In need of a good 9MM 147 gr load


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xd9
May 10, 2011, 05:13 PM
I was wondering if anyone had a good 147 gr 9MM fmj load they would like to share. I am using blue dot with small pistol magnum primers. Thanks for any advise given

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Owen
May 10, 2011, 05:39 PM
I use 3.4 grains of TiteGroup under a Precision Delta 147 FMJ, with WSP primers. This load reliably makes USPSA minor power factor in a G17, on a cold day.

918v
May 10, 2011, 06:14 PM
What powders other than BD do you have?

gamestalker
May 10, 2011, 06:37 PM
Personally I would drop the magnum primer out of the load. Blue Dot is a good performer with this bullet.
4.2 grs. to 5.7 grs. is going to deliver an estimated 750 fps to 1000 fps.
Alliant is showing only a maximum charge with Blue Dot of 6.2 grs. with estimated velocity at 1050 fps.
I'm getting an actual velocity of 1050 fps with HS6 and a powder charge of 6.2 grs. I worked up to that rather than just loading it, as it is not a listed charge and goes a bit over the maximum listed data. I avoid fast burning powder's like the plague, they just don't offer the ability to work without sudden pressure spikes always a concern.

murf
May 10, 2011, 07:44 PM
ditto on dropping the magnum primers with bludot. if you want to keep using your mag primers, try hs6. that is as slow as i would go here.

murf

xd9
May 10, 2011, 09:30 PM
Hey guys thanks for the advise. I would drop the magnum primers but I bought 2k of them when there was a shortage about year ago so I think I'm going to give the hs6 a try and see where I get with that

Steve C
May 11, 2011, 12:41 AM
Alliant is showing only a maximum charge with Blue Dot of 6.2 grs. with estimated velocity at 1050 fps.

That's because they expect you to read and do math if you're old enough to reload. On pg 8 of their free on line PDF data file they have this note:

The powder charge weights listed in our data tables are maximum. For rifle and pistol loads, the maximum powder charge should be reduced by 10% to establish a minimum or starting powder charge.

Got_Lead?
May 11, 2011, 03:33 AM
XD:

I spent a considerable amount of time and effort including bulging my Hi-Power barrel looking for good heavy bullet loads in my 9mm's. I think it was the WW 231 that bulged it. Gamestalker and the others are right on about using slower powders with the heavy boolits, I think I had pretty good results with WW571 and AA#5, Unique did OK in lower charges.

If you're using an XD, they have a pretty thick chamber and locking block, and will tolerate pressure better than some guns. However, be very careful with heavy boolits in a 9mm, especially seating depth, the 9mm case just doesn't have the volume to be forgiving. The loads that bulged the barrel in my HP gave powder puff report and recoil, you wouldn't have known they were hammering the snot out of the pistol, except for the flattened primers. Watch those babies, if they flatten, stop and just pull your boolits.

Good luck

918v
May 11, 2011, 12:45 PM
What was the load that bulged your barrel?

rugerglocker
May 11, 2011, 01:42 PM
Didn't know a moderately hot load could bulge a barrel on its own? Thought that it is usually caused by firing into a lodged squib or one of those "detonation" anomalies.

I like Power Pistol for 147s and even have messed around with Bullseye, 231/hp-38, and Solo 1000 for quiet 147 loads.

ColtPythonElite
May 11, 2011, 01:47 PM
Power Pistol is my favorite powder for jacketed/plated handgun bullets. It meters well and burns clean.

J_McLeod
May 11, 2011, 04:38 PM
So far I've loaded and fired about 30 rounds of 147gr lead with 3.2gr Win231 and 1.145 OAL. It shot well, clean case, normal primer and the brass landed at my feet.

rugerglocker
May 11, 2011, 09:52 PM
So far I've loaded and fired about 30 rounds of 147gr lead with 3.2gr Win231 and 1.145 OAL. It shot well, clean case, normal primer and the brass landed at my feet.

I think I'm just over that by .4gr with plated. About that OAL too, maybe 1.150, but that is a tiny difference.

J_McLeod
May 11, 2011, 10:31 PM
Since the brass on the last batch was landing at my feet, I went down to 1.135, but haven't shot those yet. I really liked it, and bought a box of 500 MBC 147gr to make more.

adobewalls
May 11, 2011, 10:43 PM
I tried Hdy 147 gr. with Fed SP primer and 5.6 gr. Blue Dot to OAL 1.100. Shot out of a Steyr M9-A1. No pressure signs and seemed accurate enough (was just plinking).

I will try it in a couple of other pistols before deciding to stay with the load.

REL1203
May 11, 2011, 11:00 PM
I think I'm just over that by .4gr with plated. About that OAL too, maybe 1.150, but that is a tiny difference.
So are you at 3.4g w231 or 3.6g w231 with plated? I am looking for a load for some 147g Berry plated i just picked up and have a 1lb can of w231 I havent used for anything yet.

TH3180
May 11, 2011, 11:01 PM
My comp load goes like this
147g Montana Gold CMJ R/N
4.7 g Power Pistol
1.150"

I'm shooting it out of a Gen3 G17 RTF2. I have found the recoil to be more of a push then a slap. I have no problem at all knocking over poppers with one shot. I played with AA#7 a little bit. I plan to work with it a little bit more when I have the time but I can't seem to find the time because I like the PP so much.
I worked with BD a little but couldn't get it to meter worth a darn so I gave up on it for now.

italy176
May 12, 2011, 01:06 AM
I've run 6.9-7.0 gr VV3N38 behind 147gr XTPs in a glock 17 and a carbine w/good luck. I did let the C.O.A.L. run a little long because I was afraid of excess pressure (1.158ish). The ave vel out of the g17 = 1130fps and the average out of the carbine was around 1340fps. Your mileage may vary. Load closer to the VV C.O.A.L. specs and you may see the magic 1200fps.

Incidently, I have used 6.3grs of BD and up to [*USE AT YOUR OWN RISK*] 6.9grs BD behind 147gr XTPs - again loaded long (1.158). I only chrono'ed through the carbine and got about 1340fps. I'd like try some 147gr FMJ RN loads because the carbine accepts "longer" FMJ RN rounds and seems to have faster performance w/FMJ RN. But that is stuff for another post.

rugerglocker
May 12, 2011, 03:13 AM
edit

Got_Lead?
May 12, 2011, 03:17 AM
918:

Here are the notes I took from that shooting session:

4/17/10
9mm Workup
25 rds. 158 RNFP WW231 2.6, 2.8, 3.0, 3.2, 3.4
5 rds. Ultramax 125 Hard LRN to barrel
15 Rds. 158 RNFP 2.5 WW231

2.5 gn WW231, bullets 8" low at 50 Yds, mild recoil, like a .38, ejection 1-2' 18# spring, functioning +20 to 30%
Primers flattened 75% at 2.6 gn, 95% at 3.4 gn with some cratering. 3.0 gn seems about max. Ejection at 3.4 gn 8'-10'. WW231 burns clean with little residue.

4/18/10
25 Rds. 158 RNFP Hodgdon Universal 2.4, 2.6, 2.8. 3.0, 3.2 gns.
Recoil on 2.4 very low, primers 70-80% flat, 3.2 95% flat. 2.4 gave 2" group.


It could have been either the 231 or the Universal that bulged the barrel, I did notice that Universal has a real sudden pressure spike as the loads increase. The bulge in the barrel is at the first locking lug recess, where the steel is the most thin. It's a small bulge, I only noticed it while I was cleaning the barrel, several sessions later. The reflection looked just a little strange ahead of the chamber, I questioned what it was, after the Oh-oh, it's not, mmmmm, yup, it's a bulge. You almost can't see it from the outside, you would have to know it's there. Anyhoo, lesson learned, the bullet I was working with is a Lee 158 gn RNFP. I tested a number of slower powders as well, they are probably a better choice, however, I concluded that this bullet is just too heavy, and there's not enough case volume to accomodate it. I can get you the COL's if you want them, I beleive I seated the bullet just short of the ogive engaging the rifling. I'm gonna stick with the 125 gns in the 9mm, believe it or not, the Hi-Power will still shoot a 1 1/2" group at 25 yards with that little dimple, but I'm gonna replace it anyway, probably a Bar-Sto.

rugerglocker
May 12, 2011, 03:35 AM
158 is a bit long for 9mm, only factory 158 gr 9mm I know if is Fiocci, IMI (and you can't find the 158 IMI any more), and PRVI (which is normally OK ammo, but I have heard to stay away from their 158 9mm like the plauge). So that basically leaves you w/ the Fiocci. Hard to duplicate. Not to mention you can't find any commercial bullets in 158 gr for 9mm (.355), they are all (.357-358). I wouldn't push .357 jacketed down my 9mm, and for that matter I wouldn't do it w/ lead either, even though you can usually oversize w/ lead.

918v
May 14, 2011, 01:47 PM
Got Lead:

The barrel bulge is likely due to the Hi Power's two-piece barrel. A different gun would prolly have stood-up better. I hate this kind of setup.

But I agree that a pressure spike was the likely culprit. That's what happens when you play with heavy bullets and fast powders. You have to be careful. I believe Stephen Camp passed along a similar warning from his gunsmith regarding the Hi Power on his website, except he warned against 147gr ammo period.

I used to like Universal under 147's and found Hodgdon's 3.3gr max to be accurate under an XTP @ 1.100" OAL. I read about people going to 3.5grs, but they are using longer OAL's. I still like 3.6grs of 231 under a 147XTP.

Sapper771
May 15, 2011, 04:59 AM
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

I just started using 147gr bullets. So far the results are very promising.

So far, I have had best results using W231, WST, and Bullseye. I havent completed my load development yet, so these loads are still going through testing. Bullet used is the Missouri Bullet Co. 147gr LFP. OAL for all is 1.130". Pistol used is a Glock 17 with Lone Wolf barrel.

3.6gr - 4.0gr W231

3.6gr - 3.8gr WST

3.5gr Bullseye

All three of these have shown to be very accurate from 10 yards. The bullseye load is the only load that has printed POA, but the Bullseye load is snappy. The majority of my efforts have been going toward the W231 and WST loads, but they are printing about and inch high. I am still working on that. I have loaded a few W231 at 4.0gr, waiting to test those. Also looking at going to 4.0gr with the WST.

The loads I am developing are going to be used as a training load, so they dont have to be x-ring accurate. Like stated above : USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

UPDATE: 4.0gr of W231 shot well, but was starting to get snappy. Primers were showing some pressure signs, but I am using soft federal primers. 4.0gr of WST showed to be accurate, comfortable to shoot, and printed POA. I think WST is the clear winner at this point. After firing 100 rounds of W231 and 100 rounds of WST, my G17 was surprisingly clean. Leading was limited to the last inch of the barrel.

REL1203
May 15, 2011, 11:57 PM
hey Sapper, what bullets were you using, you just said 147, curious if they were lead, Plated, or FMJ...

Thanks

J_McLeod
May 16, 2011, 12:01 AM
hey Sapper, what bullets were you using, you just said 147, curious if they were lead, Plated, or FMJ...

Thanks
He mentioned Missouri Bullet Company, so those are lead.

Clark
May 16, 2011, 01:31 AM
If a guy was looking for a power 147 gr 9mm load in published data, he would see Vihtavouri 1 1994 5.8 gr 3N37 1140 fps.

He would think that is better than the 5 gr Power pistol in Speer 13 load book that gets 975 fps or the 5 gr Power Pistol 975 fps on the Alliant web site.

But if he took did a work up with these powders and this bullet, he would get very different results.

Sapper771
May 16, 2011, 04:27 AM
Yeah, I am using the Missouri Bullet Co. 147gr Lead Flat Point (aka Subsonic). Sadly, I am out of them now. That figures though, find a good load, then run out of bullets. At least I am not alone, Powder Valley is out too.

I was actually excited to find leading near the muzzle and not the entire bore. Looks like the lube isnt sufficient. Going to try a coat of alox to see if that helps any.

REL1203
May 16, 2011, 07:59 AM
He mentioned Missouri Bullet Company, so those are lead.

Damn, you are totally right... Brain wasnt working well last night... thanks for pointing that out

Galil5.56
May 16, 2011, 12:10 PM
Power Pistol would be a nice place to start. Working up .355" 147 grain JHP/FMJ's/whatever to nearly 1000 fps is doable, even using current Alliant data specifying 147's GD's, and definitely doable using circa mid 90's data that spec'd Hornady 147 XTP bullets. I'll PM you a screen shot from my mid 90's manual if interested.

To give some idea how Power Pistol charge weight in 9x19 relates to a similar bullet weight and resultng velocity, here are results from my 5" Beretta M9 using 140 grain Mastercast.net lead TC bullets sized .3575":

5 grains Power Pistol 140 grain Mastercast TC sized .3575 CCI 500 OAL 1.090
1066 1072 1067 1048 1061 AV 1062 SD 24 SD 9

This combo is very, very accurate, perfect functioning, with a nice recoil impulse. No pressure concerns to note, not even marked expansion of the case into the unsupported part of the chamber. I may increase the charge a bit to see how the accuracy holds up as velocity increases.

ny32182
May 16, 2011, 12:20 PM
My current match load is 4.8gr HS6, standard primer, and 147gr Precision Delta FMJ loaded to near max mag length. These run pretty consistently in the upper 800's for me out of my G34. Honestly I'm not dissappointed in any aspect of its performance right now.

However I've been told HS6 is too slow; I've done some very limited experimenting with Unique so far... can't say I've been impressed. I had unnacceptably wide variations in velocity (average with 3.8gr was 903fps, but with a very wide ES) and I'm guessing it may not meter so well with the larger flakes. I still need to take the load down some though and see if I get better performance.

I have a pound of Titegroup on the way as well and plan to give it a try. I know a few people who use about 3.2gr of this with 147 FMJs for their match load.

Red Cent
May 16, 2011, 12:56 PM
Who has tried the "tried and tested" IDPA load of a 147gr over 3.1 Clays? Common suggestion 'round here.

RhinoDefense
May 16, 2011, 02:36 PM
4.0gr WSF @ 1.125 OAL for FMJ or RN.

Drop to 1.10 OAL and 3.9gr for JHP.

ETA: Power Factor 132.

Most factory 9mm Luger is 135-140 PF. Most shooters, even professional competitors cannot tell the difference between 130 PF and 135 PF ammo.

Red Cent
May 16, 2011, 04:46 PM
"HS-6 is a fine spherical propellant that has wide application in pistol and shotshell. In pistol, 9mm, 38 Super, 40 S&W and 10mm Auto are some of the cartridges where HS-6 provides top performance. In shotshell HS-6 yields excellent heavy field loadings in 10 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga., and even the efficient and effective 28 ga. HS-6 is truly an outstanding spherical propellant. HS-6 is identical to Winchester's discontinued 540."

HS6 is slower than Unique.

Power Pistol is rated 39 on the burn rate chart. HS6 is 41. Not much difference.

Would you guys please post velocity so we can calculate power factors?

ny32182
May 16, 2011, 05:11 PM
HS-6 is not what I would call "spherical"; not sure where they got that. It looks like small flakes to me. I've run it through a Uniflow, and a Dillon 650 measure with good consistent results.

My velocity with 4.8gr averages around 870-880 from the G34.

Clark
May 16, 2011, 05:36 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

When Alliant and Speer publish 5 gr Power Pistol 147 gr as a max load, I can't help but think how many times I have shot 11 gr Power Pistol 158 gr 1.169" in a little Kel-Tec P11. Memorable, because the recoil from the more than double load really hurts.

There are no 9mm slide mass - recoil spring force combinations available that could take that load. I have been getting my hand slammed. We could imagine a gun, with 3 pound slide and 50 pound recoil spring, that could take that 9mm load. The 3 pound slide would accelerate forward slow enough for stock magazine spring and trigger reset springs to work.

RhinoDefense
May 17, 2011, 01:29 AM
Edited my post #32 to reflect power factor.

HS6 is a flattened spherical powder. They make it round first, then smoosh it flatter. They call it spherical because Olin Corp (who makes Winchester brand ammo) has a trademark on "ball powder". HS6 is the same as W540 which is known in commercial circles as SMP540 made by St Marks Powder Company.

Red Cent
May 17, 2011, 04:31 PM
"smoosh it flatter". Must be one of those hi-tech terms.:cool:

Owen
May 17, 2011, 04:52 PM
red, it totally is. its right before "thingy" in the tech dictionary

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