Petition for Texas Open Carry


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jogar80
May 2, 2011, 05:04 PM
Everyone please help push for open carry in Texas. We need signatures! Go to this site
http://www.petitiononline.com/texasoc/petition.html

lets try and get this thing through!

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texas bulldog
May 2, 2011, 08:02 PM
I support the notion. However, I believe the window of opportunity in this session has passed. Also, I'm pretty sure this is quite old. Look at the copyright in the bottom right. The last year listed is 2007. I think that's about when I signed it.

If you really want open carry, as I do, writing your reps and TSRA will be far more effective than any online petition. If a rep will write a bill and get co-sponsors, maybe OC will stand a chance. Online petitions accomplish essentially nothing.

Flintknapper
May 3, 2011, 10:40 PM
texas bulldog wrote:


I support the notion.

^^^^^^^Same!


However, I believe the window of opportunity in this session has passed.

Correct. OC will NOT pass this session. The bill was submitted much too late to have any chance and IMO the bill is poorly written.

If you really want open carry, as I do, writing your reps and TSRA will be far more effective than any online petition.
Exactly. Join the TSRA and NRA if you are not already a member and make your voice heard. OC will not pass in Texas without their backing.


If a rep will write a bill and get co-sponsors, maybe OC will stand a chance.
Co-Sponsorship is a near necessity. The time to prepare for another OC bill is NOW. Next session...perhaps some inroads can be made (Texas has sessions every two years). For now....I am hoping to see Campus Carry and the Parking Lot Bills pass. We'll be lucky if that happens.

TexasBill
May 7, 2011, 12:56 PM
The next time our legislature meets is in January 2013. Unless something really strange happens, I would expect the Republicans to retain control, not that they have done us much good so far in this session. I am not sure why our elected officials are so out of touch with the sentiment of the voters. The parking lot bill should have been a slam-dunk and off to Perry's desk. I expected a fight on campus carry but not this long or dragged-out. It also should have passed.

Open Carry was brought up when the original concealed-carry legislation was introduced. It died a quick death because certain legislators believed it would scare the people. After all, at that time, it had been 124 years since Texans were allowed to legally carry handguns at all so maybe they were right (NOT!). So now we have one of the tougher permit systems in the nation (which is why all those folks got Florida and Utah permits).

Texas considers itself part of the American West, but it's one of only two states in the American West that doesn't allow open carry - most allow unlicensed open carry. And even Oklahoma may be close to passing an open carry law. I honestly think Texas might pass a no-permit-required concealed carry law before it would pass an open carry law.

The Texas State Rifle Association is going to have to change its tune on open carry; it hasn't been very supportive (not sure why; gun rights are gun rights). In addition, we need to start raising public awareness on our own terms, not the terms of those opposed to it. Texans should not have to ask the state for permission to defend ourselves; it goes against the grain of everything Texas has stood for. Bloodbaths have not happened in the many states that allow it.

One big problem is that we won't know for sure who is going to be in the next legislature until after the November 2012 elections. You can make some assumptions, but even there, we need to find out will actually support open carry, who will actually introduce legislation enabling open carry (not just who says they will: we've been down that path before).

The one thing that would really help is getting Rick Perry to change his mind about open carry. He will still be governor when the next legislature convenes and it would be a major help if we could get him in our corner.

But the place to start is the TSRA. Perhaps if we can get enough members calling for the association to push for open carry, they will do it.

GEM
May 8, 2011, 12:50 PM
The elected officials are in touch with business interests who oppose gun bills. The business world fears that carry will increase their liability and cost them money. They care nothing about your rights or personal safety. The health of their corporate entity is paramount.

That's why gun tough guy good ol' big hat boys like Red McCombs (for example) will have 30.06 signs on his dealerships.

USAA gets senators to offer special amendments to cover their facilities or oil and gas interests to the same.

The so-called GOP conservatives will play the RKBA game and bow to the monied interests. The TSRA magazine clearly points this out. Ms. Tripp is quite up front about this.

Campus carry is a touch more complex. The majority of schools have a substantial portion of antigun folks. The administrations besides being in some part antigun also have the liability fear and fear the crazed frat boy with a gun in the dorms. They also fear suicide priming by the presence of guns. The private schools play the private property card and businesses support that to strengthen their private property argument. Recall that they really don't care about abstract rights and will screw you on every other right. Then they become Holy Joes on property rights.

So, the legislature tries to play this game. The progun folks appeal to the masses but use chicanery to avoid passing the bills to placate their monied bosses. With the few antis in the legislature, it's easy. But you can claim that you supported the RKBA.

More political clout would help. The TSRA only has about 40K members out of all the gun owners in the state. The threat of voting against the GOP members is really not that strong. Who would you vote for? A democrat - antigunner?

You are stuck. Perry deliberately threw out out social conservative issues to the crowd like the sonogram bill (which he made a priority) to prove his righty creds. Note, as Tripp pointed out, he was asked to prioritize gun bills and didn't.

See the picture. Sonograms don't influence business but make some on the right happy. Played again.

The online petition will have no influence at this time, the game has moved quite beyond that. Noble effort perhaps but one has to understand the real dynamics. Unless you can beat the business lobby, you are not going to carry the day.

TexasBill
May 12, 2011, 07:33 PM
So true, so true. Sadly, the issue of open carry or permit-less carry probably doesn't appear on the radar screen of most Texans. And I certainly wouldn't want another incident like the Luby's massacre to be required for a catalyst.

Of course, our Senate just voted 25-6 to allow themselves to carry handguns just about anywhere instead of putting up with the limitations imposed on the unwashed masses. I am almost ashamed to say Dan Patrick, the Senator who represents my district was one of the weasels who supported allowing legislators and elected state officials to carry in bars, churches and sporting events. Patrick is the one I wrote before the session asking him to support open carry.

Just a few Senators objected to the special treatment, saying lawmakers should not give themselves privileges they are not willing to give the public at large. A novel concept, but one worthy of consideration.

texas bulldog
May 12, 2011, 08:40 PM
In addition to writing your reps, which you should definitely do, especially in the months leading up to a new session when bills are actually being written, you should also write TSRA. As pointed out above, they have not been very forthcoming on OC. If more members will voice their support for OC, then the leadership at TSRA will be forced to make it a priority. I did this right after my life membership was paid off. Hopefully it was taken seriously.

Of course, folks have to join TSRA first for such letters to have any effect. This would also help give them additional clout with individual legislators.

Mike1234567
September 15, 2011, 11:30 AM
Texas Is Getting Better All the Time (http://www.texasgopvote.com/2011-legislative-session/texas-house-committee-passes-open-carry-handgun-bill-good-idea-texas-002806)

Now... if we can J-U-S-T get past that little CHL thingy... or CL or whatever it becomes if/when "HB 2756" passes the House.

Kevin Rohrer
September 15, 2011, 01:43 PM
I am confused. Does Texas actually #prohibit# by statute the open carry of firearms?

I checked that petition. Although it doesn't state it, Ohio has never prohibited open carry. The state also added CCW ten years ago and is slowly expanding that law.

Mike1234567
September 15, 2011, 01:50 PM
Yes, open carry is illegal in TX unless/until "HB 2756" passes the House, which I don't think will be a problem. I don't want to open carry but it's nice to have that option should I so choose.

dogbaloo
September 15, 2011, 02:05 PM
No offense....but I DO NOT nor WILL I support open carry. I think it's a bad idea...not because of people on this forum and the good folks who actually take the responsibility of owning a firearm and training with it/them seriously...and I think people here are in that crowd.

I'm against it because of the "casual" gun folks, many of whom currently have CHL's and probably don't carry much as it's a hassel. If this bill passes, they will open carry, possibly, and it's much easier of course.

If I'm a bad guy, I'm sucker punching the first non-suspecting open carrying individual, be a woman, a small man or an elderly person and presto, I have a gun. Very few are trained and very few will get training on weapon retention. That's my number concern.

CHL is effective as a bad guy has no idea who is carrying. There's some deterant in that. Open carry makes you a target needlessly.

Not trying to hijack the thread, just trying make it clear that there are folks here who don't and won't support open carry.

Respectfully submitted....

Mike1234567
September 15, 2011, 02:15 PM
dogbaloo,

It's more a matter of continued restoration of RKBA in TX than it is anything else. Most of us, at least here on THR, wouldn't want to open carry. It's the freedom to do so that matters... not that it's a wise choice.

BRE346
September 15, 2011, 03:18 PM
I'll vote for open carrry, just to have that freedom. But I don't plan to open carry in the city. Not having to worry about concealment is a plus.

dogbaloo
September 15, 2011, 04:09 PM
Mike, that's a good point and one that I certainly won't argue.

doorman
September 15, 2011, 04:20 PM
I think Texas should have the choice to "open" or "conceal" carry. I would carry my larger handguns more fequently if I did not have to worry about printing. Which under the law, is like open carry now, a big no no.

bgr2014
September 15, 2011, 04:28 PM
I wouldn't mind the open carry, if you can still carry concealed. Theres times when I could do either and would like it that way. Texan also

The Sarge
September 15, 2011, 05:21 PM
Doorman...we have no laws against printing in Texas. I am a CHL Instructor and I can tell you with absolute.....on this board, when you see someone say "concealed is concealed," that means nothing more or less than if you keep your gun concealed (and your mouth shut), nobody will know about your gun—regardless of the circumstances in question. We do not have a law against printing in Texas. Literally. There is no law against printing. What we DO have is a law against INTENTIONAL failure to conceal. When you open carry, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon to show it off to friends, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon in self defense, that is a defense to prosecution for intentionally failing to conceal your weapon. When you're showing off to your friends, you don't have that defense to prosecution.

When you are "printing," there is no way in most cases that the observer can know what the object is that is printing under that shirt. It has to rise to the level of being readily discernible (like, able to read the logo on the slide through the fabric) as a firearm. So if you wore your full sized 5" 1911 underneath a skin-tight UnderArmor shirt, such that the casual observer could tell if it was a Springfield and not a Kimber, that would probably rise to the level of intentional failure to conceal.

However, if the wind blows your shirt up, momentarily exposing your firearm for anyone to see, and you immediately make attempts to cover it up, that is NOT intentional failure to conceal.

Believe me, most of us are not worried about printing. In fact, concerns about printing are commonly raised by n00bs who are brand new to carrying, and the most common advice they get is, "strap it on, cover it up, and forget about it." Most respondents will tell the concerned individual there is no way for a casual observer to know whether the object under the shirt is a pistol, an insulin pump, a cellphone, or a colostomy bag.

Dazen
September 15, 2011, 05:31 PM
there is 73,607 signatures on that.

TexasBill
September 15, 2011, 11:47 PM
The article cited by Mike123457 dates from last May, when the Legislature was in session, and the bill died when the Legislature adjourned. Rick Perry, when he's actually in Texas earning his pay, is opposed to open carry.

The next shot is, as I posted earlier, in 2013. If you're in favor of having the choice, now is a good time to start getting active. Me, I am looking for someone with the cojones to champion Constitutional Carry - no permit required. I have heard all about how everything must proceed in baby steps and have become convinced that baby steps don't work very well, either. Might as well take the tiger by the tail.

Open carry isn't about a legal requirement; it's about having a choice. Those who would rather carry something bigger than a Ruger LCP, especially on a hot summer day, might find it easier to belt on a good holster and open carry.

Retention is a straw man issue: having one's weapon snatched doesn't seem to have become much of a problem in states that already allow open carry. If it is something that really bothers you, there are plenty of very fine rigs on the market that will make snatching your sidearm a bit more difficult. For that matter, I have seen commissioned, uniformed law enforcement officers with Uncle Mike's nylon holsters on their duty belts. Guess retention hasn't played a big role in their equipment choices.

The first target objection is interesting. Unless I am dripping jewels or hundred-dollar bills, why would a bad guy want to pick on me, knowing that I am armed? If he picks on someone who is not visibly armed, the odds are in his favor; there just aren't that many CHLs and they don't all always carry. With me, there's a chance his plans could go awry he could wind up dead. He doesn't know if I am playing cowboy or if I have the skills of a Bill Jordan. It just seems to me your typical opportunistic thug is going to want prey that doesn't have teeth.

And now for the "Elephant of Surprise!" What surprise? "Surprise! I'm digging in my pocket?" "Surprise! I have a gun tucked in my waistband underneath my shirt?" or "Surprise! Ignore me as I reach for my ankle holster?" If you want a surprise, time how long it takes you from the time you telegraph that you're going for a weapon to the time you produce it, ready for action, from your favorite concealed carry mode. Then think of all the bad things that could happen to you in that time.

Open or concealed carry, you're at a disadvantage because the other side has to make the opening play. Jeff Cooper recognized this in his States of Awareness.

Your preference in carry modes is your business. But your preference may not be the preference of others. It wasn't too many years ago that Texans had no choice at all; we couldn't carry a handgun. It's time we finished the job of doing away with the old Jim Crow law and restored choice to the citizens of the Lone Star State.

Mike1234567
September 15, 2011, 11:59 PM
The article cited by Mike123457 dates from last May, when the Legislature was in session, and the bill died when the Legislature adjourned. Rick Perry, when he's actually in Texas earning his pay, is opposed to open carry.

The next shot is, as I posted earlier, in 2013. If you're in favor of having the choice, now is a good time to start getting active. Me, I am looking for someone with the cojones to champion Constitutional Carry - no permit required. I have heard all about how everything must proceed in baby steps and have become convinced that baby steps don't work very well, either. Might as well take the tiger by the tail.

Open carry isn't about a legal requirement; it's about having a choice. Those who would rather carry something bigger than a Ruger LCP, especially on a hot summer day, might find it easier to belt on a good holster and open carry.

Retention is a straw man issue: having one's weapon snatched doesn't seem to have become much of a problem in states that already allow open carry. If it is something that really bothers you, there are plenty of very fine rigs on the market that will make snatching your sidearm a bit more difficult. For that matter, I have seen commissioned, uniformed law enforcement officers with Uncle Mike's nylon holsters on their duty belts. Guess retention hasn't played a big role in their equipment choices.

The first target objection is interesting. Unless I am dripping jewels or hundred-dollar bills, why would a bad guy want to pick on me, knowing that I am armed? If he picks on someone who is not visibly armed, the odds are in his favor; there just aren't that many CHLs and they don't all always carry. With me, there's a chance his plans could go awry he could wind up dead. He doesn't know if I am playing cowboy or if I have the skills of a Bill Jordan. It just seems to me your typical opportunistic thug is going to want prey that doesn't have teeth.

And now for the "Elephant of Surprise!" What surprise? "Surprise! I'm digging in my pocket?" "Surprise! I have a gun tucked in my waistband underneath my shirt?" or "Surprise! Ignore me as I reach for my ankle holster?" If you want a surprise, time how long it takes you from the time you telegraph that you're going for a weapon to the time you produce it, ready for action, from your favorite concealed carry mode. Then think of all the bad things that could happen to you in that time.

Open or concealed carry, you're at a disadvantage because the other side has to make the opening play. Jeff Cooper recognized this in his States of Awareness.

Your preference in carry modes is your business. But your preference may not be the preference of others. It wasn't too many years ago that Texans had no choice at all; we couldn't carry a handgun. It's time we finished the job of doing away with the old Jim Crow law and restored choice to the citizens of the Lone Star State.
TexasBill: I'm confused. The article is labeled "By Bob Price at May 1, 2011 9:38 AM" and is posted under "2011 Legislative Session".

hso
September 16, 2011, 12:53 AM
Let me explain why we fought in our home state to remove the "concealed" part from the carry permit system.

Any casual and inadvertent or accidental exposure of your handgun would put you in violation of the Concealed Handgun Carry Permit. By having your jacket ride up over your sidearm without knowing it you were subject to possible prosecution since you weren't authorized to carry in any other manner than concealed AND you could have lost your permit and ability to get another.

This great flaw in concealed carry permit systems is the best reason that requiring the permit holder to keep the weapon concealed at all times is undoable 100% of the time and 100% of the conditions you can find yourself in and should not be required.

JohnKSa
September 16, 2011, 01:35 AM
Any casual and inadvertent or accidental exposure of your handgun would put you in violation of the Concealed Handgun Carry Permit. By having your jacket ride up over your sidearm without knowing it you were subject to possible prosecution since you weren't authorized to carry in any other manner than concealed AND you could have lost your permit and ability to get another.TX law is not worded that way. Unintentional exposure is not an offense.

"Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun."

By the way, the TX legislature will not meet again until 2013.

TYFOOON
September 16, 2011, 01:52 AM
Not having the right to open carry in Texas to me sounds like not having;

The right to surf in hawaii.

The right to hunt in Alaska.

The right to boat in Minnesota.

The right to crab fish in new england

The right to welfare in california

The right to drink and drive in Montana

The right to...

Ok, I got side tracked but seriously texas, vote the bums out that block it.

Mike1234567
September 16, 2011, 02:04 AM
^^^ LOL!!

shiftyer1
September 16, 2011, 02:37 AM
I seriously just can't get over the fact that you can LEGALLY buy someting in a store and then have to worry about who see's it and where you can have it.

If i'm a criminal i'm not to worried about how I carry anyway and no....criminals aren't concerned with additional time for a firearm. If they were thinking they wouldn't be commiting crimes.

I don't have a chl but if I feel I need a little extra protection i'll carry something. I don't need someones permission to protect my life or my families! And i'll be damned before I ask for it.

I know I should go get a chl but it just goes against the grain. I just can't see the reason in it.

Flintknapper
September 18, 2011, 05:12 AM
dogbaloo wrote:


No offense....but I DO NOT nor WILL I support open carry. I think it's a bad idea...not because of people on this forum and the good folks who actually take the responsibility of owning a firearm and training with it/them seriously...and I think people here are in that crowd.

I'm against it because of the "casual" gun folks, many of whom currently have CHL's and probably don't carry much as it's a hassel. If this bill passes, they will open carry, possibly, and it's much easier of course.

If I'm a bad guy, I'm sucker punching the first non-suspecting open carrying individual, be a woman, a small man or an elderly person and presto, I have a gun. Very few are trained and very few will get training on weapon retention. That's my number concern.

CHL is effective as a bad guy has no idea who is carrying. There's some deterant in that. Open carry makes you a target needlessly.

Not trying to hijack the thread, just trying make it clear that there are folks here who don't and won't support open carry.



Can you back up this ridiculous concern with any significant number of events where this has happened in the 30+ states that currently have open carry? :rolleyes:

Double Naught Spy
September 18, 2011, 08:58 AM
CHL is effective as a bad guy has no idea who is carrying. There's some deterant in that.

There are no data to support that concealed carry is a deterrent to crime in any form or fashion. People who have made the claims have done so without refence to context or an understanding of cause and effect. Contrary to misguided and pro-concealed carry belief, the criminals are not changing their behavior because less than 2% of the Texas population of CHLs. However, if giving criminals that much credit for thinking through the risks and rewards, then pro-concealed carry folks should also realize that the vast majority of folks with CHLs do not carry on a regular basis, are not apt to practice with their guns even if they do carry, and as such, the realistic risk posed to criminals out on he street from concealed carry is quite low.

Open carry might provide some deterrent to some crime, but it isn't likely to make any major changes in the overall crime rates either. It does not appear to have done so in open carry states.

hso
September 18, 2011, 12:21 PM
JohnKSa,

Thanks for the clarification.

Since the TX legislature won't meet again until 2013 there's not a lot of point to this thread any longer since the proposed plan of action can't be carried out.

TexasRifleman
September 18, 2011, 05:06 PM
TX law is not worded that way. Unintentional exposure is not an offense.

"Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun."

Keep in mind however that it's a jury who gets to decide if it was intentional or not.

If an LEO believes it was intentional he can arrest for it. If he's wrong and you prevail at trial good for you, but you were still arrested and had to defend yourself.

It's bad law in my opinion.

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