AR-15 .223REM vs 6.8SPC vs 300AAC Blackout vs 6x45 vs 6.5Grendel vs 7.62x39...


May 7, 2011, 11:27 AM
I am doing comparative analysis of the following AR-15 calibers/upper options in terms of trajectory, accuracy, reliability, terminal effectiveness and pros&cons...

204 ruger
223 REM
6x45 / 6mm-223REM
300 AAC Blackout (I ordered a barrel for a new build but it is in back order so I am using the manufacturer data for now)
6.5 Grendel

Varmint rounds
Initial testing shows .204 and .223 varmint rounds with low grain bullets are hard to beat in trajectory as they shoot very flat but also their potential for other applications is limited based on the characteristics of the bullets.

The .223 rem can be a great white tail round for moderate range. The military 62gr new penetrators show a huge improvement over the early designs. 75gr TAP (tactical) loads are extrevelly effective. Value packs of 55gr loads can be found below $300 for 1K rounds (Federal, UMC, AE, Priv, PMC, etc...)
Most of the new loads are very different from the loads in 1965 when the AR was introduced. TSX 70gr bullets and Swift 75gr bullets are devastating as many other that offer great hunting alternatives. The best bullets with the ballistic coefficients are mostly dedicated to match/target and require, along with some of the best hunting bullets, 1:8 and 1:7 rate of twist. Magazines has been adapted like DPMS VLD to allow single stack feeding of long OAL both in standard casing and AI offering.
High grain rounds offer good speed and retain energy better therefore carrying more lethal puch even well past the 400yards.

The 300 AAC Blackout
The round is a very easy conversion with lots of possibilities, including subsonic loads. I have not been able to test this barrel as I ordered a barrel for a new build but it is in back order so I am using the manufacturer data for now. This system is very simple as it only requires the barrel. Bolt, magazines, everyhing else is the same as the standard AR. The website lists an interesting comparative of some popular calibers but I think they missed (on purpose) some of the other very attractive alternatives. The information in the comparative is not 100% accurate.

The load is virtualy the same as the 300 wisper recently released by hornady....

The round is hard hitting at close range and initial reports are of a very accurate round but it looses energy rapidly for mid range due to the poor ballistics of the round.

There are many great offerings from manufactures that will allow AR-15 enthusiasts to shoo the Russian classic military rounds. These rounds are not impressive ballistically but they offer a nice alternative to consume inexpensive surplus and value packs that make them a great round for plinkin and fun. A good quality SP or HP round can be a good hunting round for short-moderate range. Like the blackout at short range is very effective but in longer distances it suffers from the poor ballistics of the round.
This round shoots well out of the AR but it was really designed for the AK-47 system. This requires new barrel, bolt and also special magazines.

The 6.8 Special was a response to the need to provide more terminal effectiveness, specially at closer ranges and deliver more energy on target.
The system was developed in a joint effort with special Operations advice to provide a platform with ammunition that handles very similar to the standard AR but delivers more power on target. It can also be very accurate.
While this is a nice improvement over the 223 round and even the Russian round it suffers from some of the same consequences of using a higher caliber lower grain type of bullet, it looses momentum faster. This can be also a great hunting round and some uppers are very accurate. Definitely a serious round.
It also needs a new barrel, new bolt and special/adapted AR magazines.

6x45 / 6mm-223REM
For me this is one of the best options for the AR-15. It uses a new 6mm barrel but the rest is the same, same bolt same magazines. The concept is old but very simple, neck up a .223 case to 6mm and then you land in one of the best bullet departments there is for both the target and hunting shooter.
It also makes it legal in those places where (for an inexplicable reason) the .223 rem is not allowed for white tail hunting.
The 6x45 provides a 20-30% improvement over the parent .223 rem case and makes it flat shooting, hard hitting, far reach round.
The round is extremely accurate and it won many matches back in the late 60's and early 70's before the BR round came along.

6.5 Grendel
This round uses an improved version of the PPC cartridge. It offers the possibility to launch extremely good bullets at decent speeds making an
excellent target and hunting round. This round doesn't shoot as flat as other more exotic casings but the bullets can travel far due to the high ballistic coefficient and stay supersonic delivering very good accuracy. The terminal effectiveness of the round is a very nice improvement over the original AR round and it has a very nice following from enthusiasts and special purpose use.
This system uses new barrels and it needs new bolt and special magazines.
It makes it along with the 6x45 a great alternative for those shooters that want to reach further while retaining energy due to the very good bullets that can be used.

There are other awesome offerings that I will summarize int his post like the 6mmAR, 6mmAR turbo, and some thumpers like the 50 bewolf, 450 bushmaster, and 540 socom but I just wanted to get started with some of the maybe most popular options and that I have been able to shoot.

This post is for interested people to learn about the different options and not to demote, criticize but to learn about possibilities so we do not end up in one of the threads like 9mm vs. 40cal, AR vs. AK, Shotgun vs rifle, MINE VS YOURS. All those senseless unfunded arguments that teach nothing and lead nowhere. Every round, firearm, tactic has a purpose and some advantages and disadvantages over others so we cannot and should not compare apples with oranges but learn how those options work so we can make the best choice based on our needs, likes and dislikes.

I will add some of the actual test results as time allows.


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May 7, 2011, 11:33 AM
No offense but your analysis isn't much good.

Do you have experience with ANY of these cartridges?

May 7, 2011, 11:37 AM
There we go...
Why is not good. I have been shooting them all and some of them for the last 30 years in the service and after I retired. Provide a question or an evidence why the data is not good.
Just in a respectful way. I hope you understand.

May 7, 2011, 11:47 AM
Okay. First. It looks like an advertisement for 300aac. Why no links to info on the others?

Second, the 6.5 Grendel is one of the most flat shooting AR calibers out there and with a 24" barrel and the right bullet it will shoot flatter than most .308 match loads.

Third, it feels like you have disdain for 6.8 and 6.5 and 7.62 and displays an obvious bias to the 6x45.

Also, the .300aac doesn't have poor ballistics. It has low velocity.

May 7, 2011, 12:05 PM
My approach to things is that I want to learn from you or anyone, so lets do this if you want...
I am sorry if my comment came out as the grendel no being a good round. It is a great round no doubt.
Lets go one by one in detail. I can tell you the ones I have tested so please provide the ones you have tested yourself (not manufacturer or some other data). As I said in my post I don't have the ACC yet but I used the published data and the manufacturer seems to differ from other published data in their comparative so we have to be fair and this is the best way.
They all are great rounds but different purposes probably.

I give you one of the spreads that I have. I could never replicate the speed published by Adams arms w/o stepping into the red. My friends have the same problem but it is very close.
Fill out bellow what you have from your data...

My Data
Round______Barrel___Bullet_______BC.___ SD____Speed_____100yrds(Speed/Energy/Drop)__300yard_____________600yards
6.5 Grendel___24"____123 scenar__0.527__??_____2590______2414/1591/2.71______________2086/1188/27.00____1650/744/127.40
.223REM_____20"____69gr SMK___0.333__??_____3071______ 2762/1169.4/1.9____________2195.4 /738.4/20.8____1466.4/329.4 /110.2

Your data
6.5 Grendel 24" ??? ???? ?? ??? speed/energy/drop
300 ACC

I am not bias towards anything but I have to obviously highlight some of the differences I found in my testing. As it happens I was testing the 6x45 and .223 REM high grain loads last weekend. The other data is from last spring so I might need to go back and review or test again.
Lets talk just facts that are the bullets tested, the spreads and the hard math that way there is no confusion.
I will post more data below for other rounds. IT takes time to review and bring into a chart.

May 7, 2011, 12:39 PM
I'm sure your data is fine for you, but you are just like anyone who has their favorite caliber. You like the 6x45 and it shows. Hard to do a good evaluation of others when you really only care about the one. I have found that its best to do an evaluation on one at a time and not put them all in one thread. Especially if you are only going to do a single paragraph eval on something.

May 7, 2011, 12:48 PM
I have no one but many "favorite" calibers.
You asked me if I know the calibers and I tested them. I said yes.
Provide some data if you want so others can learn from facts.
I cannot write a thread for each one as with some I have more experience (like the .223 REM) and with others less but I think the assesments are acurate and whether they need new bolts, magazines or not. I want to have a good summary but please feel free to correct any misinformation I have or to extend those paragraphs based on your results not bare opinions.
This is an open collaborative thread.

May 7, 2011, 12:49 PM
i would like to say I like your brief summary of these rounds. I didnt feel this was a blatant plug. It was )as you stated) the only round you havent used and a link to manufacturer data.
6.5 is a fine round when fired out of 16-24" barrels as it was designed for.
Dont take every notion of another round being decent as an attack on the grendel.
I am building a grendel range rifle right now. If I were building something for HD I would probably go for 450 bushmaster or 50 beowolf.
If I were intent on hunting at ranges of <400m I would be looking into a 6.8 spcII.
There are myriad options and opinions when it come to AR chamberings, It is somewhat discouraging when everytime someone gives an opinion it is taken as an assault on everyone elses pet round.
If you are going to say something, be productive at least; give some data to back up what you have to say.
I can say ".300 aac cant penetrate a pair of jeans at 100m" because i can sit all day and pull statements and factoids out of my @$$. It doesnt make it true and it doesnt make it helpful either.

Also lets also at least try to include barrel lengths when we discuss performance. It is incredibly helpful to do so.

-thanks for an informative yet brief bit of info 1stmarine-

May 7, 2011, 01:11 PM
So we all agree with the assertion that the 6.5 grendel is not a very flat shooting round? Its okay to ask me to post data to disprove his statement but simply because he posted the OP he gets the benefit of the doubt? I mentioned the things about his evaluation that I felt were poor and misleading. If he wants to back up his claims HE needs to prove them. Not just say them.

Is there another round for the AR that can be double stacked in a mag and be shot to 1000 yards with less drop?

May 7, 2011, 01:20 PM
These rounds are not impressive ballistically
This is your quote describing 7.62x39.

how so?
I'd say in multiple applications this is a pretty impressive round. You say 223 can be a great white tail round, but I'd say x39 would make a better white tail round wouldn't you?

May 7, 2011, 01:49 PM
For your comparison criteria, this is the only AR caliber I have data on. I shoot 5.56 too, but only shoot loads for function and not performance right now.

6.8 SPC, 110 Grain Nosler Accubonds (BC .370), 18" lightweight barrel

My handloads with H322 are getting a conservative 2630 fps (which happens to be identical to SSA factory ammo claims). +2.3" @ 100, O" in @ 200, -9.7" @ 300.

I have plenty of room to push the bullet faster, but this load is giving me sub-MOA easily. Long ranges in windy conditions are not ideal.

No problems to report.

Terminal effectiveness,
Minimum expansion velocity at 1800 fps puts bullet performance just shy of 400 yards. No game personally taken by me yet, so I can't claim any kills other than 1 gal milk jugs (though, those are still fun :evil:).

Easy to build with many sources of 6.8 parts and support available. I pair barrels with bolts anyway so the new bolt was a non-issue for me. Great accuracy in a lightweight, low-recoil package with plenty of game taking power. Ammo is easy to find in my area, online, or at my loading bench.

I give up 5 rounds per mag v/s 5.56 (not an issue when hunting as I have a 5 rd mag limit). There is no cheap, milsurp or russian berm killing ammo available. Good ammo is comparable to other calibers.

Other shooters are also favoring the lighter weight premium bullets for hunting. The 85 TSX and 95 TTSX have gotten great reviews. I am awaiting Nosler's 85 eTip that is to be released later this year as well. There is also a ladder of 120gr SSTs waiting on my dresser for a range trip.

May 7, 2011, 01:55 PM
So we all agree with the assertion that the 6.5 grendel is not a very flat shooting round? NO:what:

Its okay to ask me to post data to disprove his statement but simply because he posted the OP he gets the benefit of the doubt? Seems dubious to me

I mentioned the things about his evaluation that I felt were poor and misleading. If he wants to back up his claims HE needs to prove them. Not just say them. Concur. Or, at least give the disclosure that there is no 1st hand experience to back up the summary and is based on internet hearsay

Is there another round for the AR that can be double stacked in a mag and be shot to 1000 yards with less drop? AR15? Maybe a wildcat but nothing I know of

Cartridges of the World:rolleyes:

May 7, 2011, 05:19 PM
The information in the comparative is not 100% accurate.

What data is not accurate? Give one example.

451 Detonics
May 7, 2011, 07:57 PM
The original concept of the .300 Whisper was for use in suppressed firearms...hence the name. AAC just took the all R&D JD Jones did and added a mm to the case length to avoid being sued. This alone make the cartridge unique from the others in your comparison as none of them were designed with suppression as the main objective.

May 7, 2011, 08:08 PM
Ridiculous. SSK has no patents on the 300 Whisper(R) and there would be no basis for a lawsuit even if it were copied exactly. Every final dimension we selected has a specific purpose. I cannot even say things were 'changed' as we did not even know what dimensions SSK used. We simply started from scratch with a 221 Fireball case and made it an optimal 30 caliber.

As for ballistics, I have shot it at 600 yards with an AAC 16 inch lightweight upper. I hit the 3 inch X-ring.

May 7, 2011, 09:26 PM
I didn't mean to discredit any caliber here. I have used them all. I love the 7.62x39 FMJs for all my AKs although I do not use it for hunting.
Yes the 7.62x39 is a great cartridge for hunting for close to moderate range.
I don't reload this one as the good brass and quality bullet selection is restricted but definitely there are some good quality brass loads out there.
The bullet drops substantially after 200 yards but with a good rifle and quality brass load it can be very accurate and a little bit more can be squeezed out of this great round.
It is widely used for deer hunting around the world but folks must be conscious about the range limitations.

May 7, 2011, 09:42 PM
The 6.8SPC is a great round too with great capabilities. No doubt about that.
Do you have more data on those reloads?
I have been measuring the spreads out of the following factory loads that all have been awesome loads by the way:

Hornady 6.8mm SPC 110 gr V-MAX that yields average 2540fps out of a 16" barrel. I Also tested a few of boxes of the 6.8 SPC 110gr Barnes TSX and also the Nosler AccuBond you mentioned all with very similar results.
All very accurate.

These are the results that I am getting at 300 yards..
Speed 1851
Energy 837
Drop 30.09

After that the bullet starts to fall rapidly. Is this consistent with your results?

May 7, 2011, 09:55 PM
I have the 300 AAC on back order as they told me on the shop now they are flying off the shelves. The reason I am going with this one is to try some of the suppressed subsonic loads that people have shown so accurate and reliable. Just for fun, nothing serious.
Regarding the Grendel it is a great system. My buddy got one with the 26" Lothar Walther barrel that is printing .40MOA all day long.
What I cold not understand is why the 300 AAC blackout website lowered the numbers on the 6.8SPC and Russian rounds. I get higher spreads on my 6.8upper (16") or any of the standard AK 47 even using the standard loads in 16" barrel. And they do not even mention the Grendel, the 6x45 uppers or any others.
I guess to make the blackout look better? It is not necessary no doubt is a great round for what the purpose is...
Here in the middle of the page....

Please feel free to post any information you have in your loads or spreads as this might be useful to others. I am trying to put a workbook with all the spreads together so people can see just as a reference depending on purpose, budget or any other considerations. And of course, I included the barrel length. You might have missed it.

Round_________Barrel___Bullet_______BC.___ SD____Speed_____100yrds(Speed/Energy/Drop)___300yard______________600yards
6.5 Grendel______24"____123 scenar__0.527__??_____2590______2414/1591/2.71_____________2086/1188/27.00______1650/744/127.40
.223REM________20"____69gr SMK___0.333__??_____3071______ 2762/1169.4/1.9_____________2195.4 /738.4/20.8____1466.4/329.4 /110.2
6.8 SPC ________16"____110V-Max__0.370__??_____2540_______2294.5/1285.8/2.9___________1850.8/836.6/30.1_____1296/410/155.86
300 AAC _______16"____123gr______0.265__??_____2315_______1994.1/1086.0/3.6___________1442.1/568.0/40.5_____N.A./N.A./249.5
6x45(6mm-223)__20"____90gr SGK___0.376__??_____2762_______2508.6/1257.5/2.4___________2048.1/838.2/25.1_____1466.4/429.7/128.0
6mmAR Turbo____20"____105 VLD___0.493__??_____2907_______2706.6/1707.9/2.2___________2333.2/1269.2/21.5____1838.7/788.2/101.7

I added a few other tests results. As I mentioned for the 300AAC I am using the manufacturer published data. Also for this and the russian
I don't have speed and energy at long range as I customized my charts with Break speed at 1300fps at which point I discard any accurate calculation and the
bullet is on ground or heading straight to it probably.I also adjust the retardation coefficient based on the Mayewski constant in all my ballistics charts.
As you know there is no one single Ballistic coefficient for one bullet. Most manufactures do not advertise this. Sierra does a good job and provides
a more accurate information regarding their bullet's ballistic coefficients.

I hope this helps.


May 7, 2011, 10:26 PM
After that the bullet starts to fall rapidly. Is this consistent with your results?
I am currently limited to a 100 yd range and have been unable to hunt for the past year so I don't have real-world data beyond that and a chony at 10' (never had game past 100 yards anyway). Hornady's online calculator lists 300yd data as 1962 fps and 940 ft lbs with the Accubond.

The loads are for a SPCII chamber (as the SAAMI chamber would be like buying the latest muscle car and not getting the V8). There is still have room for more velocity but that speed gave me great accuracy with my barrel. Others are getting great results with Rl 10x and AA2200. H322 is good for accuracy and moderate speeds across the spectrum of 6.8 bullet weights (85-120).

May 7, 2011, 10:43 PM
I do believe the 6.8 with a 120gr would make a great alternative to many bolt rifles even for bigger game at moderate range.
When I saw SSA had a TSX and Nosler in 110 I had to try it and even I have not used that one on game I am getting amazing accuracy.
Based on my experience with any TSX from .223 rem to .338 lapua, it doesn't matter the grain or the caliber they are devastating. The nosler partitions the same story.
I don't have a problem with a bigger drop as I am very picky to make sure I map the bullet drop to the scope/sights, update the charts and never touch the upper again.
I tell people you can train drop and long range with a 250dollar rifle in a 200 yard range. ie: Savage bolt BBL in 22LR with high quality loads shooting at 50-100-150 and 200 yards requires some
understanding of ballistics to make scope adjustments, wind, etc... Need a decent scope though. that always.

Do you know what barrel did hornady lists? I have my chart at the following at 300 yards (see I updated above too) 1850.8/836.6/30.1
So Hornady seems a bit optimistic (maybe lab conditions) but plausible nevertheless.

May 7, 2011, 10:49 PM
What I cold not understand is why the 300 AAC blackout website lowered the numbers on the 6.8SPC and Russian rounds. And they do not even mention the Grendel, the 6x45 uppers or any others. I guess to make the blackout look better?

I generated those numbers. I did not lower any of them. The 6.8 data was right off Hornady's website.

I did not mention the Grendal because it is a proprietary wildcat. I did not mention 6x45 because it is a wildcat.

May 7, 2011, 11:03 PM
It makes sense initially but why to leave out some others, specially good performers. They all are "wildcats", aren't they?
the fireball necked up to 30 caliber is a wildcat.
The grendel is based on the PPC / 220 russian
the 6.8 is based on the .30 remington
... and the list goes on....

I am not trying to discredit the 300 AAC, I think is a great round with a lot of hard word to bring it to specs but just stroke me that the comparative
is so short and restricted.

May 7, 2011, 11:08 PM
300 AAC BLACKOUT is not a wildcat. It was submitted to SAAMI in June of 2010, and on January 17th, 2011, SAAMI voted it in as a standard cartridge. Neither is it proprietary. Any ammo company can make ammo royalty free and any gun company can make guns, royalty-free. Cartridge and chamber drawings are available from SAAMI.

May 7, 2011, 11:22 PM
I know what SAAMI is. You could also say in your comparative SAAMI vs proprietary/wildcats I believe.
I am sure I will enjoy the 300 blackout when the barrel arrives and I will be buying some rounds to play with it and the loads.
I might post this comparative in wikipedia.

May 7, 2011, 11:39 PM
It seems like we have two different definitions of wildcats. You are using the term to mean any cartridge which was based on another cartridge. By your definition, the 270 Winchester is a wildcat as it is based on the 30-06. I am using the term to mean any cartridge which is not standardized by industry organizations such as CIP or SAAMI.

Comparison charts based on wildcats should be approached with extreme prejudice as there is no SAAMI protocol test barrel data and the velocity is not likely to be achieved when tested in an actual pressure test barrel within normal pressure limits.

May 8, 2011, 12:08 AM
There is only one definition for wildcats so nobody can have two. MAny serious enthusiasts do all the research in advance and sometimes they get little or no credit for it, but occasionally they do.
I do agree the any comparatives should be approached with the most caution and I make that clear in my post but I do not agree they should be approached with extreme prejudice give proper information about build, barrel length, pressure, speed, ballistics, etc...
And regarding the .270winchester huge volumes of surplus 30.06 brass made the foundation for dozens of commercial and wildcat cartridges. That has been the case with many military rounds.
I can make as many "Grendel" cases as I want out of a simple Russian case, but I don't. I am looking for extreme accuracy and Lapua quality is very hard to beat.

May 8, 2011, 12:14 AM
There is also the 6mmAR, 6mmTurbo, .224AR, .20 practical, etc. There are a lot of wildcats that have been tossed into the AR platform.

May 8, 2011, 12:20 AM
Links on the Grendel ballistics and reloading info...
Interesting the "FACTORY" and some advertised spreads folks with a lot of experience reloading have been having serious trouble duplicating. But it is not so bad so the round still is an awesome round no matter what.

May 8, 2011, 12:24 AM
I know that there are great choices and should be analyzed but I don't have more choices that I tested (for now). I put in my chart before the 6mm AR turbo from Robert Withley's website.

I wish I could have them all!!!!

May 8, 2011, 12:33 AM
There is only one definition for wildcats so nobody can have two.

And what is that definition?

I do not agree they should be approached with extreme prejudice give proper information about build, barrel length, pressure, speed, ballistics, etc...

You cannot determine chamber pressure without proper equipment, so there is no sense in comparing velocity from an individual to data properly measured in a pressure test barrel.

May 8, 2011, 01:12 AM
This is a collaboration post but if you want lets Quote & Roll then...

Originally Posted by 1stmarine
There is only one definition for wildcats so nobody can have two.

And what is that definition?

Originally Posted by 1stmarine
I do not agree they should be approached with extreme prejudice give proper information about build, barrel length, pressure, speed, ballistics, etc...

You cannot determine chamber pressure without proper equipment, so there is no sense in comparing velocity from an individual to data properly measured in a pressure test barrel.

You have no idea about my background, my resources or what I can determine or not. For all we know, You could be Captain Hook and I could be Peter Pan.

You wrote:
I generated those numbers. I did not lower any of them. The 6.8 data was right off Hornady's website.

Great 6.8 round but didn't even look into the SSA website. Also in the russian round why you didn't give hornady's or lapua information for the comparative and instead a rather conservative 7.62x39 russian load? How convenient right? and then you question my work and assessments.

Tell me if any information I posted about the 300AAC is not accurate and then I will correct the spreads or the ballistic charts. It better be as I took the info from the published data and I have been honest about this all along from the beginning. I don't have a barrel yet. And don't give me the lab or manufacturing data but field proven data, even with wind temperature, speed and direction I can use that too as it is in real life.
Energy at the muzzle says very little about a round performance.

Collaborate and teach something or learn something like all the others, it is easy to do with the right attitude.


May 8, 2011, 01:53 AM
Wildcat cartridge
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A wildcat cartridge, or wildcat, is a custom cartridge for which ammunition and firearms are not mass produced. These cartridges are often created in order to optimize a certain performance characteristic (such as the power, size or efficiency) of an existing commercial cartridge.

Wildcat cases and cartridges can be found for sale, but only from small makers. Larger manufacturers usually don't produce wildcats because there is such a limited market for them and because there are no established CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente Pour L'Epreuve Des Armes A Feu Portatives - Permanent International Commission) or SAAMI standards, which causes liability concerns.

So based on this, it appears that you agree with rsilver's definition of a wildcat.

Also wiki is not authoritative. Anyone can post anything on wiki and only other users that care enough to do something about it are the policing force for accuracy/correctness. In addition, that doesn't mean that "corrections" are correct.

May 8, 2011, 08:28 AM
You have no idea about my background, my resources or what I can determine or not. For all we know, You could be Captain Hook and I could be Peter Pan.

The difference is that I am quoting actual pressure barrel data, and you are not.

Great 6.8 round but didn't even look into the SSA website

I did, but SSA does not provide reason for me to believe they test and load to the same pressure standards. I can load 300 AAC BLACKOUT hot also. I had it up to 2600 fps, but I don't quote that, because it is not SAAMI pressure barrel data. SSA does not seem to load to SAAMI standards but seems to "+P" their ammo.

Also in the russian round why you didn't give hornady's or lapua information for the comparative and instead a rather conservative 7.62x39 russian load?

For 7.62x39, most of the advertised data seems to be over-rated so I averaged the velocity of four actual loads to minimize error. The only data I had that I knew could be trusted was Remington or Hornady pressure barrel data, but I knew if I used those by themselves, people would complain.

And don't give me the lab or manufacturing data but field proven data

Well, if you want field-proven data, the 2315 fps I reported would raise to 2340 fps as tested by K of Noveske, and 2360 fps as tested by the federal govt.The official data is lower than the data from the field. Still, I go by the official data.

Why is the official data conservative? One reason is because we test in 16 inch barrels rather than the 24 inch barrels nearly all other rifle cartridges are tested in.

May 8, 2011, 09:41 AM
I am going to reply once again and stop the quoting game here.

Saying that SSA is over rated and Lapua is over-rated is not fair.
Their loads are safely used everywhere including Military and LEO customers (for many years in case of lapua) with zero case failures and trying to disregard them is not fair.
In their loads as many others there is no one single evidence of build up pressure. Also, I have tested hundreds of other Russian rounds on my AK's many steel case that are used by the millions and I get speeds from a 16" barrel higher than your advertised spread.

We know we agree in the wildcat cartridge definition of the word but to put things in context and if we are going to quote the encyclopedia we also have to post this:

Commercially accepted wildcats

Some cartridges started out as custom-made (non-commercially developed) wildcats, and gained wide enough acceptance or popularity to become commercial cartridges. Generally, cartridges become popular commercially after a commercial firearms maker begins offering a weapon chambered in the cartridge. Once popular enough, funding is generated for SAAMI standards development. After SAAMI standards are in place, any firearms or ammunition maker can be sure that any products manufactured to the SAAMI standards can be safely used.

There are many methods to measure pressure. Senior wildcatters many times do all the research in advance and get little or no credit for the hard work. This is the ballistics "open source" concept to benefit anyone and enjoy the public's intellectual property.

As I said the 300 AAC blackout seems to be a great round and I cannot wait to receive my new barrel when the backorder is fulfilled but I like to put a comparative with all my data so others can read it with performance at different ranges. The speed and energy at the muzzle says very little about the performance of any round.

I also understand the hard work on your developments and I can see how you are trying to defend your work. I can appreciate that and I have no right or intention to 'attack' anyone but I also have all the right to post my test results in my thread.
So correct any of my ballistic charts that I have with proven field data you have and I will be happy to add it to the list. (See the chart above).

I am trying to be positive here as I don't think long arguments yield any fruits for anyone like those we see all the time.

I hope you understand.

May 8, 2011, 10:34 AM
I am cool with quoting Lapua. They are 2345 fps from a 16.5 inch barrel. I am not sure what the extra 1/2 inch barrel does.

For 6.8 I still prefer to quote a more standards oriented company like Hornady or Remington. I picked Hornady for my chart because it was the faster of the two.

Coal Dragger
May 8, 2011, 01:58 PM

Of the calibers you have listed I would say the best bets for proper function would be those most closely related or based off of the .223/5.56mm. As you know they will all work better from more readily available magazines, and use more readily available bolts. Furthermore, from a durability standpoint I am not really sure that I would want to use an AR with a heavily rebated bolt face to accommodate a larger round; let's face it that there is not a lot of excess steel there for a .223 case much less a larger case head.

The .204 is a great varmint round, the .223 is versatile enough to have earned its keep for a long time now, and the other two are intriguing enough to give consideration to as well. The 6X45mm should as you noted be a good compromise, providing a heavier bullet and wider bullet selection for hunting purposes than a .223, while still providing high enough velocities to be useful. The .300AAC looks like fun, but I personally would have only very limited use for such a caliber, at least it will likely function quite well given that it appears to be based on the .223 case.

All the others listed are quite frankly noble attempts to improve the performance of the AR15 platform rifle that are all hamstrung by the need to fit into the small AR15 magazines and magazine well. Maybe it is time some company or someone designed an AR platform rifle that was in between an AR15 and an AR10 size wise, then we could actually see some cartridges that were really significant improvements that didn't demand so much compromise.

Semyon Vasilii
May 8, 2011, 02:27 PM
uh dude... just because some professional trigger pullers use LAPUA stuff doesnt mean that their numbers are generated in the same test rig that is used to get the numbers hornady does.

and since youre so <don't make me get my soap out - Owen> for wikipedia, why dont you read the page on the 300 BLK. if you had, you would know that this dude here on the internet, rsilvers, is the R&D director for advanced armament corp. i'd reckon that he knows a little more about how to properly test a round to get the numbers in the same manner that is accepted by saami and other major manufacturers.

and why would you ask for "field proven data" vs manufacturer data? the point of manufacturer data is that it is generated in a lab under certain repeatable conditions. this is done so that the conditions are the same for other rounds tested. field numbers will vary greatly day to day (temp, humidity, wind, probly even altitude), they will vary by rifle length, rifling twist rate, probably even which rifle was used. so to standardize the testing is not a bad thing. they are not trying to cheat you out of the real numbers and hide them from you.

dude youre making me glad im in the army lol

May 8, 2011, 03:04 PM
I have several 5.56/.223 and I like them for what they are. They are fun and cheaper and a good varmint and a light to medium game caliber with the right bullets.

I have a couple of 6.8 carbines and they are very good if you do your research and buy the barrel with the newer specs. I handload all my ammo for this caliber and have had great results. A good deer round at the proper distance.

I have zero experience with the other, but I think that if I wanted to step out there farther, the 6x45 or 6.5 with proper barrel length would be the way to go. I think the .204 would make an excellent varmint rig.

May 8, 2011, 05:06 PM
If I were to test how fast my car could stop from 80mph I would hope you wouldnt argue with my findings.
1stmarine simply posted his findings.
why dont you post your findings and perhaps then you can discuss the differences in your testing methodologies to find where the discrepancy might lie.

Very slight differences can result in a different round (ie. .38 super and .45 super).
I higly doubt that .300 whisper was simply taken and renamed. There were changes in the specification. There are differences in the specification for 7.62 NATO and .308 winchester as there are also differences between 5.56 nato and .223. There are differences between 6.8 SPC and 6.8 SPC II (and there are two other chamber specs that are designed to fire spc II ammunition).

If you disagree with 1st marine please dont just say his findings are wrong, just post your own findings and compare testing methodology.
Be constructive.
I mistyped in my earlier post and meant to say 18-24" barrels for the grendels.
I believe they are a very flat shooting round. I am building one right now. I want that 1000 meter range without going to the ar10 platform.
6.8 performs quite well but drops off at range. That fine as it was designed for increased penetration of intermediate barriers while retaining lethal terminal balistics when fired from a short barrel. It does a terrific job at what it was designed for.
Im also considering putting together an upper for wilson combats new .30 round. I would love to see what this round can do.
I have a 1000m range about an hour away, so maybe I will share my data with you guys soon.

May 8, 2011, 09:00 PM
Many thanks for understanding. As I said I can't wait to get the barrel so I can test it in the field. I can see the wonderful information and hard work in your website so but I just wanted to to point out a few things. I would do it with any round. Any round has its pros and cons, no doubt so purpose is key.
Everything starts and ends with a bullet, hopefully a good one. Everything else, the case, the system/barrel is like FEDEX, a simple delivery method.

May 8, 2011, 09:03 PM
The reason I like field data is so we can relate easier to that cause-effect in real life situations like we experience (summer vs. winter, windy vs. calm) so we can use also the barometer as a reference.
When I shoot in a windy day I hear people complaining about the weather or if is too windy, cold or warm. I tell everyone... That is the way it is going to be when you go for the hunt or you need to know what to do and how the round behaves.
If I could have all the barrel lengths and test them I would. In fact I would have all the calibers of the world but then I would need to be Bill Gates. LOL


May 8, 2011, 10:16 PM
So this is the scoop,
I went to the range this afternoon and tested a couple of uppers and a few rounds.
In order to clear any doubts from yesterday I also tested the AK47 out of the AK. I couldn't find any brass Fiocci or Priv so I headed for the range with just some FMJs from Wolf from the Tula plant and some loads from the Ulyanovsk plant. Both conform with SAAMI specifications.

Wind 5mph. direction 12 o'clock. Temp. 65F. altitude 600ft.

From the wolf I was getting spreads of 2,360 fps on average.
From the Ulyanovsk I was getting spreads of 2,330 fps on average.
I am going to update the chart with other tests and post them.


May 8, 2011, 10:39 PM
Taking Lapua data and converting it to a 16 inch barrel should give 2330 fps. I suggest that for your chart.

May 8, 2011, 11:03 PM
here we go....
I added a couple of other calibers from not tested manufacturer data like the 6mmAR turbo and the published data from Alexander Arms on the 123gr scenar that could not be seen or duplicated in the chrono in real life. Same story with my friends. We are not too far behind but still we are not there yet.

May 8, 2011, 11:13 PM
From today....

May 9, 2011, 10:58 AM
Is that one shot, or a 10 or more shot average?

May 9, 2011, 11:51 AM
Simple ballistic facts :small long bullets fly flatter than big fat bullets. Small long bullets need more barrel length to reach the same speed for the same powder charge than big fat bullets. It's a simple matter of the exposed cross sectional area.

Match the power level of the bullet and its effective point blank range to the intended target. Small long bullets have a longer effective point blank range, but have less power. Big fat bullets have more power but less effective range.

Shooters come to their basic caliber choices completely bass ackward, attracted to the hype, not the actual performance. They choose on what they think is more respected, and gets them some. The Win 94 is no longer respected, and went out of business, even though the .30-30 ranks as the #1 deer cartridge since it's introduction. This too will pass.

In AR's, 5.56 is not well respected, but others are, and that fuels their popularity. Which people respect it adds credibility, and that multiplies it's marketing impact. In forums, if there seems to be misinformation, or even deliberate disinformation, fanatics of the caliber will dissent. Most often they portray their cartridge as capable of defying physics, and attempt to produce data based on mathematical interpretation, rarely physical measurement of actual bullets flying.

Any time I see the number generated by a computer program, or interpolated to a different untested specification, I understand the conversation has gone from actual data points to virtual - a result based on potentially unreliable formulas with mathematical constants and assumed best guess modeling.

Ballistic coefficient uses nine - 9 - different models of flight resistance alone. It is NOT an unchanging figure as velocity changes, regardless that some ignorantly insist on it. Therefore, virtual figures are not reliable or trustworthy unless verified by actual measurement in real life.

Regardless of the honesty of the attempt, presenting different barrel lengths, bullet weights, and interpolated results just fuels the fanboys into insisting they are misrepresented, and claiming the test procedure is flawed has some merit they can turn to their advantage.


May 9, 2011, 09:16 PM
That was one shot in 2 strings. I realized I mixed some of the spreads from the two boxes by not pushing the next string button. I have another 3 strings loaded in the machine. I was getting some in the 230's and some in the 290s so I picked one in the middle.
I wasn't going to get all the spreads out but if you want I will calculate the precise average for you. 4 strings of 10 were fired. total 2 boxes one of each ammo.

The Ulyanovsk manufacturer lists them at 2396 out of the 16" barrel but I think it is a little overrated like most do. I got a couple over 400 but that is not normal. As you know russian metal case military rounds are not the most reliable spreads but they do get the job done for the purpose. Again these are brand new standard rounds, nothing special. I buy them in 2K rounds deals. Lots of folks use these Tula and other factory loads all over the world.

Let me know if you want me to calculate the actual average. It should be around that


May 9, 2011, 09:35 PM
It makes more sense to use the Lapua nominal data. 2345 fps from a 16.5 inch barrel. That is about 2330 from a 16 inch.

May 9, 2011, 09:47 PM
This is what I know:
- Math is an exact science.
- Ballistics is based on Math (that's how we can hit targets one mile away and artillery can shell enemy positions 15-20 miles away).
- My math has not changed in the last 30 years. I do the same I used to do by hand back in the service and put in my shooting cards the difference now I have excel and a dell axim! What a wonderful world, isn't it? maybe a few tune ups here and there but with variations so insignificant that they are not relevant in most scenarios.
- The ones that I have tested I have mapped into the scope at various ranges and that is how I know the Ballistic coefficients are right as advertised, including actual retardation variable and adjusted retardation.
-Some bullet manufactures do a better job than others with their data but overall is pretty good. Sierra for example gives the various ballistic coefficients at several speed ranges.
- The ones that I have not tested I have indicated so and provided only for reference as I mentioned before.
- I have tested not once, but many times some of them at all ranges. Only the Grendel I have tested at 1000 yards but so far have not been able to replicate the AA advertised loads. My break speed is at 1300fps and at that point I discard the remaining math as I consider it not useful to me.

-The most important fact is that so far this thread is going well with some nice folks showing interest and I am pretty sure we can learn from each other. The way threads should be all the time and sadly not always happens.


May 9, 2011, 09:52 PM
Yes that makes sense. After my other work I was just trying to show what some of the popular loads do in a field test.

Also I have to add that my equipment is all well maintained, true and tested. Sometimes we run machines in parallel with a couple of friends that do BR to make sure we debug any inconsistencies due to bad hardware.

I wasn't planning to get out all the data from the Russian puffins but if you want I can give you all the spreads and averages from the machine.


May 9, 2011, 10:09 PM
Someone talked about .223 REM in the AR being underestimated? Well my answer to that is that some folks might have some personal preferences but there are very few things a modern 75gr bullet traveling at 2750fps cannot do at a moderate range and for most purposes the average joe needs. Even an entry level system is going to be much better than the average joe.

When folks start talking about 600 yards, 800 yards and so, the least of their worries are what system to choose and more about the gear and proper training. That's where the big bucks go.

.223, 6x45, grendel, big momma single stack calibers, ...same way I think about the 300 SSA blackout. It can do a lot of things and apparently very well. I am really excited about the suppressed possibilities and see if I can get a pig or two in the summer w/o waking up the neighbors around the farm.

here is a .223 rem target from last fall out of an RRA National Match upper...


May 10, 2011, 09:34 PM
The 6x45 is closing up and I got many groups inside a dime this being the best of them....

I like the lothar walter barrel. It is braking in nicely and the $'s in advance show up later on.

May 10, 2011, 10:43 PM
Well 1stmarine, I hate to take another direction but I have to ask.

What do you think of the .243win compared to the 6x45?

I was all set to order in 243 and then here you come making all this sense with the 6x45! Now I don't know what to do!

May 10, 2011, 11:23 PM
Well the .243win is one of the most popular rounds in the world but that is not just because of the .308win parent case but because of the bullets you can launch that is the 6mm department.
So the .243win is hard to beat but you have to run it on an AR-10. DPMS makes a good one but I heard better go for the shilen barrels.
The 6x45 carries plenty of punch and feels the void quite nicely.
It can put a 90gr bullet with very good BC at 2700fps and 2750 with a hot hunting round. Not that is needed but plenty to take care of a white tail out to 300 or even close to 400 yards and a coyote at 500 even 600 yards but at those ranges the least of your worries is the system you choose and the gear and the training is where the big bucks go. Most folks are not ready to do that.
One thing is sure, the 6mm bullets can take care of many types of game not just white tail.
I feel that for many uses the 6x45 will work just fine, like in places for an inexplicable reason the .223rem you cannot hunt, but it is up to you if you need the extra punch of the .243Win that is a very nice round but need the extra meat to carry around with the AR10.
Both can be extremely accurate and capable of below 1/2MOA if you put the dollars in a match barrel and some reloads.
The 6x45 brass is virtually free at the range bin so something to take into account.
The lothar walther I got is a very good barrel and is giving below 1/4MOA already.

I liked the 6x45 project because of the simplicity. That is why I like the .223 REM high grain rounds and all the other rounds that do not need extra mags, oversized bolts and whole nine yards. It keeps the systems better integrated, I think.
I have around 140 AR-15 magazines and only a few dozen among all the other rounds so you cannot beat standardization.
I still believe our troops should have the 6x45 with 80gr to 90gr sniper rounds.
There will be less need for the .308 in many situations the 5.56 cannot deliver the mail.

Read this....

I you consider 6x45 you can buy this one but I think the one you build could be as good or better. Also plan in reloading, black hills is expensive
and do not shoot that great anyway. I went with a 1:9 rate and it has no issues stabilizing the 100grainers.

I hope this helps.

May 11, 2011, 12:01 AM
I really want to thank you for posting your project and value your opinion very highly. I'll keep thinking but I'm liking that 6x45. Free brass, common mags, weight. Makes sense to me. Kinda like the idea of having somthing a little different. But also makes me a little apprehensive being a little different. Maybe for no reason but I consider myself still pretty green.

May 11, 2011, 10:07 AM
Many thanks for the kind words. The way I approach this is like many other projects, people tell me cannot be done and the math told me it can be done.
so I bite the bullet and get it built and then show the results.
Many folks still very skeptical about the .223REM capabilities being good for hunting and others are taking down white tail and black bear with them all day long. So what can I tell you?. There are always skeptical people and more times than not those do not own any of the systems they are criticizing. One thing you will find in this forum is extremely experienced people but also a lot of the folks that are experts at everything and masters at nothing.
I believe this was one of the easiest once I got the barrel that was a long wait but the build is a no brainier. The only thing that I am going to do like I do with some others is to change the gas block for one with the gas adjustment so I can tune up the timing - dwell time.
I am not a master at this. I will never be. The day I stop learning that day I will be dead.

I will be creating another thread on the 30 Rem AR I am working on now. That with 150gr and 160gr high BC bullets.
Another one I believe underestimated. This is single stack though and needs dpms mags and bolt but very strong
little stubby case.


May 11, 2011, 10:25 AM
Come on. Three shot groups? They are not useful for judging ammo or rifle performance.

At least a 10 shot group or an average of five consecutive five shot groups.

May 11, 2011, 12:50 PM
I've never necked any up or down before. Lube, size it, done? When necking up does the case mouth get thin? Not that I'm worried about case life I guess. This is what concerns me a little I guess, having never done it before.

May 11, 2011, 08:24 PM
I agree, those are pure luck. I get lucky every time I shoot 3 shots inside a dime every day as many times as I want.
There is always a reason for 3 shots groups.

May 11, 2011, 08:30 PM
I assume you are asking form 5.56 to 6mm. The difference is 0.44mm.
The neck wall gets thiner but good for 4 or 5 reloads in the AR, depending on the quality of the brass and how hot you go.
Necking up I use canola oil. one drop. rub my fingers and that's good for 10 cases. It also helps 'feel' the case for any imperfections after the mandatory visual inspection.
In all autoloaders I full resize all the time and check for OAL, trim if necessary.
The .223 REM and all offsprings from this case are very forgiving and a good way for junior reloaders to get experienced in the wonderful art(or science) of reloading.

May 11, 2011, 09:44 PM
Thanks. I've run a little over 1000 223 thru my 550 so far. No big trouble yet and they've been running fine thru my AR. I think you've got me sold. Now what am I going to do with this 243 brass that I started stocking up on? Thanks again!

May 11, 2011, 10:08 PM
What range are looking for? Did you consider the Grendel or the 30 Remington AR?
My advice is don't do this based on opinions on one post alone. I suggest you think about it and talk to other people. I do this for fun, sometimes the projects work better than others. The .243win is an amazing round so I would save it even if you decide now you want to go with the AR15 upper. Again talk to others, that is what I would do.

I like the other uppers too. What is the purpose? are you not happy with the .223REM?
I understand if some places is not allowed for hunting below 6mm, who knows why?. Maybe to avoid people going hunting with a cheap 55gr load, I guess. ?

My primary reason for these uppers is A) hunt B) hobby
and C) and the most important...extreme FAST THREE SHOT EXTREME accuracy if I can squeeze it out. That is related to point A too.

May 11, 2011, 10:16 PM
when it comes down to the SHTF situation, you are gonna wish you had a common caliber that ammo will be readily availble for, stick to the basics or wind up with a rifle with no ammo for it. as I remember plastic (synthetic) stocks tend to shatter when they come in contact with a human skull....

May 11, 2011, 10:23 PM
Do we really need to bring SHTF into this? Honestly, this isn't talk about an end of the world rifle. It's about a rifle for the world we're in now. Honestly, if you are playing with one of these fairly uncommon rounds, you've probably got a few others to also use in any case where spare parts are no longer available.

May 11, 2011, 10:48 PM
I don't know what is with the SHTF, end of days, year 2012, mayan calendar folks. I see this a lot lately and I don't know what that means. I DO know the meaning of the acronym but I cannot envision what sort of situation this could be. Maybe something like what happened in Japan with the Tsunami?
I encourage folks to open a new thread to explain there what their worries are, not here. We are in a peaceful constructive thread (so far).
Besides my uppers I also have a few dozen "airsoft" systems. That's what I know best from my early puppy days in the service as squad DM.
and I have thousands of those "airsoft" bb's that we used in the service. LOL!

Where were we?

May 11, 2011, 10:53 PM
I personally appreciate the work you do in prep of your post.

May 11, 2011, 11:04 PM
Thanks. I am learning too, ...every day.

May 12, 2011, 12:20 AM
Just general use for me. I started out wanting to add a 308 but really didn't need anything that big. Then I was thinking 243, already have the dies and some brass. Saw your project thread and it really got me to thinking about the 6x45. The 223 will really do about all I NEED to do but what's the fun in that! Always room for just a little more of whatever your seeking. I think I'll probably go store bought. I know that's no fun for some people but it's simple. And I'm in to simple.

May 12, 2011, 12:43 AM
For simplicity is hard to beat that is for sure.
If you like accuracy spend the bucks in the barrel no matter what caliber. It will show. But there are some entry barrels that are not bad for the price.
I like 20" to get the most out of the round. I could go a little further but I calculated that at 20" in this caliber with this case you are done pushing the bullet at that length.

I also tried the Superformance powder but I couldn't make it work just yet in any of the AR calibers, including grendel, 30AR and also the bigger brothers including the .308 winchester and 03.06.
In the end plenty of speed with the extruded powders for the 85gr and 90gr SGKs. I also used the TTSX from barnes that are top white tail performers.

I also tried the 100gr SGK and the 105gr AMAX but have not enough data to create a ballistic chart. I mostly use hunting bullets but I have to play a bit more with some target bullets.


May 12, 2011, 12:47 AM
I don't believe the 223 (and maybe others calibers) are getting a fair deal with your testing. The comparison of high BC custom 6x45mm loads for example to typical 55gr and 62gr ammo when much higher BC 75gr "match" loads exist seems to over look the obvious.

May 12, 2011, 12:48 AM
If you do not have a .308 win you should have one. It should be mandatory in every home or farm! LOL!!!
I use both in autoloaders and bolt and what can I tell you. It is a little boring now as I shot this all my life but the round is one of the best rounds ever devised. Very reliable in all conditions. When I take a .308win out to a hunt or to the range is like going out with an old good and reliable friend. Nothing new exciting but always you can count on the round to deliver.


May 12, 2011, 01:22 AM
I don't believe the 223 (and maybe others calibers) are getting a fair deal with your testing. Your comparison of high BC custom 6x45mm loads to typical 55gr and 62gr ammo when much higher BC 75gr "match" loads exist seems to over look the obvious. It would be nice to see a 75gr Amax or 80gr SMK load tossed in there as well.

May 12, 2011, 09:08 PM
Good idea. I have 223REM Hornady 75gr HPBT and 77gr Berger VLD spreads and ballistic charts, let me find them and pull them out.

May 12, 2011, 10:07 PM
Interesting thread. A little surprised no one suggested a 6mmAR or for even a little more speed, the 6mmAR Turbo. Both are necking down 6.5 Grendel cases. So if the Grendel is up for consideration than toss these 2 into the ring.

Unfortunately I don't have experience with either yet, just a 223 Rem and a non-black rifle 243 Win, but they seem like an interesting option depending on OP primary purpose. Since I already have 243 bullets, I'd prefer something in 6mm over 6.5 or 6.8. Guess that is a nit.

The case seems better suited for long 100-108gr match type bullets, but I suppose the 6mmx45 would work reasonably well up to 100gr, but to get the max power & velocity (+200 to 300fps) compared to the 6mmx45, and and an excellent 6mm BC's you need the larger case. I do like the lower cost of entry with the 6mmx45 though. Same bolt, mag, etc.

May 12, 2011, 10:51 PM
Hi ssyoumans,
In deed very good rounds. Read the charts. The turbo is there. I don't have that one so I put the turbo between some of the others for reference.

May 13, 2011, 12:04 AM
Here the high BC 223 charts you wanted....
The .223 Rem 75gr bullets are awesome.
I have not tested 80gr bullets in the .223REM. I only restrict my shooting to the ones that fit in the magazines, sometimes a promag, cammega or VLD mags that can seat longer bullets but 80gr I cannot do it. Only single feed so I do not use them at all therefore I do not have the data. Even with other upper I have in 1:7 rate of twist these .224 bullets take so much case space that the whole load starts to loose effectiveness. For a bolt rifle or single feed then great. My 223 chamber is nothing really special, standard wylde.

May 14, 2011, 10:47 AM
How many grains of H322 do you use with the accubonds? I am going to see if I can reproduce your load.
If I can I would provide references at 100,200, 300 and 500 yards with the 16"barrel.

May 14, 2011, 12:41 PM
Sent via PM.

May 15, 2011, 01:24 AM
You've got me day dreaming about a project gun.

Where can I buy a 6X45 barrel?;)

May 15, 2011, 02:10 AM
I would go for the Lothar Walter. The 6x45 and 6.8SPC I got from them were very good. Look also in the 6.8SPC too. Whatever caliber get a good barrel and you will enjoy it more.
For me, a good barrel and a good scope are paramount.

May 16, 2011, 11:04 PM
Sorry for the late pics about the 'long ogive' magazine.
I am done with version 1 and I am going for version 2.
Reliability is not 100% there but now I need what I need todo to make it faster and better. One thing I am learning is that building a new magazine is not as simple as it seems at first. Like many other things, I guess! LOL!!!

The idea is to put both .223 80gr and 6mm 100gr+ bulltes and seat them as far as we can for long range shooting and have them feed reliably w/o need for single feed. For that we need to use the center rib in the mag as some other modifications. So far the prototype looks horrible but functional nevertheless.

These are some load we want to be able to feed from a magazine:
From left to right...
- 6x45 6mm 85gr Sierra GK.
- .233 REM 55gr FMJ reload.
- 6x45 6mm 105gr Hornady Amax
- 6x45 6mm 100gr Sierra SP hunting round.

I could not find the 77gr VLDs I had in .223 but you get the idea....

This is the first prototype magazine after all the work on it...

Detail of the center-stack in the back....

Aerial view...


Sorry about the picture quality, the phone is not the best. I promise
better quality with 'long ogive' magazine version 2.0.
NExt time I promise some range pics and/or videos when testing
this in real fire mode.


May 17, 2011, 08:12 PM
..Also the max length is going to vary depending of the bullet's secant ogive.
You need to find the max value, subtract at least 0.010" and then see if this
will fit in the max length of the new magazine.
That is what I do with every bullet. All cases are measured to be the same regardless
what case, with trimming if necessary.

May 18, 2011, 10:11 PM
I got the new magazines to continue with the version 2.0.
This should go faster and better. I am going to use aluminum vs. plastic to build the center stack channel for the bullets.

May 21, 2011, 08:52 PM
From left to right...

.243/6mm Barnes TTSX 80gr
.243/6mm Barnes TSX 85gr
.243/6mm Sierra Game King 85gr
.243/6mm Hornady SP 87gr
.243/6mm Sierra Game King 90gr FMJ
.243/6mm Sierra Game King 100gr
.243/6mm Hornady A-MAX 105gr (Target bullet)

.224 55gr FMJ (GI load)
.224 62gr Penetrator (green tip)
.224 70gr Barnes TSX
.224 75gr Hornady BTHP match
.224 77gr Barnes VLD

Barnes TSX in any caliber are extremely effective.
Partitions too. I am now testing their Nosler E-tip in 30caliber.
Sierra Game kinds do the job well too. Barnes have been my
best hunting bullet but for long range I prefer the partitions,
Sierras or even the Swift Sirocco II or Bergers hunting VLDs that have the best ballistic coefficient.

May 21, 2011, 10:40 PM
From left to right...

Sorry, but do we really need two .243x45 Project threads now? The last several updates to this thread are duplicated in your other.

May 22, 2011, 10:20 AM
I dont have any problem with your analysis , however , if your gonna list an assortment of calibers , dont just show the narrative to the rounds you personally love!

List all the rounds and list what is good about them and bad , and if you have the specs list them as well!

It will alleviate all the negative comments!

SF Devildog!

May 22, 2011, 10:27 AM
I agree but It is faster to document the ones that I already have pictures and data summarized from documenting other projects.
I am working on the 7.62x39 right now. This one I shoot mostly factory but I will do my best to document them all the best I can nevertheless.
As I said I love them all.

May 22, 2011, 10:32 AM
Here is a nice summary of the .223 Rem Ackley Improved.
I don't have this one but I am posting this courtesy of sscoyote that sent me his link....

Very interesting round and experiences.

May 22, 2011, 09:48 PM
Sorry, but do we really need two .243x45 Project threads now?

WE? who is we? The "Firearms American Idol Panel" of the internet forums? Come on now!

These threads take a lot of work to prepare and document. I am doing this for fun, in good faith and without profit and encourage folks to participate in a positive way. A couple of friends that exchange experiences in some of these calibers asked me to put the updates corresponding the 6x45 under that AR project.

If someone doesn't like this or any of my other posts I recommend they do not follow them. FOLLOWING A POST IS OPTIONAL, NOT MANDATORY. Select the remove subscription and done!.

I personally do not care about any senseless opinions whether they are from known sources or perfect strangers.

May 23, 2011, 10:20 AM
WE? who is we? The "Firearms American Idol Panel" of the internet forums? Come on now!

These 2threads take a lot of work to prepare and documenttwice. I am doing this twicefor fun, in good faith and without double profit and encourage folks to participate in a positive way. A couple of friends that exchange experiences in some of these calibers asked me to put the updates corresponding the 6x45 under that AR project so i copied/pasted them here too.

If someone doesn't like this or any of my other posts I recommend they do not follow either of them. FOLLOWING A POST(s) IS OPTIONAL, NOT MANDATORY. Select the remove subscriptions and done!.

I personally do not care about any senseless opinions whether they are from known sources or perfect strangers. Not sure who this was directed at.
Very well, continue to dupe to your delight. I just thought this thread had potential to satisfy the thread title and description in the 1st post. If we (oh, the collective forum that chooses to participate, not the "idol" panel) want to carry on two identical threads, so be it. It isn't my bandwidth, and as you correctly pointed out, I don't have to follow anymore.

May 23, 2011, 12:31 PM
How about the 30 remington Ar with 130 Barnes Tipped TSX , they are very accurate out of mine. They are about 2800 FPS.

May 23, 2011, 08:46 PM
How about the 30 Remington Ar with 130 Barnes Tipped TSX?
I think we can make it work. I have already tested the Hornady 150 gr GMX for accuracy in the winter but we have to repeat this test for spreads. Next one is going to be the 165gr GMX. We will have to wait until later in the year (too many projects) but I will make a separate article on these great case and upper alone.

May 23, 2011, 08:55 PM
You cant do Pro / Con without a fixed perspective. ( +/- for WHAT?).

The next person who comes along is going to have different needs and applications, so its all subjective.

May 23, 2011, 09:11 PM
I agree, it is all subjective to the purpose and special circumstances of each and everyone. Anyhow someone can find here enough information about a specific load, bullet, barrel, experiences, etc... that can be used for general information purposes.

June 1, 2011, 10:59 PM
This was the AR tested this week. .223 RRA National Match barrel with Midwest Industries floating rail system. The scope is not a great one this one but also not too bad. It gets the job done.

As we confirmed it loves some of the hot 69SMKs and the Barnes TSX. We got several groups in the 1/4MOA. I am going to test with the swift hunting bullets and will post all the spread info...

Someone suggested that 3 round groups are not good. Well this might be for them but this is the way they are done... 1 shot and then 2 shots withing 10 seconds and Done!. Besides any tactical training rules were written anywhere this style was there for kritters(coyotes) at long range and as some of you probably know coyotes do not hung out for a 2nd shoot too long so we train as we use them in the field. As it happens some military tactics are very similar foundationally. Good thing coyotes are not trained in countersniping! LOL!.

June 2, 2011, 12:27 AM
Choices, choices, choices. I was just about ready to pull the trigger on a new 6.8 complete upper when I ran across this post. Now what do I do? You really peaked my interest in the 6mm-223 since it is my favorate caliber 6mm (243). But the cost of a 243 upper would be a bit more than I want to pay (but I do reload for them) and love the results in my bolt gun. (just don't like the barrel life for the 243).

While I feel the 30 RAR, 50 Beawolf and the AR-10 (.308) are more gimicks to sell rifles than anything I would want to use in an AR. Your disortation on the 6.5, 6mm-233 and 6.8 I find more acceptable for an AR type rifle.

Now where do we go from there?? Any hard reference material would be appreciated.


Well, as long as we are posting pictures. Nothing fancy but it gets the job done. And Jake those 62 grain pulled steel cores are working out fairly good.

June 2, 2011, 01:00 AM
The .223 Rem 75gr bullets are awesome.

Yes they are!!! When used in the right type of gun. (.130 MOA at 100 yards)


June 2, 2011, 08:23 PM
Hi Jim,
Choices? just get them all!! at the time of course. LOL!

The .223 rem alone has come long ways. We are not caught in the old rounds, powders and bullets of 1965 when the AR came out.
The best thing about the AR-15 is its modularity with not too much excess meat and weight for many uses.
I can hardly find any game that cannot be taken down by a .223 70gr TSX bullet, obvioulsy do not try to take down a grizly at 400 yards with this case but at moderate ranges are devastating like any other caliber.

So the same wiht the 6mmx45 or the 6.8spc upgrade. Plenty (and leftoever included) for most average folks what to do. White tail, black bear, Varmints, Mother in law (LOL!), etc...

In the varmint the .223 bullets are hard to beat but in the larger game/higher grain bullet department they start to lack of some options. In any case there are very few things a 70gr TSX bullet moving at 2800fps cannot do. Actually any TSX if you know about what they do. At the moment I have a total of zero game lost to these bullets in any caliber from 70gr .223 launched from a AR upper to the 285gr .338 launched from a bolt rifle and lapua case.
I think for all ranges some 6mm bullets will give you a great assortment of options and cost per round will be pretty acceptable if you stick to the 6x45.
The 6.8 will provide some amazing bullets but ballistic coeficients will be limited for AR department use.

I would carefully select an assortment of bullets based on the performance characteristics you really need and then decide on the round and the barrel, twist, etc... I think that the 6.8 and 6x45 will give you better barrel life due to the lower speed and less throat erosion so they should both give pretty good barrel life by any standards.

June 2, 2011, 08:35 PM
by the way... I forgot to say ...

beautiful systems you got there man!

June 3, 2011, 08:40 PM
Did you check the ballistic charts posted here?....

Also check out a thread that I have for the 6mm project if that is the round you like...

Did you already think about the purpose for those bullets, budget, etc.?


September 7, 2011, 10:36 PM
I am going to update the charts in this thread with whatever comes out of this other new experiment...

September 17, 2011, 10:20 PM
Some new charts I just posted in the 6x45 review. Next is the 6.5mmx42 or the Blackout, whichever barrel shows up first.

These are the ballistic charts based on tests with the 1st barrel. It shows superior range and energy.
Great hunting system even at decent range. I had almost identical results with the Hornady Match HPBTs.
Although energy is nicely retained recoils is very mild. Obviously a little more
than the .223.

Here we can see how energy and speed is nicely held by the V-max.

It shows clearly 6x45 is a great 300 yards white-tail / pig rifle with close 1000ft/lb at 300 yards and
also a nice 500-600 yards coyote rifle for those who like the very long shots.

It shows clearly 6x45 is a great 300 yards white-tail / pig rifle with close 1000ft/lb at 300 yards and
also a nice 500-600 yards coyote rifle for those that like the very long shots.

These are some groups with 87gr SGKs and V-maxes. Today I didn't put a lot of time in the loads or the accuracy as I was running late and was doing things real quickly but so I was pleasantly surprised to see gruops below 1/2 MOA. one group here shot slowly gave .31 MOA. Other groups shot in rapid fire did stay nicely together.

For the full review I posted the link here...

September 18, 2011, 10:41 AM
AAAARGH! :fire: I didn't even get past the first response to this post and I'm already too pissed-off to finish it. Why is it that every time someone takes the time to sit down and write something they have obviously been thinking hard about, or performs some tests on something, the first reaction on this forum is to take a crap on whatever they have taken the time to post. It is really easy for the poo-poo-ers to criticize, but I don't see them taking the time to post anything thought provoking.

Ok, now I MIGHT be able to go back and read the rest of the post...

September 18, 2011, 10:56 PM
I am comparing all and finding a few more that I am considering building and there is something in each one that I love.
There is no better round, there are trade offs depending on purpose, budget and likes and dislikes.
So this is not to criticize or diminish any system, but to learn about ballistics and options.

Don't get frustrated. The more people join the more THE LOW ROAD we are going to see.

Some folks think they have some sort of entitlement to be heard above anyone else. I attribute this to the most primitive form of ignorance. Only with good manners, listening and a collaborative attitude there is the basis for good things to happen. Questioning and expressing opinions is a healthy thing, only if done the proper way.

Nobody cares about those folks... 9mm vs 40 cal, 6.8 vs. grendel, mine vs. yours and all those arguments that sound like a broken record.
So don't worry be happy and enjoy the high road. There are plenty of good reviews and opinions among our fellow members.

November 15, 2012, 11:50 PM
I finally collected more data on all AR systems testing with commercial loads for those there are good commercial loads. I added the 308w to compare...
The numbers are discarded after bullets reach transonic range.
Rounds with poor ballistics like the Whisper/blackout and 7.62x39 run out of steam soon but I know the 7.62x39 can be pushed a little bit more.

November 16, 2012, 11:45 PM
Nice visuals, thanks.

November 20, 2012, 06:16 PM
My pleasure. I was pleasently surprised with the performance of the 6.8SPC loads from Wilson Tactical. Expensive but shooting very flat. A very powerful round in deed. Also the 6x45 from Corbon. Expensive too so I am working on replicating that with handloads. The classic russian and blackout run out of steam very fast as expected due to the poor ballistics. The 7.62x39 lapua is very accurate though. Also I loved the .223rem 80gr double tap. A very good round that starts slower but catches up fast due to a great bullet.

Here is the data from the spreads... The chrono is a RCBS Ammomaster

Energy here...

November 21, 2012, 12:44 AM
No offense but your analysis isn't much good.

Do you have experience with ANY of these cartridges?

Why, after someone has invested a lot of time thinking out and typing what is a good summary of the most popular AR calibers, does the first reply HAVE to be from someone being a complete D!ck?

I haven't even read the rest of the thread yet because the first reply made me want to nail my head to the floor.

November 21, 2012, 01:39 AM
The freedom of speech is great but it also has a downside. We have to listen to a lot of nonsense. I have been shooting ARs longer than some of those new-wave experts have been alive.

November 21, 2012, 09:51 AM
Thanks for the posts and thanks for your service

I went with 6.8 for many of the reasons you described

Bartholomew Roberts
November 21, 2012, 07:03 PM
Eh.. i have pretty much discounted everything 1stmarine posts since this thread (

A lot of interesting data; but I don't trust the source.

November 21, 2012, 08:04 PM
Here a drop chart from the same tests. The 6.5BR and PCC are non commercial wildcats so no commercial loads obviously. PCC I took from a friend upstate that tested on a BH built barrel using the same chrono. All very similar conditions. All charts adjusted to 300 yards zero.

November 21, 2012, 08:10 PM
Thanks for the posts and thanks for your service

I went with 6.8 for many of the reasons you described
My pleasure.
This is another load I was pleasantly surprised how well it performed...

In terms of accuracy the SSA 115gr OTM has been extremely accurate out of an ARP 18".

This was something I did quickly to show the POI shift and adjustment from v-max (very accurate in this barrel) to
the extremelly accurate and consistent SSA loads.
Now you do not see them...

Now you see them. This is all factory ammunition. No reloads.

This is the latest ARP 18" system. Simply amazing quality of parts. No exceptions...

November 24, 2012, 03:25 PM
The 6.5LBC. Another great alternative for hunting with authority. Super accurate too. Tested with Hornady 6.5Grendel 123Amax loads.

March 25, 2013, 04:56 PM
You still there brother? I am wondering, almost six months later, have you any new conclusions? I am building my first AR and am stuck between a 6X45 or 300BLK. I will hunt, compete IDPA and use it for self defence (I won't say SHTF). Your post and thoughts are appreciated. Thanks for hanging in there.

March 25, 2013, 05:28 PM
This is your quote describing 7.62x39.

how so?
I'd say in multiple applications this is a pretty impressive round. You say 223 can be a great white tail round, but I'd say x39 would make a better white tail round wouldn't you?
I'd say they're on par.

Neither kills deer any more or less dead within 200 hundred yards.

Barnes 55 gr copper solid hollow points, and 156 gr soft points put a hurtin on deer.

March 25, 2013, 05:53 PM
i can do an analysis even quicker

6x45mm = good for getting past 22 caliber deer hunting bans, not as accurate or any better than an 80 grain 223

300 aac blackout = fine for suppression, poor trajectory and not that great for more than suppression

6.5mm grendel = best for the longest range, but very wide body reduces mag capacity and can lead to feeding issues in higher rates of fire

6.8mm SPC = best overall, well-rounded for short to medium range use in a carbine

.223, best well rounded cartridge offering range, reliability, and low cost

and 7.92x39 = feeds horribly if in an Ar15, great in an AK, but short bullet means it bleeds off energy and loses velocity much quicker, greatly reducing its range

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