Medical Professions and Guns - I'm Curious


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1894
May 4, 2011, 04:44 AM
Ok so there is a huge representation of LEO / military / etc on this forum. No Brainer. (Thanks for what you do guys)

Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems like there is also a disproportionate representation of medical professionals as well. Medics, EMTs, Nurses, etc. However, it also seems that there are relatively few physicians.

Without a database to query I can't be sure. But, being a (presently bored) data geek, I gotta ask the question. Am I nuts? Or, if I'm right, is it b/c many of you have military experience? Maybe it's an external ballistics question?

Just thought I'd ask. Your thoughts???

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General Geoff
May 4, 2011, 04:55 AM
Physicians (MDs) are much rarer than EMTs and nurses, as such it only makes sense that there are far fewer of them in any given demographic, including on a gun forum.


Then again, it's also possible that there are more MDs than you think, and they simply don't advertise it.

1894
May 4, 2011, 05:15 AM
General,

Your observation is valid, so much so that I'm ashamed I did not include that bit in my OP. I guess I should have phrased my question more clearly. What I'd like to know is:
1 - Is there a disproportionate number of medical professionals that are interested in firearms?
2 - If there is, what might the reasoning be for such a disparity?
3 - Is there some sort of draw for them towards the idea, or is the draw from firearms towards the medical profession?

An answer of: "1894, you're nuts," is acceptable. I'm just thinking out loud here.

mnrivrat
May 4, 2011, 05:43 AM
AMA ,as well as most medical education professionals are not the most gun friendly folks.

The literature and education provided to medical professionals is typically anti firearm in nature. They still use the old worn out and disproved statistical statements of decades ago.

jr_roosa
May 4, 2011, 05:47 AM
There's a mix, like in any profession.

Some docs are very anti-gun, some can't get enough, and some are in between.

Most docs have a decent income, so if they are into guns, they can get REALLY into them. Docs by definition like big-boy-toys, and have the purchasing power to really run with it.

I shoot competitively, recreationally, and I also have done some tactical medicine stuff too. I would say about 1/4 of my colleagues where I work are actively into some sort of shooting sports, another 1/4 have guns but don't really do much with them, 1/4 will come to the range for fun once in a while but don't have much interest in owning a gun, and 1/4 don't like guns at all. That breakdown probably varies with geography (rural > urban, red state > blue state), specialty (surgeons > pediatricians), and gender.

One thing that I find interesting is when I see posts here with people who are upset when their doctors ask about weapons in the home and they think the doc is anti-gun. I'm pretty pro-gun, but it is the standard of care to ask about unsecured weapons in the home for parents of pediatric patients and anybody who might be at risk for homicide/suicide. It's the same thing as asking about smoking if you are worried about lung or heart disease.

If your pediatrician doesn't care about safe storage of firearms in the home, then he isn't really doing his job, and I would wonder what other important things he doesn't care about.

I don't want to take anybody's guns away, but if somebody is having a rough time with depression, is having thoughts about hurting themselves, and they have access to firearms, then that really makes a big difference in my assessment of how safe they are at home. Usually a reasonable solution is to have them arrange for a family member or close friend to hold on to the guns until things get turned around. I've had friends do that during rough times.

-J.

Oh, hey, look, there's one now. ^^^

docnyt
May 4, 2011, 05:51 AM
Maybe because medical professionals are often exposed to the darker side of human nature and the violence that ensues. Hence it is only natural that we try to protect ourselves against violent persons and guns are currently one of the more convenient force equalizers available.

You'd be surprised how many physicians are progun, especially in the South.

Big_E
May 4, 2011, 06:03 AM
A few of my parents' doctors and my old dentist seemed to be into hunting. I remember when I was younger sitting in the dentist office reading Field & Stream.

I know that there is a group http://www.dsgl.org/ so some doctors try to get into the political realm.

If a doctor told me I shouldn't have guns, I'd call him a quack and find someone else. It really isn't their business, unless I was very suicidal, still that would be my/my family's decision.

jr_roosa
May 4, 2011, 06:08 AM
Maybe because medical professionals are often exposed to the darker side of human nature and the violence that ensues.

Yep.

You take care of some kids who were screwing around with guns when they shouldn't have and it changes your view.

On a lighter note...around 1/3 of the GSWs I've seen in the ED are accidentally self-inflicted (almost all did well). Glocks are most common--take what you will from that. Also unholstered CCW takes quite a toll when the gun slides down and the trigger stays in place. I should probably ask my patients if they have any holsters in the home.

If a doctor told me I shouldn't have guns, I'd call him a quack and find someone else.

I don't think that's what doctors do in general, but some docs might.

The usual conversation:

Doc: Any guns in the house?
Parent: Yep.
Doc: You keep them locked up or out of reach of your child?
Parent: Of course.
Doc: Cool. Remember as he gets older he'll get better at finding stuff and climbing. Keep that in mind when you think about how you store them. You keep medications and chemicals out of reach too?
Parent: Yep.
...and so forth.

-J.

loneviking
May 4, 2011, 06:47 AM
On a lighter note...around 1/3 of the GSWs I've seen in the ED are accidentally self-inflicted (almost all did well). Glocks are most common--take what you will from that. Also unholstered CCW takes quite a toll when the gun slides down and the trigger stays in place. I should probably ask my patients if they have any holsters in the home

Oh boy...now you did it. Now there's going to be umpteen million Glock owners telling you how full of it you are.

Maybe because medical professionals are often exposed to the darker side of human nature and the violence that ensues. Hence it is only natural that we try to protect ourselves against violent persons and guns are currently one of the more convenient force equalizers available.


Well, that's true for the pro-gun crowd. The anti's look at what comes in and figures the world would be better off without guns.

Why so many medical professionals? My guess is that we are wired very much like cops and soldiers. Lots of stress, lots of adrenaline, have to keep cool when the SHTF.....so we are drawn to action sports like competitive shooting or the adrenaline sports like base jumping. Plus, many of us work 3/12 hours shifts a week so we have an extra day to play with the toys.

unknownrash
May 4, 2011, 08:24 AM
I'm a podiatrist and I can't get enough guns. My wife is a ER physician and she sees the carnage all the time that idiots with guns can do. She doesn't like talking about it. Funny thing is when she was in medical school in Chicago back when, she was all about getting a firearm to protect herself and took shooting classes. It would surprise you how many docs have guns or are into guns. I think most docs will not admit to you as a patient that they are into guns or shooting because it may make them feel like it taints them as a medical professional or they are afraid to be viewed as some violence skewed quack.


I know a few docs who carry all the time. I usually pack a 1911 or a M&P under my lab coat when I'm in my office. Definitely harder to pack a gun when in surgery, but never felt the need for it then, LOL. My patients are none the wiser. My staff know I carry but they are very cool with it. I could probably carry into my hospital too and not be detected , but I follow the rules and don't.

As a little experiment, I put out my copy of American Rifleman in the patient rooms to see if it would get picked up/read. I have to chuckle every time I walk into the room and there is somebody reading about firearms. That mag gets more action than most.

Loosedhorse
May 4, 2011, 08:59 AM
there are relatively few physicians
It's always possible that some just don't decide to announce themselves as physicians, or surgeons.

I have met several pro-gun physicians and surgeons. My "unscientific poll" says that women MDs and pediatricians are least likely to like guns, while ER physicians and surgeons are most likely.

There is a vocal minority of ER docs and trauma surgeons that takes the air of "I have seen what guns can do--they must be banned!" I think more are of the mind: "I have seen what happens to people when they are defenseless."

Glocks are most common
That's not surprising. Not because they are unsafe--they are not--but because they're so well known (likely to be bought by someone who knows little about guns) and so common in general.

Dejavu
May 4, 2011, 09:01 AM
This is one, ex-Marine, physician who is very into weapons of all variety, even after doing a bunch of anesthesia for gunshots, with bad guys usually involved. I met a man once who was in ER with a bullet wound 12 hours after being released from jail. No doubt a slow learner.

Several of the people I work with are weapons owners.

AlexanderA
May 4, 2011, 09:51 AM
Most docs have a decent income, so if they are into guns, they can get REALLY into them. Docs by definition like big-boy-toys, and have the purchasing power to really run with it.

I once sold an M1917A1 watercooled MG to a doctor in Richmond, Va. He then proceeded to have it stolen out of the trunk of his car. (It was eventually recovered, though. The police and the ATF don't rest easy until they track these things down. They never did recover the spare barrel.)

WC145
May 4, 2011, 10:18 AM
I'm a LEO and a respiratory therapist. I work with with plenty of doctors that are into guns. Of course, I work in a very rural area which might have something to do with it.

svtruth
May 4, 2011, 10:24 AM
American Association of Pediatrics (or what ever it is called) I believe has an antigun statement in its mission statement.

Ole Coot
May 4, 2011, 10:30 AM
All my personal Doctors and my dentist are avid hunters and shooters. My dentist is an AR fanatic and my primary care physician is an avid hunter. I guess all that I know are gun owners and hunters, maybe it is this part of the country where outdoor activities and firearms are common.

WillDe83
May 4, 2011, 10:35 AM
My dad and brother are doctors and very pro gun. Im doing undergrad pre med tract right now, hopefully ill be another pro gun doctor :)

bigalexe
May 4, 2011, 10:51 AM
For all the doctors I have seen I rarely if ever discuss guns with them. The few I have mentioned it to are all local and don't take issue.

On a side note last week I was at a doctor visit and there was a guy in the elevator with his arm splinted from a bullet wound, the other two bullets went in his chest. Yes this was in Detroit. I can understand how seeing kids (guy was maybe 20-25, same age as me) taking random bullets can deter doctors from liking guns, its kind of a poisonous introduction.

Professor Gun
May 4, 2011, 11:07 AM
I think that physicians who are gun friendly vs those who are gun hostile is just a reflection of the cross section of society.

Having said that, I am a Ph.D. who is a professor at a university. I would suggest that among faculty who have Ph.D.'s there is an overwhelming level of anti-gun sentiment. I am a rarity, being involved in USPSA and Three Gun, as well as running NRA pistol classes and helping out with Appleseed Rifle Marksmanship clinics.

danprkr
May 4, 2011, 12:08 PM
Have no idea of the answer to your question, but will be tracking this thread with great interest.

FWIW - I once overheard a conversation between a surgeon of mine, and his office nurse that started with the Dr saying, "If you can shoot a turkey the best way to skin it is..." Unfortunately they moved on down the hall, and I still have NO idea of how to skin a turkey, but I'd bet he's not anti. He may not be seriously pro because I offered to swap him for services and he didn't even nibble, but hopefully he's not one of those antis who hunt.

General Geoff
May 4, 2011, 12:19 PM
If your pediatrician doesn't care about safe storage of firearms in the home, then he isn't really doing his job, and I would wonder what other important things he doesn't care about.
I suppose it's a valid concern when dealing with families whose children are sheltered from guns (or are irresponsible and thus restricted access to them), but what about those kids who have full access to firearms in the home because their parents have taught them safe gun handling, have been ingrained with good habits, and are shooting enthusiasts themselves?

Dr_B
May 4, 2011, 12:31 PM
I'm a professor and I am pro-gun. I agree with "Professor Gun" above, who stated "among faculty who have Ph.D.'s there is an overwhelming level of anti-gun sentiment." Some of the other profs I know are gun owners who aren't into guns that much. But the majority of them are anti-gun. I have not had an honest discussion with my physician about his view on guns, but I assume he might be middle of the road.

osteodoc08
May 4, 2011, 12:50 PM
As a physician, I have noticed that it depends on the persons upbringing. I have plenty of physician friends that hunt and fish, but I wouldn't lump them into the catagory of avid shooters. It is more of a social event thing such as a dove shoot.

Some of them are avid shooters and typically shoot on thier own land quite frequently.

I have met a few very anti-gun docs, but those are in the minority and are typically not "from the south".

I will only bring up firearms in certain situations. Usually if someone is wearing some sort of gun garb, be it a shirt or hat or the like. Mostly just for conversation. I don't go parading around that I'm a gun enthusiast for various reasons.

I would probably even carry in the office if it weren't against company policy. Never know when some crazed addict will go to extreme lengths to get at the meds in the locked cabinets.....unlikely, but it has happened locally in the past which resulted in an injured nurse.

I'd imagine that we, as docs, are very similar to any cross section cut in the U.S. It takes all types to make the world go 'round.

burley
May 4, 2011, 12:56 PM
Respiatory Therapist in a trauma center here. We see several gsws a week, sometimes several a day. Unlike the poster above, a negligent dc wound is rare for us. Usualy, it's young blak guys that shoot each other, older whites that shoot themselves and guys shot by cops. We're all pretty numb to gun violence,we know it's out there and alot of folks from work have CCW permits. We've recently had an amendment our gun policy on campus too. If you make a gun on a visitor, it's not to be reported unless there seems to be a threat.

41
May 4, 2011, 01:39 PM
My primary doctor and dentist are both hunters. My doctor doesn't talk about it very much, but when I go to the dentist, we always end up talking about hunting.

BP Hunter
May 4, 2011, 01:51 PM
I am a pediatrician and carry all the time. I don't carry in the office because I don't really feel that I need to but I have it in my locked safe in my office. Many nights a month I have to "run" to the hospital. Nobody knows that I carry under my scrubs.

I have many friend physicians here in the hospital who are into guns, nurses too. I also have alot of parents of my patients who are into guns and hunting. We always spend about 5 minuntes after talking about guns stuff. I also have a patient whose father is a detective. Once, he ran to me in Walmart with a child like smile in his face showing his new toy - Ruger LCP that he just bought.

You were right about the buying power of physicians. My friend surgeon, buys at least 3-4 firearms every month, I mean every month. I most probably have bought and traded about 30+ guns in 3 years.

Many parents suprisingly are good practicioners of gun safety.

GEM
May 4, 2011, 03:25 PM
Being in TX is a skewed sample, but there are usually 2 or 4 physicians at a local IDPA match. Also, in TX - I've never had any negativity about firearms when I've discussed them in terms of my medical conditions. Eyes, arthritis, etc.
I've also met some at the larger tactical conferences.

The general medical literature is not pro-firearms. Nor is the public face of academia. However, the percent of faculty having CHLs in OR and TX at 4 schools we sample for a class project a few years ago was close to the state percentange. Of course, that's low as the percent of the pop with such isn't high even in gun lovin' states.

Mooseman
May 4, 2011, 03:48 PM
I'm a Chiropractor working in a busy office in Philadelphia. I carry to and from work everyday. I generally lock up my gun while treating patients though.

ljnowell
May 4, 2011, 03:59 PM
My Doctor is very progun. He has a gun cabinet in his private office and deer heads on the wall, that he shot himself.

Dentite
May 4, 2011, 05:49 PM
Dentist here (couldn't guess from the SN right?). Geography I think plays a big role in that here in AZ most of the dentists I know do own firearms. If I was practicing in Manhatten my experience would be different.

As stated in this thread there are way more medical auxillaries (nurses, therapists, techs, etc) than physicians that it's natural that there will be more of these people on forums, etc.

I do believe that IN GENERAL I've seen a correlation with the higher the education the less gun ownership. Academia in general tends to have somewhat left-leaning tendencies and hence intentionally or unintentionally you'll have more anti-gun sentiment.

To be clear...I'm not saying the smarter you are the less you like guns, but that the more time you spend in academia the more anti-gun sentiment you'll experience and if you don't already have a background with firearms you'll be more likely to accept it as part of who you are and what you've learned.

Cricoid
May 4, 2011, 06:51 PM
I'm a doc, and am very pro-gun. Love to shoot, and I conceal carry.

Several others in my practice share the same views I do and have extensive collections.

Shadow 7D
May 4, 2011, 08:11 PM
I was on a flight once, and there was an Algerian woman having issues, they called for assistance, I was sitting next to a Doctor, I was a medic, I got up, lady was motion sick, had inner ear and anxiety issues.

I was there with another EMT, the medically trained stewardess and a ICU nurse. She was basically having a Panic attack, with vertigo. The doctor said that it's too much of a hassle with liability for a doctor to just jump in, and most doctors DON'T do emergency medicine. That's right folks, he was scared of Lawyers, Good Samaritan laws didn't cover me, and defiantly doesn't cover a Doctor.

So, it's like this, go to a party, and someone finds out X is a doctor, and then they say, "I've got this pain..." This is a gun board, not a medicine board, so much like the soldiers, veteran and cops, who may qualify their post with 'I learned this *here*"

I doubt a doctor will say 'in my practice guns....' as medicine and guns rarely cross, but I have read in S&T a few corners opinions about different ammo.

monet61
May 4, 2011, 08:13 PM
My Dr is a MAJOR gun guy. He has some serious hardware. The safe in his office cost more than my pickup. We get along great.:D

kevin davis
May 4, 2011, 08:48 PM
for dan parker: i skin my turkey by cutting alont the keel, peeling the skin back along the sides to the wing bases and knees and then cut all that off and cut the neck off near its base. that leaves the best part of the bird. i just cooked my spring turkey and am eating it now.

back to topic. i am a physician and love guns, shooting, and especially hunting. down here in south texas many doctors are into all of the above, frequently the ones from foreign countries where they might not have been able to own or use them in their native land.

Loosedhorse
May 4, 2011, 09:20 PM
American Association of Pediatrics (or what ever it is called) I believe has an antigun statement in its mission statement.
The AAP's policy statement on firearms (http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;105/4/888) has not been updated since 2000. As such it is fairly comical (and I would have thought, embarrassingly inaccurate):Several legal reviews emphasize that the Second Amendment does not protect an individual's gun ownership. Two cases,Presser v Illinois and United States v Miller, have established the meaning of the Second Amendment. These and later federal court rulings have indicated that the "right" to bear arms is linked to the preservation of state militias and is not intended to provide for an individual's right to own a firearm. The federal government could ban whole categories of firearms, such as handguns and assault weapons.

In their advice to parents (http://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/all-around/Pages/Gun-Safety-Keeping-Children-Safe.aspx), they continue to quote the "43 times" fiction, and say flatly that you should not purchase a gun, and if you have, it should be removed from the home. I think, all tolled, they have asked us to judge their competence.

Nevertheless, they printed these letters from pro-gun docs:Guns are `perfectly reasonable' defense tools (http://aapnews.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/11/9/23-a); Offensive advertising (http://aapnews.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/6/4/14-c); and Firearms education (http://aapnews.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/6/6/19-a).

If you look up the American College of Emergency Physicians, their firearms policy (http://www.acep.org/Content.aspx?id=29480) is slightly less antigun, but they call for increased regulations, espeically along the "consumer safety" lines. And the AMA (https://ssl3.ama-assn.org/apps/ecomm/PolicyFinderForm.pl?site=www.ama-assn.org&uri=%2fresources%2fdoc%2fPolicyFinder%2fpolicyfiles%2fHnE%2fH-145.997.HTM) is no better.

pikid89
May 4, 2011, 09:23 PM
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/


im pretty sure this guy is a member here at THR too...he could prob give you some good insight on guns and the medical field

6.5swede
May 4, 2011, 10:05 PM
I'm an Orthopedic surgeon and avid hunter / gun enthusiast. My passion for such is a product of my upbringing. I grew up in a blue collar family in VA and spent a large portion of my younger days hunting and fishing. My profession exposes me to a lot of human gun related injuries. I've learned as much about terminal performance of bullets in wounded people as I have in animals that I've harvested over the past 30 years. I agree with a previous poster that the percentage of gun friendly vs anti-gun physicians reflects a cross section of society in general. I have several physician friends who are just as passionate about hunting and guns as I am. Escaping to the outdoors with one of my favorite rifles or shotguns is my prescription for stress relief and maintaining some sanity in this crazy world.

8654Maine
May 4, 2011, 10:24 PM
In most professions where you deal with the public on a daily basis, privacy is very important. I really don't want folks to know what I do. And I dislike getting the "hey, I've got this rash" type of questions in social settings.

You'd be surprised at what we do: Just in my ER group: we have several former Marines, one naval navigator, one navy doc, on AF doc. One of our PA was Recon Corpsman. Another PA was Army Ranger (we talked alot of Ranger school). I remember one ER doc in NH who was DevGrp.

Me: I'm just a lucky Marine doing what I luv best. Instead of talking health, I'd rather talk 7.62, 5.56, .45, etc. Or Force Recon or Ranger school. Or jumping, Draeger Lar V, CQB, or best home defense.

Besides, lumping all docs into one organization or stereotype is well...:banghead:

KingMedicine
May 4, 2011, 10:27 PM
I work in a Hospital. And ive taken the Docs out to go shooting a few times. They love it. But alas... Idaho might be a bit different then a few other states.

Ignition Override
May 4, 2011, 11:31 PM
The lady next door is an ER physician at a few hospitals, including "The Med".
When she heard that I was buying ammo, her reaction was "Ammunition?!"

Maybe her exposure to the results of criminal actions/stupid mistakes with guns prompted it, or she had never heard anybody admit such a thing.

There could easily be another reason, as she is from a small city/town in AR (gun-friendly state).

Shadow 7D
May 4, 2011, 11:46 PM
Well, don't mention 'two dudes' around her or she might get a little ancy

(I have seen pics, and was regaled with all the cases where 'some guy, just minding my own business, when Two Dudes just...')

jiminhobesound
May 5, 2011, 05:11 PM
Seems that most physicians are pretty busy people and not personally involved in espousing political or social activities. However, the AMA is very active and very antigun. I sat through a seminar at Shands hospital in Gainesville, Florida wherein the physician lectured on guns as medical problem. The presentation was full of statistics and lacking in professional presentation or content.

rjrivero
May 5, 2011, 05:36 PM
Our local shop just had a private CCW class with a local trauma surgeon. He invited his trauma team to take the class at his ranch.

Nice ranch I'm told, lots of Arabian Horses, and now a Trauma Surgery team that is packing heat. Good day all around, I think.

6.5swede
May 5, 2011, 05:46 PM
Seems that most physicians are pretty busy people and not personally involved in espousing political or social activities. However, the AMA is very active and very antigun. I sat through a seminar at Shands hospital in Gainesville, Florida wherein the physician lectured on guns as medical problem. The presentation was full of statistics and lacking in professional presentation or content.

That's a crying shame because that's where I did my Orthopaedic training :banghead:. The presenter of that seminar should thank his lucky stars that I wasn't present to instill a little lively debate on the topic!

dirtykid
May 5, 2011, 06:04 PM
My family >> 2-RN's 1-LPN ,, all 3 careers mostly involved with the care of elderly/physical or mental diasabled. 2-of them are pro-guns 1-is married to gun-freak.
My wifes side 1-LPN 4-EMT/first responders All five repeat horror-stories of the ER EVERY time we gather (they know i carry), When it comes to kids/guns they are espically vigalent of preaching against gun-violence,, I suppose if i saw it 1st-hand i would be too,,

Shadow 7D
May 5, 2011, 07:21 PM
Kid, here in lies the problem

GUN =/= viloence
there is a lack, in logic/debate it's called a fallacy (same root as FAIL) as in a failing to properly reason

These people -AMA, APA, etc.- link the gun and the violence without addressing the responsibility or culture of VIOLENCE that is the root of it all.

Sorry but, if gang banger didn't have guns, the would use knives, bats, cars, Molotov cocktails or just plain old beer mugs---YEPPERS, just like good 'ol England. Yet, by laying all the blame on the 'evil gun' they can continue to hold the 'poor victim' - Violent CRIMINAL- as simply a innocent.

The Lack of Responsibility is what steams me

Carne Frio
May 5, 2011, 09:52 PM
My last full time job ended when I retired three years ago. It was a small clinic
with about 40 Docs. Half of them were CCW or avid hunters. A few were
strong gun control advocates. Many of the nurses, technologists and front
desk staff also carried and hunted. The clinic's location accounts for that.

Unistat
May 5, 2011, 10:06 PM
My wife's OB-GYN is pro-gun. He teaches concealed-carry classes. It's nice because he doesn't care if we carry in the office and he has Guns & Ammo laying around in the waiting room.

Black Butte
May 5, 2011, 10:39 PM
I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV.

PT1911
May 5, 2011, 10:42 PM
I am a nurse and very pro-gun... several of the physicians i work with on a daily basis are also very pro gun... of course there are those on the other side of the fence... but they tend to be pretty closed minded about a lot more than guns.

vito
May 6, 2011, 09:31 AM
I have worked in health care my entire working life and in general, the health care industry is anti-gun. I do not know of a single hospital in the US that does NOT have a policy prohibiting guns within the institution. In some cases even LEO's will be asked to not bring a firearm into the building. Part of the rationale seems to be that a crazed patient might be able to wrestle a firearm from someone and thus become a real danger to others. But mostly, the no-gun policies seem to be the same stupid thinking that by prohibiting guns they will actually keep criminals from bringing guns into the hospital. Many, including physicians who work in hospitals come to accept the anti-gun philosophy of their institution without giving it much thought. If one were a criminal intent upon shooting someone, a health care facility would normally be a good place to choose to do it, on the assumption that there will likely not be anyone armed ready to stop them. Of course there are even more anti-gun facilities which give a criminal shooter even greater assurance of not facing an armed defender such as schools.

Loosedhorse
May 6, 2011, 09:39 AM
I reviewed the firearms policy at one local hospital. The policy clearly stated that "patients and visitors" were not allowed to bring firearms. No distinction was made between licensed and illegal carry; even LEOs could only enter armed "in the performance of their duy," not as patients.

It also, elsewhere, said that hourly employees were not allowed to carry firearms...but it specifically did not mention salaried employees: the docs and the admins.

There also was a policy in place that if you thought someone was violating the policy, you were mandated to report them. This had the effect of making it impossible to ask for clarification of the policy, because that could make someone suspect you were violating the policy...and so begins an investigation.

Did I mention: I know for a fact the CEO (an MD) carried daily.

paramedic70002
May 6, 2011, 02:16 PM
I carry everywhere that's legal and that won't get me fired from my job. I carry to my primary care Doctor visits. He runs his examination around the weapon if I forget (or can't - small kid in room) to take it off without comment.

rellascout
May 6, 2011, 02:46 PM
Like in real estate location location location... It is all about geography. In areas where hunting is popular & where a states population is pro-gun there are more Drs that shoot and own guns.

I do not work in the medical field but my wife does and we have lived in VA and WV and in both states she has worked with a lot of pro gun Drs.

I agree with what others have stated: I have never entered a hospital where there was not a posted sign prohibiting guns within the institution.

Mooseman
May 6, 2011, 03:44 PM
I have worked in health care my entire working life and in general, the health care industry is anti-gun. I do not know of a single hospital in the US that does NOT have a policy prohibiting guns within the institution. In some cases even LEO's will be asked to not bring a firearm into the building.

I've often wondered if this is really a sign that an institution is anti-gun or is it more along the lines of decreasing liability in case something happens.

Technically I am not allowed to carry to work but I do because of the area. My employers know that I have a carry permit and go to the range regularly. I don't tell them I carry and they don't ask.

Ignition Override
May 6, 2011, 04:01 PM
Shadow 7D:
Months ago, English people living in Memphis told me that not only was the UK Parliament trying to prohibit sales of knives to anybody under a certain age, but they were trying to convert beer mugs from glass or ceramic to plastic.

Pubs in bad areas seem to have a large problem with Assault Mugs.

Mooseman
May 6, 2011, 04:16 PM
There was an assault across the street this week. Bunch of the local highschoolers beating each other up. The one weapon I happened to notice was a rock in a sock. Time to prohibit socks.

Usmc-1
May 7, 2011, 10:40 AM
Y a gotta figure with the amount of time we've been at war now , there has to be lots of medical professionals who carry or are into guns , I never met a doc who was in the military who wasnt , maybe there are I dont know!

Daveboone
May 7, 2011, 12:01 PM
I am an RN.
I have many professional acquaintances who are avid hunters/ gun owners.
From what I see at work and knowing the hours the docs put in, I doubt many of them have the time for much time online outside of professional matters.
Considering the moronic way most gun injuries are allowed to happen that we see (from accidental discharges, drunken assaults, "unloaded" guns going off,etc.) I think it is entirely appropriate for the docs in our inner city hospital to inquire about potential home hazards... like guns. In the more rural setting where I live, it is unlikely to be asked.

9MMare
May 7, 2011, 12:04 PM
While I can understand any medical professional not liking guns because they can see the damage that they do or a regular basis....it should be the same with cars....and I bet (almost) all docs drive. And all of them have a much better chance of causing harm with the car any day of the week.

Edit: sorry, I'm still working on my morning coffee....I got a bit off topic there.

9MMare
May 7, 2011, 12:07 PM
Respiatory Therapist in a trauma center here. We see several gsws a week, sometimes several a day. Unlike the poster above, a negligent dc wound is rare for us. Usualy, it's young blak guys that shoot each other, older whites that shoot themselves and guys shot by cops. We're all pretty numb to gun violence,we know it's out there and alot of folks from work have CCW permits. We've recently had an amendment our gun policy on campus too. If you make a gun on a visitor, it's not to be reported unless there seems to be a threat.

My cousin's husband is a respiratory therapist. What a job with big responsibilities...and underappreciated and underpaid! (In FL at least) IMO

gc70
May 7, 2011, 12:49 PM
I have lived in a number of cities and have never had a medical professional in an office environment initiate a conversation about guns by volunteering their position on guns. However, when my gun ownership came up (sciatica versus holster position, astigmatism versus shooting glasses, even moving my carry gun in the dentist chair), all of the medical professionals involved were either neutral or pro-gun. Now, my GP talks my ear off about guns whenever I visit his office.

Shrinkmd
May 7, 2011, 01:13 PM
Wow, 3 or 4 new acquisitions per month, can't really enjoy them all! Sometimes I almost wish I stuck with my 686 and 617. These things are like guppies.

The APA has some assinine statement just like AMA and the pediatricians. From what I see they espouse the same nonsense about waiting times, private sales, "education" about storage. Their website says they adopted the first four actions from the "doctorsagainsthandguninjury" site. It's so cute how their propaganda works, implying that anyone who doesn't agree with them must be "for" handgun violence.

Looks like they closed that website, and their page on the trauma surgeons association website hasn't been updated since 2003. Sebastian posts more in a day then they post in a decade.

There is a big difference between asking suicidal, violent, or otherwise impaired patients about gun access vs. the "ban them all" propaganda espoused by the association.

They don't get dues from me anymore for that reason alone.

GEM
May 7, 2011, 08:36 PM
Heard on the radio today that FL is passing a law against the pediatrician question set. That true?

It was on NPR and a very straightforward report. Interviewed Marion Hammer and the RKBA folks sound more sensible than the other side. Of course, I'm biased. :D

1894
May 7, 2011, 08:49 PM
From the NRAILA Update:

Senate Bill 432, introduced by state Senator Greg Evers (R-2), was heard on the state Senate Floor on Wednesday, April 27 and the identical House Bill, House Bill 155, sponsored by state Representative Jason Brodeur (R-33), which already passed the state House, was substituted -- effectively creating one bill, HB 155. Yesterdy, HB 155 came up on the state Senate Floor for debate and final passage. The bill PASSED the Senate by a 27 to 10 vote and is now on its way to Governor Rick Scott for his signature.

HB 155is a bill to stop antigun doctors asking children and parents if they own guns and then telling them to get rid of their guns. Further it stops Doctors from denying care to children if their parents refuse to answer questions about gun ownership. To view a copy of the final bill as passed the Legislature click here.

A report of the roll call votes on all three bills and who debated FOR and AGAINST the bills will come later. We are continuing to work to pass the Concealed Weapons reform bill.

In the meantime, you may wish to thank:

State Senator Greg Evers and state Representative Jason Brodeur for sponsoring and passing SB 432 and HB 155 to stop pediatricians from violating patients firearms privacy rights.
evers.greg.web@flsenate.gov
jason.brodeur@myfloridahouse.gov

NMGonzo
May 7, 2011, 10:03 PM
my stepdad was an MD ... now long retired.

He was the one that introduced me to guns.

Resto Guy
May 7, 2011, 10:13 PM
Drs. are like most of us, with similar interests.
Last month I was invited to the gun range by two Drs. that I know. One of them has a CHP and owns a large collection. We traded off on all of our guns and shot several hundred rounds. I got to shoot his AR-15 and Garand, my first time trying out those guns.
We plan to try clay shooting soon.

Rick Roll
May 8, 2011, 12:17 AM
Pro-Gun Future Doctor here (still in grad school...)

whalerman
May 8, 2011, 12:29 AM
What is a GSW? I wish people would make a little effort and type out names.

We've mentioned Docs, teachers, professor types, and others who seem to inherit anti gun sentiment. We question as to why. I'd submit that the people who are most anti gun are people who have been insulated from reality, insulated from life. These kinds of folk stay in a controlled setting for years, going to school and interacting only with others of their type. If you stay at in a university setting for 5-6 years then enter a work environ where everyone thinks the same, you are going to be the same. Individual thought is not encouraged in that setting. Docs stay in the same insulated world for over a decade. No wonder they all think alike. People want to fit in. And anti gun emotion is fashionable in these settings.

Rick Roll
May 8, 2011, 12:43 AM
Whalerman, GSW is short for "Gun Shot Wound." It is a common abbreviation in the medical field. Most docs are so used to it they forget most people don't know what the abbreviations mean.

Tinpig
May 8, 2011, 01:44 AM
My daughter is an ER physician in an inner-city hospital in Boston. I can tell you that there's nothing "insulated" about the ER at Boston City Hospital. She went to an inner-city medical school in New York and there was nothing "insulated" about her rotations at Bellvue Hospital.

If anyone has seen the carnage wrought by the misuse of guns, it's law enforcement, ambulance, and ER staff.
She isn't anti-gun, but she sure wants to see them kept out of the wrong hands.

Tinpig

Tim the student
May 8, 2011, 02:26 AM
Most docs I have met were pretty gun friendly. But, the majority of docs I met were in the Army, so maybe some of that "same environment" thing was going on there too.

My provider (VA, FWIW) now has never asked me about guns at all. She did ask what I liked to do for fun, and when I told her I like to shoot and fish and hunt, she didn't bat an eye. No lectures, no interrogation. Just a "be safe" - which I think she would have said if I told her I liked to rock climb, or mountain bike.

A friend of mine is a physician. She knows I shoot a lot. Her husband shoots trap weekly, and (gasp) keeps guns in the house. She may not be as pro as most of us, but she surely isn't completely anti either. If she was anti, I don't think she would have married the trap shooter, or spoke with me again when she found out I like to shoot.

Got another buddy from high school who is now a physician. He isn't anti either.

My experiences tell me that all docs don't think alike as far as guns go. Maybe most do, but certainly not all.

-v-
May 8, 2011, 02:52 AM
Doctors are very much the same cross-section of society as any other profession, so it's fair to say 1/3 will be pro-gun, 1/3 won't really care one way or another and 1/3 will be opposed.


The health-care fields other insistence of anti-firearms is in part liability concern. Like the above example of a lady having a panic attack on the plane. If you're an MD you are acutely aware of the threat of being sued, and equally aware that your malpractice insurance only covers you when you are at work. Thus, its only natural to do everything you can to minimize your exposure to potential lawsuits, including taking the more safe anti-gun stance. I'm sure if you asked the AMA, they are also stringently anti-alcohol, anti-four wheeler and motorcycle, and anti-extreme sports too. No reason to give endorsements to things that can potentially cause bodily harm, or encourage risky behavior and result in you being sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars!

Plus, the reason we hear from so few doctors is that they make up a very small percent of all the health-care field. Taking my local ER as an example - a small 20 bed facility - there are 2 doctors in the ER, 0-1 PAs, 10+ RNs/LPNs, and about 15-20 other miscellaneous techs and allied health professionals. On a most days, the doctors are outnumbered by all the other staff at a ration of 10:1 or more.

whalerman
May 8, 2011, 03:03 AM
Tinpig, its the preparation of these people that causes them to be insulated. They attend school for many years, talk only to like minded people, don't get out much with regular folks. They are never short on ego and tend to have like minded friends. They know a whole lot about very little. They're specialists, but don't know how to change a tire. That's where the problems start. By the time they are working the "streets" the group think is already in place.

Demarko
May 8, 2011, 03:10 AM
Two of my medical professionals, one nurse at my doctor's office, and my dentist, are both pro-gun and the dentist I know carries (not in the office). That's definitely disproportionate to other professional fields I can think of.

As a side note (read: tangent): With all the medications that now have side effects that include "thoughts of suicide or suicidal action," I wonder if the question of whether or not there are guns in the home will become more common before receiving a prescription.

Would a doctor be less likely to prescribe, say, Chantix to someone with easy access to a firearm? Would some consider it a part of their anti-gun agenda (if they were leaning that way)?

Loosedhorse
May 8, 2011, 08:40 AM
most anti gun are people who have been insulated from reality, insulated from life.
Lots of possible theories, for example:


They were the nerdy types who got good grades in school, and the last thing they want is bullies with guns.
They are used to the idea of an intellectual aristocracy, and a rabble with guns is horrifying.
They are in a European and Ivy League dominated milieu, and must emulate the effete, an perhaps feminized, ideals of that environment.
They are used to the idea that there is one right idea, and it comes from professors, presidents of professional societies, and books.
There are many other, less generous theories. I suspect they all tell a very small part of the story.

lizziedog1
May 8, 2011, 09:02 AM
Dentist here (couldn't guess from the SN right?). Geography I think plays a big role in that here in AZ most of the dentists I know do own firearms. If I was practicing in Manhatten my experience would be different.



Great point about Geography. The medical folks around here are into guns and hunting, as is everyone in rural Nevada.

Even teachers around here are progun.

Tim the student
May 8, 2011, 10:56 AM
Whalerman, do you see any alternate possibilities here?

lono
May 8, 2011, 11:00 AM
I am a pharmacist and my best friend is an MD, we both have an unhealthy firearms addiction.:D

8654Maine
May 8, 2011, 02:26 PM
"Tinpig, its the preparation of these people that causes them to be insulated. They attend school for many years, talk only to like minded people, don't get out much with regular folks. They are never short on ego and tend to have like minded friends. They know a whole lot about very little. They're specialists, but don't know how to change a tire. That's where the problems start. By the time they are working the "streets" the group think is already in place."

This applies to just about any other profession.

I know docs like this. But I also know teachers, lawyers, bakers, etc...who fit this profile.

Yeah, I got an ego. Who doesn't?

edit: The above quote is too narrow a view of docs. They are folks whose experience and life encompass all walks of life.

ms6852
May 8, 2011, 02:40 PM
I'm retired military and work in a military hospital. So every doctor that I know is in to guns but they too are military. So where do we fall in your query?

sakata8242
May 9, 2011, 06:29 PM
I'm a medical student. Does that count? :D

But I'm inclined to agree with some of the observations others have posted. Most of my colleagues/professors/etc are all pretty liberal minded and if they don't approach firearms with that "on the fence apprehension" they are outright anti-gun.

8654Maine
May 9, 2011, 07:06 PM
Which school (if I may ask)?

Rick Roll
May 9, 2011, 09:26 PM
Whalerman, while it is easy to assume that physicians only "know" medicine, you should rethink that. :scrutiny: I consider myself to be pretty handy, availing myself to various hobbies as well as living as active of a lifestyle as I can while in school. You shouldn't assume that physicians are that far-separated from everyday people. Medicine is not like what you see on TV.

I highly doubt that I will lose my tire-changing capabilities once I receive my doctorate, but we shall see... you may be right yet. :rolleyes:

8654Maine
May 9, 2011, 11:07 PM
Yeah, some docs are narrow minded.

Some are very cool.

I just finished my head gasket and re-sealed my front axle.

I'll be shooting steel plates w/ my trauma & anesthesia buds this weekend.

Later this year, I'll attend my Force Recon re-union: those boys are insulated and egotistical!

Maybe I'll try to catch up with my Ranger buddy, too.

Yeah, being an ER doc, I know much about little.:neener:

It's all in good fun.;)

txhoghunter
May 9, 2011, 11:13 PM
During the occasional check up here is a question I get from the doc:

"When you hunt, do you wear electronic muffs? Ear plugs? or nothing?"

Me: "Muffs or plugs"

Doc: "In that case I bet your hearing is better than mine. I still have trouble finding my earplugs when I get out into the field!"

kayak-man
May 9, 2011, 11:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGYttXa0d1k

Look, Jeff Cooper was a keynote speaker at the15th Annual Meeting of the Doctors for Disaster Preparedness held in San Diego, California; June 1997!

I see the issue two ways:

1) For the sake of argument, lets say that most doctors are anti-gun. Popular culture does, IMO, portray the medical profession as being anti-violence. Chances are there are some out there that are trying to fit in with this image, because it is human nature to want to fit in.

Also, look at the kind of people that are drawn to the medical proffession - they want to help others, they are intelectual, and possess the patience and discipline to go to school for a few extra years (I'm taking medical terminology this quarter, and that class alone has given me so much more respect for anyone who goes through med school.) The proffession doesn't necessarily atract the kind of people that would be into guns.

On the other hand,

2) Lets say, for the sake of argument, that most in the medical field are pro-gun. Depending on your discipline, the medical field can atract the guys who like the chaotic emergency room enviroment, or aren't afraid of getting thier hands dirty at the Operating Table. They may have a predisposition to being por-gun. Thier brain may be wired like a cop's, or soldiers.

I think its like most things, where you've got the left, right, everything inbetween, and then some.

MrWesson
May 10, 2011, 11:55 AM
My best friend is a ER doc and he carries everyday.

Very deep concealment/not a word to anyone.

My wife will be a carrying dentist.

ForumSurfer
May 10, 2011, 12:13 PM
Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems like there is also a disproportionate representation of medical professionals as well. Medics, EMTs, Nurses, etc. However, it also seems that there are relatively few physicians.

I don't know about that. I recently traded a glock for an XDM. The guy was a nurse and several of his coworkers were shooting buddies from what he said.

You'd never get an accurate picture of any demographic based on this forum. I've traded pistols and rifles (including ccw stuff) with more than one pastor, also.

GEM
May 10, 2011, 12:16 PM
Just remembered that the dentist and cardiologist had American Rifleman mags in the waiting room. Could be TX, though. :D

CoRoMo
May 10, 2011, 04:33 PM
Both of my folks are in the medical field. Both carry. Neither are into internet forums.

TYY
May 11, 2011, 01:42 AM
I'm a physician (otolaryngology/head&neck surgery) and into guns. I have seen and dealt with the horrific injuries caused by firearms; it just makes me take the 4 rules that much more seriously.

shootingthebreeze
May 11, 2011, 08:54 AM
I'm an RN, retired military, and have a CPL. I like to practice at the firing range regularly and I am comfortable around firearms.
Now as a medical professional, and ex military, I'm a stickler regarding safety. Also, when I fire a weapon, I clean it right away-maintaining a firearm is part of safety, making sure the weapon operates properly.
I know other RNs who own firearms. All of them have a higher degree of respect towards firearms regarding safety.

monkyboy1975
May 11, 2011, 12:51 PM
Am both an EMT-I and LPN here; And yes, I am very Pro Gun.:)

Cop Bob
May 11, 2011, 05:32 PM
I was assigned to a district that covered major hospitals, I took a side job in the County ER, one of only 2 Level 1 Trauma Centers within 100 miles or so. It was BUSY, we often saw 450 patients on a 24hr census.. I worked two to three 8 hr shifts in the ER a week..Usually night shifts, I did this for about 6 years.. I formed many life long friendships there... I attended the funeral of one of those nurse buddies last Saturday (cancer)... he was definitely a gun guy...

My observations were pretty much along the lines posted, If the young doc's were from out of state, up north, as we call it... many of them were anti... However, the Texas bred, or those from surrounding states, or Ak, Colorado, Montana, N or S Dak.. they pretty much were 2nd amendment folks..

A few of the nurses owned and carried, especially after one was assaulted in the the parking garage.. After that incident, I was cornered by several of the doc's and nurses and asked about guns, and training..

A few of the Staff doc's were really into guns, they just didn't talk about it too much at work..

A note on Accidental Discharges and Glocks... yup,, about 80% of all AD's in our department are with Glocks.. but a bunch of our guys swear by them..

Steve 48
May 11, 2011, 06:00 PM
I am a Psychologist but was a hunter and gun owner first. With all the 'nuts' I work with, why would you think I carry a gun!!!!!

ForumSurfer
May 11, 2011, 06:06 PM
I am a Psychologist but was a hunter and gun owner first. With all the 'nuts' I work with, why would you think I carry a gun!!!!!

Funny that you bring that up, I dated a psychologist that switched gears to work with troubled (read: felonious) youth. She was pretty hardcore anti-gun right up until she got her first threatening stalker.

paramedic70002
May 12, 2011, 02:57 AM
With all these Doctors here I have a question.

I've got this area on my...

Sorry, somebody had to do it!

Twiki357
May 12, 2011, 05:00 AM
Maybe I’m a little to paranoid, but medical questioning about firearms in the house (So I’ve heard) is starting out in medical schools. I understand that it is also a required input field for the government accessible computerized medical records required by obamacare. I DO know that it was a question on a recent medical evaluation questionnaire from my insurance carrier. It was also an issue in Florida in 2010 to the point that there was state legislation, at least proposed, to prohibit doctors from asking (No idea of the outcome.) A common consensus is that it is an end run around the prohibition on the access to BATF records by the hussain obama administration and his anti-gun Chicago cronnies.

Odd Job
May 12, 2011, 05:34 AM
Much depends on culture.
In South Africa I attended an anti-hijacking course with four other guys: 2 paramedics, one radiologist and one orthopaedic surgeon. That was a necessity because medical staff were being hijacked with alarming frequency in JHB and some were shot and killed. One was shot dead whilst the rear wheels of his BMW were still on hospital premises.
So yes, we did those courses and many of us carried on the job, usually concealed. The last time I went on a medical response car in JHB I was encouraged to "carry" by the doctor and the paramedic on that shift.

UK: different story. Here it is seen as a Bad Thing(tm) if you have any interest in guns. Nonetheless we have ranges where a visitor can take a .22 rifle or a lever action .357 and shoot paper targets, if it is a guest day at the range.
Now, I have made it my mission to get as many people as I can from the allied and medical community (these are my colleagues after all) down to the range to do some shooting, especially if they haven't been before. I gotta tell you that in all these years I have been a member I have scored a grand total of 1 doctor. It was a female GP and she won't be back because when her husband saw the pictures (he is a doctor also) he said she can't do that again. He is mega anti (we are still friends though).

I have had some successes with allied staff such as nurses and radiographers. The Australians have been keen to come down to the range, I must have taken about 4 or 5 Ozzie radiographers alone.
Generally the doctors are anti here in the UK. In SA I would estimate that most are anti, but there are those who will buy a gun and learn to use it as a necessity.

Oyeboten
May 12, 2011, 05:40 AM
What about Veterinarians?

12131
May 12, 2011, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by paramedic70002:
With all these Doctors here I have a question.

I've got this area on my...

Sorry, somebody had to do it!
You know that we just have to tell you to have that area looked at by your PCP, right? :evil:

Gark
May 14, 2011, 12:49 AM
I am an MD, and also former Army Infantry and Armored Cavalry -- yes, I love to shoot things and blow things up. A lot of my Physician colleagues are avid weapons enthusiasts and excellent craftsman at their trade. I think that a lot of professional people in many different fields and business owners are work hard/party hard kinda people and people who like to live further out on the edge then a lot of others in a very general sense. I think physicians are somewhat more anal then the general population and are general over-achievers (not that they are any smarter, because they are not -- but because they are more driven to excel). Perhaps their drive is a bit obsessive/compulsive but not in a completely pathologic sort of way. Oh, and I just remembered, I need to go clean my guns again!!!:banghead::):banghead:

friscolatchi
May 14, 2011, 02:41 AM
I'm an ED PA and many of the MD and PA's I work with carry and like to shoot, as well as the RN's. We work in a small city ED in Upstate NY (70k visits/year). We're not the trauma center so don't get many GSW's. Recently I had a pt who was reloading and the primers ignited. I dug one out of his face. We did get to talk about firearms through the visit. I love when a get a pt wearing camo of some sort as this give me an opening to ask "do you hunt or shoot". Love it during suturing - plenty to talk about. It gets my pt satisfaction numbers up.

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