Smallest 9mm?


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Mad Jack McMad
May 7, 2011, 07:32 AM
Which is the smallest 9x19mm Parabellum pistol?

I mean, there must be more 9mm "mouseguns" than those at this chart http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf (9mm on page 2), and the two projects the Boberg XR9S and the Microtech Archangel, right?

The SCCY (Industries) CPX-1 was formerly known as the SKYY (Industries) CPX-1

Perhaps there are some more projects or unknown 9mm mouseguns?

Here is a ranked list that i made, only subcompact 9mm Parabellum guns:
(Smallest to highest length/height/width/weight)

Overall length:
1. Boberg XR9S (5.1")*
2. Rohrbaugh R9/R9S (5.2")
3. Kimber Solo (5.5")
3. SIG Sauer P290 (5.5")
4. Kahr PM9 & CM9 (5.6")
4. Kahr MK9 (5.6")
4. Kel-Tec P-11 (5.6")
4. Diamondback DB9 (5.6")*
5. SCCY CPX-1 (5.7")
6. Kel-Tec PF9 (5.85")
7. Ruger LC9 (6.0")*
8. Cobra Patriot 9 (6.0")*
8. Taurus PT709TI (6.0")*
9. Taurus PT111PTI (6.125")*
10. Springfield Armory XD Sub-Compact (6.25")*
11. Glock 26 (6.29")*
12. Walther PPS (6.34")*
13. STI LS (7.0")*

Height:
1. Kimber Solo (3.9")
2. SCCY CPX-1 (4.0")
2. Diamondback DB9 (4.0")*
3. SIG Sauer P290 (4.08")
4. Rohrbaugh R9/R9S (4.1")
5. Glock 26 (4.17")*
6. Boberg XR9S (4.2")*
7. Kahr PM9 & CM9 (4.3")
7. Kahr MK9 (4.3")
7. Kel-Tec P-11 (4.3")
7. Kel-Tec PF9 (4.3")
8. Cobra Patriot 9 (4.4")*
8. STI LS (4.4")*
9. Walther PPS (4.41")*
10. Ruger LC9 (4.5")*
10. Taurus PT709TI (4.5")*
11. Springfield Armory XD Sub-Compact (4.75")*
12. Taurus PT111PTI (5.02")*

Width:
1. STI LS (.765" Across Steel, 1.06" Across Grips)*
2. Diamondback DB9 (0.80")*
3. Kel-Tec PF9 (0.88")
4. Ruger LC9 (0.90")*
5. Rohrbaugh R9/R9S (0.91")
5. Walther PPS (0.91")*
6. Boberg XR9S (0.95")*
7. SCCY CPX-1 (1.0")
7. Cobra Patriot 9 (1.0")*
8. Taurus PT709TI (1.08")*
9. SIG Sauer P290 (1.10")
9. Kahr PM9 & CM9 (1.10")
9. Kahr MK9 (1.10")
9. Kel-Tec P-11 (1.10")
10. Glock 26 (1.18")*
11. Kimber Solo (1.2")
12. Taurus PT111PTI (1.25")*
12. Springfield Armory XD Sub-Compact (1.25")*

Weight empty:
(Empty Weights include an empty magazine, if unconfirmed *)
1. Diamondback DB9 (11.0 oz.)**
2. Kel-Tec PF9 (14.7 oz.)
3. Rohrbaugh R9/R9S (15.1 oz.)
4. Kel-Tec P-11 (15.6 oz.)
5. Kahr PM9 & CM9 (15.9 oz.)
6. Taurus PT111PTI (16 oz.)**
7. SCCY CPX-1 (17 oz.)
7. Taurus PT709TI (17 oz.)**
8. Ruger LC9 (17.10 oz.)**
9. Kimber Solo (17.2 oz.)
10. Boberg XR9S (17.5 oz.)**
11. Cobra Patriot 9 (18 oz.)**
12. Glock 26 (19.75 oz.)**
13. Walther PPS (21.28 oz.)**
14. SIG Sauer P290 (21.7 oz.)
15. Kahr MK9 (24.0 oz.)
16. Springfield Armory XD Sub-Compact (26 oz.)**
17. STI LS (28.0. oz.)**

* = Isn't in the mousegun chart. Dimensions and weight from manufacturer. Which means that if it isn't in the chart and weight with/without magazine is unconfirmed two * should appear behind the (?.?"/oz.).

As i don't know the quality or the reliability of the SCCY CPX-1, id believe it is the best generally when considering its price($340) and capacity(10+1 rounds). Its only 0.1" longer then the P-11(same capacity as the SCCY CPX-1) and the higher weight reduces felt recoil and makes follow up shots easier.

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MachIVshooter
May 7, 2011, 09:09 AM
The SCCY would be my absolute last choice on that list by no small margin.

If price is your main concern, both the Kel-Tec PF9 and P-11 (which the SCCY copied) can be had under $300 in most places. They're well made and backed with an unconditional lifetime warranty that the company truly stands behind.

kbbailey
May 7, 2011, 09:22 AM
I don't own a centerfire auto and I have no business posting here except to say that when my buddy and I got our cc permits, he chose a KT P-11 as his carry gun. It was cheap to buy and shoots great....crappy trigger and all. We have put box after box full of all sorts of ammo through it without a hitch.

Mad Jack McMad
May 7, 2011, 09:27 AM
Well, for me the price is the least concern when buying a weapon. I merely stated that the SCCY is a cheap, small gun with 10+1 rounds in it. But in my opinion it is still too big. The Kel-Tec PF9 is very good when it comes to width, weight and price, but has a very bad(of the firearms i listed) length and height. It is simply too long and too high according to me.

snooperman
May 7, 2011, 09:50 AM
the reliability is not too good. I have the Keltec PF9 and for $300 it is hard to beat. It shoots everything I put in it and fits good in large pockets. And, a life time warranty. It ain't pretty but it gets the job done.

KennyFSU
May 7, 2011, 09:55 AM
Pf9. Winning!

snooperman
May 7, 2011, 09:58 AM
the Rohrbaugh may be YOUR gun. It is a beautiful gun . I would like a smaller gun than the Keltec but changing springs in the Rohrbaugh every 200 rounds turned me off, even though I can afford it.

Hunter2678
May 7, 2011, 10:16 AM
FYI, your dimensions on the PM9/MK9 are a little off (bigger)

The width on the PM9 is .90 inches

The height is 4 inches.

Overall length is 4.52 on the PM9 & 4.3 on the MK9

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-MK9.asp

wow6599
May 7, 2011, 10:28 AM
The height and length you have listed for the PM9/CM9 is wrong......it's 4.0" H and 5.42" L
Having owned both the P-11 and PM9, I can say with 100% certainty that the Kel-Tec feels a lot bigger than the Kahr.
Maybe it's 4.3" with the extended mag?

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

wow6599
May 7, 2011, 10:32 AM
Sorry for a post that mirrors yours Hunter, I was getting the facts from Kahr's site and didn't know you had posted already.
The width is a little tricky with the PM9 though........the slide is .90 W, but the gun is actually 1.10" W.

Hunter2678
May 7, 2011, 10:35 AM
NP wow..devil is in the details...:evil:

Mad Jack McMad
May 7, 2011, 12:44 PM
snooperman, that was one of the things that turned me off also. The second one was a rumor that said it takes like 15 months or so to get a brand new Rohrbaugh R9/R9S.

snooperman
May 7, 2011, 03:39 PM
It is about the size of the Rohrbaugh but with a bigger grip. A lot of shooters are anxiously waiting for it. I would prefer to hold judgement until it has a proven record in the hands of shooters.

Remo223
May 7, 2011, 03:50 PM
width is the most important measurement, followed by weight, imo.

btw, you should add an STI LS to your list.

Big_John1961
May 7, 2011, 04:10 PM
snooperman, that was one of the things that turned me off also. The second one was a rumor that said it takes like 15 months or so to get a brand new Rohrbaugh R9/R9s
You can get one within three weeks, sometimes less. As for the spring, it's not a range gun, nor is it meant to be. But, it comes with one extra spring, and replacements are inexpensive.

Claude Clay
May 7, 2011, 04:35 PM
im mid way down the list for the Boberg XR9-S. at 5.1L x 4.2H x .95 W and 17oz...if its ever made, id sure like to have one. for many years the K-T p11 has served well and is still in the carry rotation. since its last trip to the factory it now shoots easy 2" groups at 25'.

19-3Ben
May 7, 2011, 04:57 PM
One thing that never fails to impress me, is just how little some of those numbers mean.

I've found that the shape of the gun, the texture of the material, etc... matter just as much as the "on paper" size.

Mad Jack McMad
May 7, 2011, 05:46 PM
List updated, one of the newly included pistols are the STI LS.

gbelleh
May 7, 2011, 06:33 PM
The Kahr is only 1.1" at the slide release lever, a very small area overall. I don't even notice the slide stop while carrying. All the important parts (for concealment) are .90".

psyshack
May 8, 2011, 05:18 PM
I purchased the PF-9. Well two of them.

Safetychain
May 8, 2011, 09:27 PM
Do a search for "Bobo's". He put (and is still maintaining) a great comparison listing: Pics, dimensions, finishes available, weight, a method of comparing the guns to each other, and SMRP's of all mouse guns. I still hunt his chart down once a month to check out new entries to the market.

TennJed
May 8, 2011, 11:08 PM
don't forget that you must hold on to the gun after the trigger is pulled. Recoil does need some consideration.

I have a PF9 (love it). Its recoil is definitely manageable but stout (more than my 2.25" 357 SP101). A 100-200 rounds at a time is all I want to do. Sounds like a lot but if we want this to be the gun we trust our life with, we need to practice, practice, practice.

I think the pf9 is perfect. If it is too big for you to conceal you might want to get a pocket knife. I have no trouble with a IWB holster or big pockets.

If it got any smaller it might be too small for me. If I wanted/needed smaller I would just look at a .380

JR956678
May 9, 2011, 08:43 AM
Mad Jack you may want to update your data with regard to the Rohrbaugh:

It doesn't weigh 15.1 oz with an empty magazine. Claimed weight without a magazine is 13.5 oz and I can confirm this (I weighed mine). With an empty magazine the weight is actually 14 oz.

The height of 4.1" is also a little off. Mine is 4.0" from the very top of the rear sight to the very bottom of the magazine release. If mine did not have the additional height of the rear sights (it's available either way) it would be 3.96" (including the heel magazine release).

The width is about right, though on a Rohrbaugh the widest part of the firearm is through the grips - the slide itself is narrower.

ak-kev
May 9, 2011, 04:52 PM
Here is a very cool chart comparing some of these models. The Rohrbaugh seems to be the smallest in all categories, then the Kahr PM9 beats the Solo in 3 out of 4 categories, and so on down the list. Very interesting.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/118934-comparison-charts-kimber-solo-vs.html

Remo223
May 10, 2011, 11:26 AM
Looks like Diamondback wins.

SwampWolf
May 10, 2011, 03:20 PM
One thing that never fails to impress me, is just how little some of those numbers mean.

As you explained, in some ways what you say is true-except when it comes to weight. Textures and shapes are intriguing subjectives but how much (or how little) a gun weighs will never deceive you. Every extra ounce will make its portly presence known.
To me, a handgun being carried in a holster of almost any type will mitigate the need for an ultra light-weight gun. It's when I plan on carrying a handgun in a pocket that as little weight as possible and still be practical becomes an asset I insist on. Imo, a true pocket pistol, regardless of caliber, should not weigh much over eleven ounces or so-and less, within reason, is better.

JustinJ
May 10, 2011, 03:26 PM
I have a PF9 and LC9 and would definitely go with the LC9. My keltek runs fine with the right ammo but so far my LC9 runs with any ammo. I just posted a review with some comparison details. I almost picked up a Khar but have heard mixed things.

DoomGoober
May 10, 2011, 07:54 PM
Diamondback may win in size/weight but:
1) Their DB380 had a lot of little kinks (mostly worked out)
2) DB is being sued for multiple patent infringements by Kahr (http://gunsforsale.com/ghg/2011/04/11/kahr-sues-diamondback/)

Too bad, I kind of like Diamondback's approach -- super light, striker fired, operates a bit like a Glock. I've carried a DB380 concealed and I easily forgot I had it.

snooperman
May 11, 2011, 09:54 AM
A friend had one about a year ago and I liked it but he got rid of it because he had to send it back twice because the trigger mechanism kept breaking. I have been thinking about getting one but reliability is a concern.

ky40601
May 12, 2011, 01:25 AM
Colt Pocket Nine 9 (1999)
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff159/ky40601/Guns/xaColtPocketNine9MM1999SNNP04592c.jpg

John_galt
May 25, 2011, 09:13 PM
I have a DB 380 and a LC9. Like both of them. The DB380 is an every day carry in my pocket and easiest gun to carry I own, the LC9 just a little too big for pocket carry but still great gun.

I really want to get a DB9. I cannot find if they are actually out there yet. Anyone?

chihuahuatn
May 26, 2011, 01:33 AM
The Boberg XR9S and Diamondback DB9 measurements are NOT confirmed; enough said.

bcp280z
May 26, 2011, 01:43 AM
Just to be a smartass, there are 9mm derringers, not much utility though

mes228
May 26, 2011, 08:20 AM
Two PF 9's, both just marvelous pistols I'd recommend to anyone. The accuracy is amazing. Reliability 100% (Federal 115 gr. HP is all I shoot). Even the sights are quite good. Recoil is not a real problem and the trigger is long but consistent and easily adjusted to.

cassaro
May 26, 2011, 12:03 PM
I have been thinking about buying a Kahr PM9 for quite some time now and just found this thread as well as the compairison charts. After reading all of your comments I believe I would be much better off with the PF9 as it fits my specific requirements much better.

Thanks!

Delford
May 26, 2011, 12:48 PM
Kahr makes a very high quality product but so does Sig Sauer. The new P239 is an excellent alternative, though like Kahr, not inexpensive.

Effigy
May 26, 2011, 05:03 PM
P239 is a nice gun, but much bigger than most of these. It weights twice what the PF9 does.

DoomGoober
May 26, 2011, 07:33 PM
"Doomgoober , what type of reliability have you experienced with the DB 380?"

FTE, FTF, all types of ammo. I hear they've cleaned up the 380's a bunch and hopefully their tiny little nines don't have the same problem.

richardKatts
October 9, 2011, 10:48 PM
Beretta Nano Specs
OVERALL LENGTH 5.63"
OVERALL HEIGHT 4.17"
GRIP WIDTH .90"
BARREL LENGTH 3.07"

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