Concealed carry where it's not permitted


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firemanstrickland
May 7, 2011, 01:09 AM
Ok, here is probly a dumb question.

Hypothetical situation:

You are a concealed weapons permit holder. You walk in to Bob's uh....shovel store, to get yourself a new shovel....(idk, just go with it)...and the front door is posted no concealed weapons, but either A: you don't see it or B: you ignore it. You walk in and you pick yourself out a new shovel and a man comes in, holds up the store with a gun and threatens your life, you draw, dispatch the threat, and call the police. What happens then? what kind of trouble do you get in? or what happens if you walk past the sign and nothing happens? You bend down to pick up you shovel and your side arm is exposed and the store manager calls the cops on you, What happens? do you get arrested? Do they take your permit? What happens?

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IlikeSA
May 7, 2011, 01:20 AM
It depends on the state. Some states have laws that back the property owners signs, others don't. Some have certain provisions the signs have to meet.

Lets say though, the sign carries the weight of the law. I could see you getting let go in the first situation, depending on the DA and officers responding, and the second...you suffering the penalty.

Carter
May 7, 2011, 01:20 AM
While I don't know about using your weapon, I believe in NC your first concealed carry offense is an infraction, the second is a misdemeanor. However, I think they revoke your CCW if you get caught breaking the rules. Not quite sure, and that'd be up to the sheriff/court.

A lot of what you just asked depends highly on the officer who responds, the DA who gets the case, and how good of a lawyer you get.

milq
May 7, 2011, 01:27 AM
As mentioned, depends on the state. My understanding of IN law is that it is merely a trespassing violation and they ask you to leave, if you refuse to leave you can then be arrested for trespass....but IANAL and I'm also not an IN resident.

firemanstrickland
May 7, 2011, 01:45 AM
roger that, im in south carolina

MOBoyNoMo
May 7, 2011, 01:49 AM
Along the same lines as your question:

How about the fella that had a firearm on him at Yellowstone Park? This was after they changed the law saying you can carry as long as you aint loaded (not sure how much sense that makes). Guy was attacked by a bear, shot him, survived, and then got in trouble.

9MMare
May 7, 2011, 03:40 AM
Along the same lines as your question:

How about the fella that had a firearm on him at Yellowstone Park? This was after they changed the law saying you can carry as long as you aint loaded (not sure how much sense that makes). Guy was attacked by a bear, shot him, survived, and then got in trouble.

I hadnt heard about that....do you have a link? Do you remember the outlet that published the news story?

PlateStacker
May 7, 2011, 04:46 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-cQ5Ki1NTJc/TU2wW59Hq1I/AAAAAAAABAQ/zCTzycuREDE/s320/OhNoNotAgain.gif

Loosedhorse
May 7, 2011, 08:46 AM
Know your state laws.

MachIVshooter
May 7, 2011, 08:50 AM
You do realize there's a 9 page thread going on this topic already, right?

Whiskey11
May 7, 2011, 09:21 AM
Well I know what happens when you are NOT a concealed carrier and you are carrying concealed and this happens... happened here in Omaha, guy was fined 50$ for carrying concealed without a permit after he put one dirtbag in the ground and the other in the hospital. There was a group of citizens in Omaha around where this happened that was willing to pay for any court fees, they paid his 50$ fine for him.

I know in Omaha there are signs everywhere about "Firearm free zones" (ironically I work in one, with a firearm....) and some say "No Concealed Firearms" and some just say "No Firearms." I'm not sure exactly what the law states pertaining to the lettering for the signs, but if I was a green CCWer, I'd read "No Concealed" to mean "No Concealed, open is fine" since Nebraska is an open carry state.

ball3006
May 7, 2011, 09:57 AM
In Texas, it has to be the proper sign. Otherwise a CHL person can ignore it. However, if the owner of the premises tells you to leave, you must leave. The credit union that I belong to has a gun owner keep out sign but it is not the proper sign, so I ignore it. Normally, I do not do business with companies that have a gun owner sign keep out.

Years ago when Bass Pro opened their new store nearby, they had a gun owner keep out sign on the door. Every time I would go in there I would tell the greeter that I would love to buy lots of stuff from your store but with the gun owner keep out sign on the door, I refuse to purchase anything. It must have happened alot because after about 6 months the sign was gone. I mentioned it to the greeter and he said alot of people felt the same way you do. Funny, they sell guns and had an indoor shooting range in the store.....chris3

Mt Shooter
May 7, 2011, 10:10 AM
At least here anyway:”No Firearm” signs in Montana have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are ask to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.

Art Eatman
May 7, 2011, 10:19 AM
I'm not seeing much, here, in the way of useful answers.

First: If self-defense with deadly force is justified, that would be a separate matter from the carrying in violation of the signage.

"I couldn't see it and didn't see it," can be a defense against a charge of trespass, if the sign was not visible as you entered.

If you entered while carrying and just ignored the sign, the state law about trespass is the control--whether or not you had occasion to use deadly force. Since this body of law varies all over the place, no other state's laws provide other than anecdotal stories which are no help to you.

You're going to have to read your state laws insofar as possible penalties. These are commonly online at the state website, or a state agency's website.

Zonie
May 7, 2011, 12:08 PM
Whats that phrase, something about tried by twelve rather than carried by six?

IANAL and YMMV but knowingly breaking the law is bad, but so is getting shot because you couldn't legally defend yourself.

Loosedhorse
May 7, 2011, 12:29 PM
I'm not seeing much, here, in the way of useful answers.
Do you mean, Art, there's not much useful to say until we know the controlling state laws? If so, then I agree.

His scene changes completely (IMHO) if he's violated the law by entering; the credibility of his claim of self-defense will hinge on his perceived intentions, and a law-abiding citizen is veiwed differently (by DAs and juries) than a guy trespassing while carrying a deadly weapon illegaly--a guy just looking for trouble. :uhoh:

Other state laws (stand your ground vs. duty to retreat) come into play, too.

Magoo
May 7, 2011, 02:00 PM
From SLED's site (penalties you asked specifically about in bold):

SECTION 23-31-220. Right to allow or permit concealed weapons upon premises; signs.

Nothing contained in this article shall in any way be construed to limit, diminish, or otherwise infringe upon:

(1) the right of a public or private employer to prohibit a person who is licensed under this article from carrying a concealable weapon upon the premises of the business or work place or while using any machinery, vehicle, or equipment owned or operated by the business;

(2) the right of a private property owner or person in legal possession or control to allow or prohibit the carrying of a concealable weapon upon his premises.

The posting by the employer, owner, or person in legal possession or control of a sign stating “No Concealable Weapons Allowed” shall constitute notice to a person holding a permit issued pursuant to this article that the employer, owner, or person in legal possession or control requests that concealable weapons not be brought upon the premises or into the work place. A person who brings a concealable weapon onto the premises or work place in violation of the provisions of this paragraph may be charged with a violation of Section 16-11-620. In addition to the penalties provided in Section 16-11-620, a person convicted of a second or subsequent violation of the provisions of this paragraph must have his permit revoked for a period of one year. The prohibition contained in this section does not apply to persons specified in Section 16-23-20, item (1).

EddieNFL
May 7, 2011, 05:09 PM
I'm not seeing much, here, in the way of useful answers.

It's an internet forum.

Mt Shooter
May 7, 2011, 07:04 PM
How about the fella that had a firearm on him at Yellowstone Park? This was after they changed the law saying you can carry as long as you aint loaded (not sure how much sense that makes). Guy was attacked by a bear, shot him, survived, and then got in trouble.

Source?

gym
May 7, 2011, 09:03 PM
I'm drowning in these posts we have the same one in 2 spots now, can you at least look a the the on that says concealed means concealed , please. If we do another one i may become a statistic.

teumessian_fox
May 7, 2011, 09:34 PM
In my state such signs carry no legal weight unless the establishment is a government controlled entity for the purpose of transacting business.

An example is our local airport. They had such signs, but all they could do was ask you to leave if they discovered you were carrying. Then the TSA fools took over. Now it's a crime.

Any other such establishment, like a hospital for example, can merely ask you to leave. If you refuse, you're guilty of trespassing.

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