Do those post=9/11 "Freedom" stickers sicken you too?


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Drjones
December 27, 2002, 12:00 AM
Whenever I see a "Freedom" or "USA" or whatever sticker on the back of a car, I cringe. Unless there is an NRA sticker to balance it out!!! :D

Seriously, it drives me nuts thinking how many of those people are mindless antis who have no clue what the USA really stands for.

How many of them are gun grabbers? How many of them demand welfare and higher taxes for the rich? How many of them applaud the Patriot Act???

How many have read the Constitution, BOR and Federalist Papers?

Basically, it ticks me off thinking that people would display a sticker like that while holding beliefs that really are contrary to what this country stands for and was founded on.

This isn't to say that they don't have the right to be here, just that I feel they should leave, and they sure as heck shouldn't be displaying such Americana if they feel that way.

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nsf003
December 27, 2002, 12:08 AM
They say Freedom this, 9/11 that, but vote anti freedom.

Yeah, I know how you feel.

nsf

J.D.Locke
December 27, 2002, 12:22 AM
A NRA sticker?How about a GOA sticker?Thats more like it!!!
http://www.gunowners.org/goalogox.gif

Don Gwinn
December 27, 2002, 02:16 AM
Naw, they're welcome on the bandwagon. Irritates me when they sneer at the somewhat faded flag on my car.

Hey, stupid, it's faded because it's been there for four years! :rolleyes:

Mike Irwin
December 27, 2002, 02:46 AM
My NRA Life Member sticker is the only sticker anywhere on my car, except for those mandated by the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Hkmp5sd
December 27, 2002, 04:43 AM
I can honestly say I had an American Flag sticker on my vehicle before 9/11. In fact, several YEARS before 9/11. Also have a NRA sticker and a white #3 sticker, all placed in the window of the car the day I bought it.

stellarpod
December 27, 2002, 07:49 AM
Well, I like my I'll Fight for Freedom NRA sticker and am proud to display it.

But, it's starting to fade. I need to get a new one.

stellarpod

dog3
December 27, 2002, 09:12 AM
I'll apologise for this before I even say it.
That said;

Stellarpod

" I'll Fight for Freedom NRA sticker"

Fight with what, a LC Smith 20 g side
by side with #7 steel shot low brass? That's all the NRA is really interested
in letting you keep.

Nanook
December 27, 2002, 11:26 AM
In answer to the original post, I know of something far worse than bandwagon sheep with flag stickers:
liberals of my acquaintance actually shudder with disgust at the sight of ANY American flag. They make disparaging remarks about "Americans" flying our flag. Like it's something to be ashamed of.

I see your point about people displaying 'freedom' stickers while voting for Clinton/Gore, but I think the above creatures are worse.

For the record, I still have the NRA "Vote Freedom First" on the back window of my vehicle. It's still confusing liberals I know since the NRA is in very small print. They're not sure whether to applaud it or condemn it. Amusing.

2nd Amendment
December 27, 2002, 11:38 AM
I can honestly say that while I know a lot of those bandwagon sheep I don't personally know a single Lib like that. Met a few online but you meet all kinds of strange creatures online. Not certain how i'd react to one face to face. :mad:

Double Naught Spy
December 27, 2002, 11:44 AM
Bill Maher of "Politically Incorrect" tv fame was recently promoting a book (sorry, don't remember the title) but was making fun, in part, at all the folks who have gone out and bought little pastic sticker flags and put them on their cars. His point was that the flags really aren't doing anything to help with our war on terror or are problems in the middle east. He specifically noted seeing flags on big vehicles like a Lincoln Navigator, Suburban, etc. The irony was that the people took the time to get a little sticker to show they were supportive of America, but were driving a gas guzzler that did nothing to help curb the US's dependence on outside sources of much needed fossil fuels. In short, the sticker is a nice sentiment, but the actions of those folks by driving gas guzzlers was really that they were not willing to be supportive of America and give up their gas guzzlers and was actually working to make America worse off by helping to prevent the US from being self sustaining.

I certainly don't always agree with Maher on many issues, but here I did.

2nd Amendment
December 27, 2002, 12:07 PM
Driving a "gas guzzler" is unpatriotic but driving some little, short life span, maintenance intensive, usually foreign made or foreign subbed POS is All American? Sorry, I'll keep my Caddy, my guns and continue the fight and let the Lefties drive their eco-friendly road coffins.

RikWriter
December 27, 2002, 12:21 PM
Do those post=9/11 "Freedom" stickers sicken you too?

No.

80fl
December 27, 2002, 12:41 PM
Double Naught: You view large vehicles as un-patriotic? Let me ask you a few questions:

1: Do you heat your home?
2: Do you have a television?
3: Do you have a computer? (duh:D )
4: Do you buy any pre-packaged food?
5: Do you make your own clothes or buy them?
6: Do you drive an automobile?
7: Have you ever flown on an airplane?
8: Did you light any christmas decorations?
9: Have you ever used a battery?
10: Have you ever bought a coke in a can or bottle?

Please don't jump on the left wing band wagon with that tripe.

Instead of invoking that rhetoric, how about doing something to encourage the .gov to drill in Anwar?
How about shouting from the roof tops that .gov intervention is crippling innovation in this country; innovation that could lead to less dependence on foriegn oil?

Or, if you're really serious about the "big bad SUV's", how about following your heart and giving up electricity, your car, and most of your food?

Bainx
December 27, 2002, 01:21 PM
Sheeple commonly do things because it is the current "fad".
I.E. flying flags on vehicles.
I guaran-damn-tee you that none of them know the proper orientation of our flag when hung on a wall. Even with a 50-50 chance of guessing it right, they wouldn't know.

dd-b
December 27, 2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by PoiDog
In answer to the original post, I know of something far worse than bandwagon sheep with flag stickers:
liberals of my acquaintance actually shudder with disgust at the sight of ANY American flag. They make disparaging remarks about "Americans" flying our flag. Like it's something to be ashamed of.


Partly it's a legacy of the Vietnam era, when the flag became a symbol of the reactionary right. It seemed pretty darned obvious that Vietnam was not a vital strategic interest of the United States, and that the governments we were supporting there were just as bad as the communists. All the flag-waving "patriotic" rhetoric conditioned a lot of us to despise the symbols and the rhetoric.

Partly it's because the people most prone to waving the flag generally disagree with me politically. After awhile one develops a twitch -- "flag-waver" means "not my kind".

I have frequently been ashamed of the actions of my government.

The feelings I try to have about the flag are best summed up by this:

"I'm a patriot. I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent, racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing, promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and Stripes." - Patrick Nielsen Hayden, on rec.arts.sf.fandom

dd-b
December 27, 2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Bainx
Sheeple commonly do things because it is the current "fad".
I.E. flying flags on vehicles.
I guaran-damn-tee you that none of them know the proper orientation of our flag when hung on a wall. Even with a 50-50 chance of guessing it right, they wouldn't know.

Or the outside of a building, for that matter. I've seen a lot of them hung wrong.

Back when I was in highschool, Vietnam era, when the flag was becoming a symbol of the reactionary right, I wanted to get a bunch of "flag code" pamphlets from the VFW, and go around their parking lot "ticketing" cars with incorrect flag displays (sticking a pamphlet under the wiper, circling the sections violated).

dd-b
December 27, 2002, 01:46 PM
The way we throw gasoline, and lots of other things, around isn't exactly unpatriotic. It's more like "suicidal".

We can't do it for very long.

And while we do do it, it's making the air worse and worse to breathe in most major cities. Even parts of Minneapolis, which isn't surrounded by mountains or anything, and isn't all that big.

The crash at the end will be really unpleasant.

I would have thought preserving this planet as a place capable of supporting human life would be a basic conservative issue, but apparently not. Judging by the rhetoric of conservative politicians, they don't care for anything beyond the next quarter-end statements.

Guy B. Meredith
December 27, 2002, 02:13 PM
I agree with the point that many of the sticker carriers are just lemmings who have given no thought to the significance other than the Jones have one. Just one of the many clues that I am dealing with the lemming mentality that makes me feel about as comfortable as putting my hand into a diarrhea filled comode to remove a clog.

Hkmp5sd,

Uh, what is a #3 sticker?

2nd Amendment,

I may agree with you on many matters, but after owning a couple of those "some little, short life span, maintenance intensive" cars this is one area I don't agree. Thought I'd never get a reason to get rid of my Mazda GLC and justify the cost of a new car--sold it still running at 250,000 miles after two carb rebuilds and a water pump, running the original clutch (I am heavy footed).

SodaPop
December 27, 2002, 02:14 PM
Has anyone seen the stickers that say "Terrorist Hunting Pemit 91101"

wingnutx
December 27, 2002, 02:18 PM
I guaran-damn-tee you that none of them know the proper orientation of our flag when hung on a wall.

I recently witnessed a bunch of sailors/soldiers hang one the wrong way. Luckily there was a boyscout nearby to correct them.

wingnutx
December 27, 2002, 02:24 PM
Instead of invoking that rhetoric, how about doing something to encourage the .gov to drill in Anwar?

Better yet, encourage them to build more and better nuclear reactors. Nukes can both heat your home and make hydrogen to run your car.

Those new BMW hydrogen-internal-combustion cars are pretty sweet.

JPM70535
December 27, 2002, 02:26 PM
While it is distasteful to watch some liberal gun grabbing Klintonite flying the flag and raving on about his love of America and freedoms, I have to say I support his right to do so.

Just my 2 cents worth

The 2nd Ammendment makes all the others possible

rlpinca
December 27, 2002, 02:29 PM
Guy, the number 3 sticker is for Dale Earnheart.


It does sicken me a little bit. The flag has lost meaning and has turned into just another fad. The people with the flags still don't care about the country. It's just something people do because the neighbor did it. I won't put a flag on my vehicle, the veteran plate says enough.

80fl
December 27, 2002, 02:46 PM
Wingnut: I agree wholeheartedly:)

eap
December 27, 2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by 2nd Amendment
Driving a "gas guzzler" is unpatriotic but driving some little, short life span, maintenance intensive, usually foreign made or foreign subbed POS is All American? Sorry, I'll keep my Caddy, my guns and continue the fight and let the Lefties drive their eco-friendly road coffins.

you've got it backwards, us auto makers have been getting their arse kicked for years with their pos vehicles that require multiple visits to the shop or dealer for recalls, and their value drops like a rock.

Mike Irwin
December 27, 2002, 05:40 PM
"I guaran-damn-tee you that none of them know the proper orientation of our flag when hung on a wall."

After 9-11 I had a number of people in my community come to me to ask me the correct way to display an American flag.

When hung flat against a building, the field should be pointing left as you view it. If someone is speaking in front of it, it would hang over the speakers right shoulder.

dd-b
December 27, 2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Mike Irwin
"I guaran-damn-tee you that none of them know the proper orientation of our flag when hung on a wall."

After 9-11 I had a number of people in my community come to me to ask me the correct way to display an American flag.

When hung flat against a building, the field should be pointing left as you view it. If someone is speaking in front of it, it would hang over the speakers right shoulder.

The rule I know is that the blue/white field of stars should be in the upper left. If that's what you mean by "the field", then we agree. (I do think the "upper" is important, though!)

I'm at least slightly sympathetic to people who get it wrong in windows -- if it's visible from both sides, it's wrong on one of them unavoidably, and even if it's visible only from one side, if they're doing it from the inside they have to put it up "backwards" to them for it to show right from outside. But they should go back and fix it as soon as they see it from the outside.

Marshall
December 27, 2002, 06:33 PM
I'll drive my Gas Guzzlin Big Block Chevy Suburban 4X4 as much as I wish, thank you. I'll also drive my Ford F150 5.4 liter and blow around in my 225 HP Bass Boat, ride my motorcycles and four wheelers as much as my heart desires. All the while, being as much an American and doing as much as you so called conservatives (closet Liberals) to promote and defend our rights to do so!

The people that talk about supporting our rights in this country then scoff at those of us driving American Made vehicles of our choice, are more than likely the same people that supported Gore because of his felt need to do away with the internal combustion engine. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I love my guns! :D


Marshall

Peetmoss
December 27, 2002, 07:06 PM
The only thing that bothers me about those little flags everyone has been putting on there cars is there pretty much all made in CHINA or some other crap hole place.

As far as the gas guzzlers go they only bother me when they have a save the planet sticker, Green Peace, or other similar bumper sticker.

Peetmoss
December 27, 2002, 07:18 PM
I hate to burst your bubble but there is a decent chance that your Suburban and or your F150 was assembled in Canada or Mexico.

F=ma
December 27, 2002, 07:27 PM
I drive an 16 mpg Chevy 4x4 about 10 miles each day.
My ultralib sister drives a 30 mpg Honda about 60 miles each day.
Who contributes more to the "death and destruction" of the planet?
I do, of course! :rolleyes:

Sentiment (stickers, "greenness", whatever) is one thing, practice is another.

King
December 27, 2002, 07:45 PM
Well, I guess I'll take the other fork in the road and just suggest that more flags and more flag stickers on vehicles is a sign of a return(ing) to patriotism in this country (or at least a significant improvement).

I will seek not to know what's in their heart relative to pro-gun or anti-gun. Personally, I think more people are converting to our side because they no longer feel safe and they now realize that our nations enemies have now stepped onto our soil and hurt us. What happened on 9/11 should be a wake up call and I think that's what we're seeing.

I'm hoping it's not a fad. I love to see our flag and it's symbol, even if it's a sticker on a fancy car.

I think also that more fence sitters are leaning our way. Some of those may be the people some of you are picking on.

Personally, I'm not much for putting stickers on cars but to each his own.

2nd Amendment
December 27, 2002, 08:21 PM
eap, umm, I'm not sure how to put this gently so allow me to be blunt: You're wrong.

I've been in the auto business off and on for a couple decades and owned my own lots for the last seven years. Hands down the vehicles with the best resale value and least maintenance problems are, in order, GMC/Chevy, Ford and then Dodge trucks and SUV's. I sell these things with 350k on them and more and still get good money with few complaints.

Imports? Great, so long as they are less than five years old and under 150k. After that they invented the Incredible Shrinking Interior(then sold the idea to Berretta/Corsica and Mustang) where everything dries out and separates from everything else. Mitsubishi has to have a patent on the Smoking V-6 from hell, also. Yeah, you can get those incredible mileage tales out of them, but it will cost you more and you won't look as good doing it after year four. I base these statements on real life experience with several hundred cars a year of my own and thousands thru auction. This argument has popped up here before and I really ain't interested. If you spend more money on them than I do then talk, otherwise consider yourself lucky you got a couple good rice-grinders in a row and that you apparently live in one of the metro areas where imports perform stronger than domestics in the resale market.

If you trade every few years, buy an import. If you drive 'em till they drop buy an American made truck. Period.

Whatever, they all look silly with one of those stickers on 'em and some Sally Soccermom "driving'.

Drizzt
December 27, 2002, 11:07 PM
Those stickers can be a bit deceptive, but when the fellow in front of you has an American flag on the left-hand side of the back window, and a sticker that says "Al-Queda and the U.N. - America's greatest enemies", you have a little better idea of where they stand.... ;)

Preacherman
December 27, 2002, 11:12 PM
I think this thread is getting rather too political for the General Discussion forum. Moving to Legal & Political.

Marshall
December 27, 2002, 11:42 PM
Peatmoss,

You're not bursting my bubble at all, I am very well away of that. However, the sales and service support a North American Company, in Chevy or Ford, regardless where they are assembled. My point was about the so called gas guzzlers anyway. Thank you though.


Marshall :)

stellarpod
December 28, 2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by dog3
I'll apologise for this before I even say it.
That said;

Stellarpod

" I'll Fight for Freedom NRA sticker"

Fight with what, a LC Smith 20 g side
by side with #7 steel shot low brass? That's all the NRA is really interested
in letting you keep.

Well, I guess you've just really nailed me. I have no ability to think for myself, I'm a mouth-breathing, Toyota driving sheeple that'll believe anything that nasty ol' NRA runs down my gullet.

Give it a rest, bud. I'm not a hunter. Haven't hunted in years, but am fairly proficient with a wide variety of firearms. I was proud to display the colors long before 9/11 and I happen to believe that the "I'll Fight for Freedom" sticker pretty well sums up my Constitutional stance. Believe what you want about the NRA's agenda. I'm not trying to convince you, but frankly, don't expect me to give half a hoot about your theories either. I've heard it all before...

Double Naught Spy
December 28, 2002, 12:21 AM
Wow, talk about running with the ball in a variety of directions.

First of all, I was referencing Maher's comments concerning the use of those little flags. This was not my particular sentiment, although I do appreciate the irony. Also, I personally have nothing against you folks who drive big gas guzzlers no matter where they were assembled. Part of what I see as being a significant part of being an American is that you are free to do whatever you want within the boundaries of the law and your pocketbook.

That being said, don't get too patriotic about buying Chevy, Ford or Chryseler. 50 years ago, that dog would hunt, but not today. While the companies are largely American, many of their products are not. To have an American name, the product need not have more that 30% American parts according to my mechanic, hence how you can end up with a Mitsubishi engine in one of the old Chevy Luv pickups. Basically, globalization of the business community makes it impractical for companies to be competitive without heavy reliance on foreign parts OR being heavy subsidies by our own government. Heck, there are some foreign titled cars made here in the US that are likely more American than some of their American-named counterparts.

Suffice it to say that very few if anyone these days who lives and operates in America does so in a 100% American fashion. Hell, our own military even buys a lot of foreign products. Yes, there is a Beretta America, but Beretta is an Italian company. All those computers being used are not full of American chips, bus lines, connectors, etc. Sure, there are American parts, but a lot of foreign parts as well.

Maher's point was simple and apparently I didn't convey it very well. Putting a little sticker on your car is a nice sentiment, but really doesn't do squat to help anything but keep the sticker company in business, especially when you learn some of the manufacturers of such items are in Mexico, Korea, and the Philipines, at least based on the ones I looked at in the local Target store.

Knock yourself out doing what makes you feel good. It is America, after all. But please don't fool yourself in believing that because you have purchased a large $ item such as a car from an American-based company that you are somehow more American for doing that. Those American companies are not nearly as American as you give them credit for being.

Marshall
December 28, 2002, 03:08 AM
Double Naught Spy,

I understand what you are saying. However, you can't have it both ways in this discussion. When speaking of Chevy's, Fords, etc. being assembled elsewhere, using forign parts and that makes their purchase not as American as we think, you can't then turn around and say Beretta USA doesn't count because Beretta is an Italian company! Which is it?

Out of curiosity, what would you have us buy?


Thank you,
Marshall :)

Mike Irwin
December 28, 2002, 03:33 AM
DD-B,

If the flag visible and will be viewed from both sides, say during a parade or an event, I believe that the field (yes, the stars) should be pointing either North or East, whichever is more fitting for the situation.

In other situations, the contextual aspect needs to be taken into account.

If the flag is displayed in a window, it's safe to say that the primary purpose is for those OUTSIDE to see it, so you would orient it so that when viewed from outside the building it would display correctly.

Drjones
December 28, 2002, 06:31 AM
No offense guys, but could we try to keep this OT?

Where certain cars are made isn't really firearms-related, and it sure isn't related to this post!

Thanks for the replies so far...Nice to know I'm not alone...

2nd Amendment
December 28, 2002, 11:29 AM
Ummm, Double Naught, you got Mitsu engines in Luv trucks because Luvs were bought directly from Mitsu(actually I thought they were Datsuns, but whatever) and Chevy stuck a name sticker on them. They were completely designed and built over seas. Just FYI. :)

cuchulainn
December 28, 2002, 12:05 PM
For the fussball-frau set, it wasn't really about patriotism. The flags went up as part of a community support system to help the nation deal with its mourning. To them, the flags said "we're all together" as much "I love America." It was a visual hug.

Looking at it that way makes the seeming incongruity less inexplicable.

Not that my explanation will lessen your nausea.

DevilMayCry
December 28, 2002, 12:53 PM
I have to agree that most of the sheeple dont know what the flag means or is about, I personally fly the flag with only 13 stars and stripes, (like the one during the revoulutionary war) to show what are country really needs to remember that we fought against this kind of goverment 250 years ago. I actually had someone ask me where the rest of the stars were. I didnt know what to say I was so shocked. But the flag I fly says Support freedom first, NRA on my work car.

dd-b
December 28, 2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Mike Irwin
DD-B,

If the flag visible and will be viewed from both sides, say during a parade or an event, I believe that the field (yes, the stars) should be pointing either North or East, whichever is more fitting for the situation.


Ah! It makes sense there'd be a rule for that situation, but I didn't previously know that bit, thanks!

Lennyjoe
December 28, 2002, 01:44 PM
First heated topic I've seen here so far.

The flag you fly is the one I serve today.

Let us never forget those who have gone before us to defend that flag.

No one cares about the military until times like this. How unfortunate.

Sleep well America, cause those who care are standing guard at night away from those we love so you can sleep in the same house and continent that they reside.

God Bless the U.S.A.

Mike Irwin
December 28, 2002, 05:55 PM
Dr. Jones,

I think a discussion of the proper way to display a flag is on topic here... Can't tell you how many improperly displayed flag decals I've seen on Soccermommobiles...

labgrade
December 28, 2002, 07:17 PM
Just a quick flash-check on this thread, but Lennyjoe, rest assured that there's many out there that appreciate what you do - every day & night.

I posted in TFL that after the patriot act was signed, I calmly folded my flag, saluted it & gentlty put it away - for now.

I can't be what would be called "patriotic" any longer. They wouldn't understand, & frankly, neither do I.

I've got the T-shirt, proudly served my country & still, all the while, kinda wondered, "Huh?" Things weren't quite right.

They weren't then & they aren't now - maybe never really were & might never be.

Sad thing, this might be the best it'll ever get unless we knuckle down to make it what so many of us always believed it to be in the first place. That we were a bit too "polyanna" isn't our fault. The Documents say what they say & somebody else stole it while we weren't watching.

Well, high time we started watching again & grab a big ol' hunk of what a coupla dead ol' white guys said something about .....

I won't fly the flag, I won't say the pledge - coupla other things I won't do - for now.

I will honor those who keep up the good fight though ....

Lennyjoes & ilk - hat's off, Sirs & M'ams - in uniform & out, thank you.

That is America.

Soap
December 28, 2002, 10:11 PM
I don't care what people put on their automobiles. But if you're flying a Che graphic expect me to rear end you...;)

MountainPeak
December 28, 2002, 10:40 PM
I'm happy to see more patriotic stickers. I'm sad when I see the sniping by gun owners about NRA vs. GOA vs. JPFO etc.. Join them all, I did.

labgrade
December 28, 2002, 10:58 PM
MtnPeak,

Can't argue, but I could point out a couple - my own perspective though.

Patriotic stickers, I'd betcha aren't.

More "nationalism" or the prior-stated "group hug." Isn't there some form of meaning behind these to actually be patriotic?

C'mon. If somebody just slaps a sticker on their car, ,doesn't mean they have any cklue as to the "what fors" & "how comes" of being "patriotic" in the least.

Anything "feel good & herd-like" is merely that.

I wouldn't feel too fuzzy about anything "patriotic" just 'cause you see some stickers.

I sure don't.

& I don't see gun owners sniping. Fact is, there's such a huge gap betwixt gun owners as to be unrecognizable.

The gap between The Clays Guys versus The Black Rifle Folk might as well be Brady versus Heston (as if).


Point of fact. The NRA is seen by many as a purely political entity to serve themselves & do nothing much in the way of preserving our rights - GOA as much less-so.

A validity there.

Sniping will take place due to a perceived variance between what is seen to be happening versus what needs to be.

& I believe a reality.

Just that it happens between "you & me," both gun owners doesn't make it any less true.

MountainPeak
December 29, 2002, 01:02 AM
labgrade, I can assure you I don't feel "fuzzy" about anything. I just happen to prefer more patriotic images than less. I have no idea the depth of understanding of what patriotism means by anyone displaying a flag. The "sniping" I mentioned is simply something that happens to annoy me. People that support "hunting rights" and not "the right to bear arms" drive me nuts. I am not one of those gun owners that says "why would anyone need THAT kind of firearm?" My point is simply expending energy fighting each other doesn't help hunting or 2nd Amendment rights. The NRA needs a harder edge, in my opinion, in fighting for the cause I believe in. They do however help elect many politicians that support my beliefs. The JPFO and GOA actually put off some of the people I know. These people are wrong and I constantly am trying to explain to them why! Any group that helps support my beliefs gets my support. Any group that I'm a member of gets my prodding to suck it up and do MORE. I just think it is defeating the over all effort to "snipe" at friends. I spend my time attacking the anti-gun groups. We both know there are plenty of them out there.

labgrade
December 29, 2002, 02:50 AM
Perhaps The Crux, MtnPeak & why I'll never "fly the flag" again. Matter of perspectives.


"They [the NRA] do however help elect many politicians that support my beliefs."

Do they?

From what you indicate in your posts, I'd argue the point - to a point. They do assist in the election of some polticos who support the 2nd, while at the same time advocating the election of a bunch who don't - those who are merely politically astute enough to be tabled as "pro gun."

Even still, NRA assisted/ sponsored Project Exile. Bastards! What great poltical savy they garnered by touting enforcing current (unconstitutional) laws to stave off further encroachments - while ..... helping to further the Brady checks.

uh-hunh.

Yeah, give me a whole bunch more of these kinds politicos & I'll sell you down the river. Will take a bit longer - but you'll like it.

Tell ya what. If we ever win back any of our freedoms, the NRA-folk are out of a job. What's their incentive there?

Their politico-rating system is as bunk as their "cold, dead hands" message.

Reason a bunch of folk are put off by the GOA/JPFO message is that they tell the truth - usually a pretty hard sell these days.

No slam, sir, far from it, but I'll not ever give in to the lesser of the evils. The NRA is that - a slip-shod/stop-gap (if that sop to those who'd want to believe what they say they stand for). I've had it with 'em.

Yup. The NRA "helps" more than they hurt, except for their appeasment mentality to "buy time" - which sucks anyway. Never worked, never will. They eat your money, tell you lies, whilst making a good living.

I'd called 'em whores, except the former give you better measure for your money. Likely, you'd have a better time without being lied to.

Other than that ..... I'd agree.

Reason I "snipe" at friends is to knock some sense in. Most don't get it & I'd like to have you over for a face-to-face.

We've just a couple basic tenents regards our country & your liberties; our bill of rights is inviolate & they're written that way for a reason.

I think they're a bit of a wussy-speak. No matter, I wasn't around & they'll do for now.

In the meantime, they're being used as toilet paper, not worth the rag they're printed on.


... an hour later, after being distracted by a phone call, I've lost my thought train .....

Oh well.

stellarpod
December 29, 2002, 05:43 AM
Funny, when you hear the Brady bunch spewing vermin from their mouths it's always the NRA they're aiming at - not GOA/JPFO.

When the Ted Kennedys of the world are calling for more gun control it's the NRA they aim at - not GOA/JPFO.

When the Barbara Streisands of Hollywood continue to poison the minds of the populace it's the NRA they pound on - not GOA/JPFO.

Call me stupid, but it's fairly apparent to me that it's the NRA that's crawling under the anti's skin. The other guys don't even seem to be on the radar screen. That doesn't mean the other's are not worth supporting. But, to try to relegate the NRA's role in maintaining the fight for 2nd Amendment rights to insignificance is just plain nonsense.

I don't lock-step with any single oganization, including the NRA. There is room for improvement. But, jeez folks! If you're going to bash at every opportunity then at least be honest enough to give praise where it's due.

Labgrade: You write, "They do assist in the election of some polticos who support the 2nd, while at the same time advocating the election of a bunch who don't - those who are merely politically astute enough to be tabled as pro gun.

Anyone who listened to the NRA's messages during the last campaign heard them specifically admonishing the "newly-enlightened" liberal politicians, who, as wolves in sheeps clothing did not merit support just because they discovered that, to most people sounding pro-gun equated to BEING pro-gun. The NRA has graded politicians based upon voting history, not idle soundbite chatter.

Perfect? No, but I don't see ANY other organization doing as much for our cause. Obviously, some of you disagree.

stellarpod
(still proudly flying the colors wherever I can)

King
December 29, 2002, 09:52 AM
Still fly mine too.......

rick458
December 29, 2002, 10:03 AM
Exscuse me for being Clueless but what is the Patriot Act?

labgrade
December 29, 2002, 09:10 PM
This could go down the tubes toot sweet. ;) Likely to get nasty.

stellarpod,

I cannot count the times the NRA's message has changed a bit to reflect their "newly-enlightened" political/strategic themes.

I've an original American Rifleman magazine herabouts that touts favorably the ideas of the '68 Gun Control Act. Sickening. I've seen much the same in their ratings of politicos time & time again.

They are as astutely political as are their competition. Both "sides" are out for "votes," which equates to political power, money & brute force through the perceived "we can molbilize more" threat.

NRA helped write the GCA '68, they sold out machine gunners in '86 & helped draft the Brady Act .... more.

I've sat in our Colorado Guv's Executive Chamber whilst discussing freedom issues with this Guv'ner - a private meeting. He's The New Best Fave All Time Republican. Wins hands down!

He spouts the political garbage as rote. So does the NRA.

When a dog pisses on a fire hydrant, he isn't commiting vandalism, he's just being a dog.

Get used to it. Learn it & know where these dogs are coming from.

They do it because it is their nature. I'd not subscribe anything evil (necessarily), but they do it nonetheless.

That they do it at all, is contrary to our interests.

NRA may have made some "pro-freedom-type" conjectures somewhere, but as an elected delegate to CO's 4th Congressional, 49th local (state-level congressional) & State-level caucus for everything else, I'd say I've some inkling to what's been said hereabouts. Besides having my ear to the ground somewhat .....

NRA was totally absent here. & ya know why? 'cause they figured they didn't need it. No monetary expendature, nada.

Yup, we pulled the straight Repub ticket in CO = whoop!
:(

Likely, as huge compromise CCW bill will be issued & vastly Repub-supported for: added training, added restriction reagrds carry locations, added restriction as to everything else where & when. On it goes.

This is the implicit buy-in by our "pro-gunnys."

Within the month, I'll be out tactically tagging mailboxes of those who supported these "pro-gun" yahoos, because this type are the ones that will sell us down the river.

Nothing so sordid, sir, as being personal, but you have much to learn.

labgrade
December 29, 2002, 09:19 PM
Goto here (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query) , rick458, for Patriot Act-stuff-wise.

Likely, it's a compilation of what eventually did become law. These are "just" bill-stuff-things listed.

A bit better detailed search could provide you with what eventually did become law.

It ain't purty.

"Homeland Security" could also provide some enlightening & entertaining evenings' worth of home-schooling. Enough to make you either throw up, or jump on the band wagon & wave the flag - depending upon your mindset regards freedom versus security.

BTW, I still fly my flag. Is just isn't some piece of cloth strung up on the deck. It's held close to my heart - ever closer each day.

It is flying proud & true. Most just can't see it any longer.

Never doubt that.

ACP
December 29, 2002, 09:28 PM
The stickers don't bother me so much. And I don't attribute them to "liberals" or "gun grabbers" or people who don't like the flag (that doesn't make sense, does it?) What bothers me is that national voting turnout continues to be at all-time lows even after Sept. 11. If someone wants to impress me they can slap an "I voted today" sticker on their windshield. That shows me they know what America is about, and what terrorists are trying to take from us.

stellarpod
December 30, 2002, 12:16 AM
Labgrade:

WHOA! You've got some major rage going on don't you? Who are you pissed at? The NRA? Your governor? The state legislature? EVERYONE? Can you name ONE person or organization that has done right by you 100% of the time? If you can, I envy you. Do I believe the NRA or any other organization represents MY beliefs 100% of the time? Hell NO! But, I'm not prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water.

How dibilitating it must feel to live in "God's country" and have this nastiness going on around you. While all the "natives" in Colorado were pissing and moaning about us Texans and Okie tourists the Californians snuck in and stole your state! Their politics of course were not far behind.

I honestly do admire your attempt to set things right in your state. My hat's off to you for trying to make a difference. As I stated before, I don't embrace everything the NRA says, nor employ every strategy they promote. But, for better or worse they ARE flying the banner for this cause - at least in the eyes of the unenlightened masses. And, by the way, THEY are the ones we're trying to reach, right?

Perhaps your lofty perch allows you a perspective of the seemy side of the NRA that us mere mortals aren't privy to. I for one will continue to support those aspects of those organizations that I find to be palatable and will spit out the rest. I determined years ago that I'd never become a life member because I wasn't sure that the NRA would be an organization with which I wanted to be associated 20 or 30 years down the road.

As one who grew up spending a good deal of my summers in Colorado it saddens me to see that good state being overrun by left-leaning politicos. My father was raised in the 4-corners area, I have a sister in Colorado Springs and my mother-in-law owned a restaraunt in Gunnison for several years. I spend all too little time fly-fishing on the Conejos River every year. I hope your able to turn the political tide for everyone's sake - with or without the NRA's help. But alas, you may have started too late...

stellarpod

Erik
December 30, 2002, 12:03 PM
"Do those post=9/11 "Freedom" stickers sicken you too?"

Nope. In fact, I kinda like the idea that Amercans are beginning to again appreciate that which makes our nation so great.

Now, does that mean that I expect everyone to swing around and begin to think the way I'd like them to right away? Nope.

One step at a time.

Kevlarman
December 30, 2002, 05:34 PM
http://www.post-literate.com/gerpunx/archives/bandwagon_patriot.jpg

I think that says it all for most of the sheeple out there.

I was watching Mail Call last night, and at he end, R. Lee Ermy mentioned something about flag etiquitte. Always keep the Union facing its own right people!

labgrade
December 30, 2002, 08:53 PM
stellarpod,

Rage? nope. My Mom once said you (me) sound bitter. Nope, I'm not & actually much more care free about this whole than may seem from my posts. Vocal inflection would lend a huge amount of credence to that. I type much nastier than I talk.

Back to Mom's observation though .... told I'm not. I am outraged.

That so much of what we had has been stolen, that we must fight tooth 'n nail to get back even a nodding acquanitance.

Far as anybody being there 100% of the time? You betcha. Several. I attempt to surround myself with such & have not much to do with those who aren't. I fail in my own reciprocation at times, but strive for that. What else is there?

& I'll argue the point that the NRA's flying any banner but their own. Makes no difference that they be the biggest 400 pound monkey on the block. If they're not our monkey - it's open season.

Molon Labe right? We gonna accept 1/2 measures or do we want our rights back?

jmbg29
January 3, 2003, 03:56 AM
Do those post=9/11 "Freedom" stickers sicken you too? Nope.

Has anyone seen the stickers that say "Terrorist Hunting Pemit 91101"Mine's good 'til 2050! :D :cool:

Members of my family have served in the defense this country since the late 1800's; when we first began to arrive. Some died, most were injured in the course of duty in one sense or another. Any expression of love for this country (even those whose depth is measured in nano-meters) is welcome.

I suppose that having personal investment in our freedom gives me that perspective.

Bainx
January 11, 2003, 10:43 PM
jmbg29--case closed.

DeltaElite
January 11, 2003, 10:54 PM
Don't bother me at all.
Judgemental people who think their version of patriotism is better than someone elses, now they bother me. ;)

rick458
January 11, 2003, 11:01 PM
I think we shall ALL see our Patriotism tested very soon, we have upset many people through acts of our government ,that were wholly out of our control, or even knowledge. Hell is gonna come knocking on our doorstep, and it is doubtful a good .45 will get us clear of trouble.
I do so hope I am wrong:uhoh:

JohnBT
January 12, 2003, 04:24 PM
Last summer my 75-y-o neighbor was taking her flag in for the night. The college professor who lives across the way walked out in the middle of the street and yelled, "That's right, take it down, keep it down."

I'd like to see more flags and stickers and less of some of my neighbors.

John

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