FYI: new proposed "safety" device


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LkWinnipesaukee
May 1, 2011, 04:57 PM
Based on what this guy has been saying he's confident this will be on every new gun sold.... Thoughts?

Now Firearm Tragedies Aren’t a Matter of “Bad Things Just Happen”

“Accidental Shooting” is now an Oxymoron

Port St. Lucie, Florida April 13, 2011 -- Improved Guns Inc., a not for profit company, is founded to promote the US Pat 7,036,258, which is aimed at eliminating accidental shooting. The passive device is a pin that must be broken before the gun can be shot. Any firearm can be adapted by drilling a small hole in which to insert the appropriate pin. These pins are made with incremental breaking thresholds having a range of 11.5-15.5 lbs. Improved Guns, Inc. can easily retrofit all guns at our cost, although donations are appreciated. Hopefully, new guns will soon include this device.

The inventor, Lanny Lee says, “The only thing that makes this invention seem like a safety is that curious little children can’t shoot themselves or their buddies when they find the gun.” Mr. Lee added, “What the world needs least is another gun lock; what it needs are safer guns, and this device has surpassed all expectations in field trials.”

“Despite owner’s demands, and overwhelming studies, Detroit refused to provide seat belts until the late 60’s, except as an expensive option. This continued to 1978 when the gov’t required them to be installed. One has only to look at the old 50’s cars to see how the industry spent vast amounts on useless things like padded dashboards. Only liability suits changed their attitude. Gun maker’s reception to this life saving device has ranged from contempt to cold indifference, while their attitude seems to convey they can stand in the rain and won’t get wet.”

"Manufacturers' specification sheets show trigger pressure is generally 4-5 lb. In contrast, A NYPD officer told me they raised their guns to 9 lb. trigger pull, and except for sniper rifles, military weapons are slightly over 12 lb. Buying a gun can be a life altering decision; that very gun might save your life, but then it might also end a loved one’s life.

There is a rapidly growing problem of accidental shootings due to the growing purchase of automatic firearms. New owners are unlikely to store their guns safely, leading to guns falling into the wrong hands. The passive pin device prevents accidental discharge; in a stressful situation, the inexperienced will discharge the gun out of control if the trigger has too light pressure."

Improved Guns' founder has handled and shot guns throughout his life. As a child, he witnessed an accidental shooting in his own home, the memory of which is what nightmares are made of. Carelessly passing a hunting gun between adults set the scene for the tragedy.

The Post Office cautions mailers not to send a complete gun; the barrel and slide must be removed! The USPO will accept frames only and mailed as parts only. See the website for complete details on shipping guns to be equipped with the device.

Contact:

Lanny R. Lee, president

Improved Guns, Inc.

772-807-4926
http://www.improvedguns.org/

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THE DARK KNIGHT
May 1, 2011, 05:03 PM
He does have a point. The only reason car makers ever started making safer, more fuel efficient, less pollutant cars is because the government mandated that they do so. Crash tests from the 50's and 60s are absolutely horrendous with even the smallest accident resulting in horrendous death. Car makers continued to make inefficient, non-aerodynamic cars with lackluster horsepower and 6-8 average MPG. Fun fact, many modern 4cyl engines produce greater horsepower/torque than classic V8 muscle cars with triple the engine displacement. Detroit kicked and screamed over the years and avoided virtually every innovation in their arrogance and learned a hard lesson as a result.

Honestly I'd be more interested to see more about the device and maybe it's a good alternative to a gun lock.

crm7290
May 1, 2011, 05:19 PM
With automobiles it was the owners calling for safety. With guns its the people who do not own them calling for more safety.

Maybe if the adults were practicing safe gun handling with that hunting rifle they wouldnt have had issues. Has anyone every been shot when everyone was safely handling the firearms? I don't think so (unless an accidental shot went up in the air and came down to hit someone but what are the odds of that)

The people who care about safety more than likely already have trigger locks and some form of safe. Sure you can get by a trigger lock, but no little kid will be doing that.

TexasRifleman
May 1, 2011, 06:01 PM
There is a rapidly growing problem of accidental shootings due to the growing purchase of automatic firearms.

Really? I thought the purchase of automatic weapons had pretty much fallen off since May of 1986.

In contrast, A NYPD officer told me they raised their guns to 9 lb. trigger pull, and except for sniper rifles, military weapons are slightly over 12 lb.

Uh, no they aren't. M4's ship with a 7-9 pound trigger pull.

Sounds like he doesn't know nearly as much about guns as he claims. Wonder if he sells shoulder things that go up?

M-Cameron
May 1, 2011, 06:01 PM
"Manufacturers' specification sheets show trigger pressure is generally 4-5 lb. In contrast, A NYPD officer told me they raised their guns to 9 lb. trigger pull, and except for sniper rifles, military weapons are slightly over 12 lb. Buying a gun can be a life altering decision; that very gun might save your life, but then it might also end a loved one’s life.

do we have any servicemen or veterans who can confirm this....?

i dont know if its the fact that im used to my ultralight match triggers......but 12 lbs seems excessively high.....almost to the point that it would impede the accuracy of the weapon.

scythefwd
May 1, 2011, 06:14 PM
my m16a2 was no where near that.

unspellable
May 1, 2011, 06:16 PM
Bird brain wants me to ship him my pistol frame via USPS marked as parts? No thanks, I don't need an all paid for vacation at one of those government resorts.

EddieNFL
May 1, 2011, 06:22 PM
Honestly I'd be more interested to see more about the device and maybe it's a good alternative to a gun lock.

I have enough clutter in the gun room.

M-Cameron
May 1, 2011, 06:23 PM
The modification raises the amount of trigger pressure from the factory amount of 4-5 lb. to slightly over 12 lb. and provides the owner the time to think, by increasing the amount of pull (more than the hand strength of a child) required to break the pin as is necessary to fire the first shot.

now i found this on their site.....and it kind of disturbs me......

now ive never been in a gun fight, and thankfully ive never needed to use one to defend my life.........but this quote from topgun comes to mind:
"You don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead. " -Maverick

TexasRifleman
May 1, 2011, 06:23 PM
Bird brain wants me to ship him my pistol frame via USPS marked as parts? No thanks, I don't need an all paid for vacation at one of those government resorts.

Wow you're right, I missed that part. Now we know he's completely insane and hasn't the slightest idea what he's talking about.

HorseSoldier
May 1, 2011, 06:24 PM
None of the M16s or M4s I've ever been issued had what I would consider a wonderful trigger, but all of them were probably right around the nine pound figure quoted by TexasRifleman, not the 12 pounds from the original article.

So this device basically basically fits your handgun with a pin that raises trigger pull to double action pistol levels for one shot, after which it breaks and your normal trigger pull comes into play? No part of that sounds like a winner to me -- I guess it might stop really small kids from being able to actuate a loaded weapon, but that's about it.

Jim Watson
May 1, 2011, 06:40 PM
Wonder where the pieces of the shear pin go after that first shot?
Might they bind up the trigger and keep you from getting off a second shot?

They are coy about the price of their service and make no mention of bulk quantities of shear pins if you should happen to want to practice with the gimmick. Although they mention that you can take the pin out if you are in a "tournament."

I notice that they spell "preformance" about as well as the typical facebooker.

firearmnut
May 1, 2011, 06:47 PM
I have to say no thanks.

M-Cameron
May 1, 2011, 06:56 PM
it is becoming blatantly apparent this guy has never shot a gun in his life........i wonder if he know the "safety bullet" guy.

"The fact is a heavy trigger pull improves not only gun safety, but the on target accuracy with the first shot of a rapid-fire sequence."

so heavy triggers........mean more accuracy.......?

man, better not let all those professional and Olympic shooters in on that little secret......

gc70
May 1, 2011, 06:57 PM
From TM-9-1005-319-23-P (http://www.scribd.com/doc/23333957/TM-9-1005-319-23-P-Rifle-5-56MM-M16A2-W-E-Carbine-5-56MM-M4-Carbine-5-56MM-M4A1), Rifle 5.56MM-M16A2 W/E, Carbine 5.56MM-M4, Carbine 5.56MM-M4A1

Trigger pull

Inspect trigger pull using trigger measuring fixture 7274758. Trigger pull must be minimum 5.5 pounds (2.49 kg), maximum for M16A2 and M4 is 9.5 pounds (4.31 kg) and maximum for M4A1 is 8.5 pounds (3.86 kg).

Zach S
May 1, 2011, 07:25 PM
Fun fact, many modern 4cyl engines produce greater horsepower/torque than classic V8 muscle cars with triple the engine displacement.
Not hardly. Some 6 cyls maybe, but you're still comparing to the published hp rating. A lot of those engines were under-rated to save on insurance premiums. Take the 375hp L78 for example, it actually made closer to 425.

Carelessly passing a hunting gun between adults set the scene for the tragedy.Maybe they shouldn't have been so careless with a hot rifle...

infuriatednoodle
May 1, 2011, 07:42 PM
it is becoming blatantly apparent this guy has never shot a gun in his life........i wonder if he know the "safety bullet" guy.

Oh God, not again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :uhoh:

Owen Sparks
May 1, 2011, 07:57 PM
Sounds like a trigger job in reverse, no thanks.

chevyman097
May 1, 2011, 08:09 PM
Is this a late April fools? Because this guy cant be serious....oh wait...

grilledcheese
May 1, 2011, 08:16 PM
From the inventor:

New owners are unlikely to store their guns safely

Thanks jackwagon. Nice way to throw every new gun owner under the bus.

I have the perfect name for Mr. Lee's device: "DEFECTIVE BY DESIGN".


Jeffrey

Vern Humphrey
May 1, 2011, 08:37 PM
Quote:
There is a rapidly growing problem of accidental shootings due to the growing purchase of automatic firearms.
Really? I thought the purchase of automatic weapons had pretty much fallen off since May of 1986.
True. And last time I checked the Center for Disease Control site, they showed a total of 762 accidental firearms deaths, nation-wide, for the most recent year -- and this in a nation of over 300 million people!! That works out to 0.3 deaths per hundred thousand.

By contrast, there 17,550 accidental deaths due to poisoning (5.85 per 100,000), 16,257 due to falls (5.14 per 100,000) and 5,517 due to suffocation (1.84 per 100,000).

And firearms accident rates are declining. So where is this "rapidly growing problem of accidental shootings" with any type of firearm?

Ole Coot
May 1, 2011, 08:54 PM
I don't buy new guns with extra locks. Ruger lost a sale on their new mini nine after I saw you had to use their key to field strip the darn thing. Next will be an alarm like when you don't put your seat belt on or have a loaded mag or cartridge in the chamber.

hirundo82
May 1, 2011, 09:21 PM
It doesn't get any safer than a gun in a proper holster and a fast-access safe for when it's not on your body.

Accidental shootings are at the lowest level on record, so I'm not a big fan of this guy criticizing gun owners in an attempt to drum up sales. I'm fine with people putting whatever safety devices they want on their own guns, but from what this guy is saying it seems like he wants to get this mandated by the government--that's something we don't need.

LkWinnipesaukee
May 1, 2011, 09:27 PM
He also has a Facebook. (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Improved-Guns-Inc/205162636173238)

M-Cameron
May 1, 2011, 09:39 PM
all from one of his wall posts......
There is a landslide of approval to the invention. Magazines are going to be pushing for this for new manufacture. It is passive and costs pennies.

well then, if these get mandated.....then it shouldnt be to much of a financial burden for you to cover the cost........can i expect a check?

i look forward to seeing a full page spread in the next issue of the brady campaign quarterly

You are able to read the future so well, perhaps you can give me a pick in
the NBA playoff.
very very professional.....


Thanks for pointing out the shipping issue. The local postmaster and
ATF working with me on getting clarification of Pub. 52 section 431.1.
Lanny

well weve finally found and answer to that nagging question "how many people does it take to interpret federal law?"..........apparently its two govt agencies and a fool.

orionengnr
May 1, 2011, 09:43 PM
DDT

orionengnr
May 1, 2011, 09:46 PM
The modification raises the amount of trigger pressure from the factory amount of 4-5 lb. to slightly over 12 lb. and provides the owner the time to think, by increasing the amount of pull (more than the hand strength of a child) required to break the pin as is necessary to fire the first shot.

Yes, when my life is milliseconds from being snuffed out, that is exactly what I need...time to think.
What will I think?
"Why did my first shot go 2 feet low? Why did the BGs shot just go into my chest?"
"Gee, I wish I hadn't installed a 12-pound "safety" pin in my dang trigger"?
"Gee, I'm glad I bought that insurance policy...the wife will be well taken care of."

This is a shining example of why 50% of small businesses fail within 24 months.
I hope he betters this timeframe by 18 months. Or better yet, 23.

gpr
May 1, 2011, 09:46 PM
my keltec p11 all ready has a 12 pound trigger....would i have to retro fit it.....gary

Liberty1776
May 1, 2011, 09:47 PM
So this is non-removable by the owner? And it was presented as a child-safety device, but when I check it out it's going to prevent me from making a quick and accurate first shot if I ever need to protect myself or a family member??? Not...interested.

Nushif
May 1, 2011, 09:49 PM
I might be missing this ... but what *is* it?

Hoth206
May 1, 2011, 09:51 PM
So let me get this straight...heavy first pull, lighter pull thereafter....

Hasn't this been done by every p38, CZ75, Ruger P-series, Walther PPK, and Sig for around 50 years now? If that's what you want...isn't that what you should buy?

Jeff82
May 1, 2011, 10:03 PM
This dude is a danger to the gun owning public.

Loosedhorse
May 1, 2011, 10:07 PM
He could make a fortune...as long as someone passes a law mandating this unnecessary device.

With safety as with accurate shooting: there is no device that takes the place of good training and good practice. Period.

Ironclad
May 1, 2011, 11:03 PM
What an ignorant idea. Oh well. If a gun came with it, pull the trigger once, clean it, and its like it never had it. So mandating it would only make guns safer for people who never practiced or function tested.

Shadow 7D
May 1, 2011, 11:07 PM
read his facebook, doesn't make him look very smart...

avs11054
May 1, 2011, 11:32 PM
Just sent the guy an e-mail letting him know of all his mis information. we'll see if i get a response

DFW1911
May 1, 2011, 11:34 PM
Did you notice the photo of a sampling of the "safety" pins?

Nothing like a little rust to add to the character of your firearms. Oh, and what would "just drilling" a hole do to the manufacturers' warranties...not to mention your firearm.

Tomcat47
May 1, 2011, 11:35 PM
He will probably make a fortune off the uneducated and uninformed irresponsible people.....

UNTIL!

A 8 Year Old Surpasses his Childproof Device and accidentally shoots someone!

THEN!

A Lawyer will sue him on behalf of the Victim or (relatives) take all his riches and put him in prison.

Wow!... looks like they come in Blue & Rust And Stainless Appearance!

HGM22
May 1, 2011, 11:37 PM
I've never heard someone pro-gun have to say "they are experienced" with firearms. This seems to be a common anti-gun tactic to put one at ease right before they try to make some antigun statement or put some ridiculous safety device you don't want in your gun.

At least its easily removed. I am curious though, where do all the pieces go?

leadcounsel
May 1, 2011, 11:42 PM
Follow the 4 rules and it's IMPOSSIBLE to have an ND. And this device would possibly hamper self defense ability.

Tomcat47
May 1, 2011, 11:42 PM
I Can Think of one Place to put all the pieces! :what:

Sorry....that was not typical high road behavior...:uhoh:....my bad!

NavyLCDR
May 1, 2011, 11:42 PM
I wonder if these guys even have an FFL? They are advising people to commit a felony by mailing, by USPO, the frame of a handgun to them labeled as parts only! THE FRAME IS THE GUN!

From the OP:

The Post Office cautions mailers not to send a complete gun; the barrel and slide must be removed! The USPO will accept frames only and mailed as parts only. See the website for complete details on shipping guns to be equipped with the device.

From their website:

Do not attempt to ship complete gun, the barrel and slide must be removed! The USPO will accept frames only and mailed as parts only, packed in their small flat rate box. Be sure to insure package. Improved Guns can perform this simple operation without the cost of having dealers do it.

357Shooter
May 1, 2011, 11:42 PM
This, is ... wow...

brboyer
May 1, 2011, 11:50 PM
Well, neither Lanny nor his corporation hold an FFL. So in addition to asking people to violate one Federal law, using USPS to mail a handgun, he is also asking them to violate another if they are outside Florida. Plus he is violating the law by practicing gun-smithing with out a license. And then he will commit another crime by sending the gun back. Plus if he is using a buddy, with an FFL, to receive the handgun, then we have a conspiracy charge.

So how many felonies are we talking about here?

DFW1911
May 1, 2011, 11:51 PM
When their device fails in a real-world situation, which I'm guessing it will, they will most likely be the liable party.

I'm not to sure how well this product and associated legal risks were thought out.

That, and I abhor fear-based selling.

PavePusher
May 1, 2011, 11:51 PM
Looks like they have no commentary enabled. Shade of the Brady's, indeed. hmmmmmm....

NavyLCDR
May 1, 2011, 11:52 PM
Just sent the guy an e-mail letting him know of all his mis information. we'll see if i get a response

Heck, I just sent the ATF an email!

kozak6
May 1, 2011, 11:58 PM
It can reasonably be argued that a defense gun should have a heavier trigger.

However, depending on a metal pin to break is not the answer. Metal pin bits rattling around in your gun is a bad thing.

It's also dangerously irresponsible to depend on such a device to childproof a gun.

brboyer
May 2, 2011, 12:09 AM
It can reasonably be argued that a defense gun should have a heavier trigger.

However, depending on a metal pin to break is not the answer. Metal pin bits rattling around in your gun is a bad thing.

It's also dangerously irresponsible to depend on such a device to childproof a gun.

I'm not sure about that "reasonably" part. :scrutiny:

Manco
May 2, 2011, 12:31 AM
This is ridiculous on so many levels, I don't even know where to begin. :rolleyes: How about at the most fundamental level, that children supposedly can't pull a 12 lb trigger? In fact, they can, using every finger they can fit in the trigger guard if they have to, or their thumbs with the muzzle pointed right at their own faces.

Shadow 7D
May 2, 2011, 03:56 AM
Hey manco, shh
logical thinking like that might lead one to conclude that this is a defective Idea...

After all, that's why gunsafes are around, and the state of California would never approve a gimmick like this, I believe that some trigger lock are excluded by them for similar reasons.

WOW, I'm all for inventions etc. but not one like that, guy could get someone killed. Hopefully the ATF shuts him down before something like that happens.

Nuclear
May 2, 2011, 12:39 PM
As I posted on another website about this idea: After working with devices that used shear pins, I know two things about them - they will shear when they are not supposed to, and will not shear when they are supposed to. What that means, is this thing may not shear off at all or partially shear, causing your gun to be completely inoperable when you need it, or it may shear off when some kid puts less than 12 pounds of force on it.

WNTFW
May 2, 2011, 02:02 PM
Ya know guys, Every time a new gun invention comes out there is always so much negativity. I think y'all are just "playa hatin".

In three seperate incidents already this year a young child that could not break that shear pin has managed to breach the outer security perimeter of my fortress of a home. 1 did drown in the moat after I figured the draw bridge would be more effective if I raised it, but I digress. All three were in the process of cracking my safe when backup arrived and were successfully stopped by overwhelming force. I fear the next time a pair might just haul off my safe.

While I hate to see tragic events happen, Kneejerk reactions are not generally the best solutions. This guy seems to be clearly motivated by profit more than anything. The gun world will always have fearmongers with a sales pitch. I do realize that the product is being sold to pevent accidental firing of the weapon. I don't see it being used by anyone that would actually use the weapon to practice with. Which actually brings up a whole nother set of dicussion topics. It is much like the draw bridge in that it is a pain to raise & lower. So it ends up being left down. The same people that won't properly secure fire arms will not replace that shear pin. Which I think should not be there in the first place.

seuadr
May 2, 2011, 02:07 PM
All three were in the process of cracking my safe when backup arrived and were successfully stopped by overwhelming force
was it the hostess delivery guy or an ice cream truck? :)

Vern Humphrey
May 2, 2011, 03:51 PM
What an ignorant idea. Oh well. If a gun came with it, pull the trigger once, clean it, and its like it never had it. So mandating it would only make guns safer for people who never practiced or function tested.
I take it the inventor's name is not Einstein?

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 2, 2011, 04:33 PM
I don't know if I'm the only one to remember this but here it is. I'll take responsible gun ownership over this POS idea.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0TdtycCxOI8/TD4jGKuS_rI/AAAAAAAAB-4/yyig2vq2e7A/s1600/Accidental+Discharge+Impossible.jpg

Shawn Dodson
May 2, 2011, 08:25 PM
I've seen gun safety gadgets come and go over the years. Every one of them promoted by the inventor or manufacturer as the final, simple answer to putting and end to accidental shootings. In almost every case the product is a huge financial failure because gun owners simply don't accept them and buy them.

Gun safety gadgets are a risky line of business that almost always end in financial ruin for those who invent and sell them.

WardenWolf
May 2, 2011, 09:16 PM
Fact is, this is a single-use product and is therefore useless for someone who shoots regularly. The only "use" for one of these would be in areas where firearm use is heavily restricted and police would want to know if the weapon had been fired. Essentially somewhere where ownership is practically criminal in the first place, and use is almost not allowed. Its only purpose, therefore, is to criminalize gun owners by making anyone with a broken safety pin a suspect.

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