.416 Remington Magnum vs. .458 Lott


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Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 01:30 PM
They are both based on the .375 H&H magnum pushed to the limits. The .416 is a little flatter shooting, but the .458 has better SD. I want to get a big bore safari rifle, but I'm stuck on which cartridge to get. I don't know of any rifle's currently chambered in the .416 though it wouldn't be that hard to rechamber an american safari magnum to it. What are your opinions on this dilemma?

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MachIVshooter
May 4, 2011, 01:36 PM
"Flat shooting" is not a phrase typically associated with either of these cartridges.

The Lott hits a quite a bit harder on both ends. Both are expensive to feed.

I guess that doesn't really help you decide, sorry. Both are really dedicated short to moderate range dangerous game cartridges. It depends on your recoil limit more than anything.

Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 01:45 PM
I forgot to mention that a trip to africa is very unlikely for me. This would just be a fun thumper gun. So basically that sort of narrows it down to .458 due to the wider variety of bullets available cheap. But if I ever do become financially able to go to africa, I would like a gun that is suitable for everything, so that narrows it down to .416. You see the dilemma?

Guy de Loimbard
May 4, 2011, 01:52 PM
If you are only looking for a fun thumper gun, I would suggest looking for a .45-70. If you don't reload, ammo availability is greater, and if you do, components will be cheaper.

And if you do go to Africa, it is suitable for everything.

Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 01:59 PM
I don't think that the .45-70 is suitable for everything. I may be capable of everything, but so is the .30-06.

Dain Bramage
May 4, 2011, 01:59 PM
I buy lottery tickets every once in a while. I'm an engineer, took higher math in college. I understand odds. I'm not an idiot.

I consider the few bucks I spend fair pay for a decent daydream.

Buy the .416. As a "fun thumper", how often would you shoot it anyway? Consider expensive ammo the cost for keeping the Africa dream alive.

Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 02:05 PM
Probably not that often, maybe once or twice a month for about 20 rounds.

Guy de Loimbard
May 4, 2011, 02:09 PM
I found an article written by Vince Lupo which may interest you.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm
He used .45-70 (a Marlin Guide Gun) to take the African Big Six.

Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 02:15 PM
I've already read that article. I posted a few months ago about safari leverguns and it was agreed upon that there is no leveraction cartridge suitable for african dangerous game.

saturno_v
May 4, 2011, 03:03 PM
Pigoutultra



I'm exactly in your same situation...I will never do a safari, I'm not even an hunter but for collecting purposes I want a big elephant rifle.
I'm waiting for the right (pricewise) 458 Lott to come under my nose (I'm pretty sure it will be a CZ Safari)
I like the 458 because:

- Bigger caliber, bigger oomph...I will shoot it very rarely, why not going all the way?? :D

- WIth a 458 Lott rifle you can also fire the more economical and easier to find 458 Winchester Magnum cartridge.

If you are only looking for a fun thumper gun, I would suggest looking for a .45-70. If you don't reload, ammo availability is greater, and if you do, components will be cheaper.

And if you do go to Africa, it is suitable for everything.

A 45-70 is on my purchasing list too (Marln lever) but, sorry, it ain't an Elephant cartridge....

highlander 5
May 4, 2011, 03:23 PM
Get a Ruger M77 in 416 Rigby you'll be better off. Granted the rifle and ammo is expensive,but the Rigby operates at a much lower pressure level so if you ever do go to Africa you won't have the problems that the Remington and Lott rounds can give. I've never been a big fan of most cartridges that have a belt,300 and 375 H&H are the exceptions. The 416 Rigby launches a 400 gr bullet at 22 or 2300 fps how much more horse power do you need?
416 Rigby brass can be made from 460 Weatherby brass by removing the belt.
IIRC CZ make a 416 Rigby as well. And if you do make it to Africa 416 Rigby will probably a lot easier to find than the 416 Rem and 458 Lott.

Hizzie
May 4, 2011, 03:27 PM
In "Dangerous Game Rifles" Terry Wieland considers the .458 Lott to be the most versatile of all the Dangerous Game calibers. Wide selection of bullets, ability to down load to 45/70 levels, 350gr TSX's for longer range plains game, ect. He prints that if he could have but 1 rifle it would be a Lott.

He also despises the 416 Rem.

I too have tossed the idea of getting a truly big bore but $$$ plays a role since I don't handload I will have to settle for a .375 H&H.

MachIVshooter
May 4, 2011, 03:47 PM
I don't think that the .45-70 is suitable for everything. I may be capable of everything, but so is the .30-06.

It is at reasonable ranges. It just has a rainbow trajectory. You would have a lot more fun with a Marlin 1895, though.

If you want a gun with both range and raw power, you need to be looking at the two big .375's; The .375 RUM and the .378 Weatherby. Both will push near 6,000 ft/lbs (like the .458 Lott), and both have a trajectory similar to a .270, but with twice the bullet. They're also quite nasty to shoot from the bench due to their high velocity with those big pills. My 700 BDL SS .375 RUM, at 7.5 lbs, comes back with a calculated free recoil of 83 ft/lbs at 26 FPS. To put that in perspective, a .30-06 of the same weight, firing a 180 grain bullet at 2,900 FPS, hits you with 28 ft/lbs at 15 FPS.

The .458 Lott is typically going to be found in heavier rifles (like the 10 pound CZ 550 Safari), so the recoil is a bit more tolerable, like about 70 ft/lbs at 20-22 MPH.

saturno_v
May 4, 2011, 04:43 PM
If you want a gun with both range and raw power, you need to be looking at the two big .375's; The .375 RUM and the .378 Weatherby. Both will push near 6,000 ft/lbs (like the .458 Lott), and both have a trajectory similar to a .270, but with twice the bullet. They're also quite nasty to shoot from the bench due to their high velocity with those big pills. My 700 BDL SS .375 RUM, at 7.5 lbs, comes back with a calculated free recoil of 83 ft/lbs at 26 FPS. To put that in perspective, a .30-06 of the same weight, firing a 180 grain bullet at 2,900 FPS, hits you with 28 ft/lbs at 15 FPS.

The .458 Lott is typically going to be found in heavier rifles (like the 10 pound CZ 550 Safari), so the recoil is a bit more tolerable, like about 70 ft/lbs at 20-22 MPH.


I think the big 375s are a kind of compromise...they do not have the oomph of the big "over 400" cannons at short distances nor they have the flat trajectories and extremely high SD of the super 338s....I generally like them as a concept but once I own already a 338 Win Mag, I will go for one the very big bores.

Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 05:21 PM
I think the big 375s are a kind of compromise...

The .375 H&H isn't really a compromise, it is the minimum and is most effective against plains game. The .416 Remington is the compromise between the .375 and the .458 Lott. Being good for both plains and dangerous game but not excellent for either.

MachIVshooter
May 4, 2011, 05:40 PM
they do not have the oomph of the big "over 400" cannons at short distances

I handload for the .375 RUM. A 300 gr. bullet over 99.1 grains IMR 4831 gave me 2,970 FPS for 5,877 ft/lbs. That's on par with or in excess of the "ooomph" any common "over .400" makes except the .416 and .460 Weatherby. It eclipses the .416 RM/Ruger/Rigby and .458 Win. Mag.

Nosler even lists a .375 RUM load with 96.0 grs. IMR7828 to push a 300 grainer at 3,026 for 6,100 ft/lbs.

nor they have the flat trajectories and extremely high SD of the super 338s

This is a fact, though the .375 CT is an exception to the rule. But it's also not found in sporting rifles, and the recoil would be extreme launching a 300 gr. bullet at 3,500 FPS in a < 10 lb gun.

Nonetheless, those two thumper .375's have pretty darn good trajectories.

I chose this cartridge precisely because it offered so much energy and still had a good trajectory. If it's not enough, I guess I'll be lugging around my 36 lb AR-50

Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 07:30 PM
This is a fact, though the .375 CT is an exception to the rule. But it's also not found in sporting rifles

It is my understanding that the .408 and .375 cheytac are based on the .505 Gibbs. It may be possible to convert a CZ Express to .375 CheyTac, though I can't find any oal specs on the cartridge so I can't be sure.

Ruger745
May 4, 2011, 07:41 PM
I would go with the 458 Lott since it does have the quality of having more power, but according to Hornady's reloading manual you can supposedly fire 458 Winchester magnum out of it as well essentially giving you two calibers.
If you're looking for a 416 Remington magnum, Winchester has resurrected the safari line in the 70 series
Here's the link if you want to take a look.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535116

Hope this helps.

God created men. Samuel colt made them equal

Pigoutultra
May 4, 2011, 07:45 PM
I really don't get it. Why would they offer it in two magnum length actions and one standard length action? Why not offer it in .458 as well?

I really like the CZ 550 though, having an extra 2 rounds in the mag is pretty nice considering the power we are talking about.

Ruger745
May 4, 2011, 08:08 PM
I had the same thoughts when I looked on their website. I have to say, the CZ is a great looking gun, I had the opportunity to look at several when I was in Montana last summer and fell in love with almost all of them. I kind of wonder why their rifles aren't as popular as they should be since they seem to have equal quality of the Winchester 70, Remington 700 and Ruger 77 lines.

saturno_v
May 4, 2011, 09:39 PM
It is my understanding that the .408 and .375 cheytac are based on the .505 Gibbs.

I may be wrong but I suspect that the weight of the rifle capable of launching these 2 cartridges start to be an issue....the .408 Chey Tac rifle I saw was almost in the 50 BMG class as far as size and weight.


handload for the .375 RUM. A 300 gr. bullet over 99.1 grains IMR 4831 gave me 2,970 FPS for 5,877 ft/lbs. That's on par with or in excess of the "ooomph" any common "over .400" makes except the .416 and .460 Weatherby. It eclipses the .416 RM/Ruger/Rigby and .458 Win. Mag.

Nosler even lists a .375 RUM load with 96.0 grs. IMR7828 to push a 300 grainer at 3,026 for 6,100 ft/lbs.



However, they are still illegal in many countries for elephant hunting...you need a at least a .400 caliber in most places, so, from the collecting standpoint, nowdays they are not technically elephant guns even if, obviously, they have the power to take them.

Pigoutultra
May 5, 2011, 01:29 AM
If you take into consideration that the .408 Cheytac is based on the .505 Gibbs, it easy to see that there are safari rifles that could possibly chamber that cartridge. Ideally, I would neck up the .408 Cheytac to .416 and use flat nose solids at an incredible velocity of 2800 fps.

Hizzie
May 5, 2011, 06:16 PM
I would go with the 458 Lott since it does have the quality of having more power, but according to Hornady's reloading manual you can supposedly fire 458 Winchester magnum out of it as well essentially giving you two calibers.

God created men. Samuel colt made them equal


Kinda like using .38 Special in a .357 Magnum. The Lott is a Win Mag lengthened by .3" to increase powder capacity and decrease pressure.

BusMaster007
May 5, 2011, 11:10 PM
.458 LOTT only because it would be legal everywhere in Africa and its able to also chamber the .458 WIN.
Hard combo to beat.

Robert
May 5, 2011, 11:18 PM
470NE

Yeah it is more expensive so you will have to hand load but it is just better.

But if you chances of actually going to Africa are like mine, slim and none, just get a 45-70 and work up some heavy loads. It will thump you and anything in North America and do so without breaking the bank.

Pete D.
May 5, 2011, 11:30 PM
I wanted a "fun thumper" some years ago. I bought a Ruger #1 Tropical in .416 Rigby. Big beautiful case. Low pressure operation. It is a handloader's dream.
The Rigby, at least mine. delivers a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps for an honest 5K ft.lbs. ME. If you can't kill it with 5000 ft.lbs.; it can't be killed.
Bullets - how many different kinds do you need anyway?
It can be loaded hotter but there's no point to that.
It can be downloaded to 45-70 levels.

Think Harry Selby, Bob Ruark and "The Horn of the Hunter".
Pete

Pigoutultra
May 6, 2011, 03:36 PM
It can be downloaded to 45-70 levels.

I don't think I can believe that. Due to it having such a large case, downloading to those levels would be unreliable, I wouldn't want to risk a hangfire like that. The .458 Lott can be downloaded to hot .45-70 levels because it has a smaller case capacity. And if I was looking to download a safari cartridge I would go with the .458 Lott because I would be able to cast bullets for it, while the .416 doesn't have that many bullets available.

Loosedhorse
May 6, 2011, 04:04 PM
The choice is clear: .458 Lott. (Or so I am told; I am neither African nor a PH.)

The .416 Rem Mag has developed a bad reputation among African PHs; I refer specifically to Kevin Robertson's book Africa's Most Dangerous (http://www.amazon.com/Africas-Most-Dangerous-Kevin-Robertson/dp/1571572775).

In the high temps there, they have seen repeated instances of the .416 RM (presumably due to its high operating pressure, 65k psi max) result in frozen bolts that had to be hammered open with a boot--or a brick! (This info is old--2007--and it may be that there is less of a problem with newer commercial ammo.) Same author, in Sports Afield (http://www.sportsafield.com/content/416-ruger-africa):Ballistically, the .416 Ruger is no different than the .416 Rigby or .416 Remington...The Remington version uses a smaller case to get the same results which results in higher chamber pressures. In hellish hot conditions, rifles with weak extractors have had extraction/ejection problems.

The .458 Lott has, in contrast, a stellar reputation, even though its SAAMI max is just a bit lower (62k psi). It shoots .458 Win Mag in a pinch. It has been said that the .458 Lott is the commonest dangerous game PH rifle in Africa--but only because it is much more affordable than a .470 NE double! A good .458 Lott reference here (http://www.calpappas.com/id11.html).

Perhaps none of this matters if you're not hunting dangerous game in Africa. But I went through this exact thought process a few years ago, and bought a .458 Lott. I've wrung it out, and I still have it.
It can be downloaded to 45-70 levels.I don't think I can believe that.A filler, like dacron fluff, can be used to fill the empty space, and keep powder next to primer. But some would say down-loading the Lott, well, it's a sin! :evil:

Pigoutultra
May 7, 2011, 12:02 AM
Yeah I forgot to mention that since I would be buying a safari magnum rifle, downloading isn't really the priority.

Scipio Africanus
May 7, 2011, 01:38 AM
I own a CZ 550 Safari in .458 Lott. The rifle is very accurate and reliable. If versatility is what you are looking for, the Lott is your cartridge.
If you want to shoot cheap cast bullets at low velocity; your choices are myriad, you will have tons of fun, and be a better shot for it.
If you want a relatively flat shooter for light game, load 325 gr Hornady FTX bullets @ 2700+ fps and hit things very hard out to 300 yds.
If you want a little more bullet for medium game, load any of the fine 350 gr bullets also to 2700 fps.
If you desire to have a light practice load, which you will because the Lott does recoil when loaded to maximum, load 400gr Remington softs @ 45-70 velocities and have fun all day. This still gives you a very powerful round.
If you want to hunt big bovines or pachyderms, put a 500 gr @ 2300 fps or a 550 @ 2100 and have at it.
Someone alluded to this earlier, but Terry Wieland said in his book "Dangerous Game Rifles"; "If I could have one rifle it would be a .458 Lott, there is nothing you could not hunt with it." A strong endoresment from a man who knows.

Loosedhorse
May 7, 2011, 01:24 PM
The .375 H&H isn't really a compromise
How could a legend ever be a compromise? The sayings about that cartridge are uncountable, my two favorite being: "It's right for all African game and ideal for most;" and "One planet, one rifle."

Still, it is not a thick-skinned dangerous game stopper; the .416s are probably the minimums there, and higher is better if you can.
a 550 @ 2100 and have at itI have tried to do that with the Lott and failed. But I've seen ammo makers claim it, and it sure could be. Personally, I think I'd need to move up to .450 Rigby cartridge size to make that. And now you've gotten into all sorts of new issues (expense, larger bolt-face, wider cartridge).

Hizzie
May 7, 2011, 06:27 PM
I don't think I can believe that. Due to it having such a large case, downloading to those levels would be unreliable, I wouldn't want to risk a hangfire like that. The .458 Lott can be downloaded to hot .45-70 levels because it has a smaller case capacity. And if I was looking to download a safari cartridge I would go with the .458 Lott because I would be able to cast bullets for it, while the .416 doesn't have that many bullets available.
Accurate 5744 or Trail Boss. You can find loading data to use lead bullets in 458 Lott at reduced velocity for both powders.

Maverick223
May 7, 2011, 08:00 PM
The .375 H&H isn't really a compromise, it is the minimum and is most effective against plains game. The .416 Remington is the compromise between the .375 and the .458 Lott. Being good for both plains and dangerous game but not excellent for either.While it isn't considered a proper "stopping rifle", the .375H&H is perfectly suitable for any of the large game in Africa save for perhaps Elephant. It isn't a powder-puff by any stretch and affords you the ability to load it for much smaller game (including deer) with reduced charges, medium game at moderately long range using full charges and a ballistic tip bullet, large dangerous game (such as Kodiak) with a heavy soft point, and very large dangerous game with a heavy solid. IMO it is hands down the most versatile proper safari cartridge...with the 9.3x64mmBrenneke being a close runner-up. Personally I see no reason to go any larger unless Elephant is on the menu, in which case I figure I can purchase a rifle expressly for that purpose. OTOH if I did want a big bore "stopping rifle", and had to have it in a bolt gun, the .458Lott would be my choice; though a SxS double chambered for the .500NE or .470NE was purpose built for the task.

I kind of wonder why their rifles aren't as popular as they should be since they seem to have equal quality of the Winchester 70, Remington 700 and Ruger 77 lines.I have handled several BRNO/CZ-550 Safari and found them to be too large, bulky, and heavy for my taste. They are also less refined and smooth than a good Winchester M-70 (CRF model of course) or a commercial Mauser (what I ultimately went with and adore). The cavernous magazine capacity is nice, but unnecessary and at the expense of size and weight. Also, they are not available (with the exception of the much more costly Safari Classics) with a barrel band sling swivel...so the stud protrudes from the forearm...at just the right place to bite you in the hand.

:)

Loosedhorse
May 8, 2011, 08:54 AM
save for perhaps Elephant.It's fine for elephant (if you're a client). It's taken a lot of elephant. W.D.M. Bell took over 1000 elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57mm), and a few hundred with smaller calibers. .375's "enough gun," though not ideal. found them to be too large, bulky, and heavy for my taste.But a good price!

Took what I saved and had it glass-bedded, action smoothed, barrel shortened (it's much handier now), and a few more improvements...and still came out way ahead of even the lower-priced custom shops.

Speaking of which...if you have the dough, Ed Brown (http://www.edbrown.com/express.htm). Now, he'll make a Lott for you!

Maverick223
May 8, 2011, 03:12 PM
It's fine for elephant (if you're a client). It's taken a lot of elephant. W.D.M. Bell took over 1000 elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57mm), and a few hundeed with smaller calibers. .375's "enough gun," though not ideal.It most certainly will take an elephant (loaded properly), and didn't mean the statement to sound as if it wouldn't...it just wouldn't be my first choice for that express purpose.

But a good price!I purchased a Whitworth Express Mauser (chambered for .375H&H but .458s, amongst others, were made as well) not long ago and while I figure it was a fair price, I don't believe it was a steal...it was priced very nearly (or perhaps slightly less) than a new CZ 550 Safari (not one of the semi-custom "Classics"). I can't imagine a better feeling/shooting express rifle. The Winchester M-70 Safari is about the same price as well. That isn't to say that the CZ is a bad rifle...it isn't (it has the main features requisite in a good DG rifle), I just feel that there are better ones for the money.

:)

Loosedhorse
May 8, 2011, 03:55 PM
I see your point. One score for the CZ (for DG), which I liked, was the 5-shot mag capacity, instead of 3. Explains some of the bulky feel--but bulkiness may be different for different people, depending on their stature and other factors.

And no, I have never needed the 5 shots, so just a theoretical advantage. But sometimes theoretical advantages have their place.

Maverick223
May 8, 2011, 06:29 PM
Explains some of the bulky feel--but bulkiness may be different for different people, depending on their stature and other factors.Yep, it's all up to the rifleman (which is why it's important to handle and preferably shoot the rifle before hand, particularly one with a fair amount of recoil). Furthermore I'll not knock the CZ 550 for reliability, they excell in that respect...most of my problems with it are rather nit picky (swivel stud, stock shape, size/weight, rough action, et cetera) and fairly easily fixed.

:)

45crittergitter
May 16, 2011, 09:26 PM
Here is an interesting quote addressing the matter: If you drive a high-quality, [.416] 400-grain bullet at 2350 fps, it is very deadly. We do not need to argue about the critter involved. It stops charging bull elephants, knocks the lights out of lions, swats bears and big bull elk and can do a remarkably fine job on deer-sized game. Is one case better than the other? Ballistically no, but practically, yes - the Remington. Remington's .416 is probably the most practical and perhaps the best medium-heavy rifle made. In the end, you cannot go wrong, unless you get confused and buy a 45 caliber rifle instead. - Ross Seyfried

Maverick223
May 16, 2011, 10:04 PM
Eh, everyone has their favorite. Sorry Ross, but there is absolutely nothing that the .416Rem. can do that the .458Lott (or a dozen others) can't. There wouldn't have been a Remington advertisement, right beside that particular excerpt, would there? ;)

DC Plumber
May 16, 2011, 11:08 PM
I too fantasized about going to Africa and hunting something that could also kill me. Knowing I'd never really be able to afford it, I still bought an elephant gun. I found a used Ruger #1 Tropical in 458winmag for $500. A very kind gun dealer in Texas had in for sale, and included shipping as well. When I told him where I lived, he asked, "what in the h____ did I need a 458winmag for, there aren't any elephants in _______" I handload so I actually shoot it quite a bit. I used for deer hunting one year, just to see if I could be productive with the beast. I hit a nice spike buck square in the ribs at 65 yards. Not an ounce of meat ruined.

Long story short, get a big bore rifle. It's fun. But make sure you know what you're getting. I don't think there is a huge market for used big bore rifles and you might be sitting on it for a while. And yes, the .458 Lott gets my vote between the two calibers.

A freakin' lion
November 7, 2011, 12:38 AM
nice discussion! personally I prefer the 375 h&h. I can handle the recoil and hit whatever I aim at. Nice capacity. The PH likely would carry a stopper rifle if needed anyway. I think a rigby with its history and prestige and enormous case is impressive. Or consider a .450 Rigby. The Lott should be one of the more economic choices.

A freakin' lion
November 7, 2011, 03:47 AM
I've thought about this all night at work and think maybe the caliber is secondary in the decision. Maybe first find the "right" rifle. Maybe one that is well used and looks like it has hunted the dark continent? Of course it would have to be a classic African caliber. A classic Rigby or Westley Richards or even some lesser known maker with British proofs? Or even a Bubba the decent gunsmith Mauser conversion with the right bells and whistles that has character? I think that's what I would look for in a dream of Africa rifle. Don't forget getting the khakis and pith helmet, lol, to help with the illusion. Sounds absolutely perfect for a memorable gun club Turkey Shoot. Oh, and an ammo belt to show off all that gleaming brass!

Hizzie
November 7, 2011, 12:07 PM
I've thought about this all night at work and think maybe the caliber is secondary in the decision. Maybe first find the "right" rifle. Maybe one that is well used and looks like it has hunted the dark continent? Of course it would have to be a classic African caliber. A classic Rigby or Westley Richards or even some lesser known maker with British proofs? Or even a Bubba the decent gunsmith Mauser conversion with the right bells and whistles that has character? I think that's what I would look for in a dream of Africa rifle. Don't forget getting the khakis and pith helmet, lol, to help with the illusion. Sounds absolutely perfect for a memorable gun club Turkey Shoot. Oh, and an ammo belt to show off all that gleaming brass!
Used big bore rifles show up on a regular basis on the various message boards, GB, GA and GI. Elite Deal Seeker is another good search tool. If you want that "African" look and feel then the Interarms Whitworth/Mark X rifles are a good bargain. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=614570 THe CZ550 Safari Classic and Winchester M70 Safari Express are good options that are more affordable. The discontinued Ruger Safari Magnum and Kimber Caprivi are the next step up the price ladder. At least in "tradional" calibers. The Ruger Hawkeye's in 375R and 416R are rather affordable if you can accept not having H&H, Rigby or W-R as the headstamp on your brass.

Maverick223
November 7, 2011, 04:10 PM
I agree. I looked quite a bit for a old CRF M-70 Express with .375H&H chambering and bbl band swivel before deciding on my Whitworth Express and couldn't be happier. Had a custom sling made to hold a few extra cartridges of both the controlled expansion and stopping variety. The rifle fits me like a glove and has proven to be a pretty fair shooter to boot. Next up is a SxS .470NE or .500NE, but that'll probably have to wait a bit.

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Maverick223_album/IMG_6242.jpg

:)

rcmodel
November 7, 2011, 04:47 PM
I don't think that the .45-70 is suitable for everything.Shoot a box of Buffalo Bore heavy solids in a 7 pound Marlin lever-gun and get back to us.

rc

Ole Humpback
November 7, 2011, 09:54 PM
Shoot a box of Buffalo Bore heavy solids in a 7 pound Marlin lever-gun and get back to us.

Agreed. The weak point for the 45-70 isn't the case (to a point, all things will blow up given enough pressure), its the action of the gun. The 45-70 can be loaded with some very stout loads. Buffalo Bore has a 45-70 430gr FN @ 1925fps/3537ft/lbs that will work in any modern built action out there. That round is just under what most places in Afica now consider to be the bare minimum for DG hunting. Heck, they now have a 30-30 round shooting a 190gr bullet at 2400fps with 2600ft/lbs energy. Give it a few years and these old black-powder reload rounds will be on par with the modern rounds.

If I had to choose a 416, it'd either be a Rigby or Weatherby. The Rem Mag suffers the same problem as the Win Mag, they pack the cartridge to the max and there's no room for error.

Maverick223
November 7, 2011, 10:36 PM
Unlike the .45-70Govt., the .30-30WCF was never a BP cartridge, in fact it was the first well accepted cartridge designed for the then-new nitrocellulose propellant
(other smokeless propellants were used previously, with various degrees of success and longevity, most notably cordite in the .303Brit.).

:)

Hizzie
November 8, 2011, 01:23 AM
Shoot a box of Buffalo Bore heavy solids in a 7 pound Marlin lever-gun and get back to us.

rc
What exactly do felt recoil and on-taget performance have to do with each other? Using your logic the more a gun "kicks" the more effective it is on game?

Maple_City_Woodsman
November 8, 2011, 08:27 AM
You can load .416 for cheaper than the 458 - you will pay about $2 per round on your first loading, using all new components. Subsequent loadings will cost you about $1.

Hizzie
November 8, 2011, 11:11 AM
You can load .416 for cheaper than the 458 - you will pay about $2 per round on your first loading, using all new components. Subsequent loadings will cost you about $1.
Really? I buy commercially loaded 458WM for $2/round. The reloader has to be able to do it cheaper. Especially since there a many more options for .458 dia bullets, both jacketed and lead, than for .416.

Pete D.
November 8, 2011, 06:18 PM
Just got back to this thread - getting oldish now, it is.
But...two points.
About not believing that the .416 Rigby can be downloaded to 45-70 levels....another poster mentioned using 5744. Yep, that is the stuff...bulky, not position sensitive. It works just fine behind a 350 grain linotype bullet.
I have been loading them for years. Never a hangfire.

About costs - once you have the brass, costs for the .416 Rigby are about one dollar per round.....at least that is what it used to be when I stocked up on components some time ago.
Nowadays....it is possible to spend more than $2 just for the bullet. But...it is also possible to spend 80 cents. Add 35 cents for powder and primer and you are at $1.15 per or $23 a box.
And buying factory .458 WM for $2.00 a round....where? What brand sells for $40 a box? A quick check online and the cheapest that I could find was $3.65 a round (a tad more in fact and that was before shipping).
Pete

Flatbush Harry
November 8, 2011, 07:56 PM
With no plans to go to Africa and hunt elephant/rhino/hippo, I'd be thinking of a .375 H&H...more comfortable to shoot, useful for bear or moose here in the states and just fine for Alaskan hunting as well.

If you like thumpers, you might go for a Winchester Mod. 70 Safari in .458 Win and leave open the option of a rechamber to a .458 Lott. You'll probably end up practicing with .458 Win in a .458 Lott anyway.

My $0.02...and worth what you paid for it.

FH

Flatbush Harry
November 8, 2011, 08:09 PM
Gus McCrae made a good suggestion with the .45-70. I saw a Ruger No. 1 in .45-70 on Saturday and almost went that route, having recently seen a beautiful Farquaharson in 470 NE priced at a mere $40,000 compared to the Ruger at $850. The .45-70 is fun to shoot and would be a nice rifle for most North American Hunting. It also can use inexpensive cast bullets and, being straight-walled and low pressure, allows many re-uses of brass.

Damn, I'm gonna talk my self into going back for the .45-70 Ruger.

LOL,

FH

Hizzie
November 8, 2011, 08:56 PM
Gus McCrae made a good suggestion with the .45-70. I saw a Ruger No. 1 in .45-70 on Saturday and almost went that route, having recently seen a beautiful Farquaharson in 470 NE priced at a mere $40,000 compared to the Ruger at $850. The .45-70 is fun to shoot and would be a nice rifle for most North American Hunting. It also can use inexpensive cast bullets and, being straight-walled and low pressure, allows many re-uses of brass.

Damn, I'm gonna talk my self into going back for the .45-70 Ruger.

LOL,

FH
Ruger does make a Craig Boddington Edition .450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" and 450-400 3".

Forgot to add $2/round 458WM Ammo links:

http://store.thehuntingshack.com/hsm458winchestermagnum350grflatpoint.aspx
http://www.wisconsincartridge.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=98

Maple_City_Woodsman
November 8, 2011, 10:26 PM
Really? I buy commercially loaded 458WM for $2/round. The reloader has to be able to do it cheaper. Especially since there a many more options for .458 dia bullets, both jacketed and lead, than for .416.

That is what it priced out to be last time I looked, using new high end components. Of course the cost of all subsequent loadings is cut in half - the new brass is literally 1/2 the cost of the total round.

The advantage of the 416 Remington is the comparatively inexpensive Remington brand brass.

The bulk of the remaining 1/2 of the cost is the bullet - which we all know are only going up in cost.

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