[KeithCo88]

Hi folks

My first post, been a fan of THR since I became a gun owner since people seem to be pretty experienced & insightful. Hoping you can help me out:

I'm looking for a rifle that's NJ legal which will be both good for home protection and also fun (and not bank breaking) to shoot. I'll already have a Ruger 10/22; which is questionable from a home protection angle; but definitely fun to shoot since I can only get a castrated version of the S&W M&P 15-22. I had my eye on the Model 8 from Stag Arms, but same thing; I'm not willing to pay that much for a castrated gun. :banghead:

This pretty much leaves me with two options by my research, so interested to hear your opinions on the two options with regards to the following:
a) accuracy past 100 yards
b) long term reliability
c) anything else

The two guns are:
1) Berretta Cx4 Storm (in 45ACP because I already have the ammo for my 1911)
2) Ruger Mini 14 (tactical or ranch rifle)

or if you know of another semi-auto that is NJ legal

Thanks for your thoughts!
KeithCo88

[Double Vision]

Welcome!
I'm a big fan of the Mini-14.
Inexpensive to shoot, easy to handle, plenty accurate and reliable as can be.
And fun! :)
Good luck.

[FMJMIKE]

Ruger Mini-14.................:D

[Jeff F]

Another vote for a Mini. The new ones are pretty accurate to, not AR accurate but good enough drop coyotes out to 200 yards or so.

[surfinUSA]

Is the SKS legal there? They will do what you want and won't break the bank.

[TYFOOON]

SKS is a great call actually.

the Beretta is a great choice also but not really cheap to shoot unless you get it in 9mm. My pal had one and it was great in 9mm as a carbine.

[KeithCo88]

DoubleVision - do you know if the Mini 14 tactical model is NJ Legal? based on what I've seen it satisfies the rules (pasted below) even tho it has a flash suppressor. I'd really just like to get the shorter barrel length than the ranch rifle if possible.

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

a folding or telescoping stock;
a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
a bayonet mount;
a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
a grenade launcher;

[Ramone]

I am a fan of pistol caliber carbines, both for fun, and for home defense, and I do understand the caliber compatibility idea, but I'd suggest going to a 9mm. It's the next cheapest thing to shoot after .22LR.

The high points are hit or miss it seems, and the KelTecs are hard to find, but seem to be the best bet.

Accuracy past 100 yrds? marginal. within 100 ft? excellent.

[Furncliff]

Check to see if this is legal in N.J.

Hi Point Carbine, they are available in 9mm, 40S&W and .45acp

My .45 has been reliable, one fail to feed in 600 rounds. 100 yard accuracy will be a problem.

Great price excellent support from the maker, and a no BS warrantee.

Here's a recent thread about them.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=591913

Cabelas has had the 9mm on sale twice since the beginning of the year for $209. I found my .45 on line last winter for $260.

JMHO but I think these make good inexpensive HD weapons. If you have the $ to spend on amore expensive pistol caliber semi-auto rifle in addition to the Beretta check out the Marlin Camp 9 and Camp 45.

[rajb123]

My favorite rifle for home defense is a shotgun. Rifles are not well suited for this purpose.

[19-3Ben]

I know you asked only about semi-auto BUT, have you thought about a pistol caliber lever-gun?

For an HD rifle, I actually bought a Rossi M92, with 16"bbl in .357mag.

Points it has going for it:
-Short

-Light

-Minimal recoil.

-Out of the longer barrel, a .357mag is a good thumper (performance is just shy of a 30-30 or 7.62x39).

-If you want to shoot at 100 yards, you'd be well set if you use Hornady LeverEvolution ammo.

-If JHP ammo is restricted (which I believe it is in NJ) then you can use SJSP. I think you might be able to use LeverEvolution as well, but you should check local laws before counting on my advice.

-A blued steel and wood levergun is nice and innocent looking which may be a consideration given the legal environment.

-I bought my Rossi 6 months ago for $410- cheaper than either the Storm or Mini. If you want to get the Marlin, throw in another $100-150 on top of that Still cheaper that the other two carbines.

[Motega]

rifles are the worst choice IMO for home defense, and living in NJ only underlines that. You can hammer nails with a screwdriver but that's not a great choice of tools. Home defense, get a shotgun.

There are a LOT of rifles you can get here. In fact most are fine. I just got a FAL... there are options in every flavor except machine gun. You just have to watch folding stocks (honestly, I can't even complain about that, folding stocks are for trucks and paratroopers), high capacity mags, and a few others but otherwise you can get a version of pretty much whatever you want NJ legal and I'd hardly call it castrated. Really, do you CARE that your barrel isn't threaded? Flash hiders aren't even a good tactical choice in many circumstances, and silencers, well who really cares?
I love the FAL, it's really easy to clean and THAT'S a useful feature.

[wnycollector]

Another vote for the Hi-point TS rifles. My Father-in-laws GF has the 4595 as her HD rifle and two shooting buddies have the .40 versions. All are "Planet of the Apes" worthy from an aesthetic perspective, but man can they shoot. The 4595 has a bushnell trs 25 mounted on it and it shoots one ragged hole at 25 yards and all COM shots out to 75 yards.

[KeithCo88]

@Motega: agree shotguns are the best, i just don't find them fun to shoot. I've got my 1911 in 45acp for close quarters.

The thing that ticks me off about the "post-ban" weapons is that they aren't any cheaper and have fewer features. No I don't really care about a folding stock or a suppressor; but it clearly takes additional machine time on the part of the manufacturer to make those items and I'm not seeing it in my bottom line. The post-ban configurations should be cheaper!

Isn't the FAL explicitly named on the banned weapons list in NJ? And where'd you manage to find one? I'm trying to find a good range someplace close in PA where I can try these things out before I buy them.

What about the Kel-Tec SU-16A?

Thanks for the discussion guys; I appreciate your thoughts.

[Motega]

FAL is NJ legal if new, it doesn't have a collapsible stock and threaded muzzle. That's my understanding of pretty much everything except for the obvious high capacity mag law. As mentioned elsewhere NO ONE, including cops and at least up to county-level judges, knows the law unless they bother to specifically look it up. I got my FAL brand new from DSA. It is an SA58 and the only thing they had to do was solder on the muzzle break and make sure they sent it with 10 round mags.

Why does it cost more you ask? Because they DO have to do extra work to make them NJ/CA legal. They produce the rifles in "normal" configurations, and then have to do things like silver solder a muzzle guard on to make it NJ legal.

Fun to shoot and home defense aren't the same tool in some cases. Unless you live in Western NJ od Central NJ on a few acres, I firmly believe you have no business discharging a .30 caliber weapon in our avergae neighborhood in NJ. Especially if your house was built in most of the McMansion expansions of the 90's. I could hit my neighbor with a pellet gun through some of the walls in houses I've been in here ... a .308 would go clear through the next borough.

As far as a "good range" I belong to Cherry Ridge in NJ, we have several ranges including out to 300 yards and a silhouette yard, archery, muzzleloading, pistol, and a huge clubhouse. Lots of organized events and it is run well.

Open 360 days a year sunrise to sunset-

http://www.anjrpc.org/?cherry_ridge

[Smaug]

My favorite rifle for home defense is a shotgun. Rifles are not well suited for this purpose.

A big +1 on that.

But since you asked, here are the one's I'd consider:

Beretta Storm (any caliber)
Kel-Tec Sub2000 in 9mm
Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag; load Specials

At least the pistol caliber carbines are less likely to go through walls and outside into your neighborhood.

Do you live in a brick house? If so, then Mini14 would be good. Way better than SKS, as they're short enough to be more maneuverable indoors.

[Mikenmel08]

If you are looking for something short and in 223 cal, you should check out an STG556. Over all length is 28" with a 16"barrel.
Might be a little pricey though.
http://tapatalk.com/mu/18f6a0c4-deb6-bac4.jpg
This is my HD rifle.

[Motega]

Hmmm that might be one more thing I forgot, I think there is a minimum length for rifle calibers in NJ too.

[Mikenmel08]

I know federal law is 26 inches but your state law might be different. ?

[doorman]

Legal in NJ?

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx326/ruzick/NJLegal.jpg

Maybe. Just Maybe.

[Mikenmel08]

Lmao, Priceless:) From what I was just reading online about NJ laws, that might be his only option. Man are they harsh.

[Motega]

absolutely illegal. That's an extended mag.

Also water guns must be under 3 oz.

[KeithCo88]

wow i just looked at how much the FAL costs...i think i'll go with the mini-14 for now based on cost and a bunch of reviews I've gone through. I briefly considered the kel-tec sa16 but people have seen some downsides on long-term life of the gun frame and barrel.

now i just need to find a place that isn't going to rip me off. i'll probably just drive to cabelas in PA to buy it

[Horny Toad]

I agree with the comments that a rifle isn't a good first choice for home defense. I have an 870P and a bunch of handguns to choose from for that.

As for a rifle, what's your budget? I bought a RRA Elite CAR A4 last year and it's been great. Sure, it has a muzzle brake instead of a flash hider and an A2 buttstock instead of a collapsible, but I wouldn't call it "castrated". Not having those two features doesn't make it any less deadly or accurate.

[JustinJ]

With the right round a .223 can make a great HD round. Many rounds actually tend to fragment and break apart much more so than pistol calibers. I'm not familiar with NJ laws, and greatful for not needing to be, but is there any configuration of AR or AK74 you can legally own there?

[Motega]

I'm guessing you are looking at prices on DSA's web site; I don't know why they post those ridiculous prices as everyone gets "dealer pricing' from what I understand which is about 40% off list. I guess because if you do all the fancy trigger work and gunsmithing you end up only about 15-20% under what is listed.

I think I paid $1700-1800 for mine and that includes $200 worth of trigger work, extra mags, the Robar coating internally, and some other stuff.
If I were to do it again I would look for a Used Steyr STG-58 and it would probably end up around $1200 for the same gun milsurplus. They can be had for under $800 if you are patient and willing to buy something perhaps cosmetically flawed.

[rscalzo]

Rifle for home defense in an urban area is not the best. As far as an AR, the loss of a bayonet lug, that in most cases is unusable anyway, and a pinned stock which is rarely if ever collapsed shouldn't defer you from getting one. My RRA CMP is more accurate than the same model with a A2 FH installed.

But as a home defense, the length makes movement through a structure difficult at best not to mention the fact the normal 55 to 62 grain loads will penetrate several layers of sheet rock normal in today's modern construction.

You may want to separate the needs and stick to just a decent rifle for range use and leave the HD to a more suitable firearm.

I'm not familiar with NJ laws
NJ laws do not restrict ammo for home defense for the most part.

STG556
They were originally a NJ company located in our town. A very nice collection in their gun safe. We still have a SSG given to the department years ago. Unfortunately we don't have a suitable range nearby to use it's capabilities.

[Horny Toad]

.....is there any configuration of AR or AK74 you can legally own there?

I don't know anything about AK's, but order an AR with a fixed stock, no flash hider or bayonet lug, a 10 round mag and you're good to go. We have a 15 round mag limit here, so I use 15 round permanently modified Pmags. They're great.

[PPS43]

a) accuracy past 100 yards
[...]
1) Berretta Cx4 Storm (in 45ACP because I already have the ammo for my 1911)

CX4, especially in .45ACP, is not going to be very useful past 100 yards. Too much bullet drop. It is good for home protection, though.

Maybe Mini 30? At shorter distances (say, within 200 yards) I prefer 7.62x39 to .223.

[PPS43]

Rifle for home defense in an urban area is not the best.

Really? My groups with a rifle are tighter than with a handgun at the same distance. Follow-up shots with a semi-auto rifle are faster than with a shotgun. I don't need two hands to operate a semi-auto rifle at home defense distances.

But as a home defense, the length makes movement through a structure difficult at best

Muzzle of CX4 is at approximately the same distance in front of me as the muzzle of a handgun at full extension.

not to mention the fact the normal 55 to 62 grain loads will penetrate several layers of sheet rock normal in today's modern construction.

Any effective defensive round will penetrate several layers of sheet rock. Soft-point (not FMJ) .223 will actually penetrate fewer layers than most pistol-caliber bullets, or self-defense shotgun loads. Counterintuitive, but true. There is a reason law enforcement agencies are replacing MP5s with AR-15s.

[Paladin7]

Keith,

I think you are asking for a few different things that may not get you to what you really want. Based on your original post you asked for the following:

1. a gun that is NJ legal
2. Good for home protection
3. Fun
4. Not bank breaking to shoot

Then you asked about two semi auto's in regards to

a. accuracy past 100 yards
b. long term reliability
c. any other considerations

To satisfy requirements 1-4 and b, I would have to say that what you want is a lever action carbine in 357 magnum, like a Marlin 1894c, 1894css (stainless), Rossi 92, or Winchester or Mossberg 94.

I don't think accuracy past 100 yards fits with your other requirements. How far past 100 yards are you talking about and what kind of accuracy are you looking for? Let's just take this requirement off the table for now.

Here's why a 357 lever action makes the most sense in my opinion.

1. You live in the People's Republic of NJ. If you ever have to defend yourself with your rifle, its an All American Lever Action, not some Evil Assault Weapon.

2. A 357 or even a 38 out of an 18" carbine barrel is a whole different thing. The 357 is in 30 30 territory = very effective against man sized targets

3. The lever action can be topped off without having to remove a magazine

4. The lever action is very accurate out to 100 or 150 yards. Not bolt gun accurate, but accurate enough for man sized targets.

5. The lever action in 357 is very cheap to feed...38's can be purchased or reloaded for very little money.

6. Few guns are more fun to shoot than a good lever action carbine - ask the guys around here who own one

7. The Marlins, Winchesters/Mossbergs, Rossi's are all very reliable

What's not to like?

All the best with your choice.

[rscalzo]

no flash hider
Compensator's are legal. Actually more effective except somewhat louder.

[Horny Toad]

Compensator's are legal. Actually more effective except somewhat louder.

Correct. Flash hiders are not legal.

[KeithCo88]

yeah the AR rules are pretty much no flash suppressor (b/c they all have pistol grips) no mags over 10 rounds and no collapsible stocks. Also no bayonette lug, but i haven't seen many with that.

I found a mini-14 tactical for $755 from my local dealer so may get that...just need to wait for them to get the 5rd version in. For some reason they have the 20rd even tho they can't sell it to anybody in state

I'm not a good enough shooter to get the value of the extra accuracy from an AR, plus I've seen some decent footage of a mini-14 being reasonably accurate (nuttnfancy on youtube) and since it's much cheaper I'll probably go with that as my learning gun for the .223. Down the road I'll probably try out some ARs or maybe look at a .308; but right now price is an issue for me and I need to keep the whole purchase (extra mags, safe, cleaning supplies) under $1000

[KeithCo88]

@Paladin7

Thanks, I appreciate your logical separation of my requirements. I've actually never shot a lever action but my initial fear would be: how hard is it to get rapid follow-up shots? I'd imagine by the sheer nature of introducing the extra movement of the lever action you're going to lose a) time and b) target acquisition

Again I'm not a hunter and have no experience so I may get torn apart for that comment, but interested to hear from experienced folks.

Thanks!

[Horny Toad]

Keith,

Rapid follow-up shots? For what? You say "home defense" and then you mention shooting at 100 yards. Is the 100 yards the "fun rifle" element? If you're shooting a bad guy 300 feet away, it no longer falls under "home defense". Unless of course you live in a house the size of an aircraft hangar. :D

Do you live alone? Are you in a house or apartment? If a house, how close are your neighbors? Just things to consider because in a defensive shooting scenario, there's a very good chance you will miss your target. Likely more than once. You are responsible for where your bullets are flying. Yes, protecting yourself and your loved ones is priority #1, and you'll be in a legal poopstorm whether the shoot was "legal" or not, but you sure don't want to add dead or injured neighbors to the mix. That's why a few people have said (here and in the past), that a handgun or a shotgun (with the proper load) is probably your best bet for a true "home defense" weapon. Fun gun? Anything goes.

Just my two cents.

[Paladin7]

Keith to answer your question...surprisingly fast. Check out some of the youtube videos of guys rapid firing lever actions...

You also will not loose target acquisition since the lever can be manipulated while the gun is mounted in the firing position.

You should check out some videos then try one for yourself.

[KeithCo88]

cool, i think HornyToad is right and i've confused my purposes. I'll stick w/my 1911 for home defense and concentrate on a fun gun that doesn't break the bank.

I will give a lever action a try since they're on the inexpensive side.

Thanks guys!

[Paladin7]

You will really like a lever action. I'd suggest you check out a Marlin 1894css (stainless, if you can find one) or an 1894c (blue).