Weapons ban


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rogertc1
April 29, 2011, 07:28 PM
I went into my dads nursing home today to pay my monthly $4600. care bill at the Maquoketa Care Center 1202 German St., Maquokets, Iowa I came upon on a no gun sign at the front door. I talked to the manager who said it was the Nursing Association. She asked me if I was carrying. I was not. She said she doesn't want guns in there. I said I'd take my dad out (I PAY) she shrugged and said go ahead. So I will.

Jackson County in Iowa had been a shall issue since 1972 and has issued carry permits. Iowa recently went to a total all issue state as of Jan 1st. It is not up to the County Sheriff anymore.

Anyway I was upset, I have had a carry permit since 1972 and now it is not permitted to see my dad?

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Larry E
April 29, 2011, 07:34 PM
Neither of the hospitals here or any of their satellite facilities allow guns inside. They even refused to allow uniformed police officers inside in one of them (can't remember which) because they were armed.

That's about as stupid as anything I've ever heard or seen. Healthcare "professionals" who act like scared little kids deserve to lose business IMHO, but when they all get together a person is between a rock and a hard place and no place else to go. :mad:

Cal-gun Fan
April 29, 2011, 07:46 PM
On one hand I can understand it-they don't want some guy with mental problems to get a hold of one because someone is careless.

But mostly I'm sure its just ignorance. Guns are "scary" after all.

InkEd
April 29, 2011, 07:52 PM
It is standard policy at most hospitals.

macadore
April 29, 2011, 08:22 PM
It's been illegal to carry in every nursing home I have in Texas that I have been in. It may be a state law. There are a lot of irrational people in nursing homes and hospitals. I'm not sure restricting firearms in these environments is a bad idea.

brboyer
April 29, 2011, 08:28 PM
You are talking about a private business?

Their house, their rules.

AND

Concealed means concealed (as long as your state/local laws don't outlaw going in, armed, past a sign or being personally notified)

gym
April 29, 2011, 08:36 PM
LAst time I was in for stiches from a bad cut, the doctor who knew me said do you have your gun in the car, I said yes, he said , get it, they locked down another local hospital because someone started shooting in the cafeteria. They were all scared to death. I said if someone with authority gives me written permission I would do so, and that was that. They thought it might not just be a local thing. Screwed up world now as I was saying in another post when I saw this one.

General Geoff
April 29, 2011, 08:41 PM
They even refused to allow uniformed police officers inside in one of them (can't remember which) because they were armed.
At least they're being consistent, unlike most places which have a magical LEO exception to their "no guns" policies.

SharpsDressedMan
April 29, 2011, 10:47 PM
Too bad you asked about the sign. Now they know that you know. In some instances, I have found an alternate entrance to a place that has one of those signs at the FRONT door, but failed to post them at other entrances. Not having a sign posted is a good excuse for not knowing about the restriction, and thus NOT being liable for knowing about it.

KingMedicine
April 29, 2011, 11:11 PM
I work in a hospital, and its not exactly the hospitals policy against weapons, but its because of the accrediation on the hospital. It places rules that must be followed to be accredited. We have ended up taking the idea that weapons are not allowed, but we dont ask and you dont tell. And if someone shows up in the ED with a pistol, we just lock it up (if they are in no shape to have one medically) and give it back when they exit or to family. But its not really the hospitals choice...

Robert
April 29, 2011, 11:11 PM
If it is a private run facility they can make all the silly rules they want. And, as you have done, you can choose to no longer support them.

wundudnee
April 29, 2011, 11:45 PM
My wife was in a nursing home once and i asked one of the wardens, " if I were put into this place could I bring my hobbie to the nursing home?" She replied, "oh yes we encourage that." I said, "oh good, I collect guns." She said, "oh we wouldn't allow that." I explained to her that I only wanted to bring one gun and one cartridge.
:D

Yarddog
April 29, 2011, 11:46 PM
"[They even refused to allow uniformed police officers inside in one of them (can't remember which) because they were armed.]"

NOT if he is there on Duty & conducting a investigaton ; )
Y/D

Ignition Override
April 30, 2011, 01:56 AM
My father (just died at 89) and mother-in-law have lived for years in one of the better complexes in San Antonio.

Elderly people there with serious medical problems have committed suicide, and so the logic at the A.R.C. seem to be that guns should not be allowed.

As these guys were all Army and Air Force officers (many had full careers), it is interesting to imagine the varieties of guns which some must have had when they were younger.
My father-in-law "liberated" some handguns from Hermann Goering's Haus in Bavaria in '45, but gave them away as gifts a few years later.

coloradokevin
April 30, 2011, 02:35 AM
I have family back in Ohio (where I grew up), and my grandmother stays on the "independent" side of a facility that does independent living, assisted living, and nursing care. This place also recently added a LOT of signs, indicating that weapons were not permitted on site. Very agitating.

Some of the hospitals here in Colorado are also very touchy about that subject, even for commissioned and on-duty law enforcement officers. There have been a couple of occasions where our guys have had to put a doctor in their place when they "ordered" us to disarm before talking to a victim in an ER. Fortunately those were at least isolated incidents, involving certain individuals on the hospital's staff (as a matter of policy, I don't think the hospital officially wants to disarm the cops, and we refuse to disarm for them anyway).

Still, it's pretty bad that things have gone so sideways in this country that the hospital employees don't even want the police officers to be armed! I can only imagine how badly they treat everyday citizens (and Colorado is a pretty good state for CCW).

TexasBill
April 30, 2011, 05:10 AM
I am not sure how one goes about "ordering" a sworn law enforcement officer (uniformed or not) to disarm, considering that they are exempt from most prohibitions in every state of which I am aware. And if the officer is there on official business, the doctor, nurse or administrator attempting to prevent the officer from entering, with sidearm, would quickly find themselves with a more pressing problem, like who was going to post their bail.

That being said, most hospitals have patients who are not mentally stable for one reason or another, and it's likely they are concerned about some of them obtaining a firearm.

MachIVshooter
April 30, 2011, 04:16 PM
Does their sign carry weight of law? If not, you have the option of ignoring it.

You are talking about a private business?

Their house, their rules.

Except it's not a private residence. It's an open to the public business. They don't get to discriminate the way a homeowner (or renter) can. This is explicitly outlined in many respects, and I personally feel that it extends beyond the race/creed/color/sex/etc. that is specifially prohibited.

If the sign carries weight of law, then you are breaking the law if you choose to ignore it, and I cannot advocate that. But if it does not, then it is only an ethics issue, and I personally have no qualms about disregarding that sign unless the company explicitly accepts full responsibility for my own and my family's safety and accepts the corrosponding liability of limiting my ability to defend them.

Some of the hospitals here in Colorado are also very touchy about that subject

And some have no signage at all, and it seems to have no rhyme or reason. Sky Ridge, a very large and relatively new facility, has no prohibition (at least not 5 months ago when my girl was there). But Swedish is a total disarmament zone with metal detectors in place and full time security guards.

Harley Quinn
April 30, 2011, 04:26 PM
I think you are cutting your nose off to spite your face (old saying) by taking your father out of a nursing home...Just a real bad decision IMHO...

:confused:

MachIVshooter
April 30, 2011, 04:39 PM
I think you are cutting your nose off to spite your face (old saying) by taking your father out of a nursing home...Just a real bad decision IMHO...

Let's be fair and assume that he is planning on putting him in another home with more agreeable policies.

akodo
April 30, 2011, 06:03 PM
or further, you can as them that being they deny you the ability to defend yourself what kind of protection do they offer, or what kind of financial backing do they have to withstand the lawsuits if something DID happen and you were a 'sitting duck' due to their policy

brboyer
April 30, 2011, 06:09 PM
I am not sure how one goes about "ordering" a sworn law enforcement officer (uniformed or not) to disarm, considering that they are exempt from most prohibitions in every state of which I am aware. And if the officer is there on official business, the doctor, nurse or administrator attempting to prevent the officer from entering, with sidearm, would quickly find themselves with a more pressing problem, like who was going to post their bail.

That being said, most hospitals have patients who are not mentally stable for one reason or another, and it's likely they are concerned about some of them obtaining a firearm.
In Florida:
Simple, "I do not allow firearms on my property, either disarm or get out!"
If they are not there on official business, this serves as a trespass warning, failure to abide may result felony charges, LEO or not.

Walkalong
April 30, 2011, 06:11 PM
The hospital I work at does not allow guns. It is what it is. None in town do. The retirement home my mom is in has no signs, so it's don't ask don't tell as far as I am concerned.

brboyer
April 30, 2011, 06:15 PM
Does their sign carry weight of law? If not, you have the option of ignoring it.



Except it's not a private residence. It's an open to the public business. They don't get to discriminate the way a homeowner (or renter) can. This is explicitly outlined in many respects, and I personally feel that it extends beyond the race/creed/color/sex/etc. that is specifially prohibited.

If the sign carries weight of law, then you are breaking the law if you choose to ignore it, and I cannot advocate that. But if it does not, then it is only an ethics issue, and I personally have no qualms about disregarding that sign unless the company explicitly accepts full responsibility for my own and my family's safety and accepts the corrosponding liability of limiting my ability to defend them.



And some have no signage at all, and it seems to have no rhyme or reason. Sky Ridge, a very large and relatively new facility, has no prohibition (at least not 5 months ago when my girl was there). But Swedish is a total disarmament zone with metal detectors in place and full time security guards.

It's still private property. They can throw you out for any reason (Except being a member of a protected class) if you do something they don't like, or maybe just because you have a red t-shirt on.

Signs mean nothing in Florida, so I just don't pay any attention to them. If I'm ever asked to leave (has never happened) I leave. Simple.

dirtykid
April 30, 2011, 07:44 PM
It's pretty well known here in MN that certain spots are a NO-NO for carrying, Hospitals and even their satelitte clinics,schools and ANY school-owned property OR school-sponsered event, I carry concealed so alot of time i dont even give it a second thought.
Oh, yea and until recently TGI-Fridays restaurants didnt make their policy clear (sign camo_flauged into decor) so they can kiss my money Goodbye !!

armoredman
April 30, 2011, 08:31 PM
AZ ust passed a law stating nobody tells on-duty LEOs to disarm, with very few exceptions, such as prisons. I can't imagine an ER staff member in this state trying to get a cop to disarm - that would just plain not happen.
I have never been in a hospital unarmed since I had my tonsils removed...

bigfatdave
April 30, 2011, 09:06 PM
They even refused to allow uniformed police officers inside in one of them (can't remember which) because they were armed. Why is that a problem?
If you don't let in people with guns, why would you let in people with guns?

grubbylabs
April 30, 2011, 09:21 PM
Aside from the signs on the buildings I think it is illegal in our state to carry in a hospital, I will have to check on that though.

Even though my kids day care has no sign and is not a school, I still disarm to go in.

For me its all about rights and the owner of the buisness and property have their rights as well as I have mine. If I felt like I needed to be armed while there then I would not leave my children there.

MachIVshooter
April 30, 2011, 09:30 PM
It's still private property. They can throw you out for any reason (Except being a member of a protected class) if you do something they don't like, or maybe just because you have a red t-shirt on.

Well, they'd be opening themselves up for lawsuits if they tried any arbitrary reason.

On the CCW issue, here in CO, "No guns" signs do not carry weight of law, so if they find out you're carrying, all they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, then they can press trespassing charges.

As for the varying degree of property rights, there's public property, public private property (any business that is open to the public), and private. Only fully private gives one the right to refuse access to any person for any (or no) reason without risking being sued.

brboyer
April 30, 2011, 11:26 PM
Well, they'd be opening themselves up for lawsuits if they tried any arbitrary reason.

[snip]

As for the varying degree of property rights, there's public property, public private property (any business that is open to the public), and private. Only fully private gives one the right to refuse access to any person for any (or no) reason without risking being sued.

Frivolous lawsuits, sure. Unless you can provide some citations for successful cases.

Don't like their style of dress: Get out; Don't like their hairstyle: Get out; Body odor: Get out; Gun: Get out; No reason: Get out; etc. All perfectly legal - as long as they are not violating any other statutory provisions, like a hospital refusing emergency service.

SharpsDressedMan
May 1, 2011, 12:25 AM
Most mental fascilities are "no gun" zones, even for police on duty. If they do not disarm (usually lock boxes at the restricted area entrances, etc, like jails), they do not enter. The only exception is emergency response to a hostage situation or person with a weapon inside, etc, where the police have been called to enter to deal with an armed threat.

bigfatdave
May 1, 2011, 09:11 AM
On the CCW issue, here in CO, "No guns" signs do not carry weight of law, so if they find out you're carrying, all they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, then they can press trespassing charges.Which has nothing to do with guns.

Most mental facilities are "no gun" zones, even for police on duty. If they do not disarm (usually lock boxes at the restricted area entrances, etc, like jails), they do not enter. The only exception is emergency response to a hostage situation or person with a weapon inside, etc, where the police have been called to enter to deal with an armed threat.

If a place provides armed security, effective screening, AND a place to stash my weapon, I won't complain. Otherwise, why would I patronize a victim disarmament zone?

But I will point out the hilarity of the situation you describe as an exception.
"ummmm, it turns out we suck at keeping weapons out, so let's call guys with guns to take care of that for us!"

Harley Quinn
May 1, 2011, 11:12 AM
Nursing homes are for those who are, unable to care for self or property...Sick/infirmed:( and you want them to have guns in there:confused:

Gun range in town, asks all, not to have a loaded weapon on premises, only those who work there are allowed...Has caused some problems with local law enforcement to the extent they are not allowed into the location to shoot:uhoh: If on duty and handling a police problem different situation...

fcs25
May 1, 2011, 12:16 PM
No law enforcement officer in the United States has to give up their weapon in order to enter any private business...period.Only in a court room where the judge has decided that no weapons are allowed except for his bailiff.

Mt Shooter
May 1, 2011, 12:54 PM
I may be wrong, but I either read/heard that by Montana law, if you carry legally. Who ever puts up a no weapons permitted sign, they must provide a lock box to stow your gun in while on there premise. Exempt are those places that by Federal/State law do not allow carry. This needs further study.

gym
May 1, 2011, 01:00 PM
The sign thing in fl for private business never held up, I saw many places including Winn Dixie, try it and they came down a few weeks=months later. My partner in the health club wnated to do it, I refused, so we had a standoff. I agreed to keep it in a drawer "or we were going to court" I also explained that half our clients were cops and emt's, he finally gave up. But people are stubborn and sometimes you may have to take them to court. just foud this while doing a search:
April 16, 2011
An open carry law opposed by law enforcement and backed heavily by the National Rifle Association passed the Senate Rules Committee Friday on an 8-4 vote, but some committee members said their support may evaporate on the floor.
The measure sponsored by Rep. Greg Evers allows people with concealed license permits to carry their guns in full view in stores but not at schools and other prohibited areas.
The bill now travels to the floor. The House version was approved by the House Judiciary Committee and awaits action on the floor.

Mt Shooter
May 1, 2011, 01:15 PM
My source is http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/montana.pdf.

”No Firearm” signs in Montana have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are ask to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.

And where by law carry is ban.

(1) A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon in a prohibited place if the person purposely or knowingly carries a concealed weapon in: (a) portions of a building used for state or local government offices and related areas in the building that have been restricted; (b) a bank, credit union, savings and loan institution, or similar institution during the institution's normal business hours. It is not an offense under this section to carry a concealed weapon while: (i) using an institution's drive-up window, automatic teller machine, or unstaffed night depository; or (ii) at or near a branch office of an institution in a mall, grocery store, or other place unless the person is inside the enclosure used for the institution's financial services or is using the institution's financial services. (c) a room in which alcoholic beverages are sold, dispensed, and consumed under a license issued under Title 16 for the sale of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.

Some of this was tried to change but failed in the last meeting of the house and senate, despite my emails to my local house member who seem more interested in serving her own thoughts than that of the people she was sent there to represent.

brboyer
May 1, 2011, 01:41 PM
No law enforcement officer in the United States has to give up their weapon in order to enter any private business...period.Only in a court room where the judge has decided that no weapons are allowed except for his bailiff.
You are mistaken, period.

bigfatdave
May 1, 2011, 02:30 PM
Nursing homes are for those who are, unable to care for self or property...Sick/infirm and you want them to have guns in thereWrong.
Some people in such a location may be unable to responsibly own/possess a firearm, but I doubt it is even half, then you have the staff and visitors.

That brush you're using seems a bit too broad and might be worn out to boot. You might insult a large number of people in assisted living facilities with comments like that.

Harley Quinn
May 1, 2011, 03:20 PM
That brush you're using seems a bit too broad and might be worn out to boot. You might insult a large number of people in assisted living facilities with comments like that.

True under that term of, assisted living, I'll grant you that :)

The OP is more concerned with his rights to carry while visiting...I have a special lock up location in my truck to hold pistol if I am going somewhere can not take it, inside... One way to handle it, I have chosen...

Regards

coloradokevin
May 1, 2011, 03:25 PM
On the CCW issue, here in CO, "No guns" signs do not carry weight of law, so if they find out you're carrying, all they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, then they can press trespassing charges.

That's correct. Colorado isn't as goofy as some of the other states that offer CCW permits!

Of course, the way some private establishments (hospitals) get around this issue in our state is by adding metal detectors and security screening at the entrance.

SharpsDressedMan
May 1, 2011, 03:56 PM
QUOTE: "No law enforcement officer in the United States has to give up their weapon in order to enter any private business...period.Only in a court room where the judge has decided that no weapons are allowed except for his bailiff." SOUNDS very authoritative, but sorry, it isn't the law everywhere. ALL cops, when not serving a warrant or investigating an incident where there is the possiblity of imminent harm to someone, can be asked to disarm or leave the property, at the discretion of the owner. If you think a cop can walk right into private property without permission, what would be the purpose of a search warrant? If the officer is asked to disarm, and doesn't want to, he has the option to get back in his car and go get a warrant. Consider that if he pushes a homeowner out of the way and walks in a home after being asked to disarm (this being a possible simple condition of permission to enter by the owner, otherwise it would be "trespassing" on the part of the officer) or leave, just about anything that he finds to arrest for will probably be inadmissible in court. We do not live in Nazi Germany, or back in the U.S.S.R., so certain rights to privacy and intrusion still remain protected under our Constitution.

bigfatdave
May 1, 2011, 04:08 PM
I have a special lock up location in my truck to hold pistol if I am going somewhere can not take it, insideThe burden of providing a lockbox is on the building owner, not the visitor.

the way some private establishments (hospitals) get around this issue in our state is by adding metal detectors and security screening at the entrance.Which is a LOT more effective than a silly sign, at least.

gym
May 1, 2011, 04:35 PM
The part about banks, if you make night deposits in NYC, that was the sole reason why I was granted a carry permit, different states have different rules

MachIVshooter
May 1, 2011, 05:01 PM
Which is a LOT more effective than a silly sign, at least.

And under CO law, it does become a weapons offense. Then again, it's not like you can get through with the gun to be an offender, either.

But they can't just bring in some rinky-dink detector at one of the doors or stand there with a wand, either. The law stipulates that the detectors must be permanently in place at all public access entrances.

robmkivseries70
May 1, 2011, 05:25 PM
A friend of mine , now deceased, worked in the lab at the Hospital in the town where I grew up. He told me a story about a police officer stopping a Dr. on the way to the Hospital for an emergency and giving him a ticket. The Dr tried to explain BTW. Some time later the police officer's son was taken to the same hospital for emergency care, to quote my friend," His son died." I said, " Do you mean the the doctors have their own $%!t lists? The answer," You bet they do!" Kinda scary really, and it may not be true in your area. But still (((shudder))):what:
Best,
Rob

dirtykid
May 1, 2011, 05:33 PM
Does anybody have a link or list of NATIONAL business's who do not allow weapons on grounds EVEN by permit-holding citizens ??? I just wrote TGI-Fridays a "complaint" letter on their website expressing my concern with their choice to dis-allow weapons even by permit-holders.
I want to make sure from here forth im not spending any of MY money in the WRONG establishments !
I understand it's their property and their decision,as it is mine to shop elsewhere.
(Kind-of ironic "Friday's" is based out of Texas? ) I thought Texas was a pro-gun state ?

CHEVELLE427
May 1, 2011, 05:44 PM
in FL it is one of a few on the list were we are not suppose to carry:(

guess they don't want someone that was just drooped off to get there hands on on gun, i saw how some are treated in them places and if i was locked in one i might be wanting g a gun myself. some even have ankle alarm on them so they cane even sneak out.:(


FYI a few months back a lot were emailing T-R-U (toys r us) as they are suppose to have a sign NO GUNS ALLOWED also

bigfatdave
May 1, 2011, 06:21 PM
guess they don't want someone that was just dropped off to get their hands on a gun

And that is the responsibility of anyone carrying a weapon in any place, it isn't even a gun issue, if you're wandering about with baseball equipment you shouldn't let incompetent people have the bats.

brboyer
May 2, 2011, 12:16 AM
in FL it is one of a few on the list were we are not suppose to carry:(
guess they don't want someone that was just drooped off to get there hands on on gun, i saw how some are treated in them places and if i was locked in one i might be wanting g a gun myself. some even have ankle alarm on them so they cane even sneak out.:(


FYI a few months back a lot were emailing T-R-U (toys r us) as they are suppose to have a sign NO GUNS ALLOWED also

Where?

CHEVELLE427
May 2, 2011, 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by CHEVELLE427 View Post
in FL it is one of a few on the list were we are not suppose to carry
guess they don't want someone that was just drooped off to get there hands on on gun, i saw how some are treated in them places and if i was locked in one i might be wanting g a gun myself. some even have ankle alarm on them so they cane even sneak out.


FYI a few months back a lot were emailing T-R-U (toys r us) as they are suppose to have a sign NO GUNS ALLOWED also
Where?

HERE ARE SOME OLD ONES STILL LOOKING FOR THE SITE THAT WAS HOT ON IT FIRST OF THE YEAR

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=543355

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/rkba-news-information/158598-toys-r-us-boycott-2.html
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?80532-Toys-R-Us-Boycott
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4231278#post4231278
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=999531

MikeNice
May 2, 2011, 03:44 AM
It is standard policy at most hospitals.
Many hospitals have a psychiatric treatment ward. Many more cater to people that have brain injuries or diseases that can cause them to lash out unexpectedly. It isn't about trying to disarm honest people. It really is about trying to prevent harm to patients and caregivers.

Can you imagine the out cry if a 6'5" former defensive lineman with a brain injury got his hands on a gun? I have seen something very similar happen during a psych patient transport. Luckily the cop had unloaded the gun and stored his mag before hand. The patient had a 2 pound hammer. It wasn't very effective against a tazer.

The chance of a mentally disturbed or diseased patient getting a weapon in a hospital is higher than most people understand. That is why they take those precautions. They allready have to worry about IV needles, scissors, and numerous other small easily concealed things. Eliminating unnecessary threats is pragmatic.

Demarko
May 2, 2011, 06:08 AM
The chance of a mentally disturbed or diseased patient getting a weapon in a hospital is higher than most people understand. That is why they take those precautions. They allready have to worry about IV needles, scissors, and numerous other small easily concealed things. Eliminating unnecessary threats is pragmatic.

Emphasis mine. Derogatory terms like "retard strength" apply, also, to disturbed patients. You do NOT want to get into a physical struggle over your firearm with someone who has, literally, nothing to lose because he doesn't know he can lose it. No fear + high adrenaline = very strong individual.

Shamus MacD
May 2, 2011, 09:48 AM
I live in Maine, and the hospital in Bangor has a gun check right at the front counter. Yet the one in my town doesn't have a sign anywhere stating I cannot bring a firearm in. So i'm not sure if it's state law or not

strm_trpr
May 3, 2011, 01:21 AM
As an LEO I have never had a problem with hospitals in CO. I have had to make arrests, transports and other official visits to them and have never been asked to disarm with one exception. The basement of Denver health is operated by the Sheriff's office and is a secure jail facility and they have lockers for LEO weapon storage. The only places I have ever been asked to disarm have been secure facilities such as jails and prisons.

coloradokevin
May 3, 2011, 05:43 AM
As an LEO I have never had a problem with hospitals in CO. I have had to make arrests, transports and other official visits to them and have never been asked to disarm with one exception. The basement of Denver health is operated by the Sheriff's office and is a secure jail facility and they have lockers for LEO weapon storage. The only places I have ever been asked to disarm have been secure facilities such as jails and prisons.

In fairness, I think half of the doctors pack at DG. If they don't, they ought to. In fact, when I attended an ATK wound ballistics workshop through my department last summer, three or four ER doctors from DHMC showed up. They were a lot of fun to hang out with at that seminar, and seemed really into the gun stuff.

Either way, aside from a few of the lost-in-space social workers at that hospital, I'm usually pretty happy to work with the folks at DHMC from a gun-toting officer perspective. I think the 'Denver Knife and Gun Club' is just a bit more accustomed to firearms: Armed security, armed sheriffs, and armed officers from every local department pass through there each day.

And, on a lighthearted side note, a nurse at DHMC even threatened to pistol whip me the other day, after I threw her a smart-ass comment. Lets face it, a truly liberal hospital worker certainly wouldn't threaten to use a gun to whip someone! ;)

Taurus 66
May 3, 2011, 08:36 AM
I went into my dads nursing home today to pay my monthly $4600. care bill at the Maquoketa Care Center 1202 German St., Maquokets, Iowa I came upon on a no gun sign at the front door.

REALLY?!!! Are legally armed citizens in nursing homes a big problem these days?

Maybe the sign should read "No Firearms and No Bruce Willis allowed in this facility because we saw all the Die Hard movies and know all too well what he is capable of."

Harley Quinn
May 3, 2011, 11:12 AM
57 posts later and OP person has not added, except OP:confused:
:)

rogertc1
May 3, 2011, 11:48 AM
What the heck am I supposed to post. Harley

I am still pissed off. The director was a butt hole. Jackson County has always been a Shall Issue county unlike some other counties in Iowa. Jan 1st made them all shall issue. The Sheriff can't pick and choose as long as the Federal / State background check passes and one takes a NRA class. I have carried for 40 years there and never had I seen signs. As a kid I rode my bicycle with a holstered .22 Ruger MK1 to the IKES Club to plink at the edge of town. I guess i am used to a free America.

I have guns...see my posts. GO ARMY!!!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7274563#post7274563

phil dirt
May 3, 2011, 01:08 PM
I just keep my handgun concealed and my mouth shut.

gopguy
May 3, 2011, 01:11 PM
hoplophobia is a disease...

Toforo
May 3, 2011, 01:15 PM
I went into my dads nursing home today to pay my monthly $4600. care bill at the Maquoketa Care Center 1202 German St., Maquokets, Iowa I came upon on a no gun sign at the front door. I talked to the manager who said it was the Nursing Association. She asked me if I was carrying. I was not. She said she doesn't want guns in there. I said I'd take my dad out (I PAY) she shrugged and said go ahead. So I will.

Jackson County in Iowa had been a shall issue since 1972 and has issued carry permits. Iowa recently went to a total all issue state as of Jan 1st. It is not up to the County Sheriff anymore.

Anyway I was upset, I have had a carry permit since 1972 and now it is not permitted to see my dad?
Maybe there's a difference between nursing homes, assisted care, and RETIREMENT homes (besides the obvious, lol)

My uncle is at the Masonic Lodge Retirement Home in Boone, IA and he has/keeps a few of his favorite "collectable" handguns in his room/unit/apt/suite. Now GRANTED - he IS in the "retirement center" portion of the home, but within the same walls and under the same roof of the 4city block facility, is a "nursing home" portion, "assisted care" portion" and on down to the 24hour per day care portion - including the final stage - the hospice portion of the home.


The staff knows his stuff is there (he has a small safe) - the maintenance guys come down and drool with envy over his collection.

Whenever I go visit, I always take my "latest and greatest" gun acquisitions to show him and the staff members that enjoy the hobby.

Since IA passed their ccw/reciprocity this past January, I have concealed carry within the retirement center and have seen no signs indicating differently.

But then again, as I said at the begining - I'm distinguishing the differences between, "nursing" "assisted care" and "retirement" homes...

Harley Quinn
May 3, 2011, 03:49 PM
That will do :) I really understand, I am angry about the trend in America myself...And I am :confused::uhoh::cuss:


What the heck am I supposed to post. Harley

I am still pissed off. The director was a butt hole. Jackson County has always been a Shall Issue county unlike some other counties in Iowa. Jan 1st made them all shall issue. The Sheriff can't pick and choose as long as the Federal / State background check passes and one takes a NRA class. I have carried for 40 years there and never had I seen signs. As a kid I rode my bicycle with a holstered .22 Ruger MK1 to the IKES Club to plink at the edge of town. I guess i am used to a free America.

I have guns...see my posts. GO ARMY!!!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...63#post7274563

hermannr
May 3, 2011, 06:57 PM
I am with the OP. If my dad was in a private nursing center and they acted like that, I would take my dad and my $$$$ elsewhere.

Guys, everything written on why you should not...all excuses, not a single reason. Reason? State law says you cannot carry into a restricted Jail area, or a restricted mental health area..OK, that is a reason, the law says so...all others are excuses.

I am amazed at how many on this forum have swollowed the anti's arguments why firearms should not be allowed here or there. Bull.

I/you/we are not better or worse than the next guy. If we can legally carry, it just means we obey the law for the most part (except for my wife, in 62 years she has never ever had a speeding or parking ticket, personally I have had a few of them).

Anyway, law abiding citizens, are just that law abiding citizens, they feel the law applies to them......the criminals and the crazies do not care what the law is...so when you restrict firearms you don't help anything because those that don't care about the law won't abide it any way.

Taurus 66
May 3, 2011, 07:15 PM
57 posts later and OP person has not added, except OP.

What the hell is "OP" as an acronym?? Are acronyms added to aid some in feeling a sense of superiority? The last time I checked the High Road is not limited in character usage.

Harley Quinn
May 3, 2011, 07:39 PM
OP is used at times, for original post...:confused::neener:

:)

Hk Dan
May 3, 2011, 08:14 PM
The good news is that in Iowa Hospitals and nursing homes are not prohibited places. They can post it and they can enforce it, but all they can do is ask you to leave. If you don't then you can be cited for trespassing, but there is no additional penalty for being armed.

razorback2003
May 3, 2011, 09:06 PM
I honestly wouldn't have worried about their sign. Most states a sign like that doesn't mean squat. I'd keep my gun concealed, not say anything, and keep on going. What folks don't know doesn't hurt them and isn't any of their business. I've never gone through metal detectors at a nursing home but have carried guns at nursing homes when visiting folks. The people there didn't know.

Taurus 66
May 3, 2011, 09:26 PM
OP is used at times, for original post...

There are too many acronyms flying about these days on the internet to know what could've been implied by the letters "OP".

Thank you for taking the time to reply like a the true gentleman that you are. :barf: :neener:

whalerman
May 3, 2011, 09:34 PM
There are no more emotional groups than teachers and nurses. Why, I'll leave to you to determine. No amount of logic will dislodge these groups from believing what they want to believe about what will make their environs safe. And I would also submit that it is not the rank and file that is putting out this pablum. It is the leadership of the nurses union and the teachers union that places these restrictions in workplaces, and makes them more dangerous as a result.

rogertc1
May 3, 2011, 10:28 PM
I realize now what I should have done is just take the sign down and not say anything. No one would have noticed. I just got too emotional. Still sucks.
Thanks all.

Roger

MikeNice
May 4, 2011, 09:34 AM
Guys, everything written on why you should not...all excuses, not a single reason. Reason? State law says you cannot carry into a restricted Jail area, or a restricted mental health area..OK, that is a reason, the law says so...all others are excuses.


Have you every worked with or dealt with alzheimers patients? They can become violent and dangerous instantly.

My grandmother had alzhiemers. She was 75 years old and about 105 pounds. She put my 5'9" 195 pound uncle in the emergency room. (He works as a carpenter and drywall man. He is in better physical shape than most 20 year olds.) She looked at him and started yelling the name of a boy friend that use to beat her. She went ballistic and by the time it was all over she had broke his knee and nose.

She had also had gotten his multi tool off of his belt. When my dad and me walked in she was saying, "**** these butterfly knives" and trying to get it open. She was planning on stabbing him to death.

It is not an excuse to keep guns out of places like retirement homes. It is a real danger to people in the building. They aren't worried about the criminals. They are worried about the patients.

If the OP objects to the policy I encourage him to take his money elsewhere. However, it is important that people know there are legitimate reasons for keeping guns out of certain places. Even the ones that seem bizarre can be reasonable for those with experience.

Matthew Courtney
May 4, 2011, 09:41 AM
Conducting an investigation does not justify trespassing unless a warrant has been issued.

Matthew Courtney
May 4, 2011, 09:43 AM
How does forcing visitors to leave guns in the parking lot make the guns more secure?

Harley Quinn
May 4, 2011, 10:12 AM
You are welcome, I thought I was kind considering your post about OP...;)

Thank you for taking the time to reply like a the true gentleman that you are.

rogertc1
May 4, 2011, 04:50 PM
Nursing Homes with alzhiemers patients have their own specal secure units. Still nothing to do with carry. Been there. Sorry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fhn42C6Fc0&feature=related

DAP90
May 4, 2011, 05:46 PM
On the CCW issue, here in CO, "No guns" signs do not carry weight of law, so if they find out you're carrying, all they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse, then they can press trespassing charges.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is true. Check out the link – page 4.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

I see this claim quite a bit. It's in this thread two or three times alone. It used to be true I think but they’re updated and clarified the rule. It has to do with the rights of the private property owner, tenant, etc. Just be aware.

This is a little off topic but there doesn't even seem to be any rules about the signs or placement of said signs. Seems like it could be easy to break that rule accidentally.

macadore
May 4, 2011, 06:47 PM
My mother in law woke up one night to her husband waving a loaded revolver at an empty living room screaming ďget outĒ. When she asked him why he was screaming, he said he was screaming at all those people in the living room. She couldn't convince him there was no one there. He finally decided the people were gone and went to bed. She locked his guns in the trunk of her car. The next day she called and asked me to come get them. A week later he was shooting invisible people with a can of spray deodorant. Everyone was glad we deprived him of his Second Amendment right.

They moved in with us a short time later and all the guns went in the safe. He frequently screamed at invisible people and demanded that I throw them out. He got furious when I told him there was no one there. Finally he made peace with the invisible people and decided they were his friends. People like this shouldn't be anywhere around any type of weapon.

Emerson said, ďA foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...Ē There are times when common sense overrides the law.

Charleo0192
May 4, 2011, 08:11 PM
Too bad you asked about the sign. Now they know that you know. In some instances, I have found an alternate entrance to a place that has one of those signs at the FRONT door, but failed to post them at other entrances. Not having a sign posted is a good excuse for not knowing about the restriction, and thus NOT being liable for knowing about it.
As long as the sign is not hidden, saying you didn't see the sign can be as useful as saying you didn't see the light turn red. I'm sure it's worked for some, but I'm sure there are plenty of others who weren't so lucky.

Taurus 66
May 4, 2011, 08:17 PM
You are welcome, I thought I was kind considering your post about OP

And just out of curiosity, what about my post about what you call "OP"?

CZguy
May 4, 2011, 11:53 PM
Have you every worked with or dealt with alzheimers patients? They can become violent and dangerous instantly.


True enough, but nowadays so can many sane people. I'm just comfortable concealed carrying. My thinking is that I would never pull a pistol while being attacked by someones Grandmother so it should be a non-issue there. But it might come in handy if someones son couldn't pay the bills and decided to kill himself and others. Heck if you read the paper around here, that scenario isn't far fetched at all.

Headless
May 4, 2011, 11:59 PM
In florida at least, it's not legal to carry a firearm in any medical facility where mentally ill patients are being treated. it might not be up to them...just something worth considering.

brboyer
May 5, 2011, 12:06 AM
In florida at least, it's not legal to carry a firearm in any medical facility where mentally ill patients are being treated. it might not be up to them...just something worth considering.
That is not an accurate interpretation of the actual law....

It starts off with "Except as authorized by law ..." guess what? The CWFL statute authorizes one to carry anywhere in the state with a few exceptions. Hospitals and Mental Health facilities are not among them.

MachIVshooter
May 5, 2011, 02:18 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think this is true. Check out the link – page 4

That link just takes you to the same statute that is outlined on that page, which I'll post in it's entirety:

18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.

(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.

(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.

(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:

(a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked;

(b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty;

(c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.

(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:

(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;


(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and

(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.

(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

(6) The provisions of this section apply to temporary emergency permits issued pursuant to section 18-12-209.

What part 5 means is that the state does not prohibit the posting of no guns signs. That language exists for clarification because of Colorado's preemption law (A local government cannot arbitrarily make places gun free zones). But the state also does not have a violation code or penalty for carrying against the wishes of a sign unless the sign is in the same place that meets the criteria for part 4.

DAP90
May 5, 2011, 04:05 PM
But the state also does not have a violation code or penalty for carrying against the wishes of a sign unless the sign is in the same place that meets the criteria for part 4.

Whereís NavyLT when you need him?

It would seem that handgunlaw.us disagrees with you; at least as far as I can tell. At the bottom of page 4 of that PDF document it clearly says that no firearms signs have the force of law. I canít find the penalty either and I donít know enough about the law to speculate but their interpretation is clear to me. Whatever the penalty if itís against the law Ė itís against the law; even if itís just a small fine.

I donít know how they arrived at that conclusion. Iíve tried to determine where they came up with it and the best I can do is section 5 where it says the carry permit does not override the rights of the property owner Ė and it may be specified elsewhere in Colorado law that the property owner has the right to ban firearms.

You can choose to ignore it but it is possible you would be breaking the law in this case; not just going against the property owners wishes as was the topic of that other thread.

Listen, Iím not judging. Iím not sure where I stand on the ethical debate going on in the other concealment thread but if forced to decide I would lean to the legal interpretations; not the arbitrary whims of the property owner.

If signs do carry the force of law my concern leans more towards the lack of specifications. Thereís a restaurant near me where the sign is mounted on a bench in an area where you wouldnít notice until you were leaving; and only if nobody was currently sitting on it as their torso would cover it completely.

DAP90
May 5, 2011, 04:13 PM
One more thing. I live in Colorado too so I would much prefer it if the signs did not carry force of law. I'm just trying to determine what the rules are. I have no desire to get burned because of a misinterpretation; even if it's just a petty fine.

I get caught speeding every once in a while just like everyone else. I can live with that. I'd rather not have any gun related incidents on my record no matter how minor.

MachIVshooter
May 6, 2011, 01:09 AM
It would seem that handgunlaw.us disagrees with you; at least as far as I can tell. At the bottom of page 4 of that PDF document it clearly says that no firearms signs have the force of law.

I caught it, not sure how they deduced that. That section is the entirety of Colorado's CCW limitations. There is no separate section governing private property signs specifically pertaining to firearms prohibitions, only that if a person is asked to leave for violating such a policy and doesn't, he is guilty of misdemeanor trespass. And that's what part 5 is about: Outlining that stores are not prohibited from having such a policy.

If signs do carry the force of law my concern leans more towards the lack of specifications. Thereís a restaurant near me where the sign is mounted on a bench in an area where you wouldnít notice until you were leaving; and only if nobody was currently sitting on it as their torso would cover it completely.

And so far as I know, states where "no guns" signs do carry weight of law have very specific regulations on where they must be posted, minimum size, minimum font, etc.

It really wouldn't be reasonable if a postage stamp sized sign at the top right corner of the back door could land you in hot water for violating it.

coloradokevin
May 6, 2011, 05:23 AM
Again, simply erecting a sign to prohibit CCW does not carry the force of law in Colorado. MachIVshooter already explained the issues that could arise on private property (ie: owner asks you to leave). Beyond that, your local McDonalds can add a "NO WEAPONS!" sign tomorrow, and it still doesn't make it illegal to have a gun on their property.

Harley Quinn
May 6, 2011, 09:13 AM
I am :confused: Not sure why you are angry over using OP:uhoh:

And just out of curiosity, what about my post about what you call "OP"?

Ed N.
May 6, 2011, 09:38 AM
In florida at least, it's not legal to carry a firearm in any medical facility where mentally ill patients are being treated. it might not be up to them...just something worth considering.

Such facilities are NOT in the list of prohibited places for CCW holders. Here's the Florida statute:

(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.


See? Not in the list. They can post signs, but the signs carry the same legal weight as a store's "No food or beverages" sign.

brboyer
May 6, 2011, 12:52 PM
Such facilities are NOT in the list of prohibited places for CCW holders. Here's the Florida statute:

[snip]

See? Not in the list. They can post signs, but the signs carry the same legal weight as a store's "No food or beverages" sign.

Ed, you have to be careful just relying on 790.06(12), there are several other statutes that regulate where a person may carry a firearm.

Here is the one that another poster was referring to:
394.458 Introduction or removal of certain articles unlawful; penalty.ó
(1)(a) Except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of each hospital providing mental health services under this part, it is unlawful to introduce into or upon the grounds of such hospital, or to take or attempt to take or send therefrom, any of the following articles, which are hereby declared to be contraband for the purposes of this section:
1. Any intoxicating beverage or beverage which causes or may cause an intoxicating effect;
2. Any controlled substance as defined in chapter 893; or
3. Any firearms or deadly weapon.
(b) It is unlawful to transmit to, or attempt to transmit to, or cause or attempt to cause to be transmitted to, or received by, any patient of any hospital providing mental health services under this part any article or thing declared by this section to be contraband, at any place which is outside of the grounds of such hospital, except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of such hospital.
(2) A person who violates any provision of this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

But as I pointed out previously, the important words are ..."Except as authorized by law" - in this case the CWFL is the 'authorized by law'.

Other statutes do not contain such language.....so be careful, know the law and how it applies in any particular situation.

Taurus 66
May 7, 2011, 12:04 AM
I am Not sure why you are angry over using OP

I am not angry, not in the least. I do not know what I typed may have had you thinking along those lines. All that was asked is this:

And just out of curiosity, what about my post about what you call "OP"?

Harley Quinn
May 14, 2011, 12:29 PM
Taurus 66
Good...
Still not sure about the issue...
:confused:

Regards

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