[Kestryll]

I need some hard data for a co-worker who doesn't understand that our "protecting' the mountian lions leads to more attacks due to overpopulation. We are in Cali and he is a mountain biker who still doesn't see the value of carrying for defense.
Anyone have any good web sites or references I can show him?
Thanks.

[Baba Louie]

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

Still and all, you've got a better chance statistically of being mauled by an auto accident in CA than a Felix the cat

[moa]

Historically, statistically you have a very low chance of being attacked, but notice the upsurge of attacks in the 1980s and 90s. I am sure the reasons are the loss of habitat and the lions getting familar with human presense.

I think I would carry some kind of serious weapon even it was only a large hunting knife.

[Ryder]

Show him this picture.

http://www.huntinfo.com/bearpaw/99pics/pycat.jpg

[El Tejon]

Magic pixie dust! Where's my magic pixie dust?!?!:p

[Jim March]

So long as you stay alert and don't get jumped, even a fairly small adult armed with a 5" or more knife can deal with a megakitty. They're really not such "hard targets"...you'll take damage, no question, but a boar is in my opinion far more dangerous and a black bear potentially worse yet.

Many people have managed to drive off the kitties bare-handed or with a nearby rock or whatever. Strangle it, kick it, FIGHT, they're not all that determined an opponent. Obviously from the above pic, there ARE some big ones :eek: but even then...they're damned smart predators, even minimal recieved damage means dinner wasn't worth it.

NOTE: if there are kittens around a mama, the above bits on "determination" go totally out the window!!!

[Jim March]

Ah, if you check the specific years of attacks and compare with droughts, you'll find deer were driven out of the mountains and down into people's gardens for food :rolleyes:. The kitties followed the deer.

You'll find that's a bigger factor than hunting.

[SnWnMe]

Here ya go fellow Kalifornian:

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

Note that in the 1990s only three folks have been killed. But there have been alot of confrontations. As a fellow mtn biker, I sort of think that the danger is overrated. I am more concerned about rattlesnakes (which I see (or jump or run over) ALL the time and two legged predators who might want my bike (it will cost you 2 Wilsons)

But I keep a knife handy. I wish I could have a gun but...

Aside from the law, one concern about bringing a firearm to a ride is: Where do you carry it? Mtn bikers who are not closet roadies wear cargo shorts w/ cargo pockets, a bad place for a pistol. It will flop around alot. IWB is out too. In fact, anywhere on your body is a bad idea. Would you like a loaded pistola to be attached to you when you do the inevitable Superman over the bars?

Hanging on the backpack straps? An errant branch will take it from you.

So keep it in a pack? Then the ready accessibility to a weapon is gone.

Then there is also weight. This is like horse racing. Less is more. Racer folks spend $$$ to get that bike below 23#. Eschewing alot of things to carry the least amount of poundage.

[gunsmith]

I bet the relatives of the dead guy wished he was packing one of those ultra light .357 snubbies so popular nowadays. Another concern are dogs,every serious biker has his share of dangerous dog stories.
I got this from a little researching on the web***
In a 1991 journal article, University of California researcher Paul Beier listed "53 cougar attacks on humans in the United States and Canada from January 1, 1890 through December 31, 1990 (101 years) ...." Some attacks involved two victims. Beier contrasted the record of cougar attacks to other risks:


Each year in the U.S. there are about 12 human deaths resulting from over 5,000 bites by rattlesnakes ..., 40 deaths due to bee (Hymenoptera) stings, and 3 deaths due to bites of black widow spiders .... Dogs annually kill 18-20 people and inflict suture-requiring injuries on 200,000 U.S. residents .... In a single recent year (1979) there were 86 U.S. deaths due to lightning strikes .... Thus cougar attacks are much rarer than other hazards from animals or nature. Nonetheless, these attacks have increased in the last 2 decades, probably because of increased numbers of cougars and humans during that time.... Simultaneously, human use of wildlands has grown, increasing the potential for encounters. [Beier, 1991, pp. 409-410.]
http://home.inreach.com/kumbach/mtlion.html
Mountain lions ordinarily approach unseen and kill by a bite to the back of the neck that severs the spinal cord. Their teeth and claws are adapted to this method. A a person confronting a mountain lion should not turn away, should not run, should not crouch, and should not "play dead." Doing any of those things gives a person a profile like the mountain lion's prey and gives the lion an opportunity to strike at the back of the neck. The only exception might be when a person can reach safety very quickly, as by entering a door only a few feet away.
Rather, it is best to stand up, spread arms, coat, and so on, and face the lion--look as large as possible. Yelling and other noise-making can frighten the lion away. Throwing objects at the lion can help to drive it away. If attacked, a person should fight back aggressively. Hikers might be well advised to carry a police whistle or a small air horn--and perhaps a sturdy walking stick--for use in such encounters.
Or you could carry a small lightweight revolver?!

[gunsmith]

thought he should "play dead" ...who knows...
I don't care what the "rules" are I am gonna carry in wilderness areas.
I don't want to be the next big item on THR bear/mountain lion threads;)

[TallPine]

In a single recent year (1979) there were 86 U.S. deaths due to lightning strikes
Okay, I give up.

What caliber does one use against lightning ...? :D

[ACP230]

Don't bring a mountain bike to a mountain lion fight!

[Lone Star]

www.smith-wessonforum.com See the topic in the Lounge section. The title is something and "disgusting". Many good posts.

Also: www.lostworldtv.net Click on Message Boards, then click on "Talk About the Lost World", where most Off Topic posts go. The topic (which I began) is clearly labled as being about the Latest California Cougar Attack.
You'll find useful references in both places.

The knife forums have also covered this. For the record, I interviewed a man in British Columbia who successfully cut the throat of a cougar attacking him about a year ago. The knife was Schrade's version of the lockblade Buck No. 110. Schrade calls it the LB 7. He was nearly killed before he could get it out and opened.

I do know of the case in South Africa where Harry Wolhuter stabbed a lion in the heart as it dragged him off. The lion died, and its hide was displayed for many years in Kruger National Park, where Wolhuter was a warden.

One CBS female newscaster claimed that this latest episode is the first in California in 18 years. As the "Lost World" board will document, there have been at least 8 since 1992.

Lone Star

[Art Eatman]

"One CBS female newscaster claimed that this latest episode is the first in California in 18 years."

Well, yeah, other than that woman killed near Sacramento, much less than 18 years ago...Six years or so? Disremember.

We've had several mountain-lion threads in the Hunt forum, both here and back at TFL.

Art

[Jim March]

Does anybody else find it funny that a guy is posting in this thread by the name of "Eatman"?

:neener:

[Kentucky Rifle]

Wow. That is one big cat. When I was a kid, I remember my Great-Grandmother talking about big cats in Kentucky. She even said some were black. Long time ago.

KR

[Iain]

I'm loving these mnt lion threads of late - something I actually know a little about. KR - sure Art can correct me if I am wrong, but lions demonstrate quite a wide colour variance, very light tan to very very dark brown.

I have no first hand experience of this, but evidence I have seen suggests that Jim is right, they aren't determined opponents because they mostly rely on surprise bites to the back of the neck/head region to prey. A frontal attack is not their preferred method. Of course this leaves the worrying thought that they prefer to sneak up and despatch you quickly - you are not likely to know much about it should the plan work.

As to the use of a knife, remember reading a story about a guy who was canoeing down the Zambezi and stayed in a riverside hut overnight. Awoke and saw a lioness looking at him through the glass. Got up and woke his companions, by the time they were awake she was gone. Then she crashed through the window at the other end of the cabin and made straight for him, ignoring the others. Got his head in her mouth, but he drew his knife and the second thrust punctured her heart, killing her quite quickly. Luckily for him she was very old and very toothless, probably turning to humans as an easier target than most other prey.

[dischord]

I've said it before ... clown suits ... the secret is to wear clown suit. Lions won't attack people in clown suits because they know clowns taste funny.

[TallPine]

People wearing 357 magnum revolvers on their belts taste funny, too ....

:neener:

[Deepdiver]

What caliber does one use against lightning ...?

....wear your tin foil hat, and hold on to an aluminum lawn chair :D !


Actually, I hunt mountain lions here in CO (have also hunted them in AZ)(both, without dogs, BTW - yeah, it's tough, but fun) - and,

Observation #1: them little kitties are hard to find, track, get a decent shot at, etc....i.e. I wouldn't get too lathered up about running into one in the wild unless there have been sightings (actual cats, or tracks/scat, mucho deer carcasses, etc..). You are much more likely to run into a two legged predator - so I would just plan on defending myself against them (this would prepare you for a cat, in any case).

Observation #2: they kinda like to hang out in areas with heavy populations of deer - i.e. communities that have banned deer hunting in the foothills close by ought to get smart and allow a thinning of the deer population - sorta like closing down some of the fast food franchises for the mountain lions. So, the safest places to go mountain biking and hiking, camping, etc. are those areas that are open to hunting on a regular basis.

Observation #3: when anyone goes into the wilderness I think they should be aware of their location - i.e. it ain't a shopping mall or a city park, so there is an increased (although still remote) possibility of running into wild animals (4-legged). So take appropriate precautions. Whenever I hear about someone being mauled by a bear or attached by a mountain lion, it saddens me, but at the same time, I have to wonder where they thought they were - Disneyland ?

I know, I started to rant - but I feel much better now..............

[TallPine]

them little kitties are hard to find
Not so concerned about finding them as them finding me. :)

We haven't see her, or her cousin, yet, but one of the neighbors had a tawny scrawny lion raise a litter on their place last winter (before we moved out here from town). Mama lion would kill a deer and their big tibetan mastiff would drag it home to their deck. Kitty would drag it back off, and dog would drag it back in. Finally, kitty starts stashing her deer kills in trees.

The other neighbors also saw her from time to time.

Whenever I hear about someone being mauled by a bear or attached by a mountain lion, it saddens me, but at the same time, I have to wonder where they thought they were - Disneyland ?
A year or so ago, some guy in AZ was sleeping outside and woke up to a bear chewing on his head. He pulls a 38 revolver from under his pillow and empties it into the bear. Bear wanders off and dies.

Me, I stay indoors during thunderstorms, and carry a 6gun outside. :)


get smart and allow a thinning of the deer population
Well, I did my part. Shot my deer from the deck last fall. :D

Only had 1 tag though .... :(

[Kestryll]

The main thing I was looking for was information on wether laws banning the hunting of mountian lions had lead to over population and more attacks.

[Topgun]

Her idea was to get a holster made for a dead chicken and carry that.

Lion comes.....toss chicken.

Yum yum.

:D

Senator Feinstein is introducing legislation to restrict chickens to no more than 2 legs.

[Frohickey]

how about a dead chicken with a lb of c4 and a 10 second fuse? :D

[Topgun]

Dead chicken, lasso, more guts than brains, camcorder.

:D

[birddog]

After reading that lengthy post on statistics, I am readying to gather the supplies and devise a 12 foot lightning arrestor for my bike, one end of which is a shark-style bang stick for dogs, and the other is a big bore single shot rifle for big cats and bears.

With my luck, the lightning would hit the thing, knock it out of whack, knock me off of my bike and into the waiting jaws of puppy/kitty/smokey.

What a way to go.

Heh heh.

[Jim March]

Or you could try what Felix used to use on Charlie.

Felix was a ferret...weighed about 1.75lbs. Cute little albino. Charlie was an INCREDIBLY strong housecat; due to a steady diet of ferret chow (high grade kitten food with as high a meat protein base as possible) in unlimited amounts (bowl always full), and near-constant wrasslin' with two playful ferrets, Charlie had "bulked up". He probably should have been about 7 pounds, instead he was closer to 9. And he *rippled*, his shoulders and hips literally bulged, his torso was a solid rope of muscle, there wasn't an ounce of fat on that cat *anywhere*. We used to call him "Arnold "Schwartzenkitty". He left the vet-techs that tried to trank him for his neuter job at 1 year old absolutely shell-shocked, it took three people and a blanket to get that damned cat under control (they used a needle right through the blanket to drug him!).

So he was a real handful for a small houseweasel :).

Felix figured out a counter.

He's wait until the cat got low enough, and grab it's head with both arms then flip it over on it's back. Then, approaching from the cat's front, he'd spread his back legs as wide as possible to keep the cat from rolling, and control it's head. Felix wouldn't use his teeth at all, he'd just lay his own muzzle alongside the cat's head and hang on with his arms.

Cats cannot reach over their heads to dislodge a "clinging attack" from that angle. Felix had figured this out, and would drive the cat absolutely bananas.

The relative size/strength of Felix versus Charlie would be equivelent to a 200lb human and an 800lb cat :eek:.

Would I personally try Felix's stunt? In a dire pinch mebbe...the biggest difference is that Felix and Charlie were *buddies*, they slept together, ate together, used the same litterbox ('cept Charlie would bury Felix's mess!).

Anyways.

That was one SMART ferret.

:)