage? If so, may the repair
be done by someone other than the original manufacturer?
A damaged outer tube may be repaired by any Federal firearms licensee qualified to perform
gunsmithing or by the registered owner. The repair may not alter the dimensions or caliber of the
silencer, except that the length of the outer tube may be reduced, as set forth above. The repair may not
be performed if it results in the removal, obliteration, or alteration of the serial number, as this would
violate 18 U.S.C. 922(k). In that case, the silencer may be returned to the registered owner in its
original, damaged condition or destroyed. A replacement silencer must be registered and transferred to
the registrant of the damaged silencer in the same manner as a new silencer, subject to the registration
and transfer procedures of the NFA and GCA.


Q4: If the outer tube is destroyed or damaged beyond repair, may it be replaced?
A: Unless the outer tube is replaced by the manufacturer prior to its removal from the manufacturing
premises for purposes of sale or distribution (see Q6), the replacement of the outer tube amounts to the
making of a new silencer.

Ranb
May 3, 2011, 02:44 PM
A person who makes a silencer on an ATF form 1 can make repairs, but not replace parts, unless he/she sends it to an SOT class 2 or pays another $200 tax. Repairs that do not involve parts replacement, lengthening the tube or changing the bore can also be performed.

The only exception to replacing parts without another tax is wipes. The ATF says (I have a letter) that the owner can destroy the old wipes then make replacement wipes. Do not have extra wipes sitting around though.

Ranb

kingcheese
May 3, 2011, 07:28 PM
The only exception to replacing parts without another tax is wipes. The ATF says (I have a letter) that the owner can destroy the old wipes then make replacement wipes. Do not have extra wipes sitting around though.
i don't understand the concept of a wipe and how it works, but the oil filter suppressor was suppose to belegal to replace the filter because it is a wipe, when you replace the wipes do they have to be the exact same type? if you dont see what i am getting at, can i make an adapater to allow me to shoot through a red bull can in the same sense that the oil filter setup as long as i make it so the red bull can has to be modified before it is used?

Ranb
May 4, 2011, 01:38 AM
A wipe is a rubber or metal disk that typically has a X shaped slot cut into it. As they wear out quickly, the ATF recognizes that they need to be replaced on a regular basis. I do not know about the "oil filter" wipe, but it sounds weird and I have no idea if the ATF would really consider it to be a wipe.

You can make any kind of silencer that you want as long as you pay the $200 tax. I have no idea if the ATF would consider a red bull can to be a wipe. If it contains other silencer parts and does not wear out, I think they would consider it to be a silencer body and not replaceable by a form 1 maker without paying another tax.

I think that paying a $200 tax for any kind of silencer that needs parts replacement each time you use it is folly. Buy a lathe if you do not have access to one and make silencers that last thousands of rounds. If you make ten silencers for your own personal use, that lathe will pay for itself.

I spent $2000 on a lathe and tools to make a dozen silencers so far and it is money very well spent.

Ranb

kingcheese
May 4, 2011, 02:35 AM
so if i actually shot through, meaning bullet hitting the redbull can, it would be a wipe, so really, i could make a "adaptor" being the tube endcap and threaded piece like on a regular supressor, and use the redbull can as a wipe,

do i got that right?

if that where the case i could make a tube with the sides cut out like a birdcage flash hider and place the redbull can inside that to act as a wipe, it would still be interesting and i could still see my redbull can

for thoose who think im just wanting to do this to be cheap, you are only partly right, the other reason is for that "what in the world is that thing on the end of your gun" look, when i go shooting

and can i get some dimmensions for 22caliber silencer somwhere, perferably the id and lenght of the tube?

Ranb
May 4, 2011, 09:22 AM
A red bull can is as high and narrower than a 12 ounce soda can right? I think it would suck very bad as a wipe and provide little noise suppression. A typical 22 rim fire silencer is 1x6 inches with .035" to .065" walls.

Even if you fill the can with mesh and let the bullet punch through that, the suppression wil be poor and acucracy will be worse.

Ranb

kingcheese
May 6, 2011, 09:28 AM
wel i was thinking of the larger can, witch is maybe 2-3 inches taller and a little thicker then the average redbull can

noise suppression would suck, but it would look awsome, well, very hill-billyish, witch might as well be awsome

the onlything stopping me from doing it is i dont know enough about it to start the project

so a wipe is something, that the bullet comes into contact with and destroys over time/wears out. and a wipe does not require a specail tax

further more the atf doesnt discuss it in the link posted earlier, and the atf provides very specific details about what is considered making a new suppressor, so i believe i could even have a manufactur replace the baffles as long as they are replaced with originals or close to them

the atf is specifically provides examples, all of witch say that changing caliber of suppreeor and changing the dimensions of the tube count as making a new silencer, within reason, the silencer can be made a little shorter if repaired, and the baffles can be changed to the next closes thing if exact parts are not available

last question, how old do i need to be to buy/build a legal suppressor?

Ranb
May 6, 2011, 12:08 PM
I think the looks as well as the suppression would suck. You need to educate yourself about machine tools and silencers in general before you start. Take a look at http://www.silencertalk.com and some machine tool forums.

Making a wipe requires the same tax as making any other silencer part. A licensed manufacture can replace parts with anything, but actually getting a person to work on this abortion you propose is unlikely to happen.

You need to be at least 18 to get an ATF form 1 approved. The 21 year restriction only applies to a transfer from a licensed dealer.

Ranb

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