[msparks]

Are there any statistics on what the "average" bad guy uses as far as bullets go?

I would imagine that bad guys kill more people than cops do or even legally armed citizens.

We talk about the best bullet/caliber etc. The best load or hollow point etc.

What are the BG's using on average? I'm guessing they don't walk into the gun store and ask for Hornady TAP or Gold Dots or something like that.

If I had to guess they either use what was in the gun already (stolen gun) or they go buy the cheapest stuff they can find?

If you know of any studies post em up. If you have your own opinion lets hear it.

[Sam1911]

Interesting question. I don't know of any studies of this information -- it would be interesting to hear of one.

"Bad Guys" may be lots of different things and may come from various social strata. Some may be using whatever was loaded in a stolen gun when they acquired it (which could be 'most anything). Others may be walking right into a gun shop or WalMart and buying ammo just like any of us would. I'd think the same forces that would drive "our" purchases -- or at least those of the "average" gun owner population -- would drive theirs. Some will be looking for whatever is cheap. Some may be looking for the best and baddest rounds they can buy. While we may be intending to go punch paper, they probably have other targets in mind.

Descriptive adjectives like "hollow-point," "Gold Dot," "Hydroshok," and even "Black Talon" work to sell ammo to "us" but those folks who might prey on others have also heard those words and are just as likely to be looking for the good stuff.

At the very least, someone looking for the super-baddest ammo they can get can always just pick the most expensive box on the shelf.

There are some common misconceptions about "the bad guys" which include the idea that they are ignorant, they don't practice, they're cowards, their weapons are lousy, etc. None of those things is universally true. Some studies have indicated that certain violent criminals do take the time to practice with their guns more often than the average police officer or gun-owning citizen. And it is probably wise to remember that the bad guys are part of the same society that we belong to, so if you've been influenced by media coverage and/or advertisements of super-lethal bullets, they probably have been as well.

[ForumSurfer]

That would be an interesting set of statistics to see!

There are some common misconceptions about "the bad guys" which include the idea that they are ignorant, they don't practice, they're cowards, their weapons are lousy, etc. None of those things is universally true. Some studies have indicated that certain violent criminals do take the time to practice with their guns more often than the average police officer or gun-owning citizen. And it is probably wise to remember that the bad guys are part of the same society that we belong to, so if you've been influenced by media coverage and/or advertisements of super-lethal bullets, they probably have been as well.

That sounds reasonable.

I was in walmart once buying ammo. The guy in front of me was wearing all kinds of Cincinnati Reds gear (wasn't baseball season) and some blood tattoos to boot. He was buying 380 and .25 of the cheapest variety. Does that mean they all do the same? Probably not.

[walking arsenal]

I've been told that they mostly use the ammo that's in the gun when they steal it. This is from when I was in LEO school though so it's old data.

I had a guy come into a shop I worked at once, reach into his pants, pull out a glock "Fo tay", and ask me for some gat ammo.

I told him it was back ordered.

[merlinfire]

Whatever they were able to steal out of boxes on the shelves at your local walmart.

If you've ever bought a box of ammo that had a few missing, that's why.

[Smaug]

merlinfire: My Walmart has ammo in a locked case. They'd have to break the glass door and cause quite a scene. Is it different at your Walmart?

The only ammo that's out on the shelves is BBs, pellets, and bulk shotgun ammo.

[Trebor]

There's no stats on this. Who would keep them?

The best you'll get is "anecdotal" evidence. Basically first or second person stories from cops on what they've found on bad guys.

I've heard things ranging from bad guys with pistols loaded with .40 JHP's to one guy who loaded .22's in a .38 revolver. He wrapped duct tape around the cartridge to make it fit. (Wish I would have saved that article)

Assume the bad guy is competent and skilled and you are less likely to underestimate him.

[lemaymiami]

Most of what's been posted in this thread is valid from my experience. Over a career that spanned 1973 to 1995 I did see one definite trend in weapons/ammo for idiots on the street and that was a general improvement in quality and type. I figure that the same information explosion that changed the world didn't escape the notice of bad actors. I used to suggest to young cops that they make a point of occasionally reading the magazines available in stores on weapons, tactics, and even issues of Soldier of Fortune type rags.... Nice to know what any fifteen year old might be learning and or buying or stealing.... not just firearms but blades, etc. Every now and then one of my guys would bring in an ad or article that showed new concealed weapons stuff (things disguised as pens, belt buckles, etc). Seems like in a year or so you'd actually begin to see the real thing on the street if you looked for it..

Since I retired the biggest change down here in south Florida has been the number of assault type weapons that kids as young as 14 seem to be getting hold of. That kind of weapon (even a cheap third world copy) makes any questions about ammo pretty much not a consideration. Kids with guns scare the heck out of me....

[ForumSurfer]

Kids that have gone down the wrong path with guns scare the heck out of me....

There, fixed that for you. :)

Surely you meant it that way. My 8 and 12 year old behind the trigger on my AR on my property shouldn't scare anyone. :neener:

[USAF_Vet]

...to one guy who loaded .22's in a .38 revolver. He wrapped duct tape around the cartridge to make it fit.

Would that even work? Despite having next to no accuaracy due to the bullet not contacting the rifling, would the firing pin on a centerfire even fire a rimfire cartridge?

[19-3Ben]

I suppose it MIGHT work if you offset the cartridge in the tape so that the firing pin struck the outer rim of the round rather than hitting dead center. Interesting thought.

[MachIVshooter]

At the very least, someone looking for the super-baddest ammo they can get can always just pick the most expensive box on the shelf.

Ah, good. They'll be buying Extreme Shock, and we can all worry a little less.

A friend who worked for South Metro Drug Task (Denver) told me that range ammo was most commonly found in the guns they recovered.

I'll never assume the BG doesn't know his way around firearms, but evidence suggests the average thug isn't particularly gun savvy

[Remo223]

I think i read(maybe even here on THR) that dangerous criminals(the truly dangerous, not the two bit punks) are actually more capable with firearms than cops are...and when surveyed in prison, they did not really care what kind of handgun they carried so long as it was hi-cap and shot where they pointed. Caliber and bullet type was not important to them.

[Remo223]

Would that even work? Despite having next to no accuaracy due to the bullet not contacting the rifling, would the firing pin on a centerfire even fire a rimfire cartridge?
It would probably fire. But with that much slop between bullet and barrel you are essentially shooting a gun with no barrel. The amount of energy imparted to the bullet from gunpowder (with no barrel to seal the pressure behind the bullet) is VERY small. You are probably looking at the muzzle energy in the neighborhood of a BB gun times two.

[ForumSurfer]

After further thought...I came to the conclusion that I don't care. :)

It would only be for amusement as the statistics would only represent the ones who got caught.

As far as ammo type, range fodder can kill you...just ask all the people shot by M9's and fmj ammo throughout the world. I don't care to be shot with ranger fodder, quality fmj or quality defense ammo.

I'll just keep training and practicing to make sure I'm bettering myself.

[HGUNHNTR]

Take an average of all ammunition sold and that will be as close as you will get. My guess is that whatever is available is what will be used. They probably aren't starting a thread on thr to see which bullet is best for convenience store hold-ups.

[Trebor]

IIRC, the guy with the duct taped .22 round in the .38 tried to fire it and it didn't fire.

This is from memory from a newspaper article from 10 or 15 years ago. He tried to rob a store, failed, and the details were so unusual (the duct taped cartridge) that they were mentioned in the story.

I did have the clipping for a couple years, but lost it some time back.

[Joshua M. Smith]

Friends were killed by man high on drugs. 9mm FMJ.

Friend was killed by badguy with Loricin. .380 FMJ, Winchester White box.

That's all the data I have.

Josh

[RevolvingGarbage]

I was once friends with a kid who ended up in and out of jail for breaking into cars and various other crimes. The last time I talked to him was a few years ago. He was trying to sell a S&W Sigma that he had stolen out of some guys truck. He also had a small Mauser 1914 in .32 auto that he carried around. He only had 2 rounds of foreign FMJ, having used the third to shoot a stop sign to test the gun out.

Needless to say, I don't associate with this guy any more.

[Manco]

I think i read(maybe even here on THR) that dangerous criminals(the truly dangerous, not the two bit punks) are actually more capable with firearms than cops are...

Some cops are more skilled than other cops, as well. It seems to me that in terms of skills there are no great distinctions between the major classes of gun users, namely civilians, cops, and criminals (and soldiers, for that matter). In all of these groups, skills are much more of an individual matter, although some generalizations may apply to more specific subgroups.

and when surveyed in prison, they did not really care what kind of handgun they carried so long as it was hi-cap and shot where they pointed. Caliber and bullet type was not important to them.

This usually depends more on purpose than the type of person per se. Caliber and bullet type aren't as important for purposes such as committing crimes and assassinations. That's because nobody wants to get shot with any gun of any caliber; even empty or replica guns can get the job done in many cases because of the fear that they cause. Assassinations or executions are also relatively caliber-independent because the victim is expected to be essentially helpless, as well as particularly vulnerable to precise shot placement. On the other hand, personal defense (whether by cops or civilians) tends to emphasize caliber and bullet type more because the purpose is to stop a bad guy as quickly as possible under potentially adverse conditions, which may not be easy in some cases; they are also major considerations for soldiers who need to balance lethality against capacity and other logistical concerns.

By the way, we should keep in mind that gun enthusiasts, as a group, tend to be inordinately interested in all kinds of things related to guns, whether these things are truly important or not. ;) We may or may not have greater skill on the average as shooters than other civilians, cops, criminals, or soldiers (whatever the case may be), but we're not typical.

[MrWesson]

My money would go towards

Whatever was in the gun when it was stolen
or
FMJ target ammo

[Remo223]

post 20:

as I remember, the surveyed incarcerated criminals used their guns on other criminals most often. And their stated rationale for not caring what caliber they carried was that the first hit counted the most and any deficiencies in stopping power were rectified with very fast followup shots. In otherwords, they are saying a person's ability to effectively fight back is seriously reduced by being struck by a bullet, any bullet...and that nearly every single time, the winner of a gun fight is the one that could score the first hit.

So to put it another way, a 380 beats a 44mag if you can score the first "hit". Speed matters more than stopping power because stopping power is cumulative(of all shots fired) and if you hit the first shot, most likely the rest are going to hit as well.

I'm not arguing my personal belief here. I'm just trying to clarify what I remember the criminals' perspective was

[msparks]

Friends were killed by man high on drugs. 9mm FMJ.

Friend was killed by badguy with Loricin. .380 FMJ, Winchester White box.

That's all the data I have.

Josh
Interesting to see how this has played out. I would guess range ammo would probably be statistically higher since more of that is sold than high dollar Defense Ammo.

I would think the statistics would be found from police departments that confiscate guns during arrests.

Any cops on here know if they note the type of ammo in the gun? Or do they just care about the make, model and serial number?

I also wondered if they keep stats from shootings and homicides? Bullet caliber and type. That would be interesting to see.

Like others have posted FMJ works, just like any high speed projectile if it hits the right place.

[Carl N. Brown]

In the late 1950s and early 1960s, I knew some "bad guys" in the 'hood' and spent several afternoons in the 1970s at a biker shop talking with a couple of detectives, shooting the breeze about guns, crime, self defense, etc. I have also known patrolmen and corrections officers as friends, acquaintances or relatives.

It is not surprising to see a "bad guy"'s revolver or automatic loaded with ammo from different makers, different styles of bullet, ranging from new to decades old, in the same cylinder or magazine. Most "bad guys" are relatively ignorant about guns and are only good at being vicious. Weapon or ammo of choice of criminals is probably useless information.

[Sam1911]

Speed matters more than stopping power

Some of us like to say that speed is fine but accuracy is final. Others will point out that a fast "Down 3" or "D" hit is likely to be more decisive to the final outcome of a violent encounter than an "A" or "Down 0" shot that takes three seconds to put on target.

...

And some will say that a .45 is a whole lot better than a 9mm. ;)

[ForumSurfer]

This usually depends more on purpose than the type of person per se. Caliber and bullet type aren't as important for purposes such as committing crimes and assassinations. That's because nobody wants to get shot with any gun of any caliber; even empty or replica guns can get the job done in many cases because of the fear that they cause. Assassinations or executions are also relatively caliber-independent because the victim is expected to be essentially helpless, as well as particularly vulnerable to precise shot placement.I think we are all over-thinking this.

A criminal has a criminal act in mind, here's what happens.



Come up with plan
Attempt execution with overwhelming force.
Uh-oh...bump in the road, could be a cop or an armed response from a victim.
Fire as many shots as possible, he just wants to get away and doesn't care about stopping power. He doesn't care about 9 vs 45, he just wants to poke holes in you. He doesn't care if you bleed out more quickly or not. He figures if he presents overwhelming firepower you will die or seek cover, either way it is mission accomplished for the BG.
Leave

1, 2 and 5 are the main goals in the criminal's mind.

[ForumSurfer]

I would think the statistics would be found from police departments that confiscate guns during arrests.

But again, what good are those statistics? Now you have statistics on %XX percent of criminals, the percentage that was dumb enough to get caught with a firearm. That leaves the other %XX percent that are smart enough to not get caught.

So those statistics would be an unknown percentage of an unknown number of criminals. That almost seems like an infinite margin of error.

I think at best, the statistics would be a conversational result and not really useful or accurate.

[KimberUltra]

My best bet would be the same ammo we use, with 9mm and 380 being more common due to being cheap and plentiful. It also depends on the "criminal." If it's a career criminal then the gun is probably stolen and small so he can hide it, so a 380 or 9mm might be most common. If it's an average guy who owns a gun and decided to rob a jewelry store then it could be absolutely anything.

But as guns used by criminals, it's probably anything they can get their hands on that's cheap and easy to hide. Could be your gun or my gun.

[lemaymiami]

I long ago came to the conclusion that because we tend to catch the stupid ones....it's very easy to think that's what you're dealing with. I once helped take down a real weasel of a bad guy who had bragged about killings for hire. In his small apartment there were guns in every room, including one or two .22 autos without barrels, and another .45 without a barrel (which I took as a sign that they'd been used or that he had a supply of barrels available to him). I was just a young street cop then assisting the two detectives who had made the arrest. Since the guy was quiet and peaceful they'd 'cuffed him with his hands in front (he was only going down for a property crime not the supposed killings...) and sat him down on his sofa, while they were impounding all his weapons.... I was pretty interested in the guy since he was the first serious guy I'd ever dealt with (mostly you're handling real losers with no brains at all...). I noticed a stack of floor cushions in front of the sofa he was sitting on, and you guessed it... under the first cushion was a loaded S&W model 19, in 357. All he had to do was reach for it and we'd have been toast...

I tried to remember that afternoon years later whenever dealing with anyone with any weapon at all. Not all the weasels in this world are stupid. Just because a guy might use a piece of junk iron for some purpose doesn't mean he might not know more about weapons than you.... If you're careless it won't matter much if you're shot with a cheap RG22 or a well made weapon, pray it doesn't happen to you or anyone you know.

[NMGonzo]

The ammo they carry can be fairly lethal if striking vital organs, regardless of caliber.

[PabloJ]

Are there any statistics on what the "average" bad guy uses as far as bullets go?

I would imagine that bad guys kill more people than cops do or even legally armed citizens.

We talk about the best bullet/caliber etc. The best load or hollow point etc.

What are the BG's using on average? I'm guessing they don't walk into the gun store and ask for Hornady TAP or Gold Dots or something like that.

If I had to guess they either use what was in the gun already (stolen gun) or they go buy the cheapest stuff they can find?

If you know of any studies post em up. If you have your own opinion lets hear it.
Lately we have been using Federal 'Chamption' FMJs. We also like WBW, Remington green/white boxed stuff and 9mm 'Nato' from Winchester and Federal.

[mr_goodbomb]

Actually, I've heard that in many cases, gang members are likely to use less than lethal rounds, or at least the "most lethal." 50 Cent, for example, has been shot almost a dozen times and lived because they were all practice rounds. Uneducated, low-level gang members just might tend to buy nice firearms and then use whatever ammo is cheapest, IE, target rounds, because they assume a bullet is a bullet.

[hso]

Local police supply bought many of the evidence room firearms and since they bought knives from me I was there to help sort through the lots of firearms. The guys found that most of them had random junk in them. Sometimes not even the correct caliber. Rarely was any uber-tactical ammunition used.

[LeonCarr]

IME (16 years LEO) basic FMJ range type ammo has been the handgun ammo most carried by criminals. I honestly can't recall finding handgun ammo in a bad guy's vehicle or house that did not contain FMJ ammo, or finding a gun that did not contain FMJ ammo.

The thing to worry about is most of the turds I mean criminals are learning correct shot placement from video games.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[msparks]

The thing to worry about is most of the turds I mean criminals are learning correct shot placement from video games.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
That sucks. I guess you play enough video games you would probably be pretty good at lining up the sites and aiming at a target.

[PabloJ]

The fmj bullet gives better penetration, reliability and bounce off hard surface like street pavement.

[mljdeckard]

While I agree that there are SOME criminals who practice as much as or more than the average cop, remember a couple of things. The average cop doesn't practice all that much. And I think there are very few, if any, professionals like "Vincent" in "Collateral" running around out there. Come on. We are always haranguing permit holders because they don't practice enough, do you really think that there are a lot of criminals who have more dedication than that? I'm not saying they don't exist, I just don't think there are very many.

Criminals, by and large, are people who lack dedication, discipline, and strong work ethics. Also, most of them are prior offenders, who cannot be seen shooting a gun in public. If they go to a public range and get recognized by LE, they will be busted. This means most of them will use whatever gun they can get, with the original ammo that came with it.

[PabloJ]

Aren't ranges just for rich white folk?

[mljdeckard]

Perhaps I should enhance, not just organized shooting ranges, but also places on public land where people go to shoot. These places are also perused by law enforcement personnel. (At least they are where I live.) It is quite common that they will stop to chat, and it's not at all difficult to picture them recognizing local bad guys who would be prohibited. Or running their plates to see if they have a sheet.

[Snowbandit]

In my 30 years of law enforcement I can't recall a single time where a recovered gun contained ammunition I would consider worthy of use on the street. Usually, if it's even all the same kind, it's FMJ or wadcutter target stuff. More often than not these guns are loaded with a totally mixed bag. Even guns known to have been taken with good ammo, the good stuff is usually gone and replaced by junk. Whatever they can beg, borrow, steal or buy cheap.

[ForumSurfer]

Here's one for you! I thought I'd share some breaking news related to what bad guys carry.

http://local.nixle.com/alert/4689100/

The short version is the guy asked for a ride and then brandished a hacked off 22 rifle. He was arrested a short while later by an elementary school carrying the same 22, a machete, a prison style shank and wearing a military grade ballistic vest :eek:

[Sam1911]

Lately we have been using Federal 'Chamption' FMJs. We also like WBW, Remington green/white boxed stuff and 9mm 'Nato' from Winchester and Federal.

Who's "WE?"

[Dr.Rob]

Purely anectdotal:

I've seen just about every episode of "First 48" and 99% of what they recover from semi automatics is plain old FMJ. Think I saw a box Remington HP recovered once, but in a home later not at the crime scene.

Though I did see an episode where Wolf buckshot was used, the empties clearly marked as such littering a parking lot.

Revolvers do pop up occasionally.

[ForumSurfer]

The fmj bullet gives better penetration, reliability and bounce off hard surface like street pavement.

Lately we have been using Federal 'Chamption' FMJs. We also like WBW, Remington green/white boxed stuff and 9mm 'Nato' from Winchester and Federal.

Who's "WE?"

Those two comments had me wondering, also. I would love to know who "we" is. :confused:

[nelsonal]

Here's a paper on Chicago's gun markets, obviously it's not comprehensive since the whole market is a black market, but I was quite surprised at how unsophisticated the market was.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w11737

And a summary if you don't have an email that will let you read it.

http://www.econ.brown.edu/econ/sthesis/AnnePapers/Anne7.html

I'd be curious to see how the underground gun market worked in areas that had less gun control.

[JohnBiltz]

I was in walmart once buying ammo. The guy in front of me was wearing all kinds of Cincinnati Reds gear (wasn't baseball season) and some blood tattoos to boot. He was buying 380 and .25 of the cheapest variety. Does that mean they all do the same? Probably not. The thing is that was in a Wal-Mart, if I'm in a Wal-Mart I'm buying the cheapest thing I can, that is why I'm there. Doesn't mean my carry gun on me is loaded with it.

My guess is most criminals don't know what is in their guns and don't care.

[Lucky Derby]

About 20 years ago or so I recall watching a "news" program (for lack of a better term), 60 minutes, 20/20 or some such. They were doing an expose on teenage street gangs. they interviewed one Chicago ganbanger who was about 14. The reporter asked him if he had a gun. He said "yes". She asked "What kind?" He said "A Four-Five." She asked if it was a good gun. He said no-he wanted to trade it for a Tec-9. She asked if she could see his gun. I kid you not, this kid pulls a long barreled Ruger Blackhawk out of his pants. :what:

This is the criminal mentality. Who wants to be that that kid is now either dead or in prison?

[mr_goodbomb]

I kid you not, this kid pulls a long barreled Ruger Blackhawk out of his pants. :what:

This is the criminal mentality. Who wants to be that that kid is now either dead or in prison?

Maybe I'm dense, it's early, but I think I missed the joke, unless it's that he's carrying a single action because it looks impressive.

[rscalzo]

UCR does not track ammo.

In the case of assault w style firearms, they track the type. Other than that it's simply firearm or not. Individual reports might get into the specifies on ammo but they are not tracked.

[Wahoo95]

Most carry the cheapest they can get their hands on so that will be FMJ. Most aren't gonna go spend the extra cash to buy a box of 20 JHP when they can get 50rd box of FMJ for much less.

My cousin was killed with an AR-15 loaded with Wolf.

I had a friend killed recently by a guy with a HiPoint 9mm loaded with FMJ

Had another friend aquaintance killed back when I was in college by a guy with a Lorcin 380 loaded with FMJ

Saw a guy killed in a streetfight when I was a kid....6 shots of .22lr to the chest

I work security at my church(its a large church) and we've had a few attempted robberies. Each time the guys were busted and they had guns ranging from HiPoints to Glocks. All were loaded with FMJ.

While I'm sure the more savvy criminal will carry a niceer pistol with better ammo, the average street criminal will carry whatever is cheapest since they know they may have to ditch it at some point. They also know that FMJ kills just as well as JHP ;)

[Manco]

I think we are all over-thinking this.

Well, that wouldn't be the first time for me. ;) However, I didn't mean to imply that all of that reasoning I put forth was a conscious consideration on the part of criminals--rather it was an explanation of what they simply know intuitively (or from experience) without thinking, that guns are scary when they're pointed at you and can kill regardless of caliber or bullet type. We have to keep telling ourselves these things because we're so gosh-darn obsessed with everything gun-related and know too much trivia for our own good, but it's common sense for most other people.

In his small apartment there were guns in every room, including one or two .22 autos without barrels, and another .45 without a barrel (which I took as a sign that they'd been used or that he had a supply of barrels available to him).

I bet he sandpapers his fingerprints off, too. ;) Or wears gloves....

Not all the weasels in this world are stupid.

That's right, the really smart ones get elected. :uhoh:

Just because a guy might use a piece of junk iron for some purpose doesn't mean he might not know more about weapons than you....

True, and I've heard that criminals sometimes deliberately use the junkiest guns they can find because they may decide to dispose of it anyway (whether that's the best idea even for a criminal is debatable, but that's what I've heard).

Purely anectdotal:

I've seen just about every episode of "First 48" and 99% of what they recover from semi automatics is plain old FMJ. Think I saw a box Remington HP recovered once, but in a home later not at the crime scene.

Though I did see an episode where Wolf buckshot was used, the emptied clearly marked as such littering a parking lot.

Anecdotally, it seems that birdshot is the most common type of ammo in shotguns used by criminals, and I've heard stories about some store clerks selling only birdshot to shady-looking individuals who don't know better or care to (speaking of which, there was a Walmart clerk who refused to sell ammo to the Tucson killer, so it's not hard to believe).

[Odd Job]

Would be a really nice research project to find out what ammo the criminals go for (and calibre also) as a trend. If anyone has done this by now it will be the AFTE (Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners). They have a public forum section:

http://www.afte.org/forum/smf1/index.php

I've seen a load of GSWs, but these have been in the hospital environment. And guess what, each one of those people who was shot, claimed to have been shot by a bad guy. It is very difficult to work out what happened in some cases unless there is other evidence. Sometimes the patient will discredit himself because the medical evidence renders his version of events an impossibility. But even so, at that point you don't know whether it was a good guy or another bad guy who shot him. There is a lot of that around: bad guys shooting bad guys.

Sometimes you will get some witness statements or police info that indicates that a patient has definitely been shot by a bad guy. And in a further subset of those cases, there are projectiles or fragments thereof that can indicate the type of ammo used, and even the approximate diameter of the round.
I can't provide a mean but I can indicate a range of ammunition being used by looking back on some interesting cases I saw. Here are just some of the cases seen directly by me at one civilian hospital in a relatively short time:

1) A handgun JHP that produced stellate tears in a liver capsule and massive cavitating injuries to the liver itself. That was a hijack victim, he died in theatre from multiple GSWs..

2) A .25 ACP FMJ that entered anteriorly in the abdomen, clipped a major vessel in the pelvis and resulted in death by exsanguination.

3) A 7.62 x 25mm Selier and Bellot steel-cored bullet that caused major damage to a person's lower leg and ankle. This was a multiple shooting at a train station. it is not clear whether the gun was a pistol or a carbine, as multiple weaposn were discharged on the scene and there were security staff firing back also.

4) Close-range shotgun wound to the left flank, patient died in theatre. Paramedics on the scene said the wepaon was home-made. This was with birdshot.

5) Many, many cases of FMJs and many cases of JHPs also.

6) An all-lead semi-wadcutter that deflected from a person's shoulder into his head, causing minimal damage alongside the frontal sinus. Attempted hijacking of a truck.

7) A small jacketed bullet (probably a .25ACP) that perforated a person's thumb, shattering the bone and also perforated a thigh diagonally, before being trapped in clothing at the exit site.

8) Many ricochet cases, jacketed and non jacketed ammo. JHP and ball.

When you go into these shootings in detail, you are always taken by surprise at one point or another, how a person survived/was killed in a particular incident.

[PabloJ]

Well, that wouldn't be the first time for me. ;) However, I didn't mean to imply that all of that reasoning I put forth was a conscious consideration on the part of criminals--rather it was an explanation of what they simply know intuitively (or from experience) without thinking, that guns are scary when they're pointed at you and can kill regardless of caliber or bullet type. We have to keep telling ourselves these things because we're so gosh-darn obsessed with everything gun-related and know too much trivia for our own good, but it's common sense for most other people.



I bet he sandpapers his fingerprints off, too. ;) Or wears gloves....



That's right, the really smart ones get elected. :uhoh:



True, and I've heard that criminals sometimes deliberately use the junkiest guns they can find because they may decide to dispose of it anyway (whether that's the best idea even for a criminal is debatable, but that's what I've heard).



Anecdotally, it seems that birdshot is the most common type of ammo in shotguns used by criminals, and I've heard stories about some store clerks selling only birdshot to shady-looking individuals who don't know better or care to (speaking of which, there was a Walmart clerk who refused to sell ammo to the Tucson killer, so it's not hard to believe).
At close range lowly "birdshot" is exceedingly good at taking limbs off.

[walking arsenal]

Odd job.

In English? Some of us don't speak doctor.

[1911Tuner]

Bored and couldn't sleep and found this whilst killin' a little time, this day...I ran across this:

Quote/Response:

Originally Posted by USAF_Vet View Post
Would that even work? Despite having next to no accuaracy due to the bullet not contacting the rifling, would the firing pin on a centerfire even fire a rimfire cartridge?
It would probably fire. But with that much slop between bullet and barrel you are essentially shooting a gun with no barrel. The amount of energy imparted to the bullet from gunpowder (with no barrel to seal the pressure behind the bullet) is VERY small. You are probably looking at the muzzle energy in the neighborhood of a BB gun times two.
************

Wrong.

While I can't say how well a taped .22 rimfire case would work in a .38 chamber because I've never tried it...I can testify to the fact that you'd be surprised at how much velocity and energy can be had by firing a cartridge in a chamber without a barrel, because I have done that...twice by design, and once quite embarassingly by accident.
Also, it would surprise many people how little short-range accuracy is degraded without the barrel being involved.

In August of 2007, Bill Caldwell and I chronographed a few .38 Special rounds through an old RG 2-inch revolver. The barrels on those cheap guns are quick and easy to remove, being no more than a shroud pressed onto a sleeve that's fixed to the frame by a crosspin.

With the same lot of standard pressure ammunition...at 15 feet distance...the chronograph showed a difference of less than 60 fps.

During a demonstration to prove that the barrel wasn't even necessary for slide function...I chucked an old 1911 barrel up in a lathe and bored it to a half-inch diameter...giving the bullet .025 inch clearance per side. Not only did the slide function, but the 230 grain bullets penetrated deeply into dry, packed Piedmont NC clay and a hardwood tree.

In the third, I inadvertently stuffed 6 .41 Magnum handloads into a Cimarron's .44 caliber chambers and proceeded to knock down 5 out of 6 plates on the machine from 25 yards distance. There was no discernible difference either in report nor in recoil...nor with the authority that the plates got smacked down...between the wrong and the right ammunition.

Sometimes things aren't always the way we think they are.

[yhtomit]

In the third, I inadvertently stuffed 6 .41 Magnum handloads into a Cimarron's .44 caliber chambers and proceeded to knock down 5 out of 6 plates on the machine from 25 yards distance. There was no discernible difference either in report nor in recoil...nor with the authority that the plates got smacked down...between the wrong and the right ammunition.

That's quite a story! Is there anything about that accidental pairing that could have done damage to the gun?

This thread is reminding me that people seem to get at least passable accuracy from sub-caliber devices. (Never having fired one -- I'm only extrapolating from the fact they exist and are spoken of in neutral or positive terms by some intelligent gun writers.)

timothy

[pikid89]

theres a clip circulating on youtube of History Channels Gangland show

it show a couple of gangbangers in detroit all wearing bandanas on thier faces showing the camera what kind of guns they had...one guy pulled out some sort of automatic and took out the mag to show the camera his "purple cop killa bullets"....aka A-Zoom snap caps...some gun store owner saw him comin from a mile away lol

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>Is there anything about that accidental pairing that could have done damage to the gun?<

Possibly could have if the .41 ammunition had been loaded to full romp'n'stomp. My go-to range ammo consists of a 210 grain cast bullet and 8.5 grains Unique, which is healthy, but mild compared to what it would have been with 18 grains of 2400. Oddly, the report and recoil was pretty much identical to the 240-grain cast bullet and 7.5 grains of Unique that I had for the .44 Special. It didn't provide me with a clue...until I ejected the bulged but intact cases.

Also...due to no bullet contact in the4 barrel, there was no forward drag, and hence no frame stretch...so all the punishment was imposed on the recoil shield.

[Hondo 60]

I was just reading a blog on the internet from a person who said they're a former LEO & is currently working in a medical examiner's office.

He/she said far and away most gunshot vics are killed with multiple 9mm or 380 hits.
They went on to say how 45 cal hits are usually single.

[Remo223]

Bored and couldn't sleep and found this whilst killin' a little time, this day...I ran across this:

Quote/Response:

Originally Posted by USAF_Vet View Post
Would that even work? Despite having next to no accuaracy due to the bullet not contacting the rifling, would the firing pin on a centerfire even fire a rimfire cartridge?
It would probably fire. But with that much slop between bullet and barrel you are essentially shooting a gun with no barrel. The amount of energy imparted to the bullet from gunpowder (with no barrel to seal the pressure behind the bullet) is VERY small. You are probably looking at the muzzle energy in the neighborhood of a BB gun times two.
************

Wrong.

While I can't say how well a taped .22 rimfire case would work in a .38 chamber because I've never tried it...I can testify to the fact that you'd be surprised at how much velocity and energy can be had by firing a cartridge in a chamber without a barrel, because I have done that...twice by design, and once quite embarassingly by accident.
Also, it would surprise many people how little short-range accuracy is degraded without the barrel being involved.

In August of 2007, Bill Caldwell and I chronographed a few .38 Special rounds through an old RG 2-inch revolver. The barrels on those cheap guns are quick and easy to remove, being no more than a shroud pressed onto a sleeve that's fixed to the frame by a crosspin.

With the same lot of standard pressure ammunition...at 15 feet distance...the chronograph showed a difference of less than 60 fps.

During a demonstration to prove that the barrel wasn't even necessary for slide function...I chucked an old 1911 barrel up in a lathe and bored it to a half-inch diameter...giving the bullet .025 inch clearance per side. Not only did the slide function, but the 230 grain bullets penetrated deeply into dry, packed Piedmont NC clay and a hardwood tree.

In the third, I inadvertently stuffed 6 .41 Magnum handloads into a Cimarron's .44 caliber chambers and proceeded to knock down 5 out of 6 plates on the machine from 25 yards distance. There was no discernible difference either in report nor in recoil...nor with the authority that the plates got smacked down...between the wrong and the right ammunition.

Sometimes things aren't always the way we think they are.
WRONG

your tests are not relevant.

firing a 38special in a cylinder with no barrel is in no way *NOT EVEN CLOSE* to the same thing as firing a 22rimfire round with no barrel OR CHAMBER.

Even if you did rig up a 38special brass holder and smacked the primer with a hammer and center punch, you still are not in the same realm as a 22rimfire. The reason is the projectile is seated much farther into the 38special than into the 22rimfire and thus the cartridge becomes a barrel unto itself. A 22rimfire is a RIFLE ROUND and as such contains slower burning powder and requires a longer barrel to develop energy. Also, a 22rimfire rifle round has a bullet seating depth of approx 1/8th inch.

I think I don't need to go any further with this explanation. You should be bright enough to figure the rest out yourself.

[SIGLBER]

I don't have any official stats but according to several LEO friends that investigate such shootings allot of cheap ball ammo especially in 9mm. In fact a buddy of mine who was in Detroit's SRT unit before he retired wears some cheap 9mm bullet on a chain as a good luck charm. When he was a young officer a bad guy surprised him amd tried to put a 9mm round through his head at bad breath distance.
It went click instead of bang. The bad guy did not fair to well. But my buddy said even if it isn't lucky it reminded him for the rest of his career to never let his guard down. Must of worked. he made it to retirement.

[SIGLBER]

p.s. just for perspective lots of the bad guys according to friends were DRT from a cheap ball round or two.

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>just for perspective lots of the bad guys according to friends were DRT from a cheap ball round or two.<

Yessir. Ball is lethal. We can argue the drawbacks of hollowpoint vs ball and talk about .45 vs .40 vs 9mm vs .380 all day long...and it ain't like there's a shortage of dead bodies and maimed/disfigured/crippled live ones to offer up for evidence.

[mgmorden]

He/she said far and away most gunshot vics are killed with multiple 9mm or 380 hits.
They went on to say how 45 cal hits are usually single.

That sounds like hear-say from someone who just has an infatuation with the bigger rounds. Statistically, most people who fire their gun defensively tend to empty it - a situation far more likely with smaller capacity guns like the .45 (even I must admit that it'd take a hell of a lot of adrenaline to get you to dump a 17-round mag of 9mm without realizing it).

If the victims are showing single hits with .45 vs multiple with 9mm/.380 I'd say that reflects more on the shootability of those rounds vs the .45 than the lethality. Personally though, I kinda doubt your source myself. Bottom line is that the lethality between the due is absolutely minimal. There are very few hits that would be lethal from a .45 that the perp would survive if hit with a 9mm.

That's not a "pro-9mm" stance, it's mostly one of indifference. If you like .45 and are more comfortable with it, then by all means carry it. It will definitely get the job done. Just don't think you're "in the know" by making that decision. 9mm is plenty effective and the people carrying it aren't underguned nor ignorant.

[Sam1911]

A 22rimfire is a RIFLE ROUND and as such contains slower burning powder and requires a longer barrel to develop energy. Also, a 22rimfire rifle round has a bullet seating depth of approx 1/8th inch.I've never heard anyone claim that .22 LRs are loaded with anything approaching a slow-burning rifle powder. Based on what a few years of reloading, and based on the cartridge size, shape, and volume, that doesn't even begin to make sense. Can you cite a source to back up that claim?

[Cop Bob]

I don't have any official stats but according to several LEO friends that investigate such shootings allot of cheap ball ammo especially in 9mm. In fact a buddy of mine who was in Detroit's SRT unit before he retired wears some cheap 9mm bullet on a chain as a good luck charm. When he was a young officer a bad guy surprised him amd tried to put a 9mm round through his head at bad breath distance.
It went click instead of bang. The bad guy did not fair to well. But my buddy said even if it isn't lucky it reminded him for the rest of his career to never let his guard down. Must of worked. he made it to retirement.
Good for him...

And true, the most common ammo we find in crooks guns is the cheapest stuff you can get... every now and then you will find quality ammo, and then often in stolen guns.. The most common is ball in 9's and 45's, 158gr rn lead in 38's and lead rn 40 grs in 22's... the 12ga stuff usually in some form of bird shot a goose or turkey load.. not too often do you find buckshot or slugs...

[1911Tuner]

Sam, I do believe that I remember hearing from a reliable source that .22 rimfire is loaded with a non-canister grade of Bullseye. I know that it looks like Bullseye, and when lighted with a match, it seems to burn about as quick as Bullseye.

Slow rifle powder? Nah.

[PabloJ]

Federal "Champion" FMJs.

[kingcheese]

its quite simple what a bad guy would use, the gun is probably ilegal, the ammunition is what ever they can get, if the are paying 50 bucks for a glock, then they aint gonna spend 50 bucks on a box of good ammo, the way a thug might look at it is if it can kill/injure/mame/ its got a place

[1911Tuner]

kingcheese probably nailed it squarely.

Brother in-law is a retired Lt. with the WSPD. He 's told me of taking guns with the wrong ammunition...9mms with .380 in the magazines...and magazines with the correct ammunition loaded backward, etc We're not exactly dealin' with genius levels in most cases.

[stonecutter2]

Here's one for you! I thought I'd share some breaking news related to what bad guys carry.

http://local.nixle.com/alert/4689100/

The short version is the guy asked for a ride and then brandished a hacked off 22 rifle. He was arrested a short while later by an elementary school carrying the same 22, a machete, a prison style shank and wearing a military grade ballistic vest :eek:
That story's weird - what was the weapon of mass destruction he was charged with possessing?

[Sam1911]

North Carolina has a very strange law (HERE (http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/pdf/bysection/chapter_14/gs_14-288.8.pdf)) which defines certain firearms as "WMDs."

Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

[Carl N. Brown]

The problem here is that academic criminologists like to develop "crime gun profiles" and advocate banning those makes and models (eg, the 1968 GCA focussed on "Saturday Night Specials"), simply meaning that those weapons were what were currently in the stolen-fenced-smuggled pipeline and crime guns change according to availability.

All that has meant is semiofficial "quality control" for crime guns, since criminals tend to use what is cheap/common. It does not really impact criminal behavior, but does tend to profile owners of guns/ammo that has been profiled as "used by criminals" or "weapon of choice of criminals".

Most street criminals I knew in the late 1950s early 1960s wanted the same guns carried by cops or soldiers, but settled for whatever was available by hook or crook, including .22 blank guns with the barrel vents welded up and the "solid" barrels drilled out (7/32nds bit?)

Usually "crime gun" meant 30 year old H&R or S&W snubbies, and the "choice" had nothing to do with causation of crime or meaningful prevention.

[aryfrosty]

I did 25 years on the streets and have no idea how many gun arrests I made or witnessed... But every arrest I made I followed with an interview attempt. Sometimes the suspect would refuse to answer but many times they cooperated. I never arrested an person carrying a concealed or stolen weapon who could tell me anything about the ammo they had in the gun. Most knew if it was a .9mm or .45....357 or .38, but that was the depth of their insight. Some of the "brighter" ones didn't even know the caliber. To these people a gun was a means to an end and it only had two status indicators: Loaded or unloaded! Many of the same attributes have carried over into the later generations of wannabe gangsters although some of them actually go to the trouble of learning a little about their guns. I watched an SVU episode wherein the detectives referred to the pld WW Black Talons as "Cop Killers". Our agency issued .40cal Black Talons and we didn't know them as such. The liberal gun grabbers who write for SVU aren't smart enough to know that when WW dropped the appellation, "Black Talons", they continued to make the ammo and called it "Ranger SXT-6" and changed the bullet color to brass. Same stuff different package.
I did hear Cops call a round "Cop Killers". The old KTW teflon coated rounds also called "Green Weinies". They were reported to readily defeat soft armor so they had to go...And sure enough, S&w and later another brand brought them back as "Nyclads" Only difference is that the KTWs were a ball projectile wearing teflon and the Nyclads were hollow points clad in a nylon coating.
One of thje greates boons to law enforcement is that most criminals are not detail oriented. They see their warped version of the "Big Picture" and never mind the details. Regards, A;

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>The old KTW teflon coated rounds also called "Green Weinies". They were reported to readily defeat soft armor so they had to go...And sure enough, S&w and later another brand brought them back as "Nyclads" Only difference is that the KTWs were a ball projectile wearing teflon and the Nyclads were hollow points clad in a nylon coating.<

Not hardly. KTW first had tungsten, and later hardened steel cores. The teflon coating was there to give the barrel rifling something to bite into. Nyclad used soft, swaged lead cores completely encased in the coating. The purpose was to eliminate airborne lead for indoor firing ranges.

[lemaymiami]

1911, right on the money about both rounds. The Nyclads were a direct response to serious lead contamination problems that indoor ranges were dealing with some years ago, and that's how they were advertised when they were on the market (my knowledge of them was developed in the seventies, I have no idea if they're still on the market since I never used them myself).

[GLOOB]

Criminals have initiative. It doesn't matter what bullets they're shooting. They have a much bigger advantage than HP vs FMJ.

[1911Tuner]

Federal bought rights to the Nyclad moniker, and I consider the .357 158 SWCHP one of the best factory rounds for the caliber to come down the pike for defensive uses. Velocity ran to about 1100 fps from most 4-inch guns, and the bullets expanded nicely in ballistic gel to nearly double caliber...without breaking up. Recoil and blast were relatively mild when compared to similar 158-grain JHP offerings. I liked it a lot, and wish I'd bought a few cases of the stuff before it disappeared.

[PabloJ]

Criminals have initiative. It doesn't matter what bullets they're shooting. They have a much bigger advantage than HP vs FMJ.
When someone has loaded gun pointed directly at me I would say he/she has pretty insurmountable advantage.:uhoh: